Transcription
I'm a Christian, but I'm not like any like denomination really. So, I wanted to ask cuz the reason I'm not like I don't say I'm a Catholic is cuz I've heard I don't know if it's true, but my impression is the Catholics kind of pray to Mary.
>> No way. You're shocked about that?
>> No. Well, I want to know what you think about that like.
>> So. So, what's wrong and you're drinking water at the same time? Yo, Rocky. So, not only Catholics pray to Mary, Orthodox pray to Mary, Eastern Orthodox pray to Orthodox. Certain Church of Christ certain Church of these pray to Mary. The early Christians pray to Mary. So, they're all wrong and you guys got it right?
>> I mean, I don't know cuz the way I thought about it was that I just pray to God directly and like I thought that any other
>> So, do you ask your priest to pray for you? You Do you ask anyone to pray for you?
>> I mean, yeah, I ask like my family Just cuz I trust them and I know that they have a good relationship with God, too.
>> Oh, so you mean those who are in heaven are perfected and sinless they have a worse relationship with God?
>> Mhm. [clears throat] Yeah, I guess. So, you ask Mary to pray for you basically?
>> That's what praying to Mary is, ask her to pray for you. Okay, so notice again when I ask someone to pray for me because see this is where people get confused. The term pray can mean to invoke and request. This is where people get hung up because of modern English.
>> Mhm.
>> If you look at the usage of the term pray you'll see that pray means to make a request, to ask. It's not always "Oh, I love you. You're my God and I" No, no, no.
>> Mhm.
>> Pray can mean request. Make a request, to ask. So, when a Catholic Orthodox prays to Mary or Paul, what they're doing is making request of them to help them by their prayers and intercession.
>> Mhm.
>> Now, we do that with people on Earth. The only debate is can do it in heaven? That's the debate. And if you read the Bible and you go to the series I did, I did a lot of series showing from the Bible they're alive in heaven, they're perfected in heaven, they're sinless in heaven, their love is perfect, and they have church in heaven, and they're praying for people on Earth. I gave verse after verse from the Bible. I'll show you the list. Right [clears throat] here. So, yeah, this is I too had a misunderstanding. I changed my position. So, when I say, "Hey, why do you pray to Mary? Why do you pray to your your pastor?" I don't pray to him. Yes, you do. When you ask your pastor to pray for you, that is what prayer is, to make a request.
>> Mhm.
>> All right.
>> Yeah, cuz I was thinking that prayer was like worship. Cuz one thing I looked at a lot is when you talk about like Hebrews, and Hebrews when the father prays to the son. I thought it's like cuz, you know, I see prayer as worship, so I didn't want to like
>> Worship, and this is part of my discussion. I'm glad you brought up, man, cuz Trent Horn just, poor guy, took some heat because he says that, "Yeah, Catholics worship Mary in a sense, depending what you mean." You know the word worship comes from the word worth ship.
>> Mhm.
>> Worth ship meaning worship means to acknowledge someone's worth.
>> Mhm.
>> Like when you praise someone for their exploits, like I praised Bruce Lee. Man, by praising Bruce Lee, did you know that's a form of worship?
>> I guess so, in a way, yeah.
>> Yeah, because what does the word worship mean? And Trent does an excellent job of documenting and he had to respond to his naysayers. The word wor- worship comes from worth ship. Mhm. Worth. What is your worth? Do you have worth? And do I acknowledge that worth?
>> Mhm.
>> So, when Catholics, Orthodox worship Mary, they're not worshipping her as God. They're acknowledging her her for the worth she has given to her by Christ.
>> Mhm.
>> Oh, here you go. Communion of Saints, right here. So, I'm glad you asked me that question because I wanted to mention it cuz poor Trenhorn got attacked for something that was so obviously clear, but you got haters. So, here a private chat I sent to you.
>> All right.
>> All right. Now, let me show you the definition of worship. And even in marital vows it says Let me find it for you. With this ring, I thee wed and with my body I worship thee.
>> Mhm.
>> That's what you tell your spouse. So, you worship your spouse with your body?
>> I mean, that's that's how I interpret it.
>> Here, let's see what it means. Worth-ship. Let's see the etymology. Here you go. I just did see the greatest scholar who ever lived, Sheikh Google. Let me go full screen. It says, "What does the word worship mean?" It comes from worth-ship.
>> Mhm.
>> The word worship comes from Old English word worth-ship and it literally means to give something worth. That's all it is. So, when you worship, what you're saying is you're acknowledging the worth of that thing. Doesn't mean you're worshipping as God. I'm going to show you from the Bible. Okay? Here. Marriage vows, with my body I thee worship. There you go. See right there? The phrase with my body I thee worship and older form of marriage vows typically found in the Book of Common Prayer. Book of Common Prayer, from last time I checked is that isn't that Lutheran? But don't don't quote me there. Yeah, it's Anglican, actually.
>> Mhm.
>> Anglican Book of Common Prayer. So, when you take your vows, you say with my body I thee worship. So, are you worshipping your wife as a goddess?
>> I mean, not as a goddess, but
>> But you worship what?
>> Recognizing her worth, I guess, right?
>> Oh, see, you and you I knew you sounded intelligent, Rocky. Now watch. Let me show you some stuff, bro. You ready? So now right here because language has evolved and changed
>> Right.
>> we we think You prayed to Mary. Oh, you worshiper, you pagan.
>> [laughter]
>> But I want you to see this, brother. Okay. First Chronicles 29:20 You guys enjoying the session as far as much as I'm enjoying it? Boss State Mormon, I'm going to come to you next. Don't worry about it, handsome. You handsome beast, you. All right. Rochard, First Chronicles 29:20. And David said to all the congregation Now bless the Lord your God, and all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers bowed down their heads. Now watch, when they bowed to the ground worship the Lord and the king.
>> Mhm.
>> They worshiped God and David?
>> Mhm. Okay, so the king's talking about David, yeah?
>> Yeah, he's the king. He's the one. [clears throat] So they didn't just worship God, they bowed down to the ground to worship God and the king, right?
>> Mhm.
>> So are they committing idolatry?
>> I mean, I guess not.
>> But they can't because the God would have punished David and the people, right?
>> Mhm. Yeah.
>> Okay, let's go to First Kings 2:19-20. Now Bathsheba is the mother of Solomon. She's the one who committed adultery, got pregnant and was complicit with David murdering her husband to cover it up. She's the mother of Solomon. Solomon's the king, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Then Bathsheba came to King Solomon to to him to speak to him for Adonias Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her and bowed himself unto her and sat down on his throne and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother. She sat on his right hand. So, my question to you is Solomon bowing down to his mother the queen Jesus is the son of David, which means his mother would be the queen.
>> Mhm.
>> And yet Solomon bows down to this woman who was a wicked adulteress whom God forgave and gave her a throne to sit on. Why would it be blasphemous idolatrous that we acknowledge the perfect Mary who gave Jesus the flesh that made him a son of David, the flesh used to save us, as the queen mother and we honor her and reverence her? How much more does she deserve it?
>> Yeah. No, yeah, I hear it. Cuz now that I'm thinking about it, too, like cuz I know it says that Jesus came to serve as well.
>> Yeah.
>> I don't want to say that's like a form of worship, but if worship is like just honoring someone.
>> Yes, no, worship is service.
>> that's what you're getting at, I guess.
>> No, brother, you're right. One of the words used for the veneration of the saints, you hit it. In Catholic terminology, you have what's called latria. That's Latin. In Greek, it's latrevo. That's the worship given to God cuz he says give latrevo to God alone. But then you have dulia. And the Greek is douleuo. That's the word for service.
>> Mhm.
>> We show reverence and honor by serving one another. So yes, in that sense, if Jesus serves us, that is, quote-unquote, an act of worship, right? But who would say that Jesus is committing idolatry by serving us and therefore exalting us? No, that's not idolatry.
>> Yeah.
>> Now watch this, though. Now watch here. What is Jesus going to make the Jews, who are not really Jews, whose synagogues belong to Satan, what is he going to make them do to the church that he loves? Look, behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not, but do lie. Behold, I'll make them come and worship before thy feet and know that I have loved thee. Here it says adore, but it's worship. Okay. So, these Jews will be forced to bow before the feet of the Christians as a sign that Jesus loves the church whom these Jews were persecuting. Is Jesus committing idolatry?
>> No.
>> So, what's the problem, brother?
>> Yeah, I guess so cuz I think when I was thinking of prayer, I was thinking of like worship in the sense that like recognizing as God cuz you know, I didn't think of worship in any other way really, but
>> Yeah, because our definition is narrow. So, I'm going to give you two articles I wrote on this.
>> Mhm.
>> I show in these articles, guys, the very words for worship of God is used for humans where they gave that worship to humans with God's approval. So, if you go in the private chat, I sent you the link.
>> Yeah.
>> So, notice the same words used in the Bible for the worship given to God is used for the veneration and honor given to humans with God's approval.
>> Mhm.
>> This is part one right here. So, I've covered all bases here. And you'll see it where even David bows down in worship of Saul, an evil wicked sinner who wanted to kill him. And here's part two. So, here's a saying that I heard long ago. Anyone can read the Bible. And when you read it without understanding, yeah, Protestantism makes sense. But when you read the Bible with understanding, you realize you can't stay Protestant. So, your only choice is you're either going to go to the Catholic Church or the Oriental or Eastern Orthodox Churches. Is there That's it. You'll say, man, they had it right when you understand it. See, when I read the Protestant Bible, right? I stay Protestant. But the more I studied, the more I understood, the more I saw God's promises, the more I looked at the church, I said, I can't stay here anymore. And don't let these other Protestants tell you otherwise. You can't.
>> Right. So, the What is it What was the main difference between the Protestant and the Catholic Church then that you found? Cuz I'm not too educated on like the different denominations, to be honest.
>> Too many differences between Protestantism and the Catholic Church, meaning the Catholic Church, in agreement with the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Syrian Church, they taught infant baptism. Now, some Protestants teach that, but many don't. So, here number notice, Catholic Church, there is no debate on infant baptism. And when you look at the other churches that are ancient, meaning that they started with the apostles at the same time the Catholic Church, but then they split, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Syrian Church, Catholic, no debate. They all agree, infant baptism. And Protestantism, you can get five Protestants and they'll fight each other over that. Lutherans, Presbyterians, infant baptism, yes. Baptist, Church of Christ, no. Second thing that I found in Catholicism, that there are segments of Protestantism that have a similar view, but it's not identical, but this is a view held by all Catholics, even the different brand because in Catholicism, you have different branches. You have the Eastern Catholic right, Byzantine Catholic right, the traditional Latin Mass. No, is it Novus Ordo? But, all agree, the bread and the cup become the flesh and blood of Christ. Now, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Syrian Church, they agree. All of them agree that the bread and cup, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, become the body and blood of Christ. Protestantism, I'll ask a Lutheran, they'll say, "Yeah, this is now the body and blood of Christ." Cuz the body and blood of Christ is joined to it. Anglicans will agree. Other Protestants will say, "No." Thirdly, does water baptism make you alive spiritually and unite you to Christ? Cuz that's the act that the spirit comes on you, unites you to Christ. Catholics, yes. Eastern Orthodox, yes. Syrian Church of the East, yes. Oriental Orthodox, yes. Lutherans, yes. Church of Christ, yes. Others, no. If I ask, "Are the saints alive and perfected and are praying for us and we can ask them to pray?" Catholic, yes. Eastern Orthodox, yes. Oriental Orthodox, yes. Syrian Church, yes. Protestantism, some will say yes, some will say no. So, when I look and but now put that aside. When I look at the early church to see if Catholics or Protestants or these seconds Protestants that disagree with Catholics, which one of them right? You read the Church of the first 100 years and I'm not lying to you. All of them said water baptism saves you.
>> [clears throat]
>> And baptizing infants and children started very early and became the unanimous teaching. All of them said the bread and type becomes the body and blood of Christ. All of them said the saints are alive, perfected, they pray for us, we can ask them to pray. All of them said and by the way, another thing. You ask the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Syrian Church of the East, Oriental Orthodox, Mary, perpetual virgin? Yes. Mary kept pure from sin? Yes. If I ask modern Protestants, they reject it, but I go to Martin Luther, Mary was a virgin. I go to Martin Luther, she was kept pure. I go to Martin Luther, she's a glorious treasure and gem of the church. I go to Francis Turretin, a reformer, Mary had no children. So, even with Protestantism when I go to their founders, Martin Luther, Francis Turretin, and the likes, they all say Mary had no children. Anyone who tries to quote the Bible to show she had shows their ignorant and stupid. They don't know the Bible. In fact, Lord willing, we're doing a session where I'm going to show John Calvin says that James White is stupid. Because John Calvin says, "Anyone who uses Matthew 1:25 or other passages to show that Mary had children, that just shows they're ignorant, they're stupid, they're like Helvidius, and they just want to argue for argument's sake. Hence, James White."
>> Yeah, fair. Cuz I mean
>> That's good, brother.
>> Yeah, cuz I mean, for me, like, the way I think, or I've thought about it, and the way I was raised is that it's just about understanding Jesus and the Bible as purely as possible. But I guess you're saying that ca- Catholics have the best understanding of it, so that's why you side with them.
>> All the ancient churches would have the best understanding. The only problem is they split over some issues that if you actually were to listen, they're basically, and this is a fact, saying the same thing with different words. So, I'm not just saying the Catholic Church. I have to be fair to all the other churches. You, if you were to bring in Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic Church, Eastern, you ask them about Christ, "How many persons are Christ?" They'll say one. And these natures, divine human, are they so inseparable that the one person of Christ operates through both natures, and their their union is so inseparable they can't be divided?" They'll all say yes. So, at the end of the day, believe it or not, we're all saying the same thing using different terms, and it's that different terminology that led to the schism, and I'm not exaggerating.
>> Yeah. Yeah, fair. I didn't know that you said it was Protestants that said that Mary didn't have children. Was that what they said?
>> Martin Luther. Not only Martin Luther. Here, Martin Luther, Protestant reformer, Francis Turretin.
>> Cuz I mean, I thought it was clear that in the Bible, like, Jesus had physical siblings. So, how would she not
>> Who told you it's clear? It's also clear that Jesus' father was Joseph. Yeah. I mean So is he is he Jesus' father? Well, I mean, wasn't Joseph the father of Jesus' siblings and then Jesus was conceived without like So that means the siblings were there before Jesus? Uh I'm not sure. I don't even know. That's my point. So when you say you thought it's clear that Jesus had siblings. Okay, it talks about his brothers and sisters. But it also says Joseph is his father. Mhm. Here, John 1:45. Philip findeth Nathanael and saith to him, "We have found him of whom Moses in the law and the prophets did write, Jesus the son of Joseph of Nazareth." Now they thought Joseph was his actual biological father. Mhm. Was he? I mean, I thought what it meant when it described Joseph as his dad was that Joseph was, you know, the man taking care of Jesus as he grew up. you know that means that? Where'd you get it? I'm just I agree with you. Jesus born of a virgin, but how do you know that means that? Just because when it talks about the birth of Jesus it was when Mary was a virgin. So, you know, because a father can be biological like Oh, you got it. or it can mean like someone taking care of it, like an adopted father. Okay, so you got it. You got the fact because Jesus born of a virgin, Joseph can't be his biological father, right? Mhm. So how do you know these brothers and sisters of Christ are from Mary? Um well, I mean, because of the his brothers and sisters, they have to be from the same family, right? Okay, well then Jesus being the son of Joseph means Jesus has to be his biological father. So you went back to that argument. Mhm. Okay, yeah. I mean How do you know Joseph is not the actual biological father of Jesus? I mean, just from context because it, you know What context? Here it says he's a son of Joseph. That's what context of the gospels where it talks about how was conceived.
>> As a virgin, right?
>> Mhm.
>> So then how do you know those brothers and sisters of Christ are from Mary?
>> I mean I don't know if it says anywhere specifically, but
>> Okay, then I don't really know.
>> Okay, so then how do I find the answer? You know how you find the answer? Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, who preserved those books for you for 2,000 years? You were not around, right?
>> No.
>> It was early Christians, right?
>> Yeah.
>> But those early Christians told me the brothers and sisters of Christ are not from Mary cuz Mary had no children. The very ones who gave me these books by the grace of the Holy Spirit. They go, she had no children.
>> Mhm.
>> So are they wrong? Because I want you to understand, if you say they're wrong, then how do you trust them that they gave you the right collection of books?
>> Mhm. I didn't know that they said Mary had no other children to me.
>> The unanimous teaching of the church, here you go.
>> Mhm.
>> [clears throat]
>> There. Yep, Protestant. And this is from a Protestant scholar named J.B. Lightfoot who studied the early church and he taught he saw without fail they taught Mary had no children, so they were not the brother sisters from Mary. The only voice you hear objecting was Helvidius, but he's a heretic who comes in the 4th century and he's an Arian.
>> Mhm.
>> Right. Here you go. Protestant scholar because I must spelled it right here. Hold on. So you understand what I showed you? Just like
>> Yeah.
>> the Bible says Jesus, the son of Joseph, but we know Joseph is not his biological father. And if you say, "Well, I know that cuz the Bible tells me he was conceived of the virgin." Well, then when it says, "His brothers and sisters," how do you know those are his brothers and sisters from Mary?
>> I mean, how else would they be his siblings though?
>> How else could Joseph be his father?
>> Well, I mean, you know, by taking care of him, I guess, and being like
>> Also, you mean if Joseph had children and they were raised in the same family, if then Jesus is called the son of Joseph, that means his children also be called his brothers and sisters.
>> Okay, yeah. So, I guess they don't have to be Mary's kids for them to be his siblings. Yeah, okay. All right.
>> You are smart, Rocky Balboa. You You And I sent you the link. You see it?
>> Uh let me see. Yeah, I'm good.
>> So, universal teaching of the church, Mary had no children.
>> Mhm.
>> Mary was a virgin. These children, the earliest view was that Joseph was married previously and these were children from a previous wife. So, just like Joseph would have been his stepfather, these were his stepbrothers and sisters.
>> Okay, yeah. Yeah.
>> Just like if you were married not married. If your father remarries
>> Mhm.
>> and his wife has children and you live with them and you grow up and then people say, "Who are these?" Oh, this is my brother. You're going to say, "Oh, my stepbrother?"
>> Yeah, I guess they're just siblings, isn't it? Like
>> Thank you.
>> Yeah. Yeah, all right. Well, appreciate it. I appreciate the
>> So, you got all your answers, brother?
>> Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate it.
>> Now, go watch the videos on my channel and read the articles and once you start studying early church history, I'm telling you within a year or so, if you're open, you're not going to stay Protestant.
>> Mhm. All right. Well, I appreciate it, man. I'm going to go research.
>> Amen. Save the world until you start studying and you're going to grow.
>> All right. Thank you, man. I appreciate it. God bless, brother.
>> God bless, brother.