Transcription
When we suffer, we suffer because we try to find happiness in something that will never give it to us.
That's exactly right. And that has been true for humanity from the fall. But in this age in which we live, businesses are built on that.
That's right. The more I have, the more pleasure I have, the more I can consume.
Uh, I mean, it goes right down the list, you know, and the happier I am. And in the meantime, we lose who we really are. We lose our own soul.
And maybe another way to look at it is John of the Cross helps us to find our soul. Prayer helps us to find our soul. You know, where is our soul?
Right. Right.
You know, and you know, I'm God loves me. God dwells within me. God dwells in all of creation. You know, and real happiness is in my relationship with Him and trying because we're made for this union with God through love. We're made for this union of love with God, of friendship with God. You could call it intimacy with God. That definitely has its has its profound implications in how I relate to other people and to the world around me.
[Music]
Okay, here we go. This is Let Me Be Frank on the Veritas Catholic Network. I'm Steve Lee, and it is my great pleasure, as always, to introduce Bishop Frank Caggiano.
Steve, good morning.
Hi, Excellency.
Nice to see you as always.
Likewise. Likewise. Yes.
And and smiling and chipper, you look good.
Correct. Even though we had technological problems to start this thing today, but God has provided. God has provided.
Exactly.
So, tell us, we have a great guest. Tell us who it is.
Yes. Thank goodness. So we have, um, we have, we're joined by Father Daniel Ching, who, um, is the provincial of the Washington province of the Discalced Carmelites. Um, who he joined in 1978 and he was ordained with them in 1988. And Father is originally from, uh, Indianapolis. He has a foreign languages degree from Georgetown, a theology degree from Catholic U, and a licentiate from the University of Salamanca. So, um, again, I'm, I feel undereducated here, uh, with you and Father, but, um, that's fine. I'm going to sit and take notes and learn. Um, Father Daniel has done it all with the Discalced Carmelites. He's, he was a novice master for 12 years. Uh, he was on the general council in Rome for six years. And, um, Father has written a book called "Healed by Love: Contemplation as a Path of Healing According to St. John of the Cross." And I recently heard, um, a very famous speaker mention this book, um, during an interview, and I was like, we have to get this book and we have to get Father on the air. So, uh, Father Daniel Ching, thank you so much for joining us here on Let Me Be Frank.
Welcome.
You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you for asking. I was surprised, uh, when you, when I read your email, you know, inviting me to speak on my book.
Wow.
And to meet with Bishop Frank. I was very, I was surprised. Anyway, I'm happy to be with you.
Well, I'm delighted you're here and, and because, uh, what you are, what you've written about and your religious consecration is, is extraordinarily important for the people who are listening to our podcast. So, this is an opportunity for us to hear, um, not just what your book about tells us, but your life. So, I always begin by asking, tell us, to the extent that you're comfortable, your journey to get to where you are now. Your journey of faith.
Okay. Well, my journey of faith is an interesting one, actually. I was really born in a Protestant family, and I became a Catholic when I was 11, on my own. Um, because I went into a Catholic church, probably around 19, what, 1958 perhaps. I was about 8 years old, nine. And, um, there was a Mass going on, and it somehow it touched me. I mean, I was carried into a Nazarene church when I was a baby. But then, uh, and they were all Nazarines in, in my family. I had an uncle who was a Nazarene minister. But anyway, there was something that touched me very much about the, the, that Mass, even though it was in Latin at that time. I didn't understand anything, you know, but there was something going on. And I'll just give the broad strokes here because it gets, we don't get to too much detail. But anyway, then I asked to become a Catholic. There was a great resistance at first, of course. And then,
then in the grade four, I went to Catholic school. We moved to Richmond, Indiana, and I was, went to Catholic school and was baptized in the fifth grade in 1961, December the 10th. And so that began my, my journey in faith. And then in terms of my, um, my religious vocation, I didn't enter until I was 27. Uh, I, I went to school. I worked, went to school. And what drew me to the Carmelites was the Carmelite spirituality. The, the whole theme of prayer. Prayer, you know, Carmel is all about prayer. Prayer and service to the church. And I read the, the biography of St. Teresa, biography of St. Teresa of Avila, uh, and, uh, I was very, very moved by it, even though I didn't understand all of it that she was explaining. And then I read St. Teresa. But actually, I went to school in France for a year, and then I lived right close to Rudubach, you know, Maris Meadow Chapel, and that, and I used to go to Mass there all the time and go to confession there. And, um, and it was then that I, I felt this real call to Carmel, even though I had met the Carmelites in Indianapolis, Indiana, the Carmelite nuns. I knew the Carmelite nuns, but they were all cloistered, and you, I didn't know them personally, I didn't know them, but I knew something about them. And then when I was in France, I had this experience, uh, Rudubach, going back and forth, and, and I began to read St. Teresa as well, you know, the, the life of St. Teresa, the story of a soul, and then again, the "Interior Castle" by St. Teresa. And so that really sparked my interest in the Carmelites. It was really my own desire for prayer and, and, uh, uh, and what, and, and this the teaching of the saints, especially Holy St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross. And so then I finally entered in, in, in 1978.
And, and the rest is history. Your journey to,
and the rest is history.
Leadership.
And I keep, I keep learning.
Yeah. Oh, without a doubt. Absolutely. You know, if, forgive a personal question, but, um, your parents, their reaction, obviously must have been one of quite surprise when you had suggested at a young age you wanted to be Catholic, right?
Oh, they, they were. And, um, and I had relatives that were very much against it. But my mother was, my mother was a real freethinker. And, uh, she said, they kept telling me I would go to hell if I became a Catholic. And my mother said, "Well, you'll go to hell if you keep talking that way."
Did she? Good for her. God bless her.
She said, she said, "He has a right to choose his own religion, and that's not your business." And, um, so even though she didn't practice as much as other relatives, she, she was very spiritual in her own way. But, but she became a Catholic at 75.
Did she?
She finally came to the church when she was 75 years old.
God bless her. Wow.
Yeah. Now she's gone to God. But anyway,
Yep. She's paved the way for us whenever the time comes.
Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Well, that's remarkable.
She died at 93. 93 years old. So.
At 93. Wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
Um, so for, for our typical listener, perhaps myself included, but for our typical listener, when we speak of the Carmelites, I'm not exactly sure that most people understand the history of the Carmelites and now the different branches of the Carmelite family. So could you give us a bit of a primer of the history and,
Sure.
and the Carmelites today, the different forms of them?
Mhm. Well, the, the origin of our, of the Carmelite began in the Holy Land about around about 12, 12, 120 AD. And the first Carmelites probably were crusaders from Europe, probably from France, that area, who had gone to the Holy Land for the Crusades from what we know. And they probably were disillusioned by the experience of the Crusades, and they began to settle together on a place called the Wadi, which is right, it's, it's near Haifa in that area. And they began to live an eremitical life. And then they asked, uh, the patriarch of Jerusalem, uh, to write them a rule, Albert of Jerusalem. And he wrote them a rule, uh, based really upon what they were already living. Very simple rule, a rule, very scriptural, very simple, very eremitical, but also had a communal dimension to it. And then around, I think it was around 1242, they left when the Saracens took over the Holy Land. They left and went back to Europe. And at first, they went back and settled in Europe and, um, they began to live as hermits. Uh, and of course, the Europeans were not accustomed to the type of eremitical expression of life they were living. So they had to make some changes in order to survive. And they began to, to make some changes in the rule, and they became part of the Mendicant movement. They began to help out in parishes and the missions and that, and they kind of came into the Mendicant movement with the Franciscans and the Dominicans. See? Yeah. And so there was a change. There was a, a real change in, in, in the way they were living their life, even though we had the same rule. And we have that deep spirit, we have that eremitical spirit, you know, it's kind of, it's always with us. But the kind of the tension between the ministry and prayer, you know, solitude and ministry, you know.
So that was the, the, that was the order, the order until 1562. Um, St. Teresa of Avila, Teresa of Jesus, uh, Teresa of, um, entered the nuns there. There were the friars, there were the friars, and also there were nuns that, that became part of the Carmelite order. So Teresa of Jesus, Teresa, uh, entered the Order of the Incarnation in Spain, and in, she was there for 27 years, and she went through her own conversion experience, her own transformation experience, and because of that, that she wanted to, she decided to, to make her own foundation. She, and in the beginning, she wasn't going to start a new order, but she wanted, because of her own inner experience, her own conversion experience, and the power, the, the transforming power of prayer in her life, she wanted to return more to the original rule of St. Albert, and she made a foundation in St. Joseph in 1562. Um, and that was the beginning of the, the new branch, at least with the, the, the nuns. And then she had a, a missionary come through, uh, after five years in St. Joseph. And he talked about the situation of all the people in, in the Americas, the, the loss of, he said they're losing their soul. People are losing their souls. They need conversion, you know. And so then she, it, it kind of imbued her with this apostolic spirit, uh, to, you know, to pray for, for the church. And then she met, uh, John of the Cross.
Who was John of St. Matthias at that time. He had entered the, he had entered the first branch of the Carmelites, and he met St. Teresa because he was going through kind of a, um, a crisis in his own life at the time, and he thought he might want to be a Carthusian. And he met her right after his ordination, and she said, "Oh, you don't want to be a Carthusian." She said, "You want to join my group." And she said, "You know, you know, I have everything that you really want." You know.
Very subtle, she was very subtle.
Yeah, very, very subtle. Very subtle. Yes. And so then she founded a community. She, she made it possible, you know, for he and three friars to start a small community in Duruelo, Spain. And then, um, uh, then that began the, the, the friars. Yeah. And so, uh, so then that was the, the, the separated branch, the, the Calced, or the Order of the Ancient Order of Carmel, and the Discalced Carmelite Friars. And it all began with St. Teresa in 1562 when she founded St. Joseph's, even though she had been a Carmelite for 27 years. And,
so the Discalced, the word Discalced means without shoes, is that correct?
Without shoes.
Yeah. Interesting. And why that, why that image, without shoes?
Well, because it used to be a symbol of radicality, gospel radicality.
Ah.
Uh, in, in the 16th century, when you went without shoes, um, it was like a sign that you were a more radical follower of the gospel.
Right.
Although it's interesting, when St. John of the Cross and his early, those three friars that were together, they weren't wearing shoes at first. They were barefoot, and St. Teresa says, "No, you got to put shoes on. You got to put sandals on." She said, "You're too radical."
Oh my. She must have. Well, she was formidable, obviously, in her holiness. She was formidable.
She was very balanced.
Yeah. Exactly. So, exactly. So, so now in the current administration of the Carmelites, you are on the council in Rome. So, is there one group that, that kind of administers all the branches, or does each branch have its own government?
Each branch has its own government.
Own. Is there a federation among all the branches?
Like, is there a time when all the branches would come together for discussion or,
No, I, I don't think we would come together, but we do, we have, we work very closely together.
That's what I thought. And when I was in Rome at, on the definatory, what we call the definatory, the general council, we had regular meetings with the, with the other branch of Carmelites.
Understood. Okay.
We even had seminars together. We had regular meetings together. And,
and in this country, for several years, we had a, in the summer, we had a, um, a formation program together with our friars in, in formation and their friars in formation.
Right. So, you know, it's interesting here at the diocese, over the last couple of years, we were blessed to have two communities come to us. One is O.Carm, right, and the other is the Calced, and they're sisters of both. And one is, has 12 sisters that have come relocated to the diocese. It's a tremendous blessing.
Yes, it is. It's a blessing.
Carmelite spirituality is resurging in the diocese.
Yeah, very good. Very good. I support. Yeah, I do too. Absolutely. It's tremendous. Now, so now you're giving us history and you're giving us background, and this is very important, and I appreciate it. And we're going to get to your book after I ask this next question, and that is, what about here in the United States? I went on your website of the Province of the Most Pure Heart of Mary, Holy Hill, and that whole history. What is all that about that people should know about?
Yeah. Well, Holy Hill was actually, it began in 1858. There was a young woman who was healed, kind of miraculously healed here. There was a, there was a chapel in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and there was a young woman who, who was very ill, and she was healed on the top of this, of this hill. And then they built a chapel. They built a very specific chapel, and pilgrims began to come. Um, originally, there was also a hermit who had lived here in this area. So it was known, kind of a, a very, a special place, you know, of, of, of prayer. And so really the diocese ran, I mean, it kind of developed the shrine. Developed was first, first it was a, a log cabin, then in 1881, they built a church, first church, second church, the cabin, then the, then the, then the second church, and then that, that one then that kind of burned, that burned down. But anyway, the, the, the Archbishop of Milwaukee invited the Carmelites, Discalced Carmelite friars, to come and take over the shrine. And we came here in 1906.
Oh, so it's 120.
We came here in 1906. The, yeah. And we came from Bavaria, Bavaria, Germany, in 1906, the first Carmelites. And then there was a really combination because the, the friars from Spain had also had a house in Washington D.C. uh, from, um, the, from the, um, uh, from Barcelona area, that, that area of Spain, and they had a house in Washington D.C. community, and we really combined at one point, you know, they went down to Oklahoma province. There are three provinces of the Discalced Carmelites. And, um, so we, we really, we combined.
Understood. Wow. Okay. So, it's 100. And how many members are in the province?
Well, presently, we're only 40, 41 solemnly professed, uh, at this, at this time. Although we have, we have 41 in solemn profession, but 27 are over 70.
Wow.
But we have vocations. We have seven postulants at this present time. We have two novices. We have five in temporary vows. And we have four that just made solemn profession last October. Wow.
So, we're, we're, we're really blessed with vocations.
And it's so, that is another sign of the renewal that's underway in the church, I think.
Yes, it is.
That's tremendous. That is, that is actually great news to hear.
Right.
Yeah, it is. It is. And they're really wonderful young men coming. Tremendous. Very tremendous. Very serious.
So, Father Daniel, so your book is "The Path of Healing," right? And it's based on the thought of St. John of the Cross. So, before you actually get to the heart of the question of contemplation as a, as a form of healing, for those who may not know the general theology of St. John of the Cross, can you give us maybe two minutes of, or maybe more than that, the more the more you give, the happier I'll be, but tell us about St. John of the Cross, not his biography, but his thinking, his spirituality, his theology.
Okay. Yeah. Well, he, of course, it comes from his own lived experience, although he doesn't write a, a lot about his own experience, his autobiography. But he had an understanding of human nature, I think.
Um, he evidently, in his, in his, in his experience, uh, he was very interested in healing himself. Even as a young lad, he was, he worked in a hospital with patients who had syphilis, okay, for about 13 years.
So, I think he was really. Then when he became a Carmelite, he also became an exorcist. He was also an exorcist.
Um, oh, he was had some experiences of exorcism early on.
Where he was called for an exorcism. But I think the, the basis is that when you, when you read the, the, the, um, "Spiritual Canticle," his book, he says that he wrote to help people who were going through trials and difficulties of life and they didn't understand them. And I think his, now, this is how I perceive him. I think that his understanding of human nature, of the dignity of the human person, but also the brokenness of human nature. He was very interested in helping people to make sense, to find meaning in what was happening in their life. And this is why the image of the Dark Night comes out very clearly in his writings. I mean, he's known as the Doctor of the Dark Night. I don't think that's the best way to describe him. I think the best way to describe him is he was the Doctor of Divine Love. Oh.
See, um, the night is a, a, a metaphor of an ongoing process of transformation that takes place in life, and especially when you have a serious relationship with the Lord. You know, you're praying, and you're trying to live a good Christian life, you're going to go through a process of transformation. Uh, I mean, as a Christian, even to follow Jesus, you're going through a dark night, if you want. But you're going to go, if you want to go, to follow Jesus carefully, you're going to pick up your cross and follow him, which will mean you're going to go through a transformation process. You're going to be a Christian. So, the Dark Night's not only reserved to mystics, you know, people in monasteries and convents, but anyone who follows the gospel very seriously is going to be in, is going to have to go through conversion, through transformation. See? And so, but I think that John of the Cross, his experience of his own personal experience of suffering in his life and the difficulties he had, he was born in poverty and had a very difficult childhood, and then in his ministry, uh, as a confessor and spiritual director, uh, he, he, he tried to help people make, find meaning in the great trials of life, the diff, things they went through. But his real interest is, is, is in love. You know, he had a great understanding of human nature as that we're created out of love and for love. I mean, this is something very, very much part of St. Teresa as well. Our Carmelite saints had a, have a wonderful, they have a very high image of human nature. I mean, a very, that the beauty and the dignity of the human person as a dwelling place of God. You know, St. Teresa said that every human being is like a, a crystal, an oriental pearl, a tree of life planted in the waters of life. And John of the Cross will talk about the, the indwelling of the Trinity, the dignity and the beauty of the human person. Um, so there's this very positive understanding of human nature, but also a very realistic understanding that because of original sin and their own personal sin and our own personal makeup, that, that we need to be transformed. And so John of the Cross's doctrine is basically that process of transformation based upon, first of all, you know, why we were created. We were created to share divine life. He talks about being, we're, our vocation in life is to be, is to, to be, to be united with God through love. Union with God through love. And what that means, union with God through love, is that we are called to be, um, transformed, to share in divine life, to love as God loves. Okay? You know, I mean, basically, that's what it is, to love as God loves. That's a pretty high ideal, isn't it? I mean, that's only God can make that possible. But that's what we're created for. We're created for this union with God through love, which is, which leads to, you know, being united through the Trinity, you know, I mean, being transformed into Trinitarian life.
May I just interrupt you just for a second because I have two, two questions about what you've already shared, which is fascinating. The first is, when we speak of the Dark Night, most people understand that as a period of, of doubt, struggle, emptiness, the absence of God's presence. It, it's reminiscent to when the diaries of St. Teresa of Calcutta were published, and she spoke about this darkness, this dark period. Is that, is that doing justice to what St. John of the Cross speaks of when he says the Dark Night?
Not completely. It could be some of that experience. The Dark Night could include, uh, doubt. Um, I mean, St. Teresa, you know, at the end of her life, she doubted the existence of eternal life.
The last 18 years of her life, you know, she had these doubts about eternal life, not about God. And it could be, um, a purification of the life of faith that could take a form, or could be expressed in doubt and dryness in prayer. But the Dark Night doesn't only, that doesn't only mean that doesn't include the Dark Night. The Dark Night can only be, be seen in that light. Okay? Uh, there are many experiences of the Dark Night. Um, uh, there could be a humiliation. It could be a trial. It could be a struggle in a relationship. It could be, it could be many, many, uh, experiences. And, uh, and it, it's really the, the work of God purifying our faith, hope, and love, you know.
Uh, and so it, I understand what you, the question, and it, that could be one experience of the Dark Night, but not the,
but not the complete experience. So that's very helpful to know. And in the sense, the Dark Night that you would endure, or I would endure, would be as different as your spiritual journey and mine, depending on what we need to be purified in our lives.
Exactly.
Right.
There are as many Dark Nights as there are saints.
But wow. Now that,
I mean, as, as holy people.
Father Daniel, that's the saying of this podcast. That is something to think about. Wow. Because it, it, the Dark Night depends very much upon your personality, your history, your woundedness, your, what needs to be transformed in you.
Right. Right.
And of course,
and everybody has their own personal experience of the Dark Night.
And because we all have our own different wounds, too.
That's right. Right. Right.
Let me, let me just jump in here quickly. Excellency. Did you have,
No, I said after the break, I'll go back to my second point.
Yes. Yes. So, this is Let Me Be Frank on the Veritas Catholic Network with Bishop Frank Caggiano. Uh, his Excellency is speaking with Father Daniel Ching, the Discalced Carmelites, about Carmelite spirituality and the Dark Night, and, uh, Father's book, "Healed by Love." And we will be right back.
[Music]
Okay, welcome back to Let Me Be Frank on the Veritas Catholic Network. Uh, Bishop Frank Caggiano is speaking with Father Daniel Ching about, uh, the Dark Night of the Soul.
Yeah. So, Father Daniel, during our break, you summarized the, the Dark Night very beautifully. Would you share with everyone what you just told me that is,
Well, the Dark,
Yeah.
Yeah. The Dark Night, one way to look at the way I see it, and I think the way basically what the Dark Night is, is it is a transformation in learning how to love. It's a transformation of our selfish desire, and it involves the purification of desire in the sense that we learn to love more purely and selflessly as God loves. It's, it's all about learning to love, follow the great commandment to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself.
Yeah, that's interesting. There was a, um, I'm reading a book on Accidia, the sin of Accidia, slow, whatever you call it. And there is a reference in the book of the need to go from animal beatitude to divine beatitude.
That is to desire salvation and not necessarily content yourself with gratification of an earthly, transitory, or temporary good, whatever it may be. Yeah.
So, to learn to learn to love as God loves. In heaven, we will be loving as God loves.
That's right.
Right.
And that's a good point because there's going to be no perfection of love in this world until we get to heaven.
Yeah. Right. Right. Exactly. So, so talk to us about contemplation then. What, what is contemplation as a path to healing?
Contemplation. Contemplation, according to St. John of the Cross, contemplation is God's self-communication to us in love. When we pray, that when we open ourselves up to relationship with God through faith and and trust and love, that when we, and we enter into life of prayer and contemplation in that way, that God begins to reveal himself, to communicate himself to us. He dwells within us in the depths of our being, or we wouldn't exist. Okay? You know, and so the, God then we enter into this friendship with God, relationship with God, and then God begins to reveal himself to us. He communicates his love. He, not I mean, he communicates his love to us. And in that communication of love, there is a transformation that takes place. Okay? Because again, God begins to take over and to transform us. And so contemplation is, uh, God's self-communicating love to us through prayer and in life, not only in private prayer, but in life, you know, in all that we do.
So that, you know, through the sac, explain that further. So, certainly in prayer, when we gather and we put ourselves in God's presence, and we, we empty our minds of all the distractions and nonsense that most of the time fills it, and we begin to get a deeper appreciation of His presence, and it begins to speak. But what about in the ordinary rough and tumble of life? How does one do that?
Well, because, you know, St. John of the Cross says that another way to understand contemplation is living the, the theological virtues of faith, hope, and love. That's very much when we enter a relationship with God, it's not only in prayer, but it's in, through all of life.
You know, it's a life. Life is prayer.
Right.
It's just not, it's not just something we do two or three hours a day in the chapel.
Right.
And John of the Cross, um, it stresses very much the theological life of living faith, hope, and love. Of course, we receive those virtues at our baptism. See, the theological life, but to live the theological life of faith, hope, and love in all that we do, you know, how we have to encounter faith, how we have to, um, trust God in the middle of daily life, you know, things that happen to us, living the life of faith, you know, hope, uh, uh, trusting God in love, trying to love, you know, even when it's difficult, see?
And see, all of, all of that is part of the contemplative life. And so God reveals himself to us in, through other people, through events, through circumstances of life. The Lord, if we have a real relationship with the Lord and trying to grow in a relationship with the Lord, the Lord will then reveal himself to us in all that happens to us in life. And the challenge is to respond in faith, hope, and love.
So, in a sense, is it fair for me to say the Lord, in all of our lives, is constantly trying to reveal himself? The question is whether or not we attend to it, whether we're ready to see it or receive it.
Right.
Yes.
Yeah.
So, then all the times we don't, are the lost opportunities for us.
Yes.
God doesn't change. We need to change.
That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right.
We just concluded the Jubilee on Hope, right? For the whole church. And, and I want you, if you don't mind, to critique what I'm about to say. Because when, when the average person says, "Well, how do I integrate hope into my life?" Right? I mean, besides the obvious moments where you have to say, "I hope this works out," or, "I hope I trust in God's love in this particular circumstance." I say to, I've said to people, I say, basically, if you want to, to integrate hope into your life in a constant way, then the prism is heaven. You have to be able to keep always in the forefront of your mind, where I'm going. Every day, I'm going one step, one day closer to heaven, because the source of our hope is heaven.
Right. Yeah.
Is that fair?
Sure.
Yeah. Is it, is it, because it's interesting, John of the Cross has an image of hope when he talks about it in the Dark Night, that hope is like, um, it's like a helmet that has a visor that only looks up to God.
Ah.
Which is an interesting image of hope.
You know, that hope is keeping our eyes fixed on God. And hope also for John of the Cross has a lot to do with the memory. Emptying the memory of living in the present moment, and not, um, being, we have to, certainly we have to let go of the past, you know, and live in the present, keeping our eyes fixed on God. It's very similar to trust.
Interesting as well.
Interesting. So, part of healing has to do with memory. It's healing memory, too.
Yes, it does.
Well, that's interesting. You know, I remember, I remember when I was a pastor in Brooklyn, uh, a woman who, nameless, would always say to me when I preached on forgiveness, she would walk out of church and said, "Father," she said, "I forgive, but I don't forget."
And I said, "I don't think you quite heard what I just said."
No. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.
Oh, wow. Okay. So, now talk to us about healing then, in all of this context.
Well, then, if, if contemplation is a process of healing, then we have to open ourselves up to the, this relationship with God through prayer and through life. And, and then in that experience, God begins to reveal to us where we need to be healed.
He, the Holy Spirit, in John of the Cross, has a work called "The Living Flame of Love." He said, God begins to reveal himself to us, and the Holy Spirit reveals to us our woundedness, our brokenness, our sinfulness, our attachments. John of the Cross talks a lot about attachments, detachment.
He talks about what they call disordered appetites, which is really disordered desire, really. It's just, it's just selfish desire, basically, the, the pleasure principle, you know, put it down in concrete terms. And God reveals to us those areas of our life. It could be our attachments, or our things that it, that impede, impede, prevent us from a deeper relationship with God, with other people. Uh, could be anything: material things, prestige, power, comfort, get anything, sex, food, whatever it is. But also, he reveals to us on a deeper level, those areas of our life where we really are wounded and need to grow, to grow in love. Love of ourselves, love of other people, love of God. Okay? You know, and that's when we have to surrender and let Him heal us.
And so, we have our part to play, but really, it's all ultimately God.
Surrendering to God's love for us. It's really all about God's loving us, allowing God to love us and to heal us, and to live this life of faith, hope, and love that I've described. So, contemplation becomes God's self-communicating love that reveals to us the deepest roots of our brokenness. John of the Cross has a very beautiful image in, in "The Spiritual Canticle," which I really love, in stanza 23, where he, well, he says that God gazes upon us in love. We live in God's love, and God gazes upon us in love and makes us beautiful.
He makes us beautiful. And that, then he has this image that he takes from Ezekiel, Ezekiel 16, counts it as his own lectio divina on it, where the, the soul is like this abandoned child. Uh, the, the mother had the, because of original sin, their mother was corrupted, you know, this child is like abandoned. And God passes by and looks at this child, and keeps looking at this child, and makes the child beautiful, and makes her eventually a queen, okay, to, to participate in God's life. And I think that it's a beautiful image to say that contemplation is a process of coming to know who we truly are, and the beauty that we are, and God's love for us. And at the same time, it heals us. And we have our part to play, and a lot of it is a letting go and letting God heal us.
Right. Right. Right.
Yeah. Letting, letting go and letting God work, work within us, in and through prayer and life.
Right. Father Daniel. So, this now, this is in my mind, um, a moment of tremendous grace, because, uh, the timeliness of what you are suggesting is just screaming out at me for this reason. Because I've made it my business for many years now, but particularly in the last few years, particularly with young people and young adults, to try to unmask the agenda that's going on in the contemporary world, where there is this concerted and conscious effort to reduce us to centers of consumption. That is, to make us believe that we are insufficient before God's eyes, or before the eyes of anyone else, to be worthwhile or lovable. And so we just need to consume, and we need to, to go to the next item, or the next, whatever it may be, to try to, oh yeah,
in a vain way, make ourselves worthy and lovable. And therefore, in that world, to speak of healing, to go from the, those desires which are easily disordered and become addictive, to the freedom of what you're talking about, because you're really talking about freedom, real freedom.
It, St. John is precisely what the world needs to hear now.
Yeah. Exactly.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah. What we do. I, I mean, I think it's a matter of, who are we really?
Yeah.
Who are we?
Why were we created?
Mhm.
John of the Cross says that we are created out of love and for love.
To participate fully in God's life. When we suffer, we suffer because we try to find happiness in something that will never give it to us.
That's exactly right. And that has been true for humanity from the fall. But in this age in which we live, businesses are built on that.
That's right. The more I have, the more pleasure I have, the more I can consume.
Uh, I mean, it goes right down the list, you know, and the happier I am. And in the meantime, we lose who we really are. We lose our own soul.
And maybe another way to look at it is John of the Cross helps us define our soul. Prayer helps us define our soul. You know, where is our soul?
Right.
Right.
You, you know, and you know, I'm God loves me. God dwells within me. God dwells in all of creation.
You know, and real happiness is in my relationship with Him.
And trying, because we're made for this union with God through love. We're made for this union of love with God, of friendship with God. You could call it intimacy with God. That definitely has its has its profound implications in how I relate to other people and to the world around me.
Right. You know, the other piece to this puzzle, if I may, and I'm curious how you would, in the, in both in the thought of St. John and your own, is that concomitant with what I just described as society and what it's, it's, it's in some way consciously and many ways pre-consciously guiding all of us to, right, this profound sense of dissatisfaction, unworthiness, which ultimately is not true before God, right? But, but the other thing here that, that I think is important for us to, to really kind of consider is that for the average person, they do not, and myself at times included, they do not understand what you are saying when you use the word love. When you use the word love, right? The average person, I think, is being cajoled to believe that love is seeking self-satisfaction.
That seeking something, right?
Versus what we understand love to be. Right. So, if, if you were standing before a group of teenagers, I'll make this difficult for you, a group of teens, how would you define that this whole notion of what you're saying about love, and we're made for love, and the instinct, how would you define the word for them?
Love is seeking the good of the other.
That's one way. It's, it's as I said, the Dark Night's about the purification of, of desire. Mhm.
If we want it all for ourselves, just, it's just, I, I need this. I want the love. I want the affection. But what about, it's, it's this is where the dying to self comes out. This is where we're trying to seek the good of the other, you know, and, uh, there were, you know, purely for who they are, and for what, you know, for what life is, not just because I'm going to get something out of it.
Right.
You know, because we're not, no matter if we pour ourselves out in someone else, wanting to be affirmed and loved, you know, ultimately, we're all, that's, that's not going to work out either.
Right. Right. Exact. Well, exactly. Exactly. That is why it's fascinating the, which you're speaking of St. John of the Cross, because the cross is the greatest, most perfect example of what love is.
That's it. John of the Cross uses, has a wonderful text in the "Ascent of Mount Carmel," chapter seven of the, um, of the second book of the "Ascent," where he talks about Jesus Christ is the model, and it's Jesus Christ crucified that is the model.
That we have to follow. Now, what does that mean when you, when you reflect on that very seriously? Jesus crucified, he was stripped of all his securities.
And but he performed the greatest work of salvation when, when he was, but he lived a life of compassion, of mercy, of healing other people, you know, he, his life was poured out, you know, for other people, and then he died on the cross, totally poured out. See? And that, that's the model. See? You know, that's the Christian model. And so, you know, that's love. You, if we want to look at what is love, we look at Jesus. Okay? We look at the way he forgave, he healed, his compassion, his mercy, you know. Um, I mean, it's, he, he's the, John of the Cross said, he's the model. It's not getting all consolations and beautiful ideas and feelings. John of the Cross says, no, no, no. It's letting go of that and seeking love for the sake of love. Right.
Okay. So, in a sense, um, for, for some people, when they think of John of the Cross, they think of severity. They think of,
Right.
But in fact, what you're describing is just the opposite.
Exact. Exactly. Exactly. He said the reason for John of the Cross says the reason for everything is love.
Yeah.
Is love. And then, you know, so I mean, it's, it's in love, in the sense of Christian love,
Right.
Not just what I'm going to get out of it and my pleasure. Definitely there's pleasure in love.
And there's comfort in love.
But, you know, this, it's not just all about me.
Right. I'm not the center of the world.
Well, the pleasure that comes from it, the satisfaction that comes from it, the, the exhilaration, the joy that comes from it, is the foretaste of heaven.
Yes.
Right.
So,
yes.
So, again, your book is extraordinarily timely.
Right.
For, for what I think it's not just young people, for all of us are facing that, right? And in a world where sin is poo-pooed, and original sin is one of, you know, is supposedly an archaic idea that young people keep talking about. You know, you, it's this is exactly what the world needs to hear.
Right.
I remember once someone said to me, they criticized my, something I wrote in my book about original sin.
Why?
And they said, "How could you? I, I just gulped when you said original, wrote original sin." I said, "Well, look at the world around you."
Of course.
"How can you deny original sin?"
Of course. Of course.
Look at the wars, the selfishness, the greed, the, I mean,
Right.
Look at our own life.
Right. It, this is the way I kind of say it. Again, maybe I'm wrong, so I stand always ready to be corrected. But it seems to me that at least in my own life, to the extent that I have had any progress, it is to go from selfishness to self-giving.
Right.
In my adulthood, perhaps as a, a small infant, there is that trust and self-giving, which we quickly unlearn, right? So, there's something wrong here in this equation, right? And of course, that's what the, what the church teaches about original sin, in many ways. Um, so, we are not, we are not unworthy, and we are not, but we are damaged. The way I look at it, we are, we are not who we were meant to be in the first place.
Right.
And the cross is the path to go back to that. You know, it's funny. My doctorate is on the notion of recreation,
in eschatology,
St. Irenaeus. And so what Christ does for us in his death and
Resurrection is not restore us. He recreates us. We are more and better than what Adam and Eve had.
>> Yes. Yeah. Definitely.
>> Say a natural beatitude. We are going to share in the very life of God.
>> That's right. That's why we were created. That's God's purpose.
>> So So God actually returns the sin with even greater favor.
>> Yeah. That's right.
>> That that is just it's such an exciting thing to be a Christian. Right. important.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think it's all it's really coming to know that we're loved, you know, and that's easy to say that we're we're really I think all the prayer is coming to know that God loves us as we are, not as we want to be.
>> Right. You know what's interesting, Father? May I tell you a quick story? So, I am
>> Yeah.
>> So, last year I met all the parents whose young people to be confirmed. So, that's 2,800 parents in these meetings. And the meetings are not about their young people. It's about them. I'm trying to impart on them this sense that the church loves them as adults and we want to serve them as well. So it's holy communion this year.
>> So last night I had a session
>> and I mean I was amazing because I I said to I said to the uh there must have been 350 parents maybe more and I said to them do you honestly believe that God loves you? I mean not theoretically but that he really actually loves you. I mean, do you do you believe that God knowing all your secrets that even your spouse next to you does not know for all the ugliness that you and I may have in our lives and he still loves us? Is it if if that doesn't like exhilarate your heart, then we have work to do together to make that happen.
>> Yeah.
>> And then everything else falls into place.
>> Yeah. That that's so true. That's so true, Bishop Frank. So true. I mean that's the heart of it really.
>> So St. John it's is one of the guides then it
>> that's what it is. It is
>> so so anything else you want to share about your book or St. John or anything for our listeners? Well, one of the reasons I wrote my book, well, the theme was a theme I've been working on for since 1991, actually. All right.
>> I began Yeah. I began thinking about it. In 1991, we had a a fourth centinary celebration of the death of John the Cross and I was asked to give a lecture on John. I was I'm part of the Institute of Kite studies and I we were going to do some lectures on on St. John the cross that year and I chose the theme of healing in John the cross and that's always it's been my own experience of caramel too. I mean I've been healed in caramel. So it's it's it's also autobiographical in many ways. You know uh underneath it you know there's the theme of healing that I've experienced in my life and the healing of of uh uh the the theme of healing and the doctrine of St. John the Cross and St. Teresa too. I mean I think all of our Carmite saints the basic in my perception it's all about being transformed
>> the healing and transformation of the human person. Okay. And so but then I began studying the theme and then when I went to Salamanca I wrote my thesis on the theme. But what really also inspired me was today there's a great search for healing and it's tied up very much is with the idea of of of a spiritual hunger.
>> And there's all kinds of healings. If you go to a bookstore, you go look at the the bookstore the sexual and healing. There's you know there's the body heal meditation and healing yoga and healing body work and healing music and healing I mean there's all kind music therapy and healing there all kinds of people are searching for healing see it's it's it's a major theme today I think and it's very much linked to some search for uh a spiritual thirst a hunger you know and so I thought in that light you know what does John the cross have to say about healing in the light of this contemporary search for healing that we find in our world.
>> That's tremendous. That's tremendous because amongst all the things you just mentioned of the ways people are looking for healing, the one that you're suggesting is the one that's going to bear the greatest fruit.
>> That's right.
>> Yeah.
>> Because there's mindfulness and healing, there's body work and healing. And those are valuable thing. They're valuable. I I I would never criticize any form of healing. Um I think we had to be open how God works. But John the Cross has something very particular.
>> Yes, without a doubt. Without a doubt. Thank you for the day. Thank you for joining the podcast. This was tremendous.
>> Well, thank you. Thank you for inviting me and it's nice meeting you, Bishop Frank, and you, Steve. And so, thank you very much for allowing me to talk.
>> Thanks, Father. We're going to take one more break. This is Let Me Be Frank on the Veritas Catholic Network. Uh, Bishop Frank Catan has been speaking with Father Daniel Ching um the provincial for the Washington province of the Discal Carmelites and the author of Healed by Love. We'll be back with a listener question.
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Okay, welcome back to Let Me Be Frank. Um, so excellency, here is this week's listener question. It says, "Hi, Bishop. Can you help me understand the distinction between confession and plenary indulgence? What is the plenary indulgence offering over and above what is offered via confession? Thank you and God bless you."
Well, it's it's the relationship of two parts of the reality of our sin. So, when we come to the sacrament of of penance and reconciliation, when we confess our sins with true contrition and receive absolution, all right, and do our penance, our sins are forgiven, but the temporal punishment many times associated with the consequences of our sins are not necessarily dealt with by the forgiveness. Right? There is a a justice due, but the plenary indulgence allows the remission of the temporal punishment of our sins as well. We've talked about that before, right?
>> Yes.
>> And now we have one for the Franciscan year, too. The Jubilee of St. Francis that was just uh declared by Pope Leo. I think it was last week.
>> Oh, wow. Okay. Well, we we'll have to talk about that on another episode.
>> I think it's the 800th anniversary of the death of St. Francis, if I'm not mistaken, or the birth of St. Francis. wanted I forget now but yeah no it's the death.
>> Yep.
>> Great. So if you have questions for Bishop Frank you can send them in on social media or you can email questions atveratascatholic.com. Bishop Frank Kajiano is on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter and so is Veritas Catholic Network. And let me be frank is brought to you by foundations and faith and a grant from the St. TZ fund for evangelization. The St. TZ fund supports evangelization efforts throughout the dascese of Bridgeport, bringing the good news of Christ into daily interactions and reaching out to convert individuals and society with the gospel. Father Dana Ching, thank you so much. What a great great conversation today was.
>> Yeah, thank you. Father Dana, why don't you lead us in the closing prayer?
>> Sure. In the name of the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit. Amen. Almighty and most loving God, we give you thanks for the gift of our life and your loving presence within us. We ask you to make us ever more conscious of your love for us. St. John of the Cross tells us that God loves nothing outside himself that we all live within the love of God like a fetus lives in the womb of his mother. We ask you to give us the an ever deeper consciousness of your love for us so that we may be able to love you and love our neighbor as you love us. heal us of anything within us that prevents us from living this life of love. We ask this through Christ our Lord.
>> Amen.
>> Amen.
>> Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Man, thank you, Father Daniel. God bless you, Steve. I will see you.
>> God bless you. Thank you.
>> Filled by love. We'll have a link in the show notes. Thank you, Father. Thanks. Excellent.
>> Thank you, Steve.
>> Thanks for watching. Before you go, please be sure to subscribe, like, hit the bell, leave a comment down below. All of that stuff helps us reach more souls.
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