Transcription
Hi guys, I'm An >> and I'm Ari >> and this is Girls Gone Bible. And you know when I'm on this side of the table, it's because we have a very special guest and today is a huge day. We have Father Josiah on GGB with us today. The first priest, it's been three years in the making. We've been waiting for this. Hi, Father Josiah. Thanks for being here.
>> Well, thank you to both of you for having me.
>> Of course. Of course. We will get into everything, but first we were having a conversation off camera and I said, "You know what? Just give us one second. Let's turn the cameras on. The Greek Orthodox Church makes manly men, >> right? >> That's what we've heard." No, I And I've seen it. And then he just tells us says he's has 10 children. Amazing.
>> You know, the church and a beautiful wife, Catherine.
>> It's all true. Yeah. And the church does make men and women. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And Jesus is the ultimate human being. And in the church by his spirit, he makes people who are whole.
>> And men are supposed to be manly.
>> Yeah.
>> There's a beautiful text >> in first John where St. John says, "I write to you young men because you are strong and you have overcome the evil one."
>> Wow. It's a really important word today because so many young men are what shall I say viciously assaulted by all sorts of depressing things in our culture and they need to hear this that God views them.
>> The Apostle John views them as strong and they have to use their strength to love God >> and to conquer all the threats, all the demonic threats.
>> It's beautiful.
>> They need that.
>> Ari and I have been really excited to have this conversation with you because we both grew up Catholic. We are not originally Protestant. We would both identify as being Protestant today. We both go to non-denominational churches. And this is one of my favorite conversations to have. I love the Catholic Church. I love the Greek Orthodox Church. And I love the Protestant church. And I think in this conversation, our goal is to bring so much unity to the body of Christ. There's so much division between denominations. And we want to bring people together. and Father Josiah, we've been they've been having beef since 1207, since the great schism. Would you agree?
>> One of the realities of being Christians is that we're we know God and we are on a path towards his kingdom. But we're not perfect.
>> Yeah.
>> And we have a lot of sins that we have to overcome. This is why St. Paul says in the present tense, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Right. So, we have things to overcome. That doesn't mean that we're not authentic. It doesn't mean that we're not sincere, but we're incomplete. And so, conflicts do arise. Heresies do arise.
>> Could you explain orthodoxy to us, the origin and the connection to Jesus?
>> With God's help, I think so. I think so. You know, the Lord Christ came out of his great love for man. He has always been with his father. Jesus is not a creature.
>> M >> he doesn't he didn't start in time. He's the co-eternal son of God. He is divine and human and he's always been in the bosom of his father for all eternity. In time in agreement with his father and the holy spirit he became a man joining divinity to humanity and becoming what the church fathers called the theanthropos. That's a combination of two fancy Greek words. Theos which means God.
>> Yeah. And anthropos like anthropology which means man.
>> Jesus is the one unique God man. He became what he was not. St. Augustine says >> a man without ceasing to be what he was God.
>> Wow.
>> And he remains forever. The unity between God and man in himself. Once he came and he he taught us his life-giving words. He crushed the devils. He went into the desert right after he was baptized.
>> Mhm.
>> And the devil tried to ruin his life. He came to him and tempted him viciously and Jesus conquered Satan's temptations which was the first time Satan had ever been completely just overcome.
>> And then Jesus launched his public ministry and for three years he taught the truth, the unairring truth. He never spoke a single word mistakenly. He never said a single error. You know, I've I've been preaching for decades and decades and I make a lot of mistakes.
>> Oh, you do?
>> I say it's comforting. I feel seen.
>> I wish it was something. I'm glad that there's some benefit to it not to comfort other idiots. Sorry.
>> It's so Lord have mercy.
>> But our Lord never did.
>> Yeah.
>> Our Lord at the end of his ministry, he said, "I have only spoken the words that the father has given me to say." Can you imagine being that obedient?
>> Lord,
>> he loved his father so much. He only spoke the words that his father gave. And he confronted headon all the enemies of the human race. Everything that torments us, our sins, he bore them on the cross.
>> The devils who constantly attack us, he crushed under his feet. And then death, death tyrannized the human race. St. Paul says in his epistle to the Hebrews, he says that death was the ultimate weapon. This is in Hebrews 2:14. It's the ultimate weapon that Satan used to smash mankind. And Jesus voluntarily accepted death. He said, "No one takes my life for me. I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it up." He voluntarily allowed himself to die. Entered into death in his soul, descended into Hades, the the domain of Satan and and death itself, and then blew it to smitherines. crushed it under his feet like dust. Filled that dark place of sorrow with light and then on the third day resurrected his flesh which he had given over to death and then brought humanity for the first time to the other side of death. Until that time, no one, not even the great, not even the God seer Moses or the great prophet Elijah. These were incredible people. No one had beaten death. No one had beaten death until he did it. And then he announced when he when he raised from the dead, he gathered his disciples and he told them, "Go into the whole world, preach the good news to everyone. That Satan has been trampled. He doesn't have to be your tyrant anymore. That sin has been atoned for. You can be forgiven everything in the love of God. And that death has been crushed. Go tell everyone. Baptize everyone in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. teach them to observe all of my words, all my sacred commandments, and I'll be with you until the end of the age.
>> This is the message. This is the message that has changed the world. My life, your life, the whole world.
>> Thank you.
>> Jesus sent his disciples out to represent him. This is the connection between Jesus and the church. The church is literally his body. There's no separation between Jesus and the church. Paul learned this, you know, before Paul became a Christian, he was >> a rabbi, a Pharisee, and he hated Christians. He was actually holding the coats of the murderers of St. Steven, who we call the proto martr. He was the first one to give his life for Christ.
>> It's recorded in Acts chapter 7. It's an incredible text. And Paul was sitting there breathing threats against Steven, encouraging his murder. And then after Steven was killed, which was a glorious death by the way, he saw heaven open and he saw Jesus waiting for him standing supporting his martyr. The Lord has done that for martyrs for 20th centuries. And the 20th century was actually the greatest martyr century in the history of the human race. We gave more martyrs for Christ in the 20th century than all the other centuries.
>> Jesus was there and supporting Steven and Paul launched into this vicious attack. like he got letters from the high priests and he went to Damascus in Syria in order to round up all the Christians, arrest them and bring them back for trial. And on the way, Jesus appeared to him. It was the text in Acts chapter 9 says that it was high noon. The sun was at its full strength and yet when Jesus appeared to him, he made the sun look dark. That's how bright our savior's face is, radiant in glory. He appeared to Paul and Paul was blinded and fell off his horse. I've actually been there in Syria. We built a church years ago on the spot and put a beautiful and we have a beautiful statue of Paul falling off his horse there.
>> Awesome.
>> Uh it's always been a place of pilgrimage. But my point is is that Jesus said something to Paul that blew his mind and it answers your question about the relationship of Jesus and the church. Paul heard these words. Jesus said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"
>> Now, Paul didn't know Jesus. He was persecuting the church. He had not ever interacted with Jesus. He never did anything to Jesus directly.
>> But Jesus didn't say, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting the church?" He said, "Why are you persecuting me?" There is no difference between Jesus and his church. There is no separation. Paul says Jesus is the head and the church is the body and believers who are incorporated through baptism into Christ become individually members of that body. Paul found out that Jesus is not a floating head up in the atmosphere. If you want Jesus, you find the church.
>> Yeah.
>> To touch the church is to touch Jesus. So this is the this is the the churches the the Orthodox church's concept of how thick uh how important it is to be a member of the church. Jesus seeks everybody. He loves everybody. He's calling everybody to repentance and faith in him. But the way that you get that is you go to the church.
>> The idea of going to your closet and praying is a great idea, but you can't let it stop there.
>> Yeah, for sure.
>> There's no like individualistic Christians. That's not how it works. You go to the church and there's a beautiful text. It's in the epistle to the Ephesians. Paul says that the church is the body of Christ who fills all in all. So if you want to find the whole Christ, you can't just go to the right hand of the father and see Jesus. If you want the whole Christ, you need Jesus and the church. This is why we Orthodox have such a thick understanding of the importance of the church, the centrality of the church. There's no dichotomy between loving Christ and loving the church. You can't love Christ and not love the church. It's not possible.
>> Yeah.
>> Because you can't divide them.
>> There are so many different directions. We have so many questions. First I we want to ask you were originally Protestant, >> right? You grew up in Los Angeles. You were >> Glendale Presbyterian Church. It's my home church. You were Presbyterian and then you you converted to Orthodoxy. We want to know what that switch was.
>> Do you have three days?
>> I know. Unfortunately, I know. I wish.
>> Uh well, I should say first that I was very blessed. I feel very blessed in my upbringing and I didn't convert to Holy Orthodoxy because I was mad at my church. I had uh really fine pastors since I was a little boy.
>> Mhm.
>> As a matter of fact, when I went when I when I I went to uh when I went to college, I had applied to UC Berkeley, which is where my best friend was going, and I was planning on going there. I got in, I went up there, and on uh before I actually decided to go, I visited another friend who had gone to a Christian college in Santa Barbara called Westmont. And when I was up there, I was so taken by the college that I wrote Berkeley. I said, "I'm not coming.
>> Mhm.
>> I'm going to go there instead. So, I ended up going to this beautiful college and studying the scriptures, which was really my main study when I was in college. And I really deepened my Presbyterian faith. I had this interaction with the Orthodox Church that was so intriguing to me. When I was eight, I had a buddy uh who I played baseball with in Glendel, and he was Greek, and I would sometimes spend the night at his house, and he would sometimes spend the night at my house on the weekends. Well, he went he took me once uh to St. Anthony Orthodox Church in Pasadena on Rosemary Boulevard and I remember being so shocked by the liturgy and I didn't know what it was.
>> And at the end we have this custom at the end of going up and uh kissing. The priest will hold the cross or sometimes he'll distribute bread to us and that we kiss our priest's hands which is a sign of respect because that's the hand that baptizes us. That's the hand that >> touches us when when we confess and he reads forgiveness prayers for us. And then when we die, those are the fingers that actually close our eyes and put us into grave. We we love our priests.
>> And and I had never I didn't I had a pastor, but as a Protestant, you know, we didn't think pastors were priests.
>> Yeah.
>> And I went up there and I kissed the priest's hand and I felt like electrical light bul lightning strikes coming out of my mouth. It was the weirdest thing. And I remember stumbling out of the church cuz after that you just walk out of the church and I remember the sun coming in. I was 8 years old.
>> I kind of regained my composure >> and never thought about it again for 10 years. Then I'm 18. I go off to Westmont College and in the love of God, he lets me meet the woman who would become my wife.
>> Thank you, Jesus. And when I met her and she finally consented to date me, which was a challenge, she finally consented on March 17th, which is St. Patrick's Day. I've never forgotten that because one year later on St. Patrick's Day, I asked her to marry me and she said yes, for which I'm very thankful. When I started dating her, I found out she was she was Protestant also. She was Methodist, Evangelical Methodist. But she was the youngest of six and her oldest brother had gone off to Wheaten College in Chicago and had become Orthodox. He had this professor of religion who was encouraging people to explore different uh churches and he ended up becoming Orthodox. So when I started dating her >> uh he started writing me letters. He started sending me books, books that were super beautiful but raised questions I had never even thought about. And that began a journey for me that took about I guess about six years, five or six years in which I was finishing up college and I decided to go to seminary. So I went to a Presbyterian seminary which was an incredible experience. I loved it.
>> I had incredible professors. But all those years I was in seminary on the side I was taking independent studies about areas of difference. The organization of the church what's called ecclesiology. For instance, Orthodox Christians have bishops. Presbyterians, they're called Presbyterians because they don't have bishops. Presptor means it's contracted to priest. It's a Greek word that just means uh pastor or overseer. And Presbyterians on principle didn't believe in bishops. The first Presbyterian was in 1588, a man named Thomas Cartwright.
>> Mh.
>> And that so I that was one of the things I studied. Why as a Presbyterian do I not have a bishop? So I started I studied that issue. And then I had another issue which was the worship style. We studied the liturgy and another thing was the sacraments. Those three areas I did independent studies while I was in seminary. And in all three cases I ended up embracing I I can't say that I was even happy about it at the time. I'm happy about it now, but I wasn't so happy about at the time. I ended up becoming convinced of the Orthodox tradition on those areas. And so when I was finishing my school, the dean called me into his office. I had been studying very hard. Well, for many reasons, but one of them is I wanted to receive a nice there was a nice scholarship that you got if you were the top student. And he called me into his office and he said, you know, you should be getting the scholarship. He said, but if you look in the fine print, it says you have to be going into the Presbyterian and Reformed ministry. He goes, I have a feeling you aren't. And I said, you're right. You're right.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. So, then I I became Orthodox.
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Okay, this is so so interesting to me. I want to know I can't wait to talk about the Eucharist. That's like what I'm and and here's the thing. As again, Ari and I grew up Catholic. Neither of us have been to uh liturgy yet. We haven't been to the Greek Orthodox Church. And so um I think a lot of what we think about the Orthodox Church probably is similar to Catholicism. I know there's so many differences.
>> I do want to ask you about again a service. I just want to know >> like for me scripture is everything. The Bible is absolutely everything to me. It's what my life is is you know built on um after getting saved.
>> Yeah.
>> In the Greek >> because your girls gone Bible.
>> Yeah. Yeah. We are. So in the Greek Orthodox church, what is valued more tradition or scripture? The question as you put it is uh an expression of your Protestant commitments because in your mind those are two different things.
>> Which is it scripture or tradition?
>> All I would say to you uh with all respect
>> Mhm.
>> is you need to read your Bible more closely.
>> Okay.
>> St. Paul says this. He he said this to the Thessalonians. This is 1 Thessalonians 2. Stand fast and hold to the tradition which I imparted to you either through word of mouth or writing.
>> So tradition is not an antithesis to scripture. Scripture is the chief part of tradition.
>> Right?
>> There's also oral instruction. If you were in that church, you would, by the way, that church, the Thessalonians, that town is still actively Christian. I actually went there first in 1996. It's called Thessalonica.
>> Mhm.
>> It's a famous town in Greece. Paul was the pastor there. When I went to my first liturgy there in 1996, I stood in the altar with the priest and behind the altar was this old old stone chair.
>> Yeah.
>> And it was roped off. It's usually where the bishop sits and it had an icon of St. Paul in it. And I asked the priest after the liturgy, I said, "Why is it roped off?" I said, "Doesn't your bishop sit there?" And he goes, "Oh, he would never sit there." I said, "Why?" He goes, "That's Paul's seat that he used to sit in when he was teaching the church in Thessalonica." I said, "What?" Yeah. I mean, that's how Paul started that church and he wrote these two letters, first and second Thessalonians to them. And he told them, I mean, if you were a parishioner there, he he he was there 18 months, >> teaching every day, >> right? >> Can you imagine being his students, his disciples, listening to St. Paul tell stories of his conversion and how to become a Christian, and then he left you two letters, one with five chapters, one with three chapters. Do you think those two letters contain everything St. Paul told you?
>> Yeah. you. He was your pastor for 18 months. He told you tons of things. He taught you how to love God and how to serve God in great detail. If you if if when he died, if when he was martyed in Rome, you you forgot everything he had taught you over 18 months and only followed his two letters Bible only, you would have greatly reduced the amount of apostolic instruction that he gave you, >> right? >> Nobody did that. So for for the Orthodox, we love the scriptures. Are you kidding me? We love the scriptures. The greatest Bible teachers in the history of the church are are saints. I quoted St. John chrostam to you earlier. It's the greatest preacher in the history of the world.
>> Yeah.
>> His sermons are collected and read for the he died in 407. The last 1600 plus years. We've been reading his sermons east and west. They're translated into every language.
>> Comparable in the Greek language only to St. Augustine's writings in the Latin West as far as size.
>> He knew the Bible. He literally memorized the entire Bible while living in a cave for 6 years in which all he did is read the scriptures and memorize them during the day and at night pray. He never even laid down once in six years. He tied himself to a wall >> to sleep >> to stay awake >> to read to study it for 6 years.
>> Six years.
>> When did he sleep?
>> He slept like for an hour but only upright.
>> That's kind of how I felt this past 3 years. I feel like I've tied myself to a wall. I've been studying. I'm not kidding.
>> Wow. That's serious business. That's serious business. But my point is is that no one no one listened. He quoted from memory in his in his corpus of writings.
>> He quoted the New Testament 11,000 times and the Old Testament 7,000 times in his written sermons that we have. All from memory. When he he preached an hour in the liturgy, an hour. And when he stopped, the people booed universally. Please don't stop. This is how incredible this man is. No one can suggest that the Orthodox Church doesn't love and rever the scriptures. It was our bishops who sifted, you know, the Bible didn't fall like a package on Christmas day from heaven.
>> The Bible was uh inspired by the Holy Spirit, written by the apostles, but discerned by the church.
>> There were many different documents that claimed to be by the apostles that were false.
>> And then there were other things written by important men that were very edifying, but they weren't scripture. They weren't inspired. They weren't infallible. And it was the church fathers that established what is authentic and what isn't.
>> They had four categories. This is divine scripture. This is good but not scripture.
>> Would like the book of Enoch be in that second category.
>> The book of Enoch. Um
>> it's the one thing that like new believers kind of always bring up for some reason is the book of Eno.
>> Popular. People people talk a lot about that. Yeah. uh that text in particular,
>> it would either be in that second category or the third category which is mixed, right? So there's inspired, infallible, there's good but not infallible. There's mixed, therefore be very careful. And then there's heretical.
>> Right. Right.
>> And all of those the it was our bishops under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit because the church as I mentioned to you earlier, you can't separate the church from Jesus Jesus's leadership.
>> Yeah. He promised. He said, "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."
>> I found out as a Protestant, I really had this concept that something was wrong until the Protestant Reformation and then the Protestant reformers fixed it. Yeah. Orthodox don't believe that. Okay. If that's true, then how can you have >> that promise of Jesus being true? I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. If you want to say that at any one time the faith was lost to the church or wasn't in its wholeness, >> then how is that not the gates of hell prevailing?
>> We don't think that and the church fathers don't think that. They we think that the church is always preserved by Christ and you can leave the church. I mean heresy can arise. Somebody can become a heretic like just like a body a physical body can be diseased. Right.
>> Right. But you have to by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that disease is cut off, right? We we throw the heretics out. St. Paul says that reject a heretic after a second or third warning.
>> Wow.
>> So the pre the preservation of the church is something that >> we think is basic based upon Jesus's promises. That doesn't mean the church is perfect, but it means Jesus will preserve the church and the faith in integrity until his second coming. We believe that. So, we don't think we think all believers today should be able to trace their lineage back uh to the church. And if you can't, that's a problem. And that's what happened to me is I couldn't the way I was believing and the way I was worshiping.
>> Mhm.
>> I knew I could trace it back to 1588, but I couldn't trace it back to the apostles. And that bothered me.
>> That really bothered me. That doesn't mean that it was all wrong. The vast majority of what I believed as a Presbyterian was absolutely true. And it was orthodox, but there were portions that were not right in my judgment and in the church's judgment, in the Orthodox church's judgment. And I was asked this question by someone. He said, "Look, how many heresies do you have to believe to be a heretic?"
>> Wow.
>> And I thought, well, I think one, just one. And I felt I felt that I had a couple. So the reason why one of the reasons why this conversation is so important to me, I have been the past few months I've just first I went on a journey with communion. I went on a journey with the Eucharist that kind of opened me up.
>> What does that mean?
>> So I just I went through kind of a hard situation about 6 months ago and I leaned heavily into I just felt like I developed and received like a revelation of the body and blood of Jesus as a means for healing. Right? I needed deep healing and I began to take communion every single day at my house. And so I just went on a journey where the body and blood of Jesus Christ. It just it just became of like utmost value in in my heart and in my life.
>> And that led me to then and I also want to talk about the reformation, but then that led me to I started watching a bunch of videos on the eukarist, on orthodoxy, on Catholicism. And then I a few months ago, me and one of my best friends, we actually went to the Catholic church and I really wanted to take the Eucharist. I've been taking communion at mass my whole life, but I haven't been doing it the right way. I I didn't know that you had to be caught up on in your confession. So, I went to the Catholic church a few months ago. I did confession with a priest. I went and took the Eucharist. And so, I've been on this little journey. I love the Eucharist. And I I believe that communion is not just symbolic. And that's a huge conversation amongst Protestants saying that the Eucharist is simply symbolic and it does not go beyond that. Talk to us about the Eucharist because I don't believe it's just symbolic. Do I believe that there's like an elemental change, transubstantiation? I don't know yet. My heart is so open. So open.
>> Um you take it over. Jesus gave us an incredible discourse, a detailed discourse on the Eucharist. It's actually in John, the Gospel of John, chapter 6. The entire chapter is the most beautiful description of the Eucharist itself. He says, "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life." And then he reverses it just in case it wasn't clear. Whoever does not eat my flesh and does not drink my blood has no life in him. He means life, eternal life. He doesn't mean biological life, right? The scriptures talk about biological life, what's called vio. We get biology from that.
>> And also the life of the soul. Siki is the word. But then there's the most important life which is Christ's life which is eternal life. Aonia Zoey it's called in the New Testament when he says you have no life. He's talking about his life eternal life. The life that conquers death that holds you in existence forever with him in communion.
>> And he he connects it all the way towards eating and drinking his flesh and blood. The disciples were scandalized when they heard this. And there was a huge group. He he was giving the sermon to a massive group of people. And the scripture say St. John records because of this teaching many stopped following him. They literally And then Jesus looked at the apostles and he said, "Are you leaving too?" He didn't say, "Oh, wait. You're misunderstanding me. It's symbolic. Why would you be leaving me? I just meant it to be symbolic." No, no, it wasn't symbolic and it's scandalized. What are you talking about? Eating your blood, eating your flesh and drinking your blood. You're crazy. This is what the people were thinking. They left him. And the apostles were scandalized. And Jesus said, "Are you leaving too?" When Peter looked at him, he said, "Lord, where would we go? You have the words of eternal life." That reality, that incredible reality came into existence uh in the New Testament church. After the day of Pentecost, the church began to worship in our Christian way, which was a fulfillment of the Old Testament. The Old Testament had a type of the Eucharist >> and a type of all the sacraments actually, but they all came into fulfillment into their New Testament fulfillment after the day of Pentecost. And we set up the churches. And the church from the beginning was dedicated to the scriptures and to the eukarist and to the apostles teaching. The breaking of bread, the Eucharist was called in Acts 2:42. It's an incredible text.
>> And then Paul describes it again in a really shocking way in his correspondence with the church in Corinth. In 1 Corinthians chapter 11, Paul describes uh a worship service and he was describing how there were that church had some problems. Some of their parishioners were illprepared for the liturgy and they were coming to worship which was a very powerful experience. He says in chapter 14 that the the the worship service of the church at that time was so powerful that if an unbeliever came in, he was cut to the quick. He fell on his face in the midst of the church and declared, "God is certainly in your midst." That's how palpable the presence of God in the liturgy. By the way, that's exactly what happened to me when I went to the Orthodox church as I was just describing to you >> today. I have hundreds and hundreds of people trying to become Orthodox in my parish. I have 350 people receiving catechism right now from the outside. And if you ask them like as I have, what's the main thing? It's they visit the church and they feel the presence of God and they're like, "I can't leave. I" and they see us all receiving holy communion. They're just completely blown away.
>> Wow.
>> So Paul describes after describing that impact of the liturgy, he says in chapter 11, he said, "Some were coming without preparation to holy communion. Some were even coming drunk."
>> Wow.
>> They were coming drunk. And he said, "For this reason, a number among you are sick and some have died >> because they took the Eucharist without any reverence at all. They're they're intoxicated and they're going to go receive Holy Communion." This is how powerful. Now, if it's just symbolic, how does that happen? How does that happen? And the church has never believed that. This, forgive me, it's called heresy.
>> Doesn't matter how many pastors teach it. It's not the teaching of the church. It never has been the teaching of the church. The Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus given to us to conquer death and to give us life and to nourish us in a one flesh union. You know, husbands and wives, we have on their their union, their physical union, making love to your wife and its fruitfulness in childbearing. That one flesh union is an earthly uh way of closeness. But we have we Christians have a one flesh union with Christ himself, which is what the Eucharist is. After we receive holy communion, we say this beautiful prayer in which we ask the Lord to go through all of our mind and all of our body into our very core. We ask him to fill our bones and all aspects of our life with himself. And we basically live communion to communion. That's basically how we live.
>> Two questions. One, a million questions actually. one. Do you think that and so was it the Protestant Reformation that changed the Eucharist being the true body and blood and making it symbolic? And is that because they wanted to offend less people or is it because it's easier for us to understand that way?
>> Well, you you have to know that the Protestant Reformation wasn't a singular thing. The Protestant Reformation had many different branches. Some of them hated each other and they literally fought each other to the death. Zwingley and the Anabaptists fought with the Lutheran literally. Zwingley at 31 years of age, one of the major Protestant reformers was killed in battle, >> religious conflict uh in battle. So there were >> we had to be careful when we talk about Protestants in general because there's a very large umbrella under which that word Protestant is right. You have more traditional Anglicans and Lutheran on one side and then you would have what I would say is a lot of well-meaning megaurch people today who are really very extreme anabaptists. They don't actually believe the sacraments do anything.
>> They think that you're born again when you say a prayer. They think it's completely disassociated from baptism. That is not the teaching of the church.
>> Jesus was very clear when he was talking to Nicodemus. This is John chapter 3.
>> Mhm. To be born again is to be born of water and the spirit. The megaurch pastors have removed water from the equation.
>> They think the Holy Spirit comes into you because when you pray and ask Jesus to be your savior, which is a beautiful thing. I ask them I ask him every every day, not just yesterday, not just a long time ago. Lord, save me today. That doesn't mean I'm nervous and I don't think he loves me or he's not in me or I'm not baptized. No, no, I'm not. So, don't get the wrong idea. But I want I want to love him more. I still have parts of me that need redeeming dark spots. He I need him to light up. I need him to save me and I need him to save me and I need him to save me now and I need him to save me in the future uh as well. The salvation though begins the the relationship as soon as I started calling on his name and even when I was little I had a relationship with him. But baptism is the culmination the formal beginning.
>> Wow. Oh,
>> and when you get baptized, you get you get married. You get married to him and it washes away your sins. St. Peter says, this is first Peter 3, so no megaurch pastor can be mad at me for quoting this. Get mad at St. Peter. He says four words, baptism now saves you.
>> Wow.
>> Okay. It's not a symbol. It's not just something you do on the outside. And when you start thinking that, of course, I I know many Protestants who come to the Orthodox Church who've been baptized numerous times. That's completely forbidden. It's completely impossible.
>> Wow.
>> There is no such. You don't get born again numerous times. If you're born, you're born, then you live.
>> And is and is the or is Greek Orthodox you get baptized later in life rather than in Cath Catholicism where you do it as a baby?
>> No. Um well, it depends. It really depends who you are. So people who are coming to the church are received by baptism.
>> Uh and then their children are baptized around 40 days old. And the paradigm the reason that we do that is in the old testament um mo Abraham was circumcised. Circumcision was an old type old testament type of baptism. St. Paul says this in Colossians 2. Circumcision was the mark that you belong to God just like baptism is.
>> And God asked Abraham to do that as adults. So when Abraham was converted, he got circumcised. It hurt because he was a grown man. But Isaac, he circumcised on day eight.
>> And so that paradigm, St. Paul says, is a paradigm we follow. So converts who are old get baptized as adults. But then their children around the 40th day are baptized and they have their own godparents.
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I was going to ask about because I'm trying to, cuz we don't have that much more time and I have a million and five questions. Um, would you say that Orthodoxy is maybe more intellectual? By the way, when I ask questions, I'm like so openhearted and sometimes when I ask questions, I'm simply asking from the Protestant's perspective, you know, the things that they want to know.
>> Of course.
>> Um,
>> But this is a question for myself because I have spent the past like five years in hyper-charismatic spaces. Um, I believe heavily in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And first, I want to ask you, would you say that Orthodoxy is maybe more of an intellectual approach to faith? Whereas at times, and this could be a complaint of mine in a lot of people's, that in the Protestant church, in like charismatic spaces, there's maybe a hyper-emotionalism, like we rely so much on feelings and rely so much on like, "The Lord is there if you get slain in the spirit. The Lord is there if you're balling your eyes out."
>> No. No, I wouldn't say that Orthodoxy is an intellectual is for the intellectuals.
>> Um,
>> And forgive me, I know a lot about Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement.
>> It's a lot of beautiful things about it, actually.
>> I have a friend, he's gone to be with the Lord now. His name was Father Michael Harper, but he, as an Anglican, was a major charismatic leader internationally and he converted as an older man at like 65 to Holy Orthodoxy and became an Orthodox Christian and then wrote an incredible book about his journey to become Orthodox. So I even have friends who were very, very influential charismatic teachers. The charismatic movement is tame compared to the life of the normal Orthodox Christian.
>> Wow.
>> I don't think there's so
>> I don't think there's anything in the charismatic movement that even appropriates even close to kind of just the normal Orthodox way.
>> Wow.
>> I mean, the the church, what the the proof of the pudding, the proof of the grace of God
>> is in what it produces. And the greatest witness that uh Jesus is alive and that his grace can even conquer our sins and death is the production of wholeheartedness. That's who we call saints.
>> Wow.
>> People who
>> I like that.
>> are so close to him that even their enemies they love and death is welcomed. We produced the church. If you if you came into my parish,
>> it's gorgeous. We're going to come visit. I can't wait. You're going to go nuts. I shouldn't say more. I shouldn't say, but when you come in, you'll see painted on the wall. The entire church is painted.
>> Actually, we invested millions of dollars to paint. There's a scheme of iconography that Orthodox churches follow that that reveal the life of Jesus and his miracles in paint. So that if you if you can't actually read, which is the vast majority of Christians for all time, we're not literate.
>> And you, you could read the whole life by looking. And
>> you'll find, and when you come in, you're going to see full-length people, different historical figures, men, hundreds of them, men on the right side, women on the left side.
>> These are all people from every century. We made sure that we painted saints from all 20 centuries,
>> from every land, defied death, overcame their fears, and loved Christ in the way that he loved us, which is unto death. Jesus said, uh, no greater love has a man than to lay down his life for his friend. And to to be able to have a closeness with Jesus so intense that you actually embrace death for his sake rather than in any way betray him. This is so much more impressive than speaking in tongues or getting a prophecy. I mean, I'm not saying anything's wrong with that.
>> It's just it's minor compared to what's happened. And the greatest number of those of those martyrs actually is the 20th century
>> we have produced. The church isn't like stilted. I mean, people sometimes look, oh, we wish I could live like in the first centuries. No, you don't.
>> You don't live now. Live in the time that Jesus put you in and live the way they lived in the first century. Really? You know, we have this incredible saint.
>> You made me think of him when you mentioned the Eucharist.
>> His name is St. Ignatius. He was actually
>> love Ignatius.
>> You know about St. Ignatius?
>> I know Ignatius.
>> This is he died in like 107.
>> He was actually the little boy. The tradition says when Jesus gathered a child and put him on his lap and told the disciples, "Unless you become like this child, you'll never inherit the kingdom of God." The tradition says that was him as a boy. That was Ignatius. He ended up becoming the bishop of the leading city in the East, which is called Antioch in the eastern part of the Roman Empire. And he was so influential that the Roman, the pagans hated him and they literally put him in chains, walked him across the world to Rome and then murdered him in the Coliseum. And he wrote these letters. He wrote seven letters on his journey to the churches to the major churches that he knew were going to be on the path that the the soldiers were taking him. And he wrote them with with one request: Don't stop me. Don't. Because they were going to pay off the, they wanted to save them. He said, "Don't save me. This is my dream. This is my dream." He goes, "I want to become chewed by the lions so that I can become the bread of Jesus and offer my life back to him. I want this." And then he told them, he said, he said, he called, he started describing how much he loved the Eucharist. And he said, "The Eucharist is the medicine of immortality. If you want to conquer death, you want to become made strong so that you can stick with Jesus no matter what, take the Eucharist."
>> Wow.
>> Do you think Okay.
>> And again, every question we ask is with complete humility in our hearts that there's so much that we don't know and so much that you can educate us on. Do you think me taking communion at home, um, by myself is, do you think it's one, is it a heresy? Is there power? Is there presence in what I'm doing? Or do you believe that it's only in the church that there's any power or presence?
>> Well, just like that question you asked earlier, let me reframe it.
>> Yeah, let me reframe.
>> Absolutely. If the church is who Jesus said it was, this is his body and the fullness of Christ on the earth. And if having a pastor of the church and what a pastor that has received the tradition and passed it on
>> is important, having a bishop, having a priest is, then certainly that doesn't mean that you can't be with Christ when you pray outside of the church. It doesn't mean that he's not going to do miracles for you. Doesn't mean that he doesn't love you.
>> But you can't turn the world into church. That's what we're trying to do by preaching the gospel. One day, the whole world will be lit up by the church. The church is the light of God on the earth, and we're trying to light up the darkness. One day, we will.
>> One day, there won't be anything but church. That's what heaven is, is there's no single speck that's not dedicated to Christ and filled with his presence and the light of the church. But now we live in a mix, right? Now, St. John writes, "The whole world lies in the power of the evil one."
>> Yeah.
>> Right. So there's church and there's world. The c, the goal of the church is to go into the world without becoming the world. Right. We're in the world, but we're not of the world. Yeah.
>> And Jesus set us into the world. We're trying to light it up.
>> But there's a distinction. If you say that what you do in your closet, what you do privately in your home is equal to what's going on in the church, you're making a big mistake. You can't trivialize membership in the church. It's organic. To be connected to the church is to be connected to Jesus's living body on the earth. And that necessarily means you have a bishop. There is no such thing as being membered in the church like Jesus wants without having a bishop. Matter of fact, St. Ignatius says you have to know him. And that your bishop should know your name.
>> Wow.
>> Your bishop should know your name. The bishops and the priests of the church are Jesus's shepherds. You know, Jesus said to Peter after the resurrection. I remember Peter denied him three times. After the resurrection, Jesus met Peter and he, he fixed him. He healed him by asking him three times, "Peter, do you love me?" He let, he let Peter say yes three times to heal his triple denial. And then he told Peter, if you really love me, this is what you have to do. This is way, this is how the apostles and their successors show love. He said, "If you love me, feed my sheep." That's the mentality of bishops and priests. The way that we show, the way that I as a priest show love for Christ is to take care of you,
>> to take care of the sheep. So, not so, so if you don't have a priest in your life and you don't have a bishop in your life and you're not receiving the sacraments,
>> you're missing out.
>> You're seriously missing out. We can't trivialize that.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> We can't act like, but that doesn't mean that the Lord doesn't love you, that he doesn't hear your prayers, that he's not answering your prayers and working miracles in your life. If you ask, you receive. If you seek, you find. If you knock, he opens the door for you. But he always is going to take you and send you to the church. You know, I, I'll use an example of Cornelius. Do you remember the story in Acts 10?
>> Cornelius is a, is a Roman centurion. He's a very influential pagan military commander,
>> but he was pious.
>> And he was watching the Christians and he was watching the Jews and he's like, "Huh, I better start praying." So he was praying and the text says that God listened to his prayers and sent an angel to him and said, "Your prayers have been heard." Some people who, especially the more kind of wild Protestants, no offense,
>> would not take it.
>> They think they think, "Wow, I mean, look at that. He's saved." But the angel told him, "You need to go and send for a man who's down at the house of Simon the Tanner. His name's Peter. And tell him to come say, speak to you because he has something very important for your salvation." So he sent his servants. They went to Peter's house. Peter was actually praying and he was having a vision on the top of this man's house when the, he heard a knock on the door and he came back down. They said, "I'm from Cornelius the centurion and an angel told them that you have to come." So he went there and Peter prayed for him and baptized him.
>> Wow.
>> And he received the Holy Spirit. I love that text because it shows one, the Lord was working in his life before he had interactions with the church. But he didn't stop there.
>> A lot of people think it's me and Jesus. Me and Jesus. Well, that's great, but that's a beginning.
>> Yeah.
>> Jesus brings you to where he lives, and where he lives is in his church. His spirit fills his church.
>> And this in Cornelius's life, he wasn't saved until he met Peter
>> and Peter baptized him and he received the Holy Spirit. This is what happens. So, I would just say a lot of a lot of what's going on in Christianity in America and in Protestantism is preparatory. That's how I look at it. What does that mean? That means that Jesus, there are people who are interacting with Jesus and Jesus is interacting with them,
>> but it's not meant to be the end.
>> He wants you to root yourself in his historic church, which is his body.
>> Plant yourself there.
>> Root yourself deeply. Participate in the sacraments. Get a priest in your life because it's normal. It's how we have lived for 20 centuries everywhere we've gone.
>> I have one, I have to ask you this. Do you guys pray to saints?
>> The girl,
>> you knew you knew where it was.
>> Look, uh, the the connection between the next life and this life is very intense. We often have this idea that what's going on here is one thing and what's going on there is another thing. If you read the scriptures carefully, if you read the Apocalypse, the Revelation, the last book, if you read chapter 6, read chapter 6:9-11, it shows the the souls of these people who had given their life for Jesus, these martyrs, and they're underneath the altar in heaven. That's how close to God they are. And they're praying. They're watching us and they are seeing that we're getting slaughtered. This is first century. We're getting slaughtered. We're getting martyred. And they're praying to Jesus and they say, "Lord, how long, holy and true, will you continue to allow this to happen to our brethren?" So this idea that they don't see us and that they don't know us, it's complete nonsense. I'm sorry. It's complete nonsense. That's a scriptural text. And that we have, of course, 20 centuries of interaction. You know, when I was saying that it, the normal Orthodox life, the normal Orthodox Catholic life is going to dwarf any experience as a charismatic someone's had. Well, this is one of it. It is the interactions with the next life. Paul says this in his epistle to the Hebrews. He says that our worship service, this is in chapter 12, he goes, "We ascend, not a physical mountain, not not Jerusalem's Mount Zion, a heavenly Zion, and we mingle with angels. Angels and men meet." This isn't every liturgy. I've had numerous parishioners, especially young people, see angels in the liturgy.
>> Wow.
>> And say, "Did you see that person standing next to you, Father?" It's like, "Nope, they didn't, but they did." Yeah.
>> Not, not once or twice. Not once or twice. So that world sees us. So when we talk about praying to saints, 100% we do 100%. We don't pray to saints in place of praying to Jesus, right? Saints are only saints because they're in union with Jesus. The word saint means holy one. Agios.
>> A saint is someone who's united to Jesus in this life and in the next. And yeah, we do. We don't, we don't pray to saints in place of them, in place of Christ. We pray to the Holy Trinity. And we also make our supplications known known to the Virgin Mary and usually our patron saints. Like I have a patron saint. My name, who you're named after is your patron saint. I'm Josiah. Josiah was
>> love.
>> great king.
>> Love Josiah. Last, last week, we just preached 2 Kings 22. The best. The best.
>> He is the, I agree with you. He's the best.
>> Do we have saints? Is there a St. Ariel?
>> Yes, there is.
>> What is she like? There's a St. Ariel.
>> Yeah, there's a St. Ariel. I have Ariel in my parish.
>> You're kidding. Yeah.
>> Yeah. You guys, you girls going to have to figure this out. Find yourself.
>> St. Angela.
>> Angelos is the word for angel. So, there are lots of uh Angelos and Angelos.
>> Oh, cool.
>> We have them in my parish, too. Very popular name in Greek.
>> Okay, cool.
>> I have so many questions. Like, do you like, can we talk about tongues and prophecy?
>> Oh, those are all great questions.
>> There. We're probably going to have to do a part two because we have come to the end. Father Josiah, truly, truly what an honor. Thank you.
>> It feels so holy, honestly. Like there's such a holiness just sitting across from you. It's, it's beautiful.
>> Well, I respect your incredible sincerity and your love for God.
>> Yeah. Thank you.
>> And I'm glad that you're seeking him and talking with people about it. What's more important than that?
>> To know God and to love God and to let this be a part of our national conversation. This is what we should be doing.
>> Yeah. And we love our Orthodox brothers and sisters so much. We love them so much. We are truly one. We're going to come to your church.
>> And I would just say, put your seatbelt on.
>> Put your seatbelt.
>> I know. Okay, last thing. Literally, last thing. So, I
>> I don't believe you.
>> Okay, last thing. There's so many people, I know, I know people who want to be Greek Orthodox, but they become Catholic instead because they don't have the time or whatever to do the catechumenate.
>> Um,
>> and so what if, yeah, I don't know what I'm trying to say. This is my favorite conversation. Whatever. Thank you.
>> And I really want to wear one of the lace things over my head. Do you guys do that?
>> I
>> She wants to veil.
>> I, I really want to veil. I have many visions of myself wearing white.
>> When you come and you see all those incredible female saints I was telling you about from every century,
>> Yeah.
>> you're going to see one common characteristic.
>> They're all veiled.
>> Every single one.
>> I think that's so beautiful.
>> Yeah. Every single one. It's because they're, they represent God and love and holiness to us.
>> Mhm.
>> It's an, it's an honor to be veiled.
>> Yeah. Thank you, Jesus.
>> Thank you so much for today. We honor you so much.
>> Thank you, Father.
>> Cuz you don't know me well, otherwise I might scandalize you. But I really appreciate, uh, being able to speak and thank you for the invitation.
>> Thank you so much. God bless you. We love you guys so much. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May he make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you. May he turn his face towards you and give you peace. Shalom. Shalom. We love you so much.