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Churchill and the War on History | Larry Arnn

James Orr1:14:07

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Daryl Cooper 对丘吉尔的批评简直是无能。丘吉尔曾警告说,一场欧洲战争无论输赢都将是一场悲剧,他一直反对战争。>> 欲望是试图让世界符合行动者,符合你。而信念是试图让你自己,你的思想,符合现实的实际情况。>> 当你做出选择时,它的对错都蕴含在具体情况中,并且只有在这些具体情况中才有意义。如果唯一的仲裁者是我们运用科学方法来重塑社会,以达到我们选择的任何目的,那么除了意志之外,没有什么可以仲裁相互竞争的主张。是的。这意味着我们互相叫喊。我今天的嘉宾是 Larry P. An 博士。Anne 博士是密歇根州希尔斯代尔学院的第十二任校长。这是一所非凡的学府,是美国最伟大的博雅学院之一。但 Anne 博士也是丘吉尔的传记作家,而且不仅仅是任何传记作家,而是与伟大的 Sir Martin Gilbert 一起担任丘吉尔的官方传记作家。创作这部长达 31 卷的传记,这是有史以来为单一个人撰写的篇幅最长、最详尽的传记,这确实是他毕生的心血,直到过去 25 年领导希尔斯代尔学院。我们谈论了很多事情。我们谈论了领导国家、领导大学和其他机构,政府与大学之间的关系。我们谈论了历史,历史战争,为什么修正主义在英国左翼和美国右翼都抬头,以及更多的事情。欢迎来到《第一缕阳光》。Larry,很高兴你能来。我想先说一下我发现你身上最引人注目的地方,那就是你能够将非常非常成功的机构领导生涯与……不仅仅是任何普通机构的领导……结合起来。一所位于密歇根的博雅学院,希尔斯代尔学院,自 1844 年以来一直存在,并成为我们这些渴望某种古老牛津剑桥理想的人们心中的一座闪耀的城市,而牛津剑桥的某些部分仍然在努力实现这一点。一方面。另一方面,你拥有非凡的学术生涯,曾与 Sir Martin Gilbert 一起撰写了 31 卷的温斯顿·丘吉尔传记,这是有史以来为一个人撰写的篇幅最长的传记。我想问一下,你生活的这两部分是如何契合的?你是否能够将研究旷野和唐宁街的丘吉尔的技能运用到如何管理希尔斯代尔这样的机构中?是否就这么简单?领导力是否可以像那样被研究和学习,并且可以如此地可移植和可转移?>> 嗯,是的,这是可能的。我所知道的关于它的知识来自两个来源,嗯,我来自三个来源。我来自犯了很多错误,并试图不再犯这些错误,当然,这些错误是持续的,试图不再犯同样的错误。但是,我研究了亚里士多德,也研究了温斯顿·丘吉尔。2000 年来找我谈希尔斯代尔学院校长职位的人中,有一位拥有工商管理硕士学位,他讲着行话。工商管理硕士是由一位名叫 Peter Drucker 的美国人发明的,他实际上是在维也纳崭露头角的。他是第一次世界大战后维也纳非凡的知识激荡时期的一部分。这位工商管理硕士问我:“你是怎么学会管理的?”我说:“有几种方法,但其中一种不算。”他说:“是什么?”我说:“Peter Drucker 是我的房东,我认识他 30 年了。”他听了说:“哇。”你知道,他学了那么多。我说:“是的,那一种不算。我从来没有真正跟他学过。我只是认识他是一位非常伟大的人。”我说:“但首先,这是可能的,当你……领导力是在与他人一起选择和为他人选择的背景下进行选择。”>> 但生活就是选择。>> 所以亚里士多德在他的《伦理学》第六卷中解释说,当你做出选择时,它的对错都蕴含在具体情况中,并且只有在这些具体情况中才有意义。但其中也有一些真理需要寻找,这些真理与一些更大的、超出具体情况的东西有关,最终与永恒的东西有关。所以,选择是双重思维的,亚里士多德说,你无法了解这一点,因为具体情况一直在变化。你只能了解永恒的东西。但有些人很擅长,他们能够警惕具体情况,估量它们,虽然永远不完美,并从中找到真理。这就是理论模型。结果温斯顿·丘吉尔的写作方式也一样。他确实研究过亚里士多德。他在哈罗公学最好的导师是 JEC Weldon,他是亚里士多德的翻译家,也是 19 世纪末亚里士多德修辞学的权威译者,还有其他作品。所以,丘吉尔的想法是,他写道,你必须将你的生命钉在思想或行动的十字架上,然后他两者都做了。他是怎么做的?在我对那个人的回答中,我说,我认为我从丘吉尔和亚里士多德那里学到了很多,他们说的话一样。他说,说什么?我说,用丘吉尔的话来说,人类的保障和荣耀在于,领导容易,驱赶困难。>> 而你知道,丘吉尔不是一个绝望的人。>> 丘吉尔希望人们一起工作。>> 如果你这样领导他们,他们会喜欢,并且会在你无法控制的深刻层面上合作。这种亚里士多德式的智慧,非常务实和现实。我的意思是,人们经常批评柏拉图的《理想国》,说“书呆子怎么能管理一个国家?那些沉迷于对善的沉思的人怎么能真正管理洞穴呢?”我想,如果你看看柏拉图不太出名的对话录《政治家》,可能比《理想国》晚一点,而且可能在他试图教育并担任叙拉古暴君之子的私人导师的失败尝试之后,他算是经历了一次醒悟。这并不像他所认为的那么容易,他被卖为奴隶。>> 是的,没错。但在那部后来的对话录《政治家》中,柏拉图确实对政治家的技能可能包含什么有了稍微不同的理解,它不仅仅是关于成为一个书呆子。它不仅仅是关于擅长苏格拉底辩证法和沉思善,而是他有时使用织布工的形象。优秀的政治家能够理解实际情况、实际的紧迫性、限制和约束,然后以一种非常实际的方式将这些不同的技能编织在一起。你开始看到一种分歧,即使在柏拉图那里,亚里士多德显然也在继承。也许是在与亚里士多德的对话中,在更注重实践的人之间,他仍然沉浸并扎根于哲学,而哲学家现在扮演着一种更像“副驾驶”的角色。>> 是的。我有两个女婿,大儿子是柏拉图学者,他费尽周折才娶到我女儿。我对他说,告诉我柏拉图和亚里士多德有什么区别?他给出了我认为是正确的答案。最终,没多大区别。>> 你知道,这是师生关系。有 Lloyd Gerson 那本很棒的书,他是柏拉图主义的伟大学者,书名就叫《亚里士多德和其他柏拉图主义者》。>> 是的。所以,我认为那是对的。我认为亚里士多德在《伦理学》第六卷中强调了两件事,一件是做正确的事,这与知道不同。看,做正确的事是由情境决定的。他对此非常强调。他强调,当你做出正确选择时,你会发现一个真理。所以,在情境中,你会发现一些永恒的东西。而且,你知道,就像有些人喜欢说,这很简单。你只需要做正确的事。当然,但那是什么?>> 你知道,杀人是错的。杀希特勒是错的吗?>> 一切都是这样的。你所有的选择。所以,>> 就像我最喜欢说的一句话是,我不相信规则。>> 我学到了>> 尽管你是希尔斯代尔学院的校长,但你并不特别相信规则。>> 我不,你知道,不要制定>> 再多说一点。为什么?嗯,只有一条规则你可以记住,那就是要善良。>> 每个人都知道那是什么。所以,如果那是你的规则,是你压倒一切的规则,那么每个人都知道他们应该在这方面努力。>> 听你说话,我想,你知道,这似乎有道理。每个人都知道该做什么,深藏在心底。是的。是的。然而,在现代世界中,这是一个非常有争议的立场。即使听你谈论亚里士多德和柏拉图,我也可以想象人们会捂着头说,“但是,但是,约翰·罗尔斯怎么办?还有那些伟大的自由主义哲学家,他们告诉我们,我们都有不同的善的观念,为了在公共领域保持和平,我们应该对此保持沉默。我们应该……应该有一种程序上的不可知论。你可能会认为>> 这就是规则的产生,而规则如此复杂,它们就变成了执行者手中的武器>> 或者被执行者手中的逃避途径>> 而,而且,废除规则的第一个关键只有两个,那就是每个人都必须同意一个压倒一切的目标。就像一个伟大的事情要理解的是,如果你有权威,你的权威来自于你工作的使命和你工作的人。如果你没有这两样东西,你就没有权威。这意味着规则之一是尽你所能只与志愿者合作。而且,尤其是当你与 18 岁的年轻人打交道时,也就是大学新生,这要好得多。提前让他们知道,提前明确这一点非常重要。这就是为什么我们在希尔斯代尔学院有荣誉准则,因为他们去上大学,他们不知道那是什么。我的意思是,想象一个学生坐在你面前。你是一位博学的人,而他们不是。他们还年轻。你 18 岁的时候也不是,对吧?即使你天资聪颖,你现在也知道得更多,而且比 20 年后知道得多得多。所以,他们不知道自己在做什么。他们只能致力于一个目标。我要变得博学而善良。当你让他们……这就是我们的荣誉准则的作用。当你让他们致力于这个目标时,它伴随着信息,即这很困难,他们将不得不忍受。然后,事实证明他们屈服了,因为你看,当你 18 岁时,你已经到了完全选择的时刻,而你做的第一个重大选择就是去哪里上大学。这意味着如果你后来对这个选择感到不满,那就只会剩下怨恨。所以,你强调,我们确实……我们非常努力地在希尔斯代尔进行招聘,我们的招聘方式很像美国海军陆战队和英国皇家海军的招聘方式,那就是:这可能不适合你,太艰难了,你知道,这会很辉煌,但你必须忍受。>> 我喜欢这个词,我一直用它。有时我走在校园里,你知道,年轻人,你知道他们是什么样的。就在我们现在所在的剑桥,这是学期末。天气一直很好,他们都在外面,穿着短裤和 T 恤,笑着,字面意义上充满了春天的喜悦。所以,当然,希尔斯代尔也有这种情况。我们经历了冬天,让我们更加欣赏它。然后你会走过,他们会笑着聊天,我会看着他们,有人会抬头说,“我们在受苦,安博士。”听你说话,我想,我无法想象一种比这更反对当代大学概念的高等教育模式或哲学。>> 苦难的对立面。大学是一个应该被娇惯的地方。大学是一个应该让你感到安全、快乐、心理健康完好无损的地方。>> 并且,伴随着一种制度性的不可知论,关于我们应该培养的美德和价值观。>> 而事实上,你知道,年轻人确实会受苦,因为年轻人是人类。他们正在与生活的现实和挑战发生碰撞。大学,它们可能声称不可知论,但它们拥有各种各样的组织性意识形态视野。>> 并且它们正在推动一种特定的观念,即什么是繁荣的人,什么是公正的社会等等。>> 这是一个我认为非常令人痛心的、威胁文明的改变。>> >> 大学已经失去了对自身定位的认识。>> “大学”这个词的意思是伙伴关系。“大学”这个词的意思是许多事物围绕着一个中心旋转。而亚里士多德《政治学》的第一句话是,每个社区都追求某种善。>> 这真的很简单,不容否认。你们怎么能一起工作,除非朝着某个目标一起工作?必须有一些你们已经采纳的善。然后,你看,大学是在教会之外。它是人类社区的最高形式。它关注年轻人和老年人的成长,因为大学是为了其中每个人的成长。你在这里剑桥待了几年。你之前在牛津。你已经变成了一个不同的人,一个更好的人,一个更博学的人。而且你会在 20 年后,30 年后变得更加不同。所以,你会发现,它适合每个人的成长,并且必须就成长的方向达成一致,这很简单。任何一所大学,这所大学,我的牛津,哈佛,它们都以同样的方式开始:我们将学会成为善良的人,我们将学习自然界的一切,直到包括自然界中最高的事物,那就是上帝。如果它们存在了 150 多年,它们都会这么说。从来没有一所大学是为了其他目的而建立的。>> >> 这意味着,年轻人需要知道的是,首先,这是更高的。高是上升。你必须攀登。攀登很难。而且不是每个人都适合。每个人都需要大学里教授的基本知识。每个人都可以知道它们。每个人都可以。但它们的高级版本,那是为愿意和能够的人准备的。>> 所以,如果你加入这样一个社区,你就承诺你将以非常严肃的方式追求你的幸福。而且,你知道,这不像……你看,我们在这里有一场关于大学校园言论自由的斗争。而主张是,那是大学的全部目的。结果发现不是。它是一种必要的手段。>> 它是一种程序性的美德。它不是最终目的。它只是智力交流和追求真理的促成条件。>> 因为学习是一个过程,在每种情况下,都是改变你的观点,提炼它,提升它,改变它,抛弃它。没有学习,除了这个。>> 所以,如果大学里只有……那是世界上唯一一个你可以完全拥有自己观点的权利的地方,那么大学就变成了一群人互相叫喊,这就是美国精英大学正在发生的事情。>> 我认为这里少一些。但另一件事是,这是必要的,因为如果你不被解放去反驳自己的观点和别人的观点,你怎么能学习呢?>> 我最喜欢已故的伟大的 Roger Scruton 的一句话,我之前可能在这个播客上引用过,那就是,愿意改变自己的想法是拥有自己想法的唯一可靠标志。>> 这是一个非常好的建议。嗯,所以,我认为这一定有道理。从大学到多功能大学的转变,一定可以通过失去学习场所共享的协调视野来解释。这一切是为了什么?而教育可能仅仅是一种内在的善,而不是获得好工作或进入权力走廊的工具性手段的想法。我知道在美国,这里的情况不太一样,关于进步主义的起源,它首先作为一个学术运动出现,而这个运动说的是,没有超越的、持久的真理。唯一的真理是通过使用科学,现在科学被重新定义为技术制造东西,以及使用科学方法,我们可以将社会重塑成我们想要的任何样子。这意味着,在他们的核心,你知道,约翰·杜威,你可以在他身上找到它,你可以在 Frank Goodnow 身上找到它,你可以在伍德罗·威尔逊身上找到它,他,你知道,比任何人都更将它带入政治,但首先是在普林斯顿。关于宪法是一份过时的文件,属于另一个时代的想法。我们需要的是科学、技术,伟大的行政国家的机器。>> 所以,这是一个过程。科学方法是我们将重塑一切的过程。而问题在于,在他们看来,这并没有出现,尽管他们对它感兴趣。它是权力对社会的运用。所以,你邀请 18 岁的年轻人进入其中,他们充满野心,却知之甚少,他们要自己去处理。如果你想知道为什么一群学生可以在过去 15 年里多次关闭美国几所最伟大的大学,以及“我也一样”、“黑人生命很重要”,现在是“加沙”,他们怎么能阻碍大学的运作而无人过问?答案是,他们正在实践他们所学的,那就是实现他们的意志而不是学习。而且,你知道,而且,如果唯一的仲裁者是我们运用科学方法来重塑社会,以达到我们选择的任何目的,那么除了意志之外,就没有什么可以仲裁相互竞争的主张了。>> 是的。>> 这意味着我们互相叫喊。这是 Elizabeth Anscombe 曾经做过的绝妙区分,她曾是剑桥大学的教授,当然,她是一位非常非常伟大的哲学家,战后时期的伟大亚里士多德主义者。她经常和学生们一起使用这个区分:欲望是试图让世界符合行动者,符合你,而信念是试图让你自己,你的思想,符合现实的实际情况。这两种……这两种交通方式是相反的。但我认为,在高等学府,尤其是在那些被文化战争所瘫痪的大学里,人们往往是想先改变世界,而不是先去理解它或形成关于它的正确信念。>> 就是这样。而且我们真的无法确切地知道很多事情,但有一件事我们可以知道,那就是我们创造的东西。>> 现在,这是我们的。我们是创造者。就是这样。显然,这是愚蠢的。你知道,结果发现它不方便,但却是真的。人类仍然以他们一直以来存在的方式产生。他们仍然过着有限的生活。现在更长了,但不是无限长。你知道,世界上所有的技术都无法改变我们出生、衰老和死亡的事实,就像地球上所有动物一样,也无法改变我们是唯一知道这一点的事实。>> 我有时认为,我们这个技术崇拜时代的特征之一是,它允许了一种我称之为“零年心态”对待过去,对待历史。而 CS Lewis 曾称之为“年代学傲慢”,即任何古老的东西都应该被贬低。直到现代到来之前,一直存在着混乱和延迟。作为一名历史学家,我想问问你是如何应对的。我想你第一次引起我注意大约在 2018 年或 2019 年。我听说过希尔斯代尔,也听说过你,但当我第一次开始关注你时,最让我震惊的是在所谓的“1619 项目”之后。我知道那在美国是多么动荡的一年,在英国也是如此,因为我们几乎立即就引进了它,2020 年乔治·弗洛伊德被杀后的那个夏天。作为回应,特朗普总统成立了一个委员会,邀请你担任主席,即所谓的“1776 委员会”。能稍微谈谈这件事吗?你当时是怎么想的?而且,你是怎么做的?我的意思是,这是一种不寻常的情况。当然,希尔斯代尔以不接受联邦政府的任何资金而闻名,以珍视其独立于国家而闻名。然而,希尔斯代尔的校长却接受了担任这个有争议但我认为是紧迫且非常重要的项目的委员会主席的提名。所以,请稍微谈谈那个非凡的时期。嗯,首先,你知道,我花了很长时间研究美国革命。而“1619 项目”简直是一场闹剧。它不是。所以,美国历史学家中的权威是一位名叫 Gordon Wood 的人。据我所知,他不是一个保守的人。他是哈佛大学已故的 Bernard Bailyn 的学生,这两位先生在过去两代人中一直是美国历史的权威。他在谈到《纽约时报》“1619 项目”的说法时说,马萨诸塞州和其他殖民地建立的目的是为了建立和延续奴隶制。他们是这么说的。而 Gordon Wood 的回应是,你知道,如果是我,我会更强调这一点,我也做到了。但他确实说了这句话:没有殖民者写过这个。当然,如果没有人写过,我们就没有证据。你看,所以它不是真的,对吧?历史的真相就在历史中。而亚里士多德写道,我最喜欢的一句话是,这一点连上帝也无法否认,那就是让已发生的事情不发生。所以,是的,特朗普总统热爱美国,明年将是 250 周年庆典,这仅仅是因为他赢得了选举,否则就不会是这样。他想澄清这一点,所以他任命了一个委员会,并请我担任主席。我接受了。那是在选举之前,但时间不长,大概是 2020 年 9 月。我们看到选举结果悬而未决,我们认为我们应该开始工作了。所以有阳光法案。这意味着如果你们有超过一定数量的人,你们就不能私下会面。我们想遵守,也遵守了。但我们立即决定,我们将首先发布一份报告。我们在第一周就开始写作,并按照规定和正确的方式进行了传阅。我们收到了所有人的评论,并将其定稿。我们召开了三四次公开会议,媒体也在场。在最后一次会议上,我们一致通过了报告,然后发布了。这发生在报告发布时,大概是 1 月 3 日左右。然后拜登就职,在他总统任期的前一个半小时内,他废除了该委员会。所以,我们的预测是正确的,但我们还是发布了报告。你知道,报告说了两件事。美国革命是关于什么的?如果这是你的问题,你应该读读他们写的东西,因为他们写了它是什么。你知道,你可以称他们为骗子,如果你愿意,但你必须从他们写的东西开始。你知道,然后有大量的分析,当然他们写了很多。所以有很多东西可以读,但它始于一份约 1350 字的文件。你可以在 10 分钟内读完。而且,在我看来,它非常优美,值得一生中一遍又一遍地阅读。所以,是的,你从那里开始。然后我们解释了,这种说法从何而来,报告中对此进行了分析。这是一本小书。所以,这是一个声明,我们当时认为,我们可能永远无法好好庆祝有史以来最伟大的政治文献的 250 周年纪念,但至少可以做这些。而特朗普再次获胜,出乎所有人的意料。所以现在我工作的学院被邀请制作一系列 10 到 15 分钟的视频。大约有 20 个。其中六个现在可以在白宫网站上看到,我们探讨了《独立宣言》的意义以及导致它的事件。第一个是我的介绍,第二个是关于列克星敦和康科德战役,那里响起了震惊世界的枪声,英国暴君被击败了。>> 我去年夏天带家人去了那里,一个辉煌辉煌的地方,我流下了眼泪,我们失去了你们所有人,我们无法让美国再次成为大英帝国。>> 嗯,你永远不知道。我一直这么说。>> >> 你随时受欢迎。>> 是的。嗯,你知道,我娶了一个英国女人,她是我的生命之光,我一生都在研究温斯顿·丘吉尔。>> 是的。>> 我一直相信,如果伯克和皮特是国王的主要顾问,>> 皮特尽力了,不是吗?在 1760 年代末。>> >> 而你知道,伯克是法国大革命的敌人,也是美国人的朋友。>> >> 是的。>> >> 他这样做并不矛盾。>> 是的。没错。>> 而不是,可怜的国王有格伦维尔和汤森德那些家伙。那些家伙是白痴。这就是为什么,这就是为什么我们今天不是候选人。>> >> Larry,让我稍微深入探讨一下,因为你知道,我知道你和我一样,都非常重视宪法和《独立宣言》。>> 但我想,在美国的某些宪政右翼圈子里,有一种倾向,就是对它有点过于理想化,认为它凭空出现,你知道,在 1770 年代和 1780 年代凭空出现。我的意思是,你知道,19 世纪初伟大的法国反动派 Joseph De Maistre 写了一本有趣的书,他认为宪法并不能造就一个国家。宪法反映了一个民族。它们可以说是特定民族在特定地点的凝结结晶残余,提供了一种秩序化的理性。>> 但实际上,宪法并没有像一些人认为的那种普遍适用性。这实际上是特定原则、思想、新教伦理、启蒙思想、英国普通法以及经历过各种变化(尤其是人口结构变化)的美国所结出的果实,它不再适合 18 世纪末的理想,而这些文件正是这些理想的精华。>> 嗯,我可以通过丘吉尔来解释这一点。我认为真相兼而有之。>> 丘吉尔做了一件亚伯拉罕·林肯从未做过的事。他在 1918 年独立日发表了关于《独立宣言》的演讲。他多次重复了同样的主题,包括他在 1946 年富尔顿发表的伟大的“铁幕”演讲。>> 在富尔顿,密苏里。>> >> 是的。在两个地方,他都剖析了《独立宣言》,并将其解释为英语民族的第三个伟大的自由契约,>> 在《大宪章》和 169 年的《权利法案》之后。>> >> 是的。>> >> 而你知道,丘吉尔是一个非常巧妙的人。他把我们分离的文件变成了我们之间的团结基础。他说,通过它,我们失去了一个帝国,但通过学习它的教训,我们保住了帝国。>> 丘吉尔一直认为大英帝国是为了自由。>> 所以,>> >> 换句话说,有一些思想,这些思想传播开来,影响了皮特和伯克,例如。>> >> 但然后,我们得到了一个独特的机会。美国是一个独特的地方,它与英国有关。但发生的是,文明从欧洲迁移,以家庭的形式。法国人和西班牙人派来了传教士和士兵,而英国人则派来了家庭,他们遍布大陆,他们有 150 年的时间来思考。他们没有带来贵族。所以他们是……我们谈论了在大学里如何成长,他们在大陆上成长,学到了很多东西。例如,他们学到了一些他们以前不理解的东西。他们学会了宗教自由。>> >> 罗杰·威廉姆斯与约翰·温斯洛普的分歧,罗德岛的建立。>> >> 因为加尔文主义者,清教徒,那些家伙,他们来到美国,不喜欢英国对他们实践和信仰的限制。所以他们打算建立,这是一个巨大的大陆。我们不知道它有多大。很长一段时间我们都不知道它有多大,但我们可以建立宗教一致性的社区。>> 他们制定了严格的法律,然后他们发现行不通。>> >> 他们正在复制他们试图摆脱的条件。>> >> 大陆有多大都不够。所以他们采纳了自由。这是一个发展,对吧?这得益于他们开始时的惊人条件,但他们知道文明的主要元素。这是独一无二的,再也不会发生,因为没有大陆可以这样做了。>> >> 是的,所以他们,然后它……丘吉尔你知道,在第二次世界大战中,他们炸毁了议会大厦,你知道,议会大厦非常拥挤,座位不够,而且不是半圆形。你走进去,你看着议长,政府在左边,反对派在右边。你有两个选择。你要往哪个方向转?这迫使做出决定。>> >> 丘吉尔本人也两次跨过这条线。>> >> >> 是的,他做到了。这真的很难。这真是令人震惊。他说。>> >> 但建筑师们喜欢这个演讲。这个演讲包含这样一句话,你只需要去掉“建筑”这个词,换上“宪法”这个词:我们建造我们的建筑,然后它们塑造我们。>> >> 这个议事厅必须有一种拥挤和紧迫感。当没有多少事情发生时,仍然有足够的人,看起来很重要。当有大事发生时,则站无虚席。我们必须保留它。我们必须保留它每次进来时都迫使做出选择的性质。这就是他们不建造它的原因,因为他们计划建造得更大。但他恰好是首相,他理解这个议事厅。>> >> 那么,这意味着,如果我们英国的立法能够重新集中在下议院,而不是像现在大多数法律是由监管机构制定的,就像在美国一样,如果我们能把它重新放回那个议事厅,它就会再次填满,人们会变得更健谈,事情也会……他们不会制定那么多法律,他们可以通过这个过程。他们会以一种每个人都能理解的方式来辩论它们。这就是他试图保留的。这意味着建筑在演变,但你知道,它是一个 17 世纪的王室财产,每年以一英镑的价格从国王那里租用。但它塑造了那里的实践。所以它是为了实践而建造的,然后它塑造了实践和原则。>> >> 所以,你知道,在亚里士多德的因果关系列表中,有物质因、效率因、形式因和目的因。在美国,目的因很容易确定,它在《独立宣言》中说明了。形式因是宪法。这两份文件是兼容的。现在,宪法比《独立宣言》的普适性要差得多,因为它适用于……首先,我们有这些殖民政府,后来变成了州政府,它们实际上拥有比联邦政府更广泛的权力,尽管我们在这方面做了一些我不喜欢的改变。>> >> 但,是的,还记得我们谈论过实践智慧以及它如何必须看向永恒的东西吗?它必须考虑具体情况。>> 《独立宣言》更偏向永恒,《宪法》更偏向具体情况。>> >> 很有可能,物质因是最不重要的,或者亚里士多德最不感兴趣的。但我想,为了继续这个类比,这实际上是现在许多西方国家面临的问题,我们……我们知道我们是什么了。我们已经(在某种程度上)弄清楚了我们的目的因。>> 我们已经弄清楚了我们的形式蓝图。我们知道宪法是什么,即使我们这里没有一个很好的成文宪法。我们已经……有相当多的成文宪法,我们也知道惯例是什么。但一个国家的根本物质因是它的人民。>> >> 在公共政策和公共领域,我们现在正面临关于什么构成一个民族的问题。>> >> 特别是在多元文化主义、自由多元主义的时代,我们越来越难将自己视为一个民族。>> >> >> 你的副总统一年前发表了一篇精彩的演讲,他说,我认为标题是“美国是一个民族,而不仅仅是一个理念”。>> >> 它不是一个命题,它首先是一个地方,一个家。>> >> 我认为许多西方国家都在为此挣扎。>> >> 不仅仅是通过大规模移民、人口结构变化,还因为许多许多地区面临的人口悬崖和生育危机,以及一种进步精英阶层,他们实际上在训练我们的年轻人去憎恨国家名义上的所有东西,以及那些可以帮助我们实现这些目标的蓝图。>> >> >> 有没有办法解决这个问题?>> >> >> >> 教育能做到吗?>> >> 副总统 Vance 有一位出色的向导,我认为他会扩大这个论述,因为有两个方面。首先,一个国家的物质原因是土地和人民。>> >> 在我们两国,两者都极其重要。在美国,大陆会议于 1775 年召开,并将其命名。1776 年,他们组建了大陆军。但直到 1807 年他们才知道大陆有多大。>> >> 温斯顿·丘吉尔在许多地方,在他的最后一部大作《英语民族史》第一卷的序言中非常优美地描述了英国是一个岛屿。>> >> 所以,这个民族首先没有选择,只能成为一个航海民族。>> >> >> 正如戴高乐所说,当我们第一次申请被考虑加入欧洲经济共同体时,我们是一个海洋国家。>> >> >> 你不应该加入。>> >> >> 你不是一个大陆国家。>> >> >> 就像古雅典一样。>> >> >> >> 除了这里更多。北海和英吉利海峡非常汹涌。>> >> >> 是的。>> >> >> 如果你能航行绕过它们,你就可以去任何地方。>> >> 第二件事是他们必须使用它。我曾经在牛津输掉了一个赌局,因为有人说,“英格兰没有一个地方离海超过 50 英里。”我跟那个人打赌了一英镑,他说,“哪个地方?”我说,“牛津。”结果发现,它是最远的,距离 48 英里。>> >> >> 这是一个不错的猜测,但……>> >> >> 如果你是德国、法国或西班牙,你都需要一支大军。西班牙因为有山,稍微少一些。>> >> >> 这加强了国王。>> >> >> 在国王与其他阶级之间的冲突中。>> >> >> 在英国,你需要海军,它在陆地上没什么用。>> >> 所以,丘吉尔认为,生活在土地上的人们变得相对自由,因为他们因自由而变得繁荣。他们变得众多,然后他们开始走向世界。他认为自由和帝国,自由的传播和贸易来自于土地和人民的结合,就像我们制定了宪法,现在它塑造了我们,除非我们自己废除它。顺便说一句,英国有土地,它影响了他们,塑造了他们。所以,美国人和丘吉尔说,我不知道这是不是真的,但他认为,英国与大陆分离只有大约一万年。他认为这至关重要。所以,在他的向导的指导下,如果你不知道,那就是这个人。>> >> 他将把他的论证扩展到包括所有四种原因及其丰富性。太棒了。我认为这其中有很多真理。>> >> 让我们回到丘吉尔。>> >> >> 正如我在开头提到的,你是他的合作传记作家。你投入了多年的生命,付出了非凡的努力,与 Sir Martin Gilbert 一起完成了这个项目,甚至丘吉尔的儿子,我想在他去世前写了第一卷。>> >> 丘吉尔感觉就像一个既古老又常新的形象。>> >> 每个人都在谈论他,每个人都在引用他。>> >> >> 我记得大约十年前,这里在英国的一次民意调查中,他轻松地获得了“有史以来最伟大的英国人”的称号。>> >> >> 然而,近年来,你知道,我们看到英国左翼出现了这种攻击性的修正主义,他在议会广场上宏伟的雕像在弗洛伊德事件的夏天被涂鸦了“种族主义者”一词。>> >> 在剑桥丘吉尔学院举行了极其怀疑和批评的会议。>> >> 他卷入了帝国战争,因为他被指控对英属印度等地的看法。>> >> 但最近在美国,在美国右翼也出现了这种……这种播客历史学家。我想到 Daryl Cooper,他被称为 Martin Made,我想这是他的播客。我没怎么听过他,他提出的论点是,实际上丘吉尔并不是我们应该把他看作的英雄,他……他有一种……在挑起第二次世界大战方面存在一种共谋,尤其是在让美国卷入其中时,而美国实际上并不需要卷入其中。>> >> >> 谈谈那件事。首先,我想,他们错在哪里?而且,你认为是什么驱动着它?是什么驱动着这种敌意?>> >> >> 嗯,在美国,左翼和右翼的驱动因素不同。>> >> >> 首先,争论是什么?Daryl Cooper 声称温斯顿·丘吉尔想要第二次世界大战,他为了波兰把英国拖入了战争,而这顺便说一句,只是历史事实。温斯顿·丘吉尔在给予波兰保证时并不掌权。没有就此事咨询他。他直到 1940 年 5 月 10 日才成为首相。>> >> >> 是的。而保证是在八月给出的。>> >> >> 他们没有和他谈,而且……>> >> >> 他还在旷野里。他在后面。>> >> >> 是的。而第二件事是,这是基本的历史事实,对吧?这就像说太阳从西方升起一样,对吧?它要么升起,要么不升起,你知道,这些事情就是不真实的,对吧?有人说丘吉尔想要战争。事实上,他从 1901 年第一次在议会发表重要演讲以来就一直在反对它。他警告说,一场欧洲战争无论输赢都将是一场悲剧。他一直反对它。他后来证明了这一点,因为他一直在寻找一种方式来结束战争,如果他卷入其中,寻找一种方式来阻止它们,从一开始就足够强大。>> >> 他在第二次世界大战中赢得了荣耀,但他的称号,他在写作中也一直使用这个称号,那就是“不必要的战争”。如果我们做了我们应该做的事,我们就不会卷入其中。>> >> >> 他认为他预测到这将使英国失去其伟大,而他只冒险,这是他的论点,现在这个论点可能是对的,也可能不对,这是判断。>> >> >> 还有更……所以,Daryl Cooper 对丘吉尔的批评简直是无能。>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 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>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>

任何事情。我认为有两个共和党政府也这么想。因此,我们着手在伊拉克和阿富汗建设民主。我们花费了巨额资金。我是说,国家债务失控,大幅增加。我们没有做到。我想在伊拉克仍然有机会。阿富汗是一场惨败。我们认为我们可以做任何事情。有趣的是,我们认为我们可以以温斯顿·丘吉尔的名义这样做,声称他曾试图在伊拉克这样做,这是另一个公正的,你知道,他们因此把他的半身像放在椭圆形办公室里,因为他是一个在20世纪20年代在中东伊拉克展示了如何进行国家建设的人。

是的。他们动机的问题。他们是这方面的唯一专家,但我知道他们是这么想的,我知道他们放了半身像,所以这是一个合理的推断。是的。是的。我和一些重要人物谈过这件事,我说:“但你们知道那不是真的。”他们说:“不。”我说:“嗯,不,他是在第一次世界大战后担任殖民地大臣,当时奥斯曼帝国崩溃了,整个中东都处于被争夺的状态,自1550年左右以来一直由奥斯曼人统治。”第一次世界大战快结束时,英国政府内部有一场争论。顺便说一句,第一次世界大战结束时,结束战争的德国主要攻势始于1918年3月。然后,他们几乎到达了巴黎郊外,这是整个战争中第二次伟大的推进。所以情况很危急。然后德国军队哗变,他们基本上崩溃了,战争突然结束了。所以,并不是每个人都在说,你知道,我们现在安全了。我们有一年的时间来解决这个问题。第一次世界大战,第二次世界大战更像是那样。他们认为从1944年开始就赢了。甚至43年。

我是说,丘吉尔认为他在1941年12月8日听到了珍珠港的消息时就赢了。我好像记得。你知道,希特勒比斯大林狡猾,因为他设法与战争中可能证明是最强大的两个国家为敌,而且不必要地入侵一个,向另一个宣战。他,斯大林没有,斯大林杀的人更多,可能更危险,尽管这很难说。在20世纪30年代和40年代,他对于英国来说并不那么危险,因为德国更近,而且拥有强大的战争机器。

在剑桥和白厅等地有一些制造麻烦的间谍,但总的来说,这不是一个生存威胁。

你知道,这里有一件有趣的事。你知道中东的许多复兴党都是由古斯塔夫创立的吗?

有一些奇怪的共谋,某些形式的阿拉伯民族主义。

是的。

和社会主义,你知道,他们很有效。他们在进步。

但是,所以,当苏联解体时,我们得到了这个惊人的体系,我们认为我们可以做任何事情。你知道,我们可以做任何不不可能或不切实际的事情,这些都是重要的限定条件。所以现在有了反弹。现在,打这些战争没有任何理由。我们正在努力回归。你知道,现在有很多关于第二次世界大战的关注。我们不必卷入其中。你知道,我们应该保持,保持不介入。

最初的美国优先运动和野心,那里有一个问题。

一种纯粹的孤立主义。

没错,更纯粹。然后,如果他们赢得了关于第二次世界大战的战斗,我相信他们不能,因为如果你错了,最终就赢不了。内战将是下一个,这是一个老问题,然后,然后,美国革命。

嗯,关于第二次世界大战的说法有什么不对呢?日本袭击了我们,德国向我们宣战。确实我们对他们犯了罪。我们让日本难以从我们这里购买石油和橡胶。我们向英国提供援助,而不是德国,并且至少在北大西洋的一半路程上保护了我们的船只。所以我们站在一边。如果这证明了他们向我们宣战是正当的,那么我们出售的那些东西就不是我们真正的东西了。

如果你拥有一件东西,并且你想要,你可以卖给任何人。你知道,不卖给帝国日本或德国是有充分理由的。所以你看,这意味着一种对任何强者都卑躬屈膝的外交政策。而这并不是美国的论点。美国的论点,你知道,我们最长的外交政策论点正是源于英国的海洋自由。

是的。

强大的海军来保护它。

所以关键是那个论点行不通。

而且,而且,现在我们可以做任何事情了。

所以什么都没有。

这就像从国家建设时代的理想主义突然转向了现在的严格孤立主义。世界,世界其他地方不是我们的问题。事实上,看起来特朗普政府既不是孤立主义者也不是理想主义者,而是从一开始就复兴了修昔底德使之闻名的老派国际现实主义学说。你必须,你必须对这些地缘政治参与者的动机持开放态度。我以为,首先,如果你读过温斯顿·丘吉尔,你就不会认为是他把世界拖入了第二次世界大战。他讨厌它。到处都是。我认识一位美国的拉比,我不会说出他的名字,但他是我的一位朋友,他是一位备受尊敬的人。我叫他,他叫迈尔斯·索利维克。

我也非常欣赏他。一位杰出的人。我不认识他,但我认识他的著作。我们共进了一顿美妙的晚餐,他是一位博学的男人。所以,当然,他想和我争论温斯顿·丘吉尔。他是一位非常迷人的人。所以,我们共进晚餐。这太有趣了。他说丘吉尔就是喜欢战争。我说:“嗯,他擅长战争,他喜欢战争的某些方面,但他也很害怕战争。”他说:“不。”我说:“是的。”他说,嗯,他说我的朋友安德鲁·罗伯茨勋爵,他是我的一位朋友,也是一位非常伟大的丘吉尔历史学家。

也许是单卷本丘吉尔传记中最好的一本,或者其中一本。你会这么说吗?

当然,还有马丁·吉尔伯特,他写了一卷。

当然,他的书真的很好,你一定要读,它叫《与命运同行》,这是一部杰出的作品。

而且他总的来说,他是一位非常有才华的好人。他说:“我的朋友安德鲁·罗伯茨告诉我,我是对的。”我说:“是的,那是一个非常伟大的权威。他非同寻常。”但是,你知道,我更多地在思考温斯顿·丘吉尔。他说了什么?我说:“你读过丘吉尔的一篇题为《我们都要自杀吗?》的文章吗?”他说:“嗯,没有。”我说:“哦。”然后我说:“你读过丘吉尔的《世界危机》第一章关于第一次世界大战的内容吗?”他说:“没有。”我说:“哦。”所以,你知道,我的意思是,

他在那篇文章和《世界危机》的开头争论了什么?

《我们都要自杀吗?》这是1927年的。

嗯,这是一个1929年的记忆测试失败。嗯,这是一个逻辑问题。嗯,它非常有力。他说,人类历史的第一个句子就是战争,我将转述第一段。他说,在史前时代,无休止的冲突似乎是常态。

从那时起,战争从未停止。起初,他们用棍子打。然后是刀子,然后,尽管他们尽了最大的努力,他们也无法杀死所有人。现在我们进入了一个新时代。我们有了科学,我们有了不同的武器。我可以大致引用一下。人类从未处于过这样的境地。在美德没有明显提高,也没有得到更明智的指导的情况下,他终于掌握了自我毁灭的手段。死亡正恭候在侧,沉默,预期,等待着那个长期以来一直是它仆人的脆弱生物的一声令下。现在,有史以来第一次,它成了它的主人。

这相当严峻。是的。

他担心,你知道,我可以告诉你,我的信念是他从中学到的。我知道这是他第一次写到它,是在1898年,在喀土穆郊外,在奥德曼战役中,他第一次看到机关枪,当时是新式马克沁机枪和火炮,对一队骑兵发起冲锋的军队进行部署。他们冲过了一英里开阔的地面,丘吉尔毫无同情心。这是第一个激进的伊斯兰共和国,在真主的名义下与西方开战。他们杀死了戈登将军,中国戈登,

英国的民间英雄。

四处征战,你知道。嗯,所以他们组织了一次远征,他们在尼罗河的浅水区修建了一条铁路,他们将一支现代化军队装上铁路,然后将其发射出去,将炮艇放入其中,他们驶向下喀土穆,他们摧毁了。丘吉尔在描述这场战斗时,这是他早期最好的书之一《奥曼战役与河战》中的一章。他说:“白旗从山坡上飘来。他们没有意识到即将到来的悲剧。”

悲剧。

是的。

你看,他不喜欢那些人,对吧?

他以说“我宁愿乔治也不愿战争”而闻名。

是的。

然后,当他描述英国军队时,他描述了他们冲锋,有汗水、鲜血、尖叫和金属呼啸声,他们冲了上来。然后,当他描述英国战线时,他说步兵稳稳地、坚实地开火。过了一会儿,这项工作变得乏味,尽管他们仍然可以保持兴趣。每次他们开火时,阵地上的人似乎都越来越少。与此同时,士兵们搬运弹药带,更换水箱上的水,以免它们融化,并将炮弹送入火炮。你看到,他描述的是一个工厂,他没有归功于

机械化屠杀。

他不仅将勇气归功于德尔维希人,也归功于英国人。然后他说,那个最接近英国战线的德尔维希士兵,离他们有150码远。他们彻底消灭了他们。

没有更近了。

丘吉尔心想,我的天哪,

这改变了一切。

是的。而且,你知道,这和他以前看到的不一样。

所以,他会欢迎,甚至煽动第一次世界大战或第二次世界大战的想法,这简直是荒谬的。丘吉尔写这本书时25岁,他要去打仗。丘吉尔很有野心,你知道,去打仗,然后他是所有战争中最博学的记者,他写了畅销书,赚了很多钱,出名了,并在战争中崭露头角。他很勇敢,所以他有充分的理由。这是一场非常受欢迎的战争,对吧?因为他们杀死了中国戈登,他们是坏人。他们是,而且丘吉尔,他这样做是为了他的野心。对。后来在南非,他在一列装甲列车上。昨晚。

你妻子的亲戚有一个祖先参与了丘吉尔的越狱。家族传承下来,他抛弃了他的狱友,他是唯一一个。

他利用了逃跑路线,而他们却没能利用,而且搞砸了。这有点家族传说,有点曲折。

但那确实可以追溯到一个因为这件事而对丘吉尔不满的人,他当时在那里。所以,你知道,他,但他成了一个战争英雄,他通过一次又一次地将自己置于枪林弹雨之中做到了这一点。

他从未受伤。他写信给他的母亲:“上帝没有制造像我这样的力量来挡子弹。”

然后,在那列装甲列车之后,他只是一名记者。布尔人停下了火车,最终杀死了15人,我想。他们被抓住了。他们是从上面的岩石地面上用小武器和火炮射击的。他们被困在那列火车上。他哪里也去不了。丘吉尔是那个下车并想办法把它弄松的人,然后他带着子弹在周围走了大约一个小时。帮助他的人有好几个人被杀了。他把火车弄松了,他们大部分人都逃脱了。他被俘了。他对哈尔丹说,哈尔丹请他来的,他非常钦佩丘吉尔,尽管他后来因为海伦家族的故事而生气,因为他没能逃脱。

丘吉尔走到他面前说:“谢谢你让我这样做。”他说:“整个达尔维希轻步兵都看到了,现在我将被选入议会。”

所以那是他的动机,对吧?所以他写《河战》是关于一场受欢迎的战争,而且他并不站在英国一边,你看。而且批评了基奇纳,这对丘吉尔后来的职业生涯很重要。

因为基奇纳允许亵渎马赫迪的陵墓,所以丘吉尔了解战争的代价。

他知道。

在这种背景下,他想要。

而且,你知道,这使得事情更加戏剧化,因为确实,在1940年5月28日,温斯顿·丘吉尔发表了一篇精彩的演讲,你可以在加里·奥德曼主演的非常好的电影《至暗时刻》中看到它的改编。他发表了一个鼓舞人心的演讲,他们决定不接受墨索里尼主持的和平会议,而是继续战斗。

这是哈利法克斯试图通过墨索里尼间接与希特勒开启和平谈判。

没错。

与希特勒。丘吉尔相信,而且请记住,我们谈到了实践智慧,如果你对这些事情感兴趣,就像学生会感兴趣一样,首先,这意味着什么?把自己放在那个位置,你会知道什么?在这一天,你会如何选择?这个选择当然是极其重要的。所以,丘吉尔对后来发生的任何代价都应受到责备,但我们也无法知道,如果他们没有这样做,会发生什么。

你看。

所以,在我看来,这是不慷慨的。这是不公正的学术研究,将猜测与一个动机崇高的人所做的事情进行对比,而这个人一生都被证明非常不愿意做这类事情。

丘吉尔在第一次世界大战中发明了坦克是为了挽救生命。整个迪埃普的行动是为了摆脱那些战壕,在那里有90万英国年轻人丧生,我的妻子的祖父的生活也因此被毁,尽管他幸存了下来。再也不是同一个人了。对。丘吉尔知道代价,他之所以这样做,是因为你知道,丘吉尔后来在六月份起草了一篇演讲,这件事发生在1940年5月28日,我们没有那篇演讲,但他说是他起草了一篇题为“德国入侵时,你可以带走一个”的演讲。你看,所以在那件事上,在他一生中的任何其他时候,他都准备好全力以赴。

现在你可以说,有些人也这么说。

是的。但那是因为他现在掌权了,一切都是为了他的荣耀。但我认为,如果你研究他的生活,你会看到他多次冒着自己和他的事业的风险来避免屠杀。所以,你知道,所以,如果你从今天写历史的人的角度来看,把这些事情搞得如此错误,是多么错误。

你知道,而且显然没有读过。

因为如果你读了,你知道,你可以看到。

顺便说一句,这也是为什么大学的目的是什么。我们需要成长,如果我们能在道德和智力美德上成长,我们将能够如实地看待事物。亚里士多德说,一个完全运作的灵魂,拥有道德的勇气和智力美德,可以不受阻碍地看待世界。这就是失败所在。

最终的克服是学习。

好吧,拉里,在这场谈话中你帮了我。我相信我们的观众和听众能更清晰地思考世界,更清晰地看待世界。我们谈到了苦难,在希尔斯代尔的苦难的教学方法。我们谈到了文化战争、文化退化、修正主义、实际战争、机械化屠杀。我们喜欢在阳光明媚的乐观和希望的基调中结束这些讨论。播客名为“第一缕阳光”。所以,最后一个问题,最近有什么让你心潮澎湃的吗?无论是在希尔斯代尔还是更广泛的范围?是什么让你对未来感到希望和兴奋?别管那些阴郁和修正主义,以及个人的和职业的斗争。就个人而言,我非常感激我的家人。我有很棒的孩子。我有孙子孙女。他们是优秀的人。我的妻子是最好的,尽管你妻子绝对是竞争对手。所以我被爱包围着。在职业上,我生活在一个世界里,就像你两次在牛津和剑桥欢迎我进入的世界一样。可爱的年轻人,聪明,志向高远,渴望学习和成长。如果你看到这一点,并且看到越来越多的人这样做,我们在希尔斯代尔就有。这里正在发生,我认为这与你有关,这意味着我看到了文明的力量在增长,而你就是其中之一。

拉里,感谢你参加《第一缕阳光》。

谢谢。很荣幸。