Transcription
The crisis of our times that's leading to the suffering is the crisis of meaning. It's not necessarily you can't articulate what the meaning of my life. I can't put words to it, but I understand it. And the way that you understand it is because you're using the right hemisphere of your brain. That's where the mystery and meaning of life is actually processed. The problem is that modern life has made it harder to find meaning because we're literally using our brains incorrectly.
He spent years studying success, meaning, and what really makes life worth living. Now, Harvard professor, social scientist, and best-selling author Dr. Arthur Brooks is showing that a full life isn't built by doing everything, but by making room for what matters most. One of the great reasons that we feel so empty and so meaningless today is that we're living in the matrix. And Chad GPT, all it'll do is just like blow smoke at you. Like, that's not helpful to me. What would you say is the meaning of life? It's the answer to three big questions. And people actually do this. There's a science behind this. They will find the meaning of life in 6 months if they actually do this.
Okay, Arthur. Uh, we see more and more in the headlines data coming out about loneliness and I want to dive in on one particular issue that's becoming really important to me and I am winning in this area and I want others to win in this area and this is the data. Only 38% of Americans report having five or more close friends. said, "I'm not even sure I believe that, but that's still a really low number."
"That's a low number. It's going down."
"Going way."
So, so that you find that more than 50% of people for the first time say they have fewer than three friends.
"And uh we've been looking at that number since 1990 and it's been going down and down and down and down."
"Yeah. And and the thing that concerns me is that I don't know that people see it as the crisis that I think it is. I think it's a looming like bigger crisis than it even is now. Do you agree with that?"
"Yeah. And it's a looming crisis and and we kind of know why. I mean, everybody watching us knows why. It has to do with the fact that we're mediating a relationships through technology and their virtual friends aren't friends."
"They're people that you might have some passing acquaintance with, but it's not it's not intimate at all. There's no neurochemistry actually between you. You can't get what you need. These aren't real friends, you know? It's like it's it's not what you need."
"But let's look back. I mean, I know we can't put the horse back in, right? But I think back to the 50s and 60s. still wasn't alive yet, but you know, you think about"
"you borrowed flour or sugar from your neighbor."
"There was just this this there wasn't all the distractions. And I know you just mentioned the media, but I also think there's there's something else there to where we've all just gotten comfortable driving in"
"into the back or into the garage, shutting the garage, and we go inside and that's kind of where we unplug and then we're back in and doing it again. And it's just gotten to the point where we don't sit on the porch. We don't wave at people. You know, I find I live in a neighborhood where there's a lot of walkers. And so, we're always walking or or out and about. We have a thing called PorchFest where we have concerts on the porches. And I feel like we're doing a pretty good job, but it's set up that way. It was almost designed that way."
"Yeah. There are people who are going there because that's actually what they want. And they generally have little kids and the whole thing. And a lot of people living in in major cities. you just go up the street here to Nashville and you're going to find a lot of people who don't know their neighbors because they're transient and they're urban is what it comes down to. And there's always been an element of that. I mean, there's always been, you know, people have complained about Americans for the longest time. You know, people would say the problem with Americans is they don't live around their families. They don't live in their hometowns. They tend to be really, really mobile. Now, here's the weird thing about this. Mobility's gone down, not up. Interesting."
"Mobility is actually half as high as it was in the 1960s and 1970s. the year I was born in the mid 1960s, you'd find that the chances are about one in five that a family would have moved in any given year, the chances are one in 10 now. And so people are less mobile than they've ever been. And yet people are lonier. And the reason is because they're actually, it's not just because they don't know their neighbors. They don't know anybody. And the reason is because the way that we're mediating our relationships is an incredibly unhealthy thing to do."
"What you're what you need to do is to be around real people,"
"right? And let's talk about that. Like like I think it it's silly that I'm asking this, but I think it's relevant."
"What advice would you give to somebody who goes, "Okay, I that's me. I've become isolated."
"Uh what advice would you give to them to begin to win friends?"
"Yeah, I know. I know. I know. What you need to do is generally speaking, the same thing that people ask me, how do I date people in real life and not on the apps? Go places where people are interested in the same thing as you. That's what it comes down to. I mean, it's like that was I mean the transient nature of the United States and yet the deeply interconnected nature that was a paradox that brought Alexis D toqueville to the United States in 1835"
"when he wrote democracy in America"
"and it's like what's this weird place where you know we're not connected in these you know the family has been living here for 300 years in the contrary people living out on the frontier and yet they take care of each other they know each other you know what's that all about and the answer was this civil society this social capital where people are bonding around common interests that they actually have. And there's nothing new under the sun, man. I mean, that's actually how we still do it today. So, I'll tell people, you know, people that, you know, my students, my average student is 28 years old. They're getting their MBA and they know they're going to be moving around a lot a lot a lot. They say, "How do I meet somebody like I might want to fall in love with?" It's like, "I date on the apps, but there's nothing satisfying. There's no passion. It's like gh I'm getting nothing." I'm like, "Were you raised in church?" Like, yeah. Yeah. Do you go to church? No. Inevitably, like, go back. It's like I don't believe it. I don't care."
"I don't care."
"Go to the parish if you're Catholic that has cuz in every city there's a parish where all the single young people go."
"and go and sit in the back and and if somebody asks is like are you super Catholic? It's like I'm open to it."
"And the but the reason that you're there is because you want love. Love of God, love of friends, love of the love of your life that you actually might find. And you can't do that cybernotically. You actually have to do that in real life is what it comes down to. Okay. not religious at all. You like to run,"
"right?"
"Go to the run club. You like books, join a book club. Do something in real life that's that's where where people are meeting around a common passion or a common interest. This it's it's the toquevilian idea that's as old as the hills."
"Yeah. I love that you bring up the toqueful first time ever on front row seat. Can't leave it. He said America is great because America is good."
"Yeah. Yeah. And so I wonder if I know my opinion. I'll ask you point blank. Do you believe that America has faded spiritually and that that's a direct tie to this loneliness epidemic in America? Let's take technology out of it for a moment."
"Well, well, for sure. And you know, the good news about that is that that spirituality and religion, they tend to wax and wayne. We're in the waning period. And I think we're up for a spiritual revolution in this country. Now, not of it all of it is going to be the type that you and I practice. You and I are Christian men and and and conventional Christian men at that and when we go to like the churches and the whole thing,"
"right?"
"When you have a spiritual revolution, you find all kinds of stuff that people find unconventional. So a big spiritual revolution was between the civil war and the first world war and some people were doing you know temperance movements and some people were doing tent revival and you know the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was tearing across the country and and the Methodists who were these wildeyed radicals you know believing in the rapture and all that. Nobody thinks of Methodists that way anymore, right? And uh they were big evangelicals that had come out of England and there was all this activity and there was also theosophy and and these oult religions and that's kind of how it works"
"and that's a lot more what we're going to see because there's a hunger that's actually coming back."
"Do you have a sense on when not so much from a prediction standpoint but do you have a sense when we might to see it? We are seeing certainly young men are moving towards orthodox."
"That's always where you start to see it is actually you see that young men get fed up with being unhappy"
"and then ordinarily it's young men start particular trends and then young women are the ones who are the main part of the trend."
"So it's like that that that's traditionally what's happened and that's what I would actually predict particularly over the next 10 years. But we got to do the work. Those of us who are serious about our faith, we need to do the work. We can't step back. You got to take the opportunity that's actually in front of you. We need to do the the the evangelization that's actually going to help people find these find these religious homes."
"Yeah, I love that. I want to move to something I saw recently. Uh Jenz is increasingly this is a Fortune article. Jenz is increasingly turning to Chat GPT and other agents for therapy."
"Yeah."
"And we know why because it's just there and it's just a big giant"
"ad because they're suffering."
"Yeah. They're suffering as well. But the fact that they're going there, it's a lot cheaper and now all of a sudden I just think we're that's a dangerous place. Yeah. Thoughts on that?"
"Yeah. So, that's a lot of what my new book is about is about how we're using our brains wrong. The the crisis of our times that's leading to the suffering is the crisis of meaning. So, we see the symptoms of depression and anxiety and loneliness and addiction and self harm and yada yada yada. You put you fill in the blanks of all these symptoms of suffering. The root of the suffering is the lack of the ability to understand the meaning of life. And that's a big big thing. So, I wrote the book to say, okay, what does meaning mean? Yeah."
"Where do we find it? And now how do we have to live differently? Those are the three big questions in the book. And and the book really is a six-part plan for finding the meaning of life in 6 months. And people actually do this. There's a science behind this. They will find the meaning of life in six months if they actually do this."
"But the whole point uh of you know of of the problem is that modern life has made it harder to find meaning because we're literally using our brains incorrectly. Meaning is understood. It's not necessarily you can't articulate what's the meaning of my life. I can't put words to it, but I understand it. And the way that you understand it is because you're using the right hemisphere of your brain. That's where the mystery and meaning of life is actually processed."
"All the technology and the what and howto stuff is in the left side of the brain. Modern life is all about the how to and what,"
"right?"
"The questions that have real answers are things you can you can ask chat GPT or put into a Google search bar. But those aren't ever meaning questions. If you can get an answer to a question that that is is correct and accurate and helpful to you, it's not a meaning question."
"But a big meaning question like does God love me? You know, you can't ask chat GPT that because chat GPT can't know."
"That's an experiential question. Like why do I love my wife? Chat GPT can't help me with that. Or you know what what would I die for? You chat GPT all it'll do is just like chat you up. All it'll do is just you know blow smoke at you. like well that's a very astute question that has been asked by all the philosophers throughout time here are five answers that have come from famous philosophers that's not helpful to me"
"and so because those are meaning questions okay back to your back to your question when people are asking chat GBT or any artificial intelligence large language model to give them counseling they're asking big why rightrain questions to a leftbrain machine that's right"
"those are called complicated answers to complex questions"
"and that will leave you empty. What that is is living in the simulation. One of the great reasons that we feel so empty and so meaningless today is that we're living in the Matrix. Remember that movie from 1999."
"Oh, sure."
"The Matrix, baby. I mean, that was a great movie."
"And what was happening was there was an artificial intelligence that was keeping people pacified by giving them a simulated life where they sit in these pods and the energy fuels the artificial intelligence, the machine,"
"and and people just like this is good enough. Well, that's how we're in the matrix."
"We really are."
"And and and if you want to find an AI girlfriend and an AI buddy and an AI therapist, all you're doing is you're going deeper and deeper and deeper into the simulation. And your brain knows the difference. You will be more alienated. You'll be lonier. You'll be more depressed. And you'll be more anxious because you can't fool your brain. Your brain knows what is when it's not getting what it needs."
"That's right. And I and I think it's I love I've read so many things about how the head and the heart, you know, trust your gut. That's actually not a old wives tales."
"No. No. On the contrary, the right hemisphere actually controls the left side of the body."
"That's exactly right."
"And left hemispherically biased organs are the ones that we use as a metaphor."
"So, for example, if you're splenetic, that means that you're kind of a grouchy person. That's spleen. That's left hemisphere. That's on the left side of your body, controlled by the right side of your brain, which is the meaning side of your brain. Do you have a heart? Your heart is left biased. Do you have the stomach for a fight? Your stomach is left biased. There's a reason for that. That's why we feel deep meaning in those bodily organs that are on the left side."
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"Okay. So, you said something and I didn't plan to ask you, but I want to ask you. What would you say short form?"
"Yeah."
"is the meaning of life."
"I have an answer and I don't mind throwing it out,"
"but I want to know. No, I want to know yours first."
"Okay. So, the meaning of life, the the meaning of meaning starts with a definition. And there's a psychological definition for the meaning of life."
"It's the answer to three big questions. Why do things happen the way they do? Why am I doing what I'm doing? And why does my life matter? In other words, coherence. You got to have an explanation for all the stuff that's going on in life. Right?"
"You got to have an explanation for why you're doing what you're doing, which is purpose."
"And you got to have an answer for why your life matters, which is significance. It's coherence, purpose, and significance. And then the answer to those questions in short form is the mission of your life. For me, it's to lift people up and bring them together in bonds of happiness and love, serving God using science and ideas."
"That's how I that's how I answer the meaning of my life question. How about you?"
"I think it's very simple. I think the meaning of life is to relate and create. Yeah."
"And I'm going to tell you this is theological and I think it's very obvious in Genesis chapter 2. Now I am simplifying it. You have the very awesome Arthur Brooks answer which I would expect from you."
"The scientist answer"
"but I but I think it's actually that simple. We were created"
"so it answers your three questions. I believe my statement does we were created"
"by the creator. Yeah."
"For a reason and it is to relate first and foremost to him. Yeah. But also he brings even to the picture and creates relationship for a lonely man."
"Right."
"Right. And so I think relation is the first purpose."
"And then I think the second purpose is to create. Even after the fall and sin he says go and and subdue which in some translations is create. So I do think that that meaning comes from those two areas. And that meaning"
"is there and felt because your creator thinks you matter."
"Yeah."
"And he does have a plan for you to relate. And he does have a plan for you to create. I don't know if that I don't mind if you"
"No, this is because what you just said is the meaning of life is to love and be loved."
"Yeah."
"To love and be loved and you know that and you"
"but to also serve."
"Well, I mean that's to love."
"Yeah. It is to love."
"That's the whole is and to love God and to have and to be union with him. I mean the whole idea of"
"we're made in God's image. Okay. What's God? Gospel of St. John. God is love. So how do I live that? Love your neighbor as yourself. Love the Lord your God. Love your neighbor as yourself. And if you can't remember that because that's too much, then do what St. Augustine said, which is to go to love and do what you will."
"Yeah."
"That's what it comes down to, man. I mean, that's that's the meaning of life."
"Yeah. And we don't need to make it too difficult."
"But we do. And the whole point of it is that we also have a physiology that can make that easier or harder. That's right."
"And since 2008 when since we've been staring at the anti-borted devices, that's"
"we've made it much much much harder. And God gave you a brain and a body for a reason. You know, this is the this is the receiver for the divine love."
"That's good."
"And if you're not using it right,"
"then then you're going to pay the price."
"Distracted the very receiver. You got it. Focus on the wrong stuff."
"Yeah. Completely. I mean, it's like basically, it's like,"
"how come my my television isn't working? Cuz it's not plugged in."
"That's right. That's good. I love that. Okay. By the way, I want to mention, of course, the new book. We're going to dive into it here. The meaning of your life. I mean, I gotta tell you, you are one of the few people that can title a book like this and actually deliver on it. And that's not flattery. It is because you do the deep work. And what I think is so great about this, this is going to challenge people scientifically, but even more emotionally and I think ultimately spiritually. I think there's a mission to this book. So, I I I want to I want to touch on that. We'll get to some of that. Uh you do talk about burnout uh in the book and uh in order to break the cycle of burnout. I love that the word cycle is kind of used here because that's what we see in the data, right?"
"And it's just this I'm back in the ER again, you know, whatever that is to try to medicate"
"the sources of burnout. Interesting in the book that you you say meaningful boundaries between work and life will help us break that cycle. So, I'd love to know, as you always do so, well, draw us a picture of what that might look like, those boundaries."
"Yeah. And and your show is really at the forefront of exploring these things. Your work in general is at the forefront of doing these things because you talk about about love and happiness in the context of what you're doing with your job, what you're doing with your career, contribution."
"Exactly. Right. And work is so critically important. I mean, the habits of the happiest people are faith, family, friendship, and meaningful work."
"This is one of the pillars of of the happiest life is what you're talking about. So, it's critical that we get this right. And and I have a whole chapter in this book about finding your calling because calling, finding a calling in life is central to finding your happiness. It's one of the six pillars of finding happiness is understanding your sense of service and calling,"
"which doesn't necessarily mean you're making the most money or you have the most fun job is what it comes down to. That's not what it it is. It's figuring out what you're supposed to do."
"And when people get that wrong, that's when they'll be chasing a kind of an idol. and and chasing an idol is what actually ordinarily leads to burnout is what we actually find."
"So I have a whole a whole lot of ideas in this book about about about how not to do that. But when it comes to the boundaries to address exactly what you talked about here, one of the biggest mistakes that we make is talking about work life balance. And part of the problem with that is that it suggests that your work and your life are different things. The minute that you have a binary between work and life, you're in trouble."
"That's right. Because then when you're trying to be successful, you'll have less life and more work and then you're going to burn out, right? Is what it comes down to. Your work is part of your life. If you're doing it right and you're finding your calling, your work is part of your life and your life is actually part of your work. Yes."
"I mean, your marriage should make your job better and your job should make your marriage better. If your if your job and your and your wife are competing over your soul,"
"you're gonna you're going to burn out, man. Yeah."
"You're as s sure as you and I are talking here, you're going to burn out. And if you're like if your if your spouse is jealous of your time at your job and the people at your job are are are kind of mad because you're having to go home to actually spend time with your family, you're doing it wrong is what it comes down to. And you need to take control of your life. And I I realize that some people feel like they don't have control of their life and it might take some time, but that's it. So the way to think about it is work life integration. And that means that you need to have parts of your life that are expressed in your work and parts of your life that are not expressed in the way that you earn your daily bread. So one of the things I talk about I have a whole chapter in the I have a whole section in the calling chapter on leisure and and this comes from the work of Yseph Peeper the great the great 20th century German philosopher who is the world's grading the greatest expert on leisure. And you think of like you need a guy a philosopher who talks about how to chill on the beach. No because that's not what he's talking about. Leisure is serious business. It's just not you're not getting paid for it."
"You're not getting compensated traditionally for it, but you're becoming a better generative person."
"You're becoming a you're growing as a human being on the basis of your leisure, which is why he puts it into the categories of of of deepening spirituality, of deepening relationships, and deepening knowledge."
"These are the three things. And so what we need to do is to take seriously, you know, the different parts of our life that are not the job per se, but are making us into deeper, better people such that work and life can integrate and serve each other better."
"I love that. Okay. On those three categories, give us some practical suggestions so people can go, all right, I'm going to I'm going to ideulate off of Arthur's list or do Arthur's list. Those three categories, something specific you'd recommend."
"Yeah. So I would I recommend actually having goals in these in each area of life. What do you want to read this year?"
"Yeah. Where do you want to be in your faith walk this year? Where do you want your marriage to be this year?"
"And so at the beginning of the year, I mean, let's put together some New Year's resolutions. Like, how is your marriage going to be better this year?"
"How are you going to be more knowledgeable about something you don't know about that's not lucrative for you this year?"
"And how are you going to be deeper and closer to God this year? How are you going to do it? I mean, it's like make some goals, dude. I mean, it's like it's it's like anything else. Take it take it have a business-like approach just like you do with your business. Yeah."
"As opposed to Yeah. I'm kind of hoping that yeah, I might pray some more this year. I'm not quite sure. And kind of hope I feel more religious this year. I sure hope that that you know the the old old lady and I kind of hope we get closer and she stops nagging me so much. It's like that's not a plan."
"That's right."
"That's just lame, man. That's just like not taking if you did that with your job, you'd be fired or out of business."
"Yeah."
"And so take it with the same seriousness, with the same strategic goals that you would on something like that, and you will the reward will be so great. I think there's some depth here. Why did he refer to what we're talking about as actual leisure? Because I think that's counterintuitive the way we use the word leisure. Yeah, you're right. He's not by the pool sipping a margarita."
"No. No. That's called what's he calls aidia."
"That's right."
"Which is this ancient Greek word that means sort of sloth,"
"which is a deadly sin, right?"
"You know, chilling on the beach. Okay. For an afternoon."
"So why do you think he defined leisure? What do we need to catch out of that word? I think words matter."
"Yeah. Well, he went back sort of to the etmology and looked at the the original nature of it. But what he was really thinking about was how the great philosophers thought of nonwork about you know the dignified way to engage in nonwork. And so he went back to, you know, he's going back to the, you know, the pre-Christian philosophers, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle in particular,"
"and to talk about how they talked about about how to become stronger, better, you know, more generative, more loving people. Yes."
"And they rarely said by spending more time in the office. That's"
"correct."
"You know, they were talking about how, you know, you would actually grow. And it's pretty interesting because what you find is that the"
"the modern literature completely supports this. I mean, there's a, you know, a study that you're you're well aware of called the Harvard Study of Adult Development. That's an 85 year longitudinal study that predicts what you do early in life and how it will lead you to be happy and healthy when you're old."
"Yes."
"And none of it is work harder."
"None of it is actually work harder. It's smoking, drinking, uh, uh, diet and exercise. That stuff is really important."
"But then it's learning, coping, and loving."
"Yes."
"And the learning and coping and loving is really gets into this that you know what that's that that's what goes into the leisure category. So, but the bottom line is and I think I titled the section of the book leisure is serious business."
"Yeah."
"Take it seriously."
"Yeah. Well, I love it. This is so informative to your work and I don't want our audience to miss this for the nerds. People want to dive into it. I read a book called The Pursuit of Happiness recently where he just the the author went back and studied the Stoics and their influence on our founding fathers. So when Jefferson pins the phrase"
"maybe one of the most famous phrases of all time"
"the pursuit of happiness"
"you trace it back to"
"virtuous living."
"Yeah."
"And so the philosophy behind all that was what the pursuit of happiness actually meant to our forefathers."
"There it is. And this idea that I want to live better each day. And it's the core of what you just laid out."
"A good life well-lived."
"It's great. I I want to make sure people get that. I I think we our nation needs a revival of virtuousness like just like what does virtue look like?"
"So anyway"
"yeah for sure and and again it gets back to loving and being loved."
"That's it is what is what it means. So it's interesting how you know virtue sounds sort of like my my original forefather in the in the United States um which was before the United States Henry Brooks comes to Massachusetts a Puritan in 1630."
"Wow."
"Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he goes to Concord mass and he's an indentured servant. works off his indenture, you know, and winds up really prosperous. Um, owning 115 acres and a bunch of stores and all this kind of stuff. He marries for the third time at 91. I mean, that old fox, you know, and and dies at 92 and and you know that people think of virtue is just like, you know, nose to the grindstone kind of Puritan thing, but that's not it at all. On the contrary, it's sort of this joyfulness that we find. And so, for example, people say,"
"How do I live a virtuous marriage?" How do I live a virtuous marriage? And and and there's all kinds of rules. I mean, all kinds of like obviously don't be an idiot. Don't cheat on your wife, you Like don't get drunk all the time. Don't like go bankrupt. Don't, you know, don't skip work. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff. But really, what it comes down to to live a virtuous marriage,"
"is it goes back to the behavioral and neurological correlates of actually what we want in each other, what God makes us for each other. And the answer is that that that a virtuous marriage is one in which people are that the partners they don't it's not that they don't fight but they're fundamentally at peace with each other because she is adored and he's admired."
"And this this you can imagine how this actually comes from the from the biology, right? From the evolutionary biology where you know it's like what she wants is to know that he would fight a tiger for her with his hands and only her. And what he wants is for her to believe that is the biggest gazelle anybody could ever drag into this cave."
"So true."
"And you know what? That's virtuous living."
"Yeah."
"That's virtuous living is what it comes down to. You know, for if you want to be a virtuous man, so you want to be a happy man and you want to be a married man and you want that to be the person you that you lay your eyes on as you take your dying breath, you got two jobs, man. Adore her and be admirable."
"Wow."
"That's what it comes down to. When you talk about this leisure, I'm I'm going to go down a rabbit hole on that. I'm very excited because I think that right there is the key to why everybody can't disconnect at night. Yeah. You know, and all the"
"They're not practicing leisure."
"There's no leisure."
"They're bad at leisure."
"Yeah."
"I mean, they're really good at aia,"
"right?"
"As sloth,"
"right?"
"Right."
"Yes."
"Which is not even fun. It's weird, you know. It's like you go back to the, you know, grandpa Coleman."
"Yeah."
"Who had a pretty boring life, but his life wasn't boring."
"Yeah. No."
"And today, nobody's life is boring. moment to moment. Their lives are grindingly boring because we don't do leisure. We do a CDIA."
"It gets back to this. It's not about the work. It's about the It's about the nonwork work."
"Yeah."
"In our lives."
"You know, I I have to if I could"
"make everyone in America do one thing, it would be to pick up books and older books. And I'll point out that one of the biggest uh growth years I had"
"over I don't know, I guess it was five, six years ago, I challenged myself. It wasn't a resolution, but it was a it was a yearly goal. And I said, I want to read at least one biography a month."
"Interesting."
"And I had a busy life, three kids under the age of probably 15 at that time. But I did it"
"and it was a real challenge. I wanted to do it. But was it fulfilling? Was it useful?"
"It was unbelievably fulfilling because I was such a student. In other words, I picked people that I wanted to learn about"
"and I did 12. Mhm."
"And um what I learned in that year, it was unbelievable just about humanness, not just these people in their lives, the ups and the downs, but I I think that's a great growth,"
"that type of intentional reading. Doesn't have to be biographies, right?"
"But if it's something where you go, I want to learn more about this."
"So you can say, I want to learn more about prayer."
"Yeah."
"And do a deep dive. Or I want to learn more about marriage. Right."
"But I just think we Americans are so addicted to the quick fix. And it's like even reading books that were written. By the way, I love to read books that are 50 years or older."
"Yeah."
"For one thing, that language is a little bit of a Yeah. a refresher. So, just a little nerdy suggestion."
"Yeah. No, it's a little a little bit more challenging."
"It is."
"Actually get through them. Yeah."
"But I think it's important."
"Yeah. And this is once again, this is one of the pillars of leisure that you're talking about is taking seriously what you're doing not for pay to improve yourself as a person with respect to your knowledge. The same thing is true with respect to your spiritual life and the same thing is true with respect to your relationship. So, you know, we're recording this at the very beginning of Lent"
"and and the Lenton season for a lot of Christians, not all, but a lot of Christians is a ch is a time for spiritual growth and challenge. So, that's the reason that that as a Catholic, I'm challenged to have Lenton goals."
"Why? And Lenton goals are leisure goals properly understood. And by the way, Yseph Peeper, this philosopher, he was a super serious Christian that was I mean he he wrote about the cardinal virtues and he talked about the life of faith"
"as well as anybody in the 20th century as a matter of fact. So he talks about leisure being focused in particular for many people on their spiritual goals. He knew what he was talking about."
"I love that."
"And so it's like yeah, I'm practicing leisure. I'm praying my rosary every night. You know, I'm making sure that I'm saying my devotions. I'm reading my Bible for 20 minutes a day. Leisure. Not that people think about it, but it really is."
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"Okay, keeping going into some of the book stuff. Okay, this is straight out of the book and I tee you up here. Um,"
"say no."
"Yeah."
"And boy, that's so hard. And I'm going to put myself on the block for our audience in a moment. But what are you teaching us in the book about what to say yes to, what to say no to?"
"Yeah. I mean, say no to a lot of things that are actually not part of the set of goals that you're setting for your life. And that means you have to be intentional about what you're doing. You have to know what you want so that you can know what to say no to."
"One of the problems that a lot of people have is they they go through life having their agenda set by other people. Y"
"and and that's look I understand I take a lot of opportunities that I didn't think of myself either. People, you know, they they offer me an opportunity to something that sounds really delightful and I don't say no because it's not I'm not rigid is what it comes down to. But the whole idea that that I can't say no to anything just because it sounds fun. Look, that's my problem, by the way. I mean, I I physician heal thyself. I mean, if you offer me, it's like, "Next, hey, next February, man. I got a speech for you at my nephew's bar mitzvah in Fairbanks in February, and you're going have to make balloon animals." And I'm like, "Fairbanks in February. I'm in." You know, because if it's far enough advance, and it sounds like cuz I'm a"
"I mean, I I my"
"What's the source of that for you?"
"Dopamine is the source of that for me, quite frankly, is my brain chemistry is I'm like, here's the interesting thing. So, the way to actually say no is the following. and then I'll tell you why I'm bad at it."
"Okay."
"This is good."
"The way to say no is to say if you if you're running a business,"
"you have multiple goals for your business. For sure. You have multiple goals for any business. I mean, you have a you have multiple goals for the business that you're running here at Ramsay. You need to know what they are and you need to have them in order. And you never you must never serve them out of order. So, if you've got four goals, goal number three can't be higher than goal number two. And if goal number two is not being served, you can't do goal number three. Here's how it works. The goal for my business, cuz I have a business. I have a company. I'm part of a company. And we we talk about, you know, teaching happiness to as many people as we possibly can. Here's the goal. Goal number one, serve God. Glorify God. Glorify God. Does it glorify God or doesn't it? And and we interrogate that seriously, me and my colleagues. Second, uplift people, serve people. Does this make people better or not? Third in importance also important have an adventure and have fun."
"And fourth make a living. Now that's a very privileged goal set. You know earlier in my life I couldn't have put make a living fourth. Now I can right because of a certain amount of financial independence. But again, you have to reorder your goals according to your circumstances and your and your priorities. So what does this mean? That means that I'll interrogate the things that are in front of me and I'll say okay, does it serve God? Look, there's lots and lots of things that are fun, but that that don't glorify God or serve other people and I don't do them in my business because they don't do one and two. That's how you actually stay serving the meaning of your life, which is the love and be loved in your case where, you know, talking about lifting people up and bringing them together in bonds of happiness and love, doing God's will using science and ideas is my complicated way of actually saying the same thing that you said. But keeping the order is really important. And when I screw up, it's because I put number three, have an adventure before number one and two. And that's my tendency because I'm like Mr. Dopamine,"
"you know, it's my brain chemistry, the locus ceruius in my brain like a fire hose spraying dopamine going, ah, there's going to be big rewards. So you get that experience and it's not and so I have to stop and I my I I asked my colleagues to hold me accountable and my wife to hold me accountable. Are are you using your time to to glorify God and serve other people"
"primarily? Or is this just like glorification and a fun time and a new experience and and"
"or maybe in my case and I think I probably represent a lot of people. I'm a recovering people pleaser and so I tend to say yes because I don't want to disappoint."
"Tell me more about this. So So um, I know about your career life but I don't know about your background. Where were you raised? You were raised in Virginia. Yeah. In the Tidewater Basin, right? Yeah. Down there."
"Pastor's kid."
"Pastor's kid. You're a PK."
"I am."
"No kidding. Was your dad a big shot?"
"No. Small church. Small church. What kind?"
"47 years. Southern Baptist."
"Southern. Are you a Southern Are you still Southern Baptist?"
"Pot potlucks and buffets."
"No, I got it, man. I got a lot of"
"No, I don't I don't label myself Yeah. with a denomination."
"You're a Christian man."
"Oh, yeah."
"So, um, but"
"not Catholic, obviously. I'm Protestant, but of a Baptist"
"uh Baptist light theology. Were you a good student?"
"No,"
"you were not. Were you?"
"Well,"
I was until middle school. I was Mr. Fun. Um, I was a leader at school. I was leading assemblies. Yeah.
Uh, but I I was not gifted in math and science. And so, the way I've described it before, and the audience has heard me say this, I I've somehow realized early on that I was never going to need to do that. M
And so in my immature uh you know teenage way just went I'll just barely do the minimum in those classes and it it created a lot of strife for my dad.
Yeah, I bet it did. Um, were you always successful?
Successfully. I was successful in the world's eyes. In the world's eyes. Yes. Except for math and science.
Yeah. I mean, nobody's good at everything, but in point, you were always popular. You always had a lot of friends.
Yes. So, there's a particular profile of people that have done really well in life. And nobody's going to look at Ken Coleman and say, "God, what a loser."
And they're going to look at you and say, "You're a famous guy. You're 52 years old. You have a successful family and you've got a huge show and you're successful in life."
Which is great. Which is great. But there's a dark side to it typically. And here's kind of what it looks like. A lot of people who are very successful, they start out in life learning a funny lesson, which is that they get the attention of adults and especially their parents when they do stuff.
And they achieve stuff. You get affection when you bring them a good report card or or you get acclamation for something that you do and you're really good at.
And the the problem with that is that you learn the wrong lesson as a child. You learn that love is earned. Now, we're Christian men and we know that love is a grace.
That's right. It's a free gift freely given.
That's right. Love can't be earned. It literally if you can earn it, it's not love.
That's right. And and but our little synaptically plastic brains, they learn the wrong lesson.
Yeah. And so strivers and pleasers, what they have in common is they grow up and they look for ways to earn love.
That's right. Now, the pathology of that comes if you're a successful person in business or at work is that you're you're bringing home bigger and bigger and bigger checks because you're trying to earn your wife's love or your wife is getting more and more and more cosmetic surgery so she can throw out fertility cues as if she were 28 when she's actually 58 because she's trying to earn your love.
That's probably the best description of what's happening in society on that that I've ever heard. I mean, it's just that was genius.
But a lot of couples are Look, I'm 61 years old, dude. And and a lot of couples my age where he's just trying to bring home as much money as possible and she's trying to look as young as possible because he's trying to throw out resource cues to her and she's trying to throw out fertility cues to him because they're trying to earn each other's love.
And it can't be done and that's why their marriage is failing.
That's exactly right. That's what it comes down to. So people who are pleasers and who are strivers, they're they're they're laboring under a misconception of what love actually is and they need more time on their knees.
That's right. Saying, "Give me the free gift, Lord. Give me the free gift."
That's right. That's right. That you just get to a point where it's I am enough and and it's okay. But what I'm I'm pointing out because there's a lot of pleasers that are listening and watching and they're trying to please their spouse and they're trying to please God and they're trying to please their kids and they're trying to please their church and they're trying to please everybody because they're trying to earn love.
That's exactly right. So what happens is you end up saying yes to things even in your work and those yeses are the source of your stress and burnout.
That's why I love that you take this on. I mean, this is deep level stuff because I think people are just terrified and and let's take it into something very practical in the shadow of what we just said.
People are afraid to say no to their boss.
Yeah. Because it's their livelihood and they think they're going to get fired. And maybe Arthur, because they don't know how to.
Right? So, let's get super tactical here. Okay, Arthur. Ken, I'm stressed out of my mind. I like where I work. I like the work. I kind of like my boss, but I don't. I'm just completely overwhelmed. I walk into the office and I'm already up to here.
Right? How do I say no to my leader?
Right? When maybe my leader is not even healthy and even capable of handling my no.
Yeah. So, the answer is turning it into a yes. And here's how you do it. The way to think about this is that people have a pathological relationship with lots of things that they say yes to that they need to say no to.
If you smoke cigarettes, you need to stop because your little friend wants to kill you, right? You know, you got a seven in 10 chance of dying of a smoking related illness if you don't stop, right?
It's bad for you. It's really bad. Everybody who smokes knows they need to stop smoking, but it's hard. You don't smoke, you don't stop smoking by saying no to cigarettes. You do it by saying yes to something else in its place. The way that you stop drinking alcohol is by saying yes to something else.
The way that that's what you need to do. And when it comes to work where you're saying yes to too much stuff because you're in a cycle, an almost addictive cycle of trying to get the approbation and praise of somebody and and the the the the you want to please somebody so very very much. You basically have to say here's what it comes down to. I want to say yes to these things. That's why I'm saying no to these things. And so you have to reframe it in your mind and the minds of other people. When you're saying no to something, it's not like this Gen Z, you know, boundaries, man. I know my rights and it's like I want I it's like after five o'clock, my time is my time. No, you don't need to do that. You absolutely, you shouldn't do that because all you're going to look is selfish.
Is to say find a way to express the fact that I want to do a better job on these things. I need to do a better job for you on these things. My highest and best use for you is these things. And here's how much time it actually takes me to do these things. And the problem is that I do a worse job on the higher things when I take on more things that are at a lower level. And that's how you manage up.
It's good. And people manage up. I've been managed up many times by really successful people. I have a colleague that I I've been working with 20 years. I love she's great. She makes me better in every way. She manages me. She always manages me because I'm demanding and I'm like and she's like, "No."
Rachel's like, "No, no, no, no. Here's what I need to do and I'm gonna say no to that because here's what I need to do because here's what you need me to do."
And I get it. Yeah. Stay there. So when they manage up and do what you just said.
What is the response of that leader most of the time? What can we expect?
Most of the time a leader who is actually a good leader will say, "Got it. That's even more valuable." Now, I understand how value is being created and that's the person who's going to want you to run forever. If he or she can't have you run forever. The bad boss is going to be like, "I told you to do that thing." But that's not a good boss. And there are a lot of bad bosses out there to be sure. And maybe that's a sign that you need a better boss.
That's exactly. Maybe you need to fire your boss.
I agree. I love that. Uh, okay. Some fun things that you take on in the book that I just the world needs to hear this. This is a bit selfish because I I need to confess at the root of this question, I would like you to be the czar of all meetings. So in this little fantastical moment, Arthur Brooks is in charge of all corporate activities and you set based on science and opinion. This is how you should do meetings.
Oh, meetings. Yeah.
Yeah. Because you talk about this in the book and the meetings thing drives me crazy. I am I have an aversion to meetings.
Yeah. Yeah.
Conversations I love.
Yeah. I got it.
All right. This is not a meeting we're having right now.
No, not at all. No. I'm energized by this. So,
What are the rules of meetings?
Yeah. If you were if you could sit every CEO, I don't care how big the company and you said, "Do it this way." Trust me, what would you tell them?
Cancel them.
Okay. Most meetings are not necessary. Most meetings actually exist because the meeting exists and it's just the the impulse to have a meeting because we're actually are together and we need to communicate with each other. Most meetings don't actually need to exist. Number two, only the people who need to be there are coming to the meeting. Number three, no meetings are more than 30 minutes. And part of the reason for that is that there's uh there's a whole lot of research on this. By the way, this is not I'm not shooting from the hip here. There's a ton of of really interesting managerial science on this. Most meetings, the big majority of meetings actually don't need more than 30 minutes. And when you bound them to 30 minutes, there's less throat clearing and less nonsense. Uh the the the the what is it? Sullivan's law that actually suggests that that a meeting will expand the time that you allocate to it. And I you know, I'm on a college faculty so man, I I have suffered a great deal and they're always 90 minutes and you know how the dean to a faculty meeting always starts the same way. The dean comes in, the department chair comes in, it's like, we got 90 minutes for this. We're not going to need 90 minutes for this so we'll just, you know, take as much time as we need and then and then we'll we'll we'll break early. You never break early. And the reason is because there's always like these six old dudes and and they say, "Okay, anybody else got anything else?" And you got this ridiculous democratic leadership model, which means everybody gets to speak.
That's right. Whether they got something to say or not. It's like, "Anybody else has like an old, you know, right?"
You know, it's like, "There we go." And then and then all and it's like a congressional committee meeting we see on TV.
Uh, I want to take the balance of my time and everybody's got to talk.
All right, let's go back. That's the problem. So that's these are the rules. Only the people who are involved, 30 minutes, cancel everyone that you possibly can.
All right. So I want to go back to that first one. Cancel. You're the meetings are just kind of there uh because of the meeting itself. And I wonder if what we've done is we've taken a task that we think is important and we say we can only accomplish that task in an actual meeting as opposed to going accomplish the task. For sure.
Is that what's happening?
Well, yeah. And you know, good bosses, they actually look at meetings in a particular way. They have sort of three things that they do in meetings.
Okay.
Number one is, um, I've made a decision and I want to tell you about it.
Okay. Number two is, I need to make a decision and I need help on it and I want to make that decision in this meeting. Number three is, we need to make a decision. I don't need to make it today, but I need you to help me think about it. And everything goes into one of those three categories.
And and and you categorize it literally. This is this is type A. This is type B. This is type C, right? And we're going to allocate time to these particular things. So number one is,
I want to tell you about this because I need you to be with me on this. That doesn't take that much time.
Right? And that's like D. And then you leave enough time so that people are like freaking out. You can actually deal with the emotions that that come from something if it's controversial like, "I got to lay off 25% of the staff."
You better have plenty of time for that, right? We need to make a decision. You better have a structured decision-making protocol for actually how that's going to work. Like who's going to talk, who's going to present, how much time they're actually going to do that. And the last part is brainstorming. And you got to make sure that you have a limited amount of time for brainstorming so it doesn't doesn't just turn into.
I love brainstorming meetings. They those give me energy.
Right? And though and there's all there there there are brainstorming protocols too, by the way. You know what a great brainstorming protocol for really creative bosses is? Okay, for the first five minutes, I want your worst ideas. I actually want your worst ideas because what actually happens is you stimulate a lot of creative thinking on the basis of your worst ideas. But structure it, man. Don't just like that's right.
Okay, let's get an idea. And I remember these. I've I've been in the worst meetings, um, sometimes called by me because I didn't structure things properly. And so just be more business-like about the way that you do all these things.
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All right, let's talk about you talk in the book about midlife crisis.
Yeah. And that's a real thing.
Yeah. Uh, so a two-part question.
Right? How do we guard against it? Keep it at bay. And then I'm also wondering, is it different for men and women?
Yeah. And if so, how?
Yeah. Yeah. So the midlife crisis is an overblown phenomenon and it actually doesn't come from very much research. It comes from a book called Passages by Gail Sheehy.
You remember that book?
I know of it. Because it was it was written it was published like what year were you born? 1974. Yeah.
So I think it was published 1972. And it has all these portraits of these really successful people that were going through midlife. One of them was John Delorean, believe it or not, and he was a GM executive who had reinvented himself. And he went on to found Delorean and get, you know, arrested for having 29 pounds of cocaine to finance his business. And suffice to say that that didn't end well. Anyway, so um, but the whole her whole point was that we naturally go through a crisis and that's what the midlife crisis is all about. That we go through this, you know, that's actually not true. Most people don't have a midlife crisis. What happens is that most people realize that they're not the same person.
Right? And you know, I've written a lot about that. I wrote a book called From Strength to Strength in 2022. And that's actually, I think, how we got connected in the first place was From Strength to Strength.
I just love that book. I mean, I love everything you do, but that book's phenomenal for people in this space. I want to call that out, dive into it.
And that was the the second half of life is really that is what that book is all about is how to understand the second half of your life with respect to your strengths.
Yeah. That's why it's called From Strength to Strength. And in Hebrew, that's the the Psalm 84. You know, he goes from strength to strength. Mel is what that is in Hebrew. It's a it's a Hebraic blessing. It's a Jewish blessing, as a matter of fact. And the whole point is that you have particular strengths in the second half of your life that you didn't have in the first half of your life. And if you're not conscious of them, you're going to try to keep doing what you did before. A midlife crisis comes when you try to live in the past.
Yes. And your strengths are changing, which means that some strengths are diminishing and you're focusing on what you're losing.
And you're not paying attention to what you're gaining.
That's the most important part about understanding the change in midlife. You have what's called fluid intelligence, which is focus. It's innovation. It's the ability to solve problems by yourself. That's your fluid intelligence. And you know, anybody who's watching us who's under 40 has got a boatload of fluid intelligence. And if they're really successful in their job, that's why. The second half of your life, which is largely increasing in your 40s and 50s, and it's real high in your 60s and 70s, called crystallized intelligence, which is pattern recognition. Your ability to mentor and coach, your ability to teach other people. You're not going to innovate as much. You're not. Your working memory is going to be poor compared to what it was in the past. You're gonna be less innovative. You just are. And that's fine. That's one of the reasons that the Rolling Stones don't write good new songs, right? Cuz they're like a hundred, right?
It's true. Their best songs were all written when they were in their 20s.
And best poets write their best stuff in their 20s. You know, that's what it comes down to. The star litigators are working in their 20s. The managing partners who have really successful firms are in their 50s and 60s because they're teachers and mentors. They're pattern recognizers. And so go from the innovator to the instructor.
Go for the version of yourself. The way that you avoid a midlife crisis is number one, I'm going to change. Number two is hopping on the right curve and saying, I'm going to change in the best way possible by anticipating what I'm going to get better and better and better at. As opposed to trying to stay what I used to be good at. Now, women are better at this. And part of the reason is because their lives more naturally change. You know, if you're a lawyer, for example, you got to engineer change into your life. If you're working on the cycle of stepping back from your career in whole or in part and having children and raising your children and then your kids growing up and then re-engaging in your professional life, that's just a natural cadence of change.
That's right. This is why a lot of women in their 50s will say to me, you know, my kids moved out and I got this career. I'm working at this nonprofit. I really, really love it. It's just so fulfilling. But my husband is really struggling. My husband, it feels like, you know, his career was going so well and now he's really unhappy and he's drinking too much and I'm afraid he's going to have an affair. That's what's going on. She just walked onto her second curve and he's struggling to find his.
Yeah, that's good. Yeah. How much of this so-called crisis is unmet expectations where you had big expectations and now you're middle-aged, whatever that is. And you're sitting there looking at life, you're going, I expected or I wanted life to be here. I'm measuring a little bit. It's not. And now I feel like I've underachieved. And maybe is that part of what happens there?
Absolutely can be because you get to the point where it's not just that you're in your fluid intelligence. You haven't done what you wished you'd done, but you're recognizing that your ability to do so is declining.
Correct. It's a two It's It's like two blades and a scissor. Right. In other words, it's not like I'm not at my goal, but also my my I'm running slower toward the goal. Running.
I haven't reached it and there's really low shot.
Yeah. It's like it looks like it's getting farther away.
Wow. That'll mess with you.
Yeah, it will mess with you. But the answer is to get on the second curve.
That's exactly right. That's how you do it. Okay, good. I'm glad I'm glad we talked about that. Okay, this is fun. Um, so we talked a little bit about my past and we we we we know where you are spiritually where I am and uh, you know, I grew up in a a true teetotaler world for people that are young and have no idea what that phrase means. It was
No swearing, no drinking.
I didn't even go to a movie until I was 17.
Holy mackerel. It was very legalistic. That very, very Baptist world. Now I don't say that as a criticism.
That's how my parents grew up, by the way.
That's what I grew up with. Okay. So, fast forward to where we are now.
Okay.
And I have no problem with people swearing.
You going to movies now?
I do. Yeah.
Burns.
I know. Right. Right. Oh, yeah. I'm a real heretic. Boy.
But I want to talk about swearing because you take on the case for mindful cursing. And when I saw this, the team and I were looking at the book and I said, "This I I want to end with this because it's fascinating to me." And I I'll let you roll, but I have a problem with where I feel like where I grew up, and that was way too legalistic. But even in the public life, you would never see a Ronald Reagan swear in a speech.
Yeah.
Swear in an interview, uh, maybe in a joke, right? And it would have been damn or hell and it that would have been it.
Mild. Very mild.
Very mild. And I feel like and I don't know when and it doesn't matter, but social media influencers, a space we don't think of ourselves as influencers, thank God, but everybody
Influential.
Yeah, I know. Everybody thinks that swearing on Instagram or swearing in an interview and now it's just gotten so over the top.
Yeah.
So with that, I just think it's too much. But you say in here that the case for mindful curses, that's got to be different than what I'm experiencing.
Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a couple of different things to keep in mind. Number one is public cursing is a bad idea. And the reason is because you're you're you're crossing all sorts of boundaries of decorum. And different people in different cultures view it in different ways. It's actually it's a you're doing something that is an assault on the sensibilities of certain people. And that's exactly why they do it.
People swear in public to be transgressive. Now, some, they they do it by accident. I mean, it's like, you know, I've seen people who are have have low levels of self-management skills and drop an F-bomb in a meeting and like, "Whoa, I bet he didn't say that on purpose, right? Whoops." Right? And and you know, which is a real problem. But when people swear, especially when they use sort of extreme profanity in public, is because they're trying to create an impact. And they're trying to create impact through transgression. And that's one of the worst parts about modern culture is the the idea of being transgressive for the sake of being transgressive. That's just getting attention is how that works. And that's an egotistical thing to do. That's a look at me everybody. Look at me. Look how daring I am.
Simplify transgression for people.
So transgression is to cross a boundary for the sake of crossing the boundary. I've crossed boundaries all many times in my life because I need to be over there on the other side of the boundary. But the idea of crossing the boundary because I want to I want to I want to do something that shocks you. Something that kind of that that jolts you. Or and by the way, here's kind of why people do it. There's a there's a little part of the brain called the parahippocampal gyrus. That's where you actually experience surprise. Most humor is based on surprise. And so the way that all jokes work is I take you down a particular path and then I and then I I jerk you away from it and you involuntarily laugh because I tweaked your parahippocampal gyrus. So for example, I've thought about how I want to die and I think it's like my grandfather peacefully in my sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Okay. So I mean.
You can't help but.
It's a dad joke. But the reason is because I tweaked your parahippocampal gyrus by first you imagine my grandfather lying in his bed and then you saw him behind the wheel of a bus or something like that. Like, oh, and you and sorting it out, it made you laugh. That's the basis of all humor, right? Now, too little and it's a dad joke. It's a pun. You're like, "H." By the way, that's why that's why dads tell dad jokes is when their kids are really, really little. They have a tender little parahippocampal gyrus. And so a stupid thing I'll say to my grandson Joey. He's two and a half. And I'll like I'll be like, "Hey Joey, do you like my new hat?" Right?
And he cracks up every single time. And so I'll do that for the rest of my life because that's, you know, why any good? Because he has a little tiny pair of hippocritis. Okay. Yeah, if you flick it too hard and you like make a joke about people dying right after a hurricane and people are like dying,
They'll be like, "What's wrong with you?" Because you hit it too hard.
You're always looking for the soft. You're looking for the spot. So, you go to a a comedy club, it's a different kind of flick than if you're actually hanging out at the Thanksgiving table with Aunt Mabel.
Right? You have to have prudential judgment.
Right? On this. And what people are doing is they're trying to flick the parahippocampal gyrus a little bit too hard so they can look clever by swearing in public.
Okay. And there's a whole bunch of Aunt Mabels out there and that's a hostile act that you just committed against.
Say that there is a case for mindful. So what is the mindful case? The mindful case is when you're around when you're in the cone of trust and the people that you actually know and you actually do it as a form of relief because there's a bunch of research that shows that when you say a nasty when you say a bad word, it makes you feel relief.
That's what I was getting.
Yeah. It makes you feel relief. It's like cracking your knuckles.
It's a chemical.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Now, there is a whole category of swearing that's involuntary and it's related to obsessive compulsive disorder or even Tourette syndrome and that's what it's actually a different literally a different part of the brain is motivating the the the way that you're verbalizing these ideas when you say suddenly like
Yelling swear words on the bus or something like that, that's different, right?
And that that actually does provide a form of relief when people have Tourette's and they involuntarily do something that provides a tremendous sense of relief. But that's neurophysiologically a different phenomenon.
When you on purpose, you drop a cuss word in front of your wife and it's okay.
Yeah.
That's relief.
It Well, and it's really fun because my wife, she's teach she's on that. She's not legalistic like that, but not a swear.
Yeah.
And you're right. When I do that and then she kind of chuckles.
A little four-letter word in front of your wife and that's because you trust each other and it's actually okay. It's all right.
And then she laughs at it. So I get the win from the laugh. But then I get the, "Uh oh, I'm not in trouble."
Yeah. I got away with something.
And that's the case for mindful swearing.
Okay, great. I love that.
It's only around the misses.
Yeah. Yeah. But I I think there's something to, you know, hanging around friends and stuff and and I'm going to derive off this because back to relationship. I've been very intentional over the last several years to uh develop deep friendships with guys that are not in my space. In other words, they do very different things professionally.
Right? And um, and I feel safe with them. And when we when we hang out, we don't talk about work.
What do you have in common?
What do we have in values?
You're Christians, probably mostly.
Yes. Yes. Although I didn't select them that way.
No. No. But it kind of works out that way because your closest friendships, your real friendships are ordinarily based around a a love for a common love for a third thing.
No question. And I would also say value system. So every one of these guys loves their wife.
Yeah. They've been married a long time.
Running around.
Yeah. They're not looking to mess up.
Yeah. They care about their kids.
Yeah. Uh, there are some value systems and then I would say there is some philosophies.
Dare I say some political.
Sometimes. Where you just you could sit and and I found that when you when you said that it's like every once in a while when I want to vent on something that I would never vent on with anybody else and I don't mean like go nuts, but I mean it's a cigar, right? Right. And some bourbon or rum is my choice. And we just sit around like rum.
I do enjoy rum.
You're like a Caribbean guy or something.
I am. I'm a pirate in the.
Sugarcane alcohol.
Yes. I just find it to be sweeter.
Which it is.
It is. Bourbon.
Anyway, point is, we'll sit around and every once in a while I'll tell Stacy, I'll go, "That," she'll go, "How was it?" And I'll go, "It was just so fun." And and it's because we all commiserate a little bit. We're not sitting around griping, but we are talking about things that we want to get off of our chest and it feels safe.
I don't think we do that enough.
Yeah, we don't do that enough. Actually, it's weird because in a way we don't do that enough, but in another way we do that too much. And so you need people around which you're safe to talk about these particular things, but you also it has to be really measured. And what a lot of people do is they they try to bond with everybody over negativity.
M. And so it's like the boss is a jerk and everyone knows the boss is a jerk and everybody's talking about how crummy this workplace is and and and pretty soon your entire social life is is you know, based around.
You brought that up. That's I don't like that.
Yeah. And that's gossip is actually another way to do that too. People will bond over trashing others.
That's it. And that's a really dangerous point. You know, all these guys I'm talking about, very positive.
Yeah. You're not like gossiping about the guy who's not there. It's like that jerk.
No. Because I don't want to hang around guys that aren't happy.
I know. Because number one, I am.
Yeah. And number two, that just drags me down. I I don't I don't need any more trials. So I don't, you know, now if it's a deep friendship and a guy says, "Hey, man, I need to hand you something heavy." I'm there. We're going to sit with them. Completely different. I'm talking about just.
It's the mindful swearing piece. And by the way, I find that I probably am a little bit saltier with those group of guys.
With a group of guys, of course. And I'm just trying to. And the boundary is a really interesting thing because it's like, you know, the fact that you might drop, you might use a four-letter word or maybe even drop an F-bomb, you know, in a does not mean that you want to go, you know, mess around on your wife, right?
On the contrary.
Completely different category of experience.
Yeah. 100%. Yeah.
Oh, so good. Yeah.
Okay, folks. What'd you learn? I know I learned a lot. And and a reminder here to if you got to rewind or go back and reflect on some of the things that Arthur said, I want you to take away something to make your life better. One thing I always try to do is challenge you with something that I'm going to take away. And I love the conversation on leisure.
Uh, there is I'm going to dive into that. I'm going to do some inventory in my life and uh, I think we will all be better if we really understand what real leisure is and then we're intentional for leisure. I challenge you to find some ways, do an inventory, and uh, focus on that maybe for 10 days, two weeks, and just see how's life a little bit different. I thought that was absolutely incredible. Thanks for joining us, everybody. And Arthur, you're a friend, and you're just such a blessing. I I could sit literally with you for hours and just let you go and go and go and go to one of these rum parties, man.
Well, we'll drop some.
Can I get the Catholic to have some rum? Catholics is part of the religion to drink.
Well, I thought Catholics were really into wine.
Yeah, I know. Actually, I don't drink alcohol.
But the truth is.
I knew that, which is why I was like, you're not meaning that.
I'll have a mocktail.
A mocktail is fine. We can do that. Maybe a lot of sugar, though.
Sounds good to me, too.
And what about the cigar? You're not inhaling.
I know your position on cigarettes.
I'm I'm a former smoker. The problem is.
Oh, the nicotine would be just enough to suck you back in. Maybe.
You just be. Who knows?
Well, I don't want to be that guy.
That's all right. I'll just secondhand smoke yours.
Hey man, thanks for being with us. So fun.
It's great to be with you.