Transcription
By the way, gold can go down further than this. Don't get me wrong. As we talked about in Vancouver, the beginning of the year when everybody was too euphoric, was too fast, too high. Of course, the CME isn't going to give up easily. Of course, London's not going to give up easily. Of course, the narrative isn't going to die easily. But I'm not here to say that gold only goes up the right from here either, but I am here to say with complete conviction from all of the things I see, it's going to go much, much higher than the few years.
Special coverage from the Rule Symposium 2026 in Boca Raton, Florida is brought to you by First Majestic Silver. There's no substitute for silver. Hello and welcome back to the Rule Symposium 2026. Welcome back to Soore Financial. Really appreciate you joining us here. We have lots to discuss. What is happening to gold? We're recording this on July 8th, Wednesday. Theou has just been torn up and gold barely reacted. I've invited a fantastic guest here on at the conference to to talk about all of this. His name is Matthew Peeper. Matthew, I'm really excited to have you here. It's always great to see you. Thanks so much for joining us.
>> No, Kai, as we were joking before, we you and I met earlier in the year in Vancouver and then halfway to this point in Frankfurt and now we're in Florida and we've been watching this gold move together. Um, but it's great to be here. Good to talk to you.
>> Yeah, gold has been interesting. Like, it's been fascinating this year. Just the price chart itself. We moved up to 5600. We're dropped below 4,000. Now we're just barely hovering above 4,000. And I'm sure you're getting asked left, right, and center here at the conference, Matthew? What is happening with the gold price? Like, why is it so volatile, what is making the price move right now?
>> No, listen, um, that's the question everyone's asking whether they're here or somewhere else. I think what's unique about this conference is a lot of pretty sophisticated investors in the gold equity space or the gold space. So, they're somewhat familiar with volatility and price action in general. So, a little bit more rational than emotional. That said, it's hard not to get emotional when you go from 56 to 41. uh what we talk about what they tend to know is first of all there's a lot of reasons unique to 2026 but again nothing in a bare market or a bull market moves in a straight line we're clearly in a secular bull market in the mels we can talk why and you can see some of the forces against gold since we met in Frankfurt or even in Vancouver but people know here that look they remember the 70s they saw gold have 28 all-time highs but five periods of 20% draw downs in the same 10 years and they saw gold go halfway to the biggest run in its history and cut in half in 74 to 76 and then go up 8x. So they put it into that kind of perspective. I think to get to this year and today July of 2026, it's an even more compelling bull case. And I think many understand these these gold guys, they're they're pushing their narrative. But no, I think those of us who understand the bigger picture at 30,000 ft, the unique debt currency rate and bond context that we're in in 2026, this is just gold reloading. If anything, it's repricing in my way tinfoil hated deliberately. If I were at the CME or the ComX or the LBMA, I would want to do what they did in January, which is raise margins, push the price down, and reload my bullets at a cheaper price. I really believe that that's separate and apart from the other forces, the force selling by countries like Turkey or Saudi Arabia, the force selling by triple levered ETF tourists in the space, or the force selling by the the the shadow banks, the hedge funds early in the year because when they saw those signals, it was a sell-off. But it was a fantastic opportunity for central banks pre-Iran to stack gold at a cheaper price which if I were a nefarious player in the inter world was exactly what I would do cuz they do see like China like the bricks like most of the central banks the longer direction of gold as a net settlement asset as better collateral to a US treasury or any paper currency. That is no longer a gold bug argument. That is the discussion in the rates market in the credit market in the currency market. So this is beyond just gold to good investment for wealth preservation which of course it is or gold at spot is certainly higher than cost of production for miners. It's way beyond that. It is a sea change in how the world sees collateral. And that I think is what's being missing in the price action headlines which are meant to distract or entice or click. But the real change is much more clever and it's a it's a sea change in in global collateral.
>> Are we still in the I told you so phase? is like, you know, we were dancing a little bit, you know, $5,600 gold or are we already back in the eating crow phase here?
>> Look, remember just a couple years ago, gold was half this price. It's gone up 128% in 5 years. I think you should be entertained, but it's not an I told you so smug, but it's also not humble pie because gold is moving secularly in a direction that to me is very obvious. Not selling my book, very obvious. I don't think it's ever good to be smug. I don't think it's ever good to lose conviction if you have it for the right reasons. uh our conviction is is 10 20 years out 10 20 years ago that doesn't mean we're not interested in price even in paper currencies but again when you understand the magic trick of focusing on price and fiat dollars or currencies and you look at the real what's happening with the hidden hand which is the obvious 10 11 last quarters over 200 tons of central bank gold standing uh gold stacking since we weaponized the dollar 2022 5x central bank gold stacking You and I have talked about adnauseium. I'm no fan of central banks. I don't like them. Can't beat them. Can't join them. But I watch what they do, not what they say. And they are picking up gold for a reason. We don't know what's coming off the comx or where it's going. I think it's going to JP Morgan and some of the Fed banks. And it's going overseas. It's our number one export gold because the world wants physical, not paper claims. And China and Hong Kong are creating a settlement system as we speak that's going to get rid of the CME like paper game in New York and London. and they're going to base it on physical, which is why Hong Kong's vault just increased by 10x because China's very patient playing the long game. They are moving the direction of gold from west to east and it's going to be more fairly priced going forward than we saw in London or New York. And I think that's a fantastic misunderstood hidden move in addition to the collateral moves, in addition to the currency moves that is a lot more boring than price action this month, this year and headlines about the war of course, but it's a very hidden subtle but absolutely essential watershed this year.
>> Latiger said in your chair yesterday and we we talked about or he he mentioned that there might be a secret buyer for for gold cuz whenever it dips below 4,000, volume comes in and it's being bought up. Do you have any more insights on that? Like if you were to speculate like who could be that that mystery buyer, who could be that whale?
>> I'll tell you who I think it was in January and February was JP Morgan. They're not stupid. I think it's some sovereign wealth funds and just some central banks. But because it's such an export, I know it's not just staying in New York in the vaults and it's not just going to city Morgan JP Morgan Stanley or Goldman. Um look, we're all all the partners at at Von Garretts are former bankers many years at big banks. We're not anti-banker per se, but we know how the sausage is made. They were never big fans of gold for a lot of reasons. You can't profit off it. You can't fee it. You can't leverage it. But now, even Morgan Stanley, as we knew last year, recognizes for sharp razors, draw downs and monetization that they had to have a 20% allocation. They see the longerterm play. JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs have bigger bigger price tech targets for gold than I have for this year despite the volatility. But I think they have to be realistic now in 2026, which they couldn't be years ago. I think some of the US big banks are buying it. I think they're taking it out of the warehouses in New York and keeping it on their balance sheet, but they don't have to report that yet because they can't help but see the debasement trade. Uh it doesn't mean the end of the dollar. It's a repricing. The DXY isn't ripping as it should with 75 basis points and rates are up, but the Fed not raising rates. The dollar is just slowly losing absolute purchasing power. I'm relatively agnostic what it does versus the the euro or the yen, but I'm saying that's the story. strong dollar, higher yields. But they they can say that for now. Strong dollar, higher yields, lower gold. Yields really are negative, not positive. We get into that. But the real direction they see is trust. That hard thing to measure in US IUS and paper money is quantifiably changing, which is evidenced by the gold moves. And I think to answer your question, I think it's central banks. Even Turkey, which had to swap its gold to buy oil during the war, got it back. They didn't want their US treasuries back. They wanted their gold. They didn't sell, they swapped through Zurich. So these are just hidden boring indicators that those who understandably don't track the markets every day because they're dentists, brick layers, teachers, professors, doctors, whatever they're doing, they're interested in gold, but they can't see the subtle moves. They can't see the liquidity that Wars is putting in the markets. They can't see the gold movements east. We do. We have to. That's not selling our book. This is beyond the gold camp now. What's happening with gold? I think it's really important to understand that.
If if we look at the daily moves in gold, what is really pulling on the price right now in either direction? Like if you look at it, is it is it just the Fed interest rate talk? Is it the rate hikes that are pushing pressure on or is there more to it? Like what else is involved?
>> It's a huge question to answer, but I think the simple fact is yeah, the price action, the signals, the algo traders, the hedge funds, the swaps. I think it's more than just headlines about more conflict. I think it is confusion about what is happening at the ComX, the CME in London with the deliveries. What will they be able to do to make it a sell only exchange or reduce paper claims? Is there a new repricing coming in 2026 in the east? How will we prepare ourselves? I think right now they want a narrative that is somewhat headwind narrative to keep the gold price down while they collect it and then they have to they have to position themselves. Who's going to be the new referee in this soccer pitch? If it's not New York and London, if it's going towards the East, how are we going to prepare for that? I think the fact that Judy Shelton is talking about a goldback treasury is more than just optics whether it happens or not. It's a recognition that gold plays a more powerful role as collateral and trust and they're watching the East beat us at the game to catch up. We have to get some of those bullets back. We have to keep the price narrative down. We can use the positive real yields as a headwind story when in fact when we look at real inflation yields are incredibly negative, not positive. That's a way to inflate our way out of debt. It is. But that's not a headline. That's not what the market wants to tell you. It's what we all know. But I think the this this combination of the the moving chest pieces east to west, west to east actually. I think the bank's reloading. I think the narrative of hawkish warish and a strong dollar and positive real yields. All of that is affecting the gold price now. But it's it's a false narrative. That's not conspiracy theory. It's the narrative I would present to reload when I need to reload. And I think that's what's happening.
>> Yeah. Makes sense. It's interesting to see that gold price is somewhat numb to geopolitical news as well. Like this morning like we've seen you've been torn up. It's like okay now we're down 50 bucks right gold can go down further than this don't get me wrong as we talked about in Vancouver the beginning of the year when everybody was too euphoric was too fast too high of course the CME isn't going to give up easily. Of course London's not going to give up easily. Of course the narrative isn't going to die easily. But I'm not here to say that gold only goes up the right from here either. But I am here to say with complete conviction from all of the things I see, it's going to go much much higher over the few years. Again, priced in dollars, euros, Swiss Franks, whatever. Kind of silly, but this is the very first chapters of a secular bull market. And if you're an investor for the right reasons, I don't look at the daily price, but there's no doubt. It's interesting the mo the memo of understanding torn up. Gold barely does a hiccup. Uh but gold can be a very valuable liquid asset in times of uh oh and it if we have a mean reversion in this immortal S&P, gold could sell off significantly then too. Uh but again for us and our clients we're just looking at bonds and paper currencies and that gives us so much calm in this crazy storm.
>> Well, gold is still fulfilling its role. It's provider the the last provider of liquidity.
>> Absolutely.
>> Is like the last crusader a little bit, right? Like
>> it's the last honest player on the team.
>> Yeah. Is like the last store of value. Like why did Turkey, you know, sell 118 tons of gold to to shore up its reserves? So it's still the properties of gold haven't changed, have they?
>> Not at all.
>> Not at all. Not at all. One thing I've been that's why I've been looking here at my notes is like Eric Sprat said something interesting. I just want to investigate a little bit with you as well. He said there will be a shortage of gold. And he he gave some numbers, but overall we don't produce enough. China soaking it all up,
>> right?
>> Do you see actually like a a gold squeeze? Like we've talked about the silver squeeze before and I don't want to get euphoric or anything about it. I'm just looking at the supply and demand. Yeah.
>> Um, is that a possibility? A gold squeeze?
>> Think about it. It was a great point. I'm I'm curious to read it and see what he said. But look, we got 8 billion ounces above ground gold in the world. 7 billion of that is held by big institutional players, central banks, sovereign wealth funds, commercial banks. Maybe 500 million to a billion ounces are freely traded in the world. It doesn't take I mean, supply and demand still matters. Notwithstanding all the trickery in London and New York for decades since we went off the gold standard. Adding futures contracts to gold was a deliberate kissinger play in the 70s. We all know that. We've all read the books. China knows it too. And and supply and demand will eventually raise its beautiful head again. Natural price discovery based on physical trades. And given the stock to flow in the natural scarcity of this metal and given the growing difficult to measure distrust in paper currencies and IUS with yields spiking at you know decade highs across all the big countries all of this is a way of saying eventually when natural supply and demand which China is now trying to make more real it's a beautiful moment of higher and higher demand higher and higher distrust and the same supply of the 116 million ounces mined per year. So it's way past the Bitcoin debate now. It is a real honest with real property metal whose supply isn't going to increase from a meteor coming from the moon and whose demand from the biggest players on earth from the BIS to the Bank of Japan to the Fed is going to increase. You don't need to be a genius to see the converging forces for gold longer term. And no, it doesn't mean gold only goes to 10,000 next week.
>> Yeah.
>> But again, when my grandmother bought 400 ounces, it was for a few hundred bucks. is worth 2 million today. It's important to keep the larger history in mind. Ray Dalio, Egan Vanreer, myself, you, we all know you need to understand math and history to stay calm in gold, mining, speculation, equities, embedded leverage, fantastic, very different, very different mindset. Respect it, but the spot price still matters from cost of production. So, it's still relevant. But for boring guys like us who just don't trust paper currencies,
>> uh this is a fantastic time to be buying right now. Fantastic time. I was just speaking with uh one of the bullion dealers here across the street said Kai Kai or across the hall here I not across the street um like Kai like our market is the only market when price goes down people don't buy more right
>> they wait for confirmation they wait for higher prices to to see maybe the trend
>> why is that
>> yeah you know I think I would take it I think in every asset class hard assets risk assets even real estate I always see people buying tops and selling lows always.
>> We would like to think that that would be different for those who understand history and math. We have some very sophisticated clients coming not all Swiss but B and they are buying at lows. They do have that massive conviction. But even among the most sophisticated class, there's a nervousness, there's the psychology. Rick Rule calls it irrational versus rational.
>> But I think the most rational investors in the space are making the calls to buy now. If anything, they're waiting for it to go a little lower. And that again is a mug's game. But if I'm looking 10 20 years old, if I'm thinking my grandkids, like my grandmother thought of me, I really don't worry about whether it's at I know this sounds smug. Whether it's at 51 or 41 is irrelevant when it's I see it at 15, 17, 20. And I see I'm not going to measure that in a paper currency anyway. How many barrels of oil? How many pieces of real estate? How many real things can I buy? Not measuring in a currency that I've lost faith in a long time ago.
>> Is that reflected here in sentiment as well? Like when you talk to people like have they thrown in the towel? It doesn't seem like it. Of course, we're in our bubble.
>> We're in a bubble here, right? So, we're in a bubble, but I'm just curious like what you're picking up. I have yet to hear from anybody that they're negative about what we're
>> honestly. I've talked to people from Hungary, from Mexico, from Switzerland, from Dubai, uh from France, from the UK, from Australia.
>> They're all pretty comfortable with this right now and they're they're not panicking. In fact, they're here because they see ma especially in the equity side, massive valuation right now because it's been following the tape. really good cash flowing companies with the same fundamentals are 40% off right now. So, and they're ready for volatility. When it comes to physical gold as a wealth preservation asset, we're seeing the same things. Smart money, comfortable money who gets this math. They're buying and if anything, they're maybe hoping it goes on sale a little bit more right now. But again, uh I talked to Ronnie Sturfla, you we all know the longer story here, but we like the clients had to be patient through these irrational moments. Luckily for most of us, most of our clients, we're preaching the converted now. They're calm. They're calm in the storm.
>> What are you looking for for the rest of the year? You know, we have in the US, I'm just, you know, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you know, new Fed chair.
>> Y,
>> you know, a couple more, you know, maybe even rate hikes. Like, what are you looking for that could direct or give us a bit of direction here?
>> Look, it's the new Fed chair is another classic example of headline price action versus what's happening behind the scenes. He's completely violating the Basel 3 Accords. is going to allow capital reserves to be remonetized, relevantly hawkish member and and Warish who's supposedly hawkish has actually just gave more money to the banks than ever before. It's what people can't see whether it's the treasury general account the reverse repo markets guaranteeing big defailed banks treasuries at 100% par rather than 70% loss or whether it's supplement leverage ratios or what these basel 3 regs he just violated mean boring boring boring all I'm saying to listeners is there's billions and trillions of backdoor nonqe QE happening right now he can put a hawkish beak and tape it to his face he like any other central banker has to debase they have to revalue their gold, debase their dollar, and reset into a digital currency issued by a Tether. It can even be Walmart. It can be Visa, Mastercard, or now Door Dash, this 140 companies that just agreed to a stable coin to absorb treasures. There's all kinds of tricks and faguzzi, fagazi, but the Fed is still liqufying the banks to keep them liquid so they can keep lending into a bubble. And that bubble can last 10 more minutes or 10 more months. It's insane. We are so hyper financialized. Our equities market is two and a half times our GDP. We can't afford a recession or a mean reversion because we can never repair it with our Fed. We can't without killing the currency. So we are living in a very fragile time. And to answer your question, it's Dickinsonian. It could be the worst of times or the best of times. It all depends on when this massive overvalued by every metric liquidity driven nonsense blows this S&P or we just nationalize it at the expense of our currency. And none of us can predict that or what happens when another memo of understanding gets torn up or some other headline. When you and I met in in Vancouver, did we know we kind of thought there could be problems in Iran? Did we know there'd be a super silver Friday 3 days later? We're we're little pawns in the machine. We just got to be patient pawns.
>> Exactly. We can just track and discuss it of course, but it's like I'm just trying to figure out like plumbing wise like you you just touched on stable coins.
>> Keep liquidity, create the new oil and stable coins, absorb some of those unloved treasuries. If they can sustain that and keep the narrative positive, it's risk on because the markets are fed driven. They have nothing to do with supply and demand. The days of Benjamin Graham are gone. Jeremy Granthm, he knows this. Gunlack, he knows this. It is not a normal market anymore. I mean, look at SpaceX at 100 times earnings. Nobody cares. Look at the IPOs, nobody cares. So is until something hurts us or until we have a real liquidity vent where we we just can't do it and we have to admit to QEQE. This this nonsense can continue.
>> It really can. And right now the narrative is tech's going to save us even though they're a little overvalued. You know, Wars may be hawkish, but what's another rate hike to us because that'll just force QE down the road. The Fed has our back. The Fed is the only back the Fed has is the shareholders to the Fed, the shareholders of the banks and they got to keep liquidity in. We can see deflationary forces, but they're going to keep liquidity for the banks until that becomes unsustainable and no one can time it. But I think it's risk on for now in a in a in a market that has lost all rational sense, all valuation. It is Charlie Mccay's the madness of crowds. It is Husman's moment of craziness and no one can time that. I' I've got to quote something here. I got to find it real quick because I saw it this morning. Bloomberg sent it out and I hope I didn't delete it. Uh where is it? It was um I think it was in the daily briefing of Bloomberg this morning and uh Nvidia is now cheaper than Hershey.
>> Yeah,
>> cuz like Nvidia came down price-wise and now it's cheaper than Hershey on a valuation basis. Like how do you wrap your head around that?
>> Well, think of think of companies that have actual pricing power. They can do whatever they want. They're still going to be buyers.
>> Chocolate. That's more addictive than cocaine. Literally. Chocolate, Pepsi, Coke. These companies have pricing power. The sin stocks. Yeah. The beverages.
>> Uh, Coke, you know, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, they have pricing power. Healthcare, defense has pricing power. And Nvidia is is, as Jeremy Grant said, it's like it's it's selling shovels in a gold rush during the the the tech boom. But they can be, you know, winners today and losers tomorrow. But those boring things like chocolate and stable free cash flowing price buying stocks, they're going to be winners no matter what. Defensive stocks are going to be winners. That's that's getting into the markets. It's also important to when you look at this market since the S&P's peak and Q4 of 21, stock market's up 60% today, but in in gold terms priced in gold, it's down 40%. So again, it's what are you measuring these returns in? This is where you got to come back to earth. If you're measuring your wealth in paper currencies in your 401k or in your portfolio up 60% since 21,
>> but in gold terms it's down 40. Think about that. Just think about that. What is real money? And the system and international system, not just you and I, is rethinking what is money. And that's why gold as collateral is way beyond just gold as a wealth preservation asset. It is part of a systemic change that we're living in right now.
>> Like I feel like we're asking a question that you've already answered three times today. is is really like
>> what do you want the investor like to take away from your keynote? I know you're speaking here. Um, like the one thing like when they walk out of here, oh god, this was great. Like Matthew just said this, like what's the one thing?
>> The one thing is the title of the the presentation is why gold is a necessity, not a debate.
>> And the one thing I want them to understand is math and history. And when you're measuring your wealth in euros, dollars, Swiss franks, understand how that paper money measures against real money, dishonest versus honest money, historical money versus Johnny come lately money. And believe it or not, our dollar isn't that historical. It's just another system of paper ruination. And it's very familiar to any of us who know history. So I want them to take away, you can very proud to work hard and earn a living, whether it's in the markets or something else, and measuring your money in a checking account, but value that checking account and that money against real money and see how it plays out.
>> And you know, look, uh, over the last 25 years, the dollar has lost a lot versus gold. It's just empirical. Just look at that. Since 1971, it's lost 99%. This isn't a gold bug meme. It is how do you understand the way you measure me wealth? It's not a gold bug case anymore. It's that simple. And yet, there's a lot behind it. But that's what I want to take away.
>> Has gold gone mainstream though?
>> Never. Not yet. There's a not because people are stupid. It's it's deliberately been ignored for decades. In the industry I come from, no one wanted you weren't allowed to talk about it. Uh it's never taught in the schools. It is the It is the anti-hero for the dollar. So of course it's not going to be in the pledge of allegiance. Never. It is an article one section 8 of our constitution though because Thomas Jefferson said this. He knew this. And you know Andrew Jackson said in the mid 1800s central bank will ruin our money. He said it will be the prostitution of our government at the expense of the many for the benefit of the few. And that's exactly where we are right now. Worst wealth inequality in our history. I'm a capitalist all day long. We have feudalism. 90% of the wealth, the top 10 percent own more than the bottom 90%. That's not capitalism. That's a problem. And I'm part of that system and it's a problem. It's not good for us either. That's wrong.
>> Absolutely. Maybe the World Gold Council needs to hire Taylor Swift instead of Elton John to get the message out.
>> Maybe so. That would make a difference.
>> Sadly, that would she has more power than we do.
>> 100%. Fantastic. Matthew, wonderful conversation. Time just flew by. Where can our audience find more of your work?
>> As always, vanards.go or V is in Victor, G is in George. Gold. much easier to remember. Uh all the articles, interviews like this will be on there, all our discussions. We're a very uh unique shop for high net worth, but anyone can come and look at how we look at gold and understand not just why, but how to own it. And that's all for free.
>> Fantastic. Awesome. Matthew, really appreciate your time. Thanks so much for stopping by. And of course, everybody else, thank you so much for tuning in to Soore Financially here from the floor of the Rule Symposium in Boca Raton, Florida. If you enjoyed this conversation, do us a favor. Hit that like button, hit that subscribe button, leave a comment down below. It tremendously helps out with the algorithm. Of course, I do want to hear what you think about this conversation. Did it help you? Did it reinforce the thesis? Or is it complete nonsense what we're talking about here? I'm really curious. Put that down below. Thank you so much for tuning in and of course, stay positive. Take care.