Transcription
Meet Mike Rouse, the first foreign Hong Kong government official to become a citizen of China.
And there's only one way a non-Chinese can get a Hong Kong passport.
Born into a low-class family in England, he left home at 23 and traveled around Asia by boat until in 1972 he came to Hong Kong to start a new life. "I arrived with nothing. I slept on a couch of a friend of my stepfather."
Since then, he went from journalism to fighting corruption at the government level and later even helped bring to Hong Kong the first Disneyland in Asia. "We worked 7 days a week, 12, 14, 16 hours a day until we nailed it."
Mike shared the truth behind the success of China, Hong Kong, and Singapore that has long stayed behind closed doors. "We are the best. We want the best. What western media can't get right about China and Hong Kong is totally unrelated to facts at all and whether Hong Kong is heading towards a bright future or a sharp fall."
"The other danger is an internal one in Hong Kong that I promise this story will blow your mind. I'm Max Chernov your insider to expert life."
"More than 20 years ago you became Chinese national. That's right. Why did you decide to do it and what was your emotions when when you was doing it?"
"I decided to do it as a funny story. I'd been toying with the idea for quite a long time. My first trip to the mainland was in 1986. I went to see as part of a delegation of expatriate civil servants. We went to see the central government just as all the local staff associations had done."
"We were the last. We didn't go. They all had a paid for trip. We decided as a matter of principle, we would pay our own fair airfare and our own hotel. And we wouldn't take an interpreter. We wanted the Chinese side to be 100% in charge of everything."
"And we arrived there and just told them, 'Do you want us to stay in Hong Kong after 1997 or not?'"
"Mhm."
"We are not troublemakers. We understand history. We are civil servants. If you want all the British to go, we will all go. Some of us will go immediately. Some of us will go in the years leading up to 1997. Some of us will go at the last minute on the last day. And we got to meet Lu Ping, the head of deputy head I think at the time of the Hong Kong and Macau affairs office. They treated us really well. They gave us in Chinese terms huge face and we were four nondescript civil servants. Okay."
"Plain Joe's. And Liu Ping could not have been clearer. We want you all to stay. Go back. Speak to your expatriate colleagues in the judiciary, in the police force, in the department of justice, in the universities, in the schools, in the engineering departments, in the architectural service. We want all of you to stay. So I actually said, I don't think the British are playing to that model, and therefore Hong Kong isn't. Hong Kong's thinking is we got to get everybody out in an orderly way."
"And I said, 'You need to send the message to them.'"
"'I believe you, but you need to send the message to them.'"
"And Luping said, 'Leave this to me.' The next day we were in the great hall of the people in the Jiang Su room with the state councelor Ji Pangfay and we sat in the big chairs just as if we were it was President Bush or President Trump you know meeting. We were the four of us nobodyies there with the state counselor and the head of the Hong Kong Macau's office and senior officials and it was filmed by CCTV and they couriered the film to Hong Kong the same day and gave the tape to all the TV stations here free of charge. Wow. You want to send a message? I was really impressed by this and it goes without saying."
"I bowled over. They grasped the problem. They had a solution. They implemented it within 24 hours. And when I came back, I I discussed with cuz I was the only admin officer, the only political officer among the four of us."
"So I did discuss it with other colleagues in the government and uh they got the message and I got the message. I actually bought my first property in Hong Kong in 1986."
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"When you start like having this idea of like maybe I should become like I I'm felt comfortable here. I'm never going to live anywhere else. It wasn't a requirement of my job. But when I became I set up a government department, new government department, my last posting was setting up Invest Hong Kong, the government's investment promotion agency."
"And I was going around the world saying people Hong Kong is the best place in the world for business. And I just thought to myself, you know, how much more compelling would the argument be if I showed people that I bought the product myself?"
"Yes. If I was selling Ford motor cars and you looked in my driveway and you saw a Honda, would you believe me that Ford motor cars were the best?"
"No, you wouldn't. You'd have questions, wouldn't you?"
"So, I was going around saying, 'Hong's the great place in the world for business.' And by the way, I'm traveling on a British passport. It doesn't add up. No, I'm going to have a Hong Kong passport. And there's only one way a non-Chinese can get a Hong Kong passport."
"Uh if you're not born Chinese, you have to naturalize."
"Mhm."
"So, funnily enough, when I got back in 1986, I had been sent a copy of China's nationality law in English by a senior civil servant in Hong Kong who just happened to have one in his filing cabinet. He sent me a copy of it. I read it and I realized how extraordinarily liberal it is. China's nationality law is amazingly liberal. And when you use the word liberal in connection with the Chinese law, people think you've gone gaga. You know, they think, 'Oh, you'll be in the asylum very soon.' It's incredibly liberal. There are only three ways to become Chinese. Number one, close relative of a Chinese national. close relatives not defined or long-term resident of China. Long-term not defined. China not defined. But Hong Kong has been part of China since historic times. It says so in the introduction to the joint declaration signed by Britain and China. So it must be true. or in case you thought the first two were too difficult, other relevant circumstances, not defined."
"Now, actually, I qualified under all three."
"Yeah."
"I I could if I couldn't get it, no one could get it. Um, but anyway, I thought back in '86, one day I'm going to I'm going to look at this and with this new department, I set up in July 2000. And funnily enough, I was thinking about it then. Now's the time. And then we got a report that Le Shan Long, the prime minister of Singapore, had complained to an American businessman that Hong Kong had hired a British mercenary to go around the world bad mouthing Singapore. And that wasn't true. Actually."
"That wasn't true."
"No, because I found out it doesn't work. The best tactic when promoting Hong Kong is to praise Singapore and then explain why Hong Kong is better."
"That's much more effective with audiences in Europe and North America and Australasia because they know Singapore better."
"They know Singapore very well. They know Singapore is good."
"Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Explain. Go for that. Singapore is good. And I would tell people when you're an international company, you're looking at Hong Kong and Singapore. The first 10 things you look at are virtually the same. Worldass airport, check. Worldass container port, check. Worldclass telecommunications, check. Worldass banking system, check. Convertible currency, check. Sound banking system, check. Boom. Down the list. The first 10 things are the same. It's only you get two really big differences at that time. things change over time."
"Yeah."
"One is cost. In those days, Hong Kong was more expensive than Singapore. I'm not sure whether that's still true or not. I don't keep up."
"Similar, right? Pretty much."
"But Hong Kong was was more expensive then. And I would concede that up front."
"And the other was location. I said nothing wrong with Singapore. I said Hong Kong, if you're dealing with East Asia and mainland China, Hong Kong has the best location. I have worked in Hong Kong. I have flown to Beijing in the morning. Had a meeting. Flown to Shanghai in the afternoon. Had a meeting. Flown back to Hong Kong. I'm in my bed before midnight in my own bed in Hong Kong. You're in Singapore. It takes you all day to fly to Beijing. You fly one day, you work one day, you fly back one day. There's three days. It's just not as efficient. If your main focus is South India, go to Singapore. I can't compete. They make all our flights. We got a terrible deal from the Indian government in those days. All our flights take off at 4:00 in the morning. Nobody's interested."
"Singapore, they paid."
"Yeah."
"They got good slots in Mumbai. Right. Well, cafe wouldn't pay. We haven't got good slots."
"Um and Southeast Asia, I mean Indonesia if or Malaysia."
"India, but historically those places with a significant Chinese minority."
"Mhm."
"Anyway, they've tended to put their wealth in Hong Kong to keep it away from their own government and they didn't want it in Singapore because the Singapore government is a member of AAN. Maybe those other governments will put pressure on the Singapore government. Nobody puts pressure on the Hong Kong government."
"So, we had an in with those places. So, yeah, praise Singapore. Anyway, funnily enough, I met Lean."
"Oh, yeah."
"Later. in of all places, Davos."
"Uhhuh."
"It was purely by chance. I mean, I only ever went one to Davos and it was a complete waste of time. I'll never go again."
"It's just a talking shop. It's silly."
"I was there and there was a speaker blah blah and we all had to sit down. It was free seating at lunch."
"Yeah."
"And I sat down at a table and it just happened that Lean Long and his wife were both on the same table with me."
"Okay. So I went round later giving out my name card to everyone and when he saw it he recognized the name."
"You remember your name?"
"Yeah."
"It was but good. I mean also."
"But then what what happened? Did you converse like."
"No. No. I mean I don't want to say I'm not a British mercenary anymore. I'm now a try you a patriotic Chinese national. I didn't have to say that. You see?"
"Yeah. it the actions spoke for themselves and it was such a help in making speeches around the world always in my introduction or the introduction by the host."
"Yes."
"it'll be Mr. blah blah blah came to Hong Kong 1972 live there and in 2001 he became the first expatriate civil servant in Hong Kong's history to become a Chinese national. So you know North Texas Chamber of Commerce there I am just been introduced by a 7 foot Texan. So, the first thing I have to do is lower the microphone, you know, a foot and a half. And I make a joke of it. Excuse me. Why I lower the microphone to a more appropriate height for us Chinese people? Laughter, right? Um, think I'm the new face of the yellow peril. More laughter. Um, my first uh Hong Kong uh I get the Shanghai question. And I would say my first wife was from Shanghai and my second wife is from the Pearl River Delta because I've made my own evaluation of China's economic future, you know, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And then you get to the serious part of the answer and the people are on your side already and this is a guy because I sell Ford motorcars and I bought a Ford motor car."
"Yeah."
"It's in my driveway. I'm selling Hong Kong to you and I bought it."
"How's the process work? So you have to you apply for a passport then you have to give up your."
"British."
"This is an interesting part because Chinese the reason more people don't do it is Chinese law does not allow your nationality. So if you're born Chinese in Hong Kong you get your Hong Kong SL passport. If you get a Australian passport or a Canadian passport or British who cares nobody cares. But if you're not born Chinese and you want to get a Hong Kong South passport, you have to apply and they write you a letter. It's first of all, it's dealt with in Hong Kong under delegated authority from Beijing. Uh it doesn't go up to Beijing. It's dealt with here under delegated authority just as Hong Kong used to deal with British nationality under delegated authority from London. Okay. But obviously they've agreed the criteria and what they look for common things. How long's he been here? Has he got any close relatives? Has he made an effort to learn the language? Has he paid taxes in Hong Kong for 10 years, 15 years, whatever, whatever, whatever, and so on."
"Mhm."
"So, you look at about 20 different points. And as I said, in my case, I can't be stopped. Then they write you a letter saying your application will be approved. Note the wording. Will be approved, but you must now prove to us that you have given up your existing nationality. So, I went to the British consulate. It's a very British procedure. You fill in a form in duplicate and the consulate send it to flea's diplomatic bag to the foreign office. Foreign office send it to the home office. Home office send it to the police force and the inland revenue."
"Mhm."
"If there's no warrants for your arrest and you've paid all your taxes at the end back, it comes up the same chain back here."
"So it goes to England and then back."
"And then um you get the second copy, the duplicate copy back."
"Mhm."
"Confirming that you've Yeah. you've given it up."
"Was it emotional for you?"
"Not really. Not by then. I think it's a a bridge that you cross. It's a process. It actually takes several years. In the 1970s when I went to England, I was going home and I would play Tom Jones on the on the radio. I'm coming home to your loving arms or the green green grass of home, whatever, whatever, whatever, starting from about 1979 1980 going to England was visiting getting to Heathro airport CX251 Hong Kong home I'm going home this happens inside your head and it happens over a period of time before the passport before the passport and then the passport just became the logical conclusion of that process and now I'm very happy I travel around the world and I'm a Chinese and You better get used to it."
"People are surprised and freaking surprised."
"When I go to the mainland, I'm not visiting a foreign country. I'm returning home to my motherland. So I have a home return permit issued by the Chinese authorities."
"And sometimes they people who are security guard will see me in the queue for Chinese nationals and try and steer me towards the foreigners queue and I just show them my home return and invariably I get a huge smile a really huge smile I used it the first time I used it foreign was actually in Singapore I arrived in Singapore and I'd filled in the form honestly you know nationality Chinese. And the lady looked at the passport and said, 'Wow, I didn't didn't know you guys could get one of these.' I said, 'Well, yeah.'"
"'We can.'"
"But you came to Hong Kong in 1972."
"I left the UK in the summer of 71."
"Yeah."
"And I was going to travel around the world. Uh see the world. France, Italy, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Turkey, uh a ship through the Black Sea, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Nepal, back to India. The hippie trail basically the standard hippie trail. India, you either stop in India or you fly onto Bangkok, which is what I did."
"Uh I spent a few months in Bangkok, then down through Malaysia to Singapore."
"Do you remember Singapore back then? You spent like a couple of days there."
"It was about a week."
"Yeah. Yep. I remember Singapore vividly because my hair was long and in order to get in, I had to get fitted with a short hair wig."
"I remember that time. Yeah."
"I got in Qualum, I got a lady's hairdresser to comb my hair all up and put fit a short hair wig on it. We got back in the taxi and we drove into Singapore. Got through immigration. Soon as we got down the road, I pulled the short hair wig off. The the driver went nuts. couldn't believe his couldn't believe his eyes. Yeah."
"So for for some time Yeah. Lick when you I think Lick when you did it. So you're not allowed if you're a man, you're not allowed to wear the."
"That's right. your long hair."
"I was asked by customs too on the way in if I wanted to buy any drugs."
"And I said, 'No, I already got plenty.' And you know, you got to you got to keep pulling the legs of these guys."
"Yeah. Yeah. It was not expensive back then, I guess, like compared to the rest of Southeast Asia."
"Yeah. It wasn't too bad. I mean like we we had enough money to eat every day before the ship sailed."
"Yeah."
"We had student tickets, third class student tickets on the boat."
"Yeah."
"And it was one of those deals. If the boat was full, you didn't get on and you lost the ticket. But if it was if there was room, you got on board. And uh there was room. We got on board and we we it was only after we got on board the ship we found out the food was included."
"Whatever you'd spend for on the ticket."
"Yeah. It included the food."
"So the first meal we stayed in in the canteen for the first sitting and the second sitting and people came and went and we just stayed there. We eating."
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"What was the most vivid like most memorable memories from that trip in Southeast Asia?"
"Going through the Kyber Pass because of the history uh of the Kaiba Pass between Pakistan and Afghanistan."
"Yeah."
"And also seeing the Taj Mahal at dawn, which I did. I'd heard about the Taj Mahal. I and there I was early dawn and there was right in front of me. So beautiful."
"Yeah."
"I guess Bangkok I liked. The girls were so funny, really free and easy. It was a really Especially for hippies. It was a great place for hippies in those days."
"I probably still is, but I'm a little older now."
"Yeah. So, I had a lot of fun there. I learned a lesson in Darwin. There was a government office there which gave out jobs, casual jobs on a daily basis. And of course we all called it the slave market."
"But we'd queue up every day and get a a new job and we go and do it. And if you did a good job for that employer, he might offer you another job either the next day or the next week or the next month."
"Yeah."
"So I ended up with a sort of stable of jobs. Every Saturday morning I had a job unloading the cold fruit lorry from came up from the south. You had to get the fruit and the vegetable off the lorry into the freezer very quickly. So I did that every Saturday. And then there was an oil supply ship that came in. You had to turn it around in within a few hours, take off everything, all the damaged cables they uh and so on and then put new food and new cables on board and turn the ship around so it could get out to the drilling platforms offshore. So you work hard. Okay, we've got another ship coming in in 10 days time. So gradually you build up a stable of casual employment and then in the odd day when you haven't got something you go back to the slave market and and get another one."
"Um and one of the things I learned there was a lot to do with working was a mindset issue cuz I bumped into a couple of people I'd worked with before and they said oh they said there's no work. I was thinking of taking on an assistant. I I had so many jobs lined up."
"I was double booked, you know, and I which was crazy. And I'm thinking, hang on, they can't find work and I'm double booked. What what's going on? And I think it you learn something in about life. It's mindset in part at least."
"Do you think it's a was a mindset or was maybe more your communication skills or."
"I you know just determination. I had nothing. I had no fall back. I had to work. I had to eat and they were a bit too cozy."
"The other thing I think I was impressed in Hong Kong a lot. I arrived with nothing. I slept on a couch of a friend of my stepfather for a couple of weeks and I looked in the South China Morning Post and there was an advertisement uh for a job teaching English tutor. So I phoned up, went there, got the job straight away. I was earning five Hong Kong dollars an hour. if there were two students, husband and wife, $6 an hour. I did that for a few weeks. And I always wanted a job in a newspaper. I'd had no qualifications, no experience. I'd never worked for a newspaper before. So I walked around to the office of a tabloid newspaper. The star was called tabloid with page three girl in a swimsuit. That kind of thing."
"Still exist or not?"
"No. and it did very well, but it eventually crumbled."
"But um I walked in and asked to see the editor and the girl on reception just called him and he came out and that was the thing to me in Hong Kong was a big feature. People were free and easy. They did come and talk to you."
"Yeah."
"So this guy came out. He was a very tall Australian and he looked down at me and he said, 'What do you want?' And I looked up at him and said, 'A job.' And he said, 'What can you do?' And I said, 'Write English.' You know, I didn't lie about my CV or anything. And he said, 'Start tomorrow.' That was the entire job interview."
"Why Hong Kong can Why not stay in Bangkok?"
"I was going to go around the world. Um, and I figured Hong Kong would be a good staging point to get some money and enough to go on to the next leg, Japan or North America or wherever."
"Yeah. Um, and that was two wives and four children ago and I'm still here. People say, 'Why do you stay in Hong Kong?' Very funny. Well, first of all, it's so beautiful."
"It is."
"It's just a beautiful city. It is at night when everything's lit up, it's like a huge jewelry box."
"Yeah."
"And the daytime with the country parks and the hills, the sea, you got everything. Um, but recently I woke up in the middle of the night, 2:00 a.m. Shivering violently, turned off the air con. It was in summer. Turned off the air con, wrapped myself in a blanket, couldn't stop, went to the bathroom. My left leg was in out of pain. I canceled my appointments for the rest of the day. Uh, when I woke, you know, when I got up normally, made an appointment, an urgent appointment to see my GP. Went to see my GP. He diagnosed. He said, 'I'm it might be deep vein thrombosis. It might be DVT. You must go immediately to hospital and get them to check it out.' I went directly to a public hospital in Hong Kong. I had a referral note from the GP saying DVT at the top of the page. The triage nurse did not hesitate. Woof. I was straight in with the doctor. I was straight in with a couple of scans, an ECG and so on. I was admitted to the hospital. The doctor came, the doctors, a team of doctors came around at 6:00 that evening at 6:30. Looked at the leg. It's not DVT. It's an infection. It's a very bad infection. It might be the flesheating one, necroizing fasciitis or something. I have a team of doctors standing by to operate at midnight, but meantime, we're going to check. I'm going to take some samples from your leg. He took four chunks of flesh flesh out of my leg."
"Came back about 9 or 10 p.m. and said, 'It's okay. It's not that one. We don't have to operate at midnight. We got to put you on intravenous antibiotics and then we'll discharge you with some oral antibiotics.' Yeah."
"I had 48 hours of intravenous antibiotics discharged with oral antibiotics. I got a bill from the hospital for 136 Hong Kong dollars. This is 136. I had a team of doctors. They did immediate surgery. I had my fist in my mouth while they cut bits of flesh out of me. You know, they said they gave me a No."
"They said they gave me an anesthetic. I didn't feel it, but you got the result and worldass service and $136 Hong Kong dollars, which is what about £14?"
"That's nothing."
"Yeah. Yeah. Yeah."
"Free. Basically."
"Basically free. And it wasn't a privileged price. It was something that any member of the public would have in the same situation."
"Immediate service, immediate examination by highly qualified people. and treatment."
"You like fell in love with the place or gradually you started liking it?"
"I it was the opportunity. I couldn't believe the opportunity."
"I I wanted a job teaching English. I had to do something quickly. Got a job. I always wanted to be a reporter, walk in, ask for a job, get a job with no qualifications and no experience. They gave me a chance and I learned again something on the newspaper, a lesson that stuck with me. My boss was a Chinese guy. He was the news editor who was one year younger than me and much better than me. And he was working in his second language. Obviously, it was a it was a bilingual newspaper. It had an English edition and a Chinese edition."
"But he was for the English edition. He was working in his second language and he was better than me. And I could get stories. It turned out I could get stories. I got stories. They seemed I seem to pick them up like a vacuum cleaner. I would walk around the streets. I'd go into a bar. I go into restaurant. I could get stories that wasn't a problem."
"I could I could write them, but I couldn't write the first sentence of the story."
"In a tabloid newspaper with an Australian editor, the answer was very clear. The first sentence must tell the whole story in 20 words or less. If you got 21, 22, no, he'd give you the story back. Didn't matter how good the story was, the first sentence had to be 20 words or less."
"Mhm. And so I could write the story, but I couldn't get the first sentence in 20 words or less. And my immediate supervisor, the Chinese guy, stayed behind in his own time after work to teach me how to write the first sentence. And I thought, you know, I don't know this guy. He's just met me and yet he's willing to help someone, a stranger, and help him. And I thought this is the kind of place I could get to like and I found myself specializing in stories about police corruption. And the following year in 1974, uh, the Hong Kong government created the Independent Commission against corruption. And I thought, well, I love this city. Corruption is a scourge. It's rampant here at that time."
"Was it like huge back then?"
"Oh, huge. And syndicated. I mean, all of the uh illegal drugs, all of the brothel, all the gambling, everything was licensed by the police. You paid it. And uh it got so bad that even very serious crimes could be hushed up with money."
"And I think that's why the British decided uh to and Melhose, the new governor who'd been set to sort out Hong Kong, announced the creation of an independent commission against corruption. And I thought, well, you know, I'm writing stories about it, which is contributing to improvement, but I I ought to show I'm willing to stand up for it. So, I applied and much to everyone's surprise, I was hired."
"Yeah."
"Now, it was an open advertisement, and again, so the the English tutor job, the newspaper job, the independent commission against corruption job, all in open competition, and I had a chance. And I got the job."
"Yeah. I I didn't know anyone on the inside and no no one was pulling strings on my behalf. So I got the job in the ICAC and I did three years in the operations department. I had a warrant card. I arrested people. I would take part in 5 a.m. raids. In group raids, we go and arrest a group of people. I was a member of the team."
"What was the craziest story you remember from that?"
"The craziest story was the Cowoon traffic case. There were 120 people in Koon traffic. uh police traffic and that was from the chief superintendent in charge down to the guy who literally made the tea and the file that went from the ICAC to the attorney general recommended the prosecution of 119 of them. The only guy not to be prosecuted was the guy who'd only just been transferred in and there was no evidence against him yet. But had there been a week later, there would have been a witness against him where because everyone was on the take. Yeah."
"Every vehicle in Koon paid money and you got a decal which you put in your windscreen to show that you'd paid that month."
"So every taxi, every mini bus official."
"Yes. It you bought it from the from the police representative."
"Yeah."
"You put it in the green screen and you were immune from prosecution after that."
"Yeah."
"Um so that was syndicated corruption. And the attorney general gets this file. He said, 'Well, when earth do you expect me to hold the trial? There's no courtroom big enough for 119 defendants. I mean, we have to use a stadium. So, he said, 'No, he sent it the far back.' He said, 'Choose the 10 most senior uh it must be a minimum of two witnesses.'"
"Mhm."
"The minimum of two witnesses and then you choose the 10 most senior police officers and I'll prosecute those. So, that's how the case started in court and it was hysterical. It really was because some of our own witnesses named serving ICAC officers who'd come from the police force as having been corrupt when they were in cowoon traffic before. So we had to suspend a couple of our own people during the trial."
"Okay."
"And then then one of the witnesses named the chief superintendent in charge of cowoon traffic and the judge said, 'Well, hang on. Why isn't this man in the dock with the others? It should be minimum of two witnesses and the 10 most senior, but there was only one witness who could name the chief superintendent. And the judge banged his gavvel and said, 'I don't I don't care about the attorney general's guideline. I'm adjourning the court now and when we reconvene after lunch, I expect to find this guy in the dock with the others.' So we had to go and arrest him at lunchtime and bring him and it just went on like that all the way through the trial and the evidence of the syndication was just a shock. It really was."
"I think it changed a lot of public attitudes. Uh there was no defense. What were you going to say? So corruption was everywhere. I mean I was a junior investigator. I wasn't was a star detect. I had no detective experience for heaven's sake on the interview."
"The only telling point I had was that I was honest. I was wasn't corrupt. That was the only point I could bring to the table. It was enough."
"So after six years in the ICAC, three years in operations and three years in corruption prevention, by then I was married with two small children. And corruption is a very narrow field. Becomes to be honest becomes boring after a while. because it's it's always the same, you know, very minor variations in the story. So, I thought, well, I want to do something else. And my wife said, well, try and stay in the public sector cuz we're very comfortable. We have a an apartment provided by the government to live in, reasonable rent. Try and stay in the public sector. So, I looked I asked my colleagues, 'What's the best job in the government?' And they said, 'Oh, administrative officer,' which is the old British colonial officer thing where you're a jack of all trades, master of none, and you can be in an immigration department this week, and next week you're making land policy and the following week you're doing social welfare and this kind of thing. So, you get moved around a lot. And it sounded great. So, I thought, 'Ah, okay, I'll throw my cap in the ring for this.' And again, open competition."
"Um, I was up I think there were 3,000 people took the written exams uh that year. I took the written exams. 300 of us passed and got a preliminary interview. And out of the prelim 300 got the preliminary interview, 60 got the final interview. And out of the 60, half got the job. And I was one of the half. So."
"Like 1%."
"30 people out of 3,000. Yeah."
"And again, it was open competition."
"So, you think it's a mindset like why why do you think you you won that one as well?"
"I think because I had although I was older than many of the applicants, they were many of them were fresh graduates, but I had experience of the world. I'd had experience of life."
"The hitchhiking from the UK to Thailand and Australia to navigate the sticky situations turned out turned out to be a plus. you you're a man of the world and uh the having been a journalist you knew about the city and having been in ICA you were familiar with the government and uh you had a record."
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"So after the ICSC."
"Yes."
"You."
"That's the most amazing job. It really was and I guess it suited me. It suited my personality because of this jack of all trades thing. So literally one or two years I my first job was in the district office and the outlying islands dealing with unlawful hillside burial or getting street lighting for villages or water supply for villages and things like this dealing with all these practical issues. And we we had uh an in day because of district office we sat all the staff had to sit in the office and any villager could come in and tell us his problems and we'd have to fix them."
"That was uh so we had our home day for that and I was looking after the outlying islands Lantau Chongcha Pangchow Llama all of these interesting problems from rural areas. did that for a couple of years. Then suddenly a completely change of job. I was working directly for the financial secretary. The next thing he gave me was the the responsibility for the negotiating systems with the Walt Disney Company which led to Hong Kong Disneyland. I'd never done anything like this before. He gave me the assignment on the 3rd of February."
"What year?"
"1999. I remember it because for two reasons. M my daughter was born the same month on the 27th of February and all the way through the negotiations when we hit a hard point and we had a lot of naughty issues. I console myself with a thought you're going to fix this because you're going to take your daughter to Hong Kong Disneyland."
"Not to Disneyland. There's loads of Disneylands already in the world. California, Florida, Tokyo, Paris. I'm not going to take my daughter to Disneyland. I am but I'm going to take my daughter to Hong Kong Disneyland."
"So that was a February 99 and the first meeting was."
"Who's whose idea was to to come to to open Disneyland."
"Oh that's a very good question. I think Disney had been looking at various locations and I think at very senior level Eisner had approached CH Tong, the then chief executive of Hong Kong and a very small team had been established to look at whether it whether there was a site where it could work cuz Disney wanted to address the China market but they needed a convertible currency. They needed protection of intellectual property. They needed a big throughput of international visitors and so on and so on and so forth and get the climate right. And eventually of course they also went into Shanghai. But their first obvious place if to address the Chinese market the first place was Hong Kong and it was the right choice for them. They looked at Singapore. Uh they looked at Shanghai. Lie Kuwanu in Singapore. He had the whole Disney board staying at his official residence in Singapore and he went twice to California to the head office to beseech them to do it in Singapore. And Zu Rang Ji had visited Disney in California years before and he was the mayor, now the prime minister by then, but he was the when he was the mayor of he was so excited by Disney, he'd gone back and got a map of Puong and put a big circle on it saying this is going to be the site for Shanghai Disneyland. So, we had tough competition and whenever Disney reached a a tough point in the Disney negotiation, they were saying, 'Well, you know, let's just see if there's any flights available to, you know, Shanghai this afternoon.'"
"But I I had met the guy from Universal Studios, a guy called Frank Stanic, and I I and they would say this about Shanghai, and I said, 'Do you know, I must give Frank a call. It's been ages since we had coffee. So we would just play with each other like this.'"
"But Universal Students eventually went to Singapore but later I think."
"And they also did a a thing in in Beijing."
"Beijing as well."
"Yeah. But they wanted you know everyone I'd talked to Frank and Frank said look he said if if you talk with Disney he said if you get Disney that's great for you. We'll go somewhere else."
"He said because in California they're number one. We're number two. In Florida they're number one. We're number two. They went to Tokyo. We went to Osaka. In Osaka, we're number one. He said, 'So, China's going to be the same.' Yes. You if you get them, that's great. And we'll go somewhere else."
"Um, so."
"And then you like what what what was your goal in this negotiations?"
"Like you you want them to agree to build it in Hong Kong, but what else? What what other goals did you have?"
"They had my my instruction from the financial secretary was very clear. I want their signature on a piece of paper before budget day to say they're going to enter into serious negotiations with us. And I want their signature on a piece of paper by the end of the year to say they're definitely coming. And the constraint if you like on both sides for them it was it must be commercially viable. For us it must be politically defensible. I was going to have to take the terms and conditions to the executive council which does consider things in confidence but all the material terms would be public knowledge because it would have to go to the legislative council and it would be in the media and Disney accepted that there were some things they couldn't get simply because I couldn't sell them. I'll come to that again in a minute and I had to accept that there were certain things that they had to have. So for example before they could accept the land it's a joint venture company in the end it was a joint venture company the government put in cash Disney put in cash um the government gave a loan to the joint venture company the banks gave a loan to the joint venture company I think Disney gave some loan to the joint venture company as well so there was equity there was debt combination of things but the sort of most of the issues and this is something I learned in the process Yeah, most of the issues they had a common objective. I give you example the ferry pier. Now there was a core team on the Hong Kong side. There was me and a girl basically colleague Winnie Winnie Ho Paul Winnie and they had a guy lead negotiator and we would bring in experts when it was a particular subject. They would bring in experts on one day they said tomorrow we want to discuss the ferry pier."
"Mhm."
"So we brought in a couple of port works engineers from the government department. They brought in their engineers. Their engineers began by saying we want to design and build the ferry pier, the public pier at Disneyland. And the port works engineers from the company were very offended. They said, 'Well, wait a minute. We're the professionals here. We build all the public peers in Hong Kong. Our peers are very safe. They can withstand typhoons.' When the ferry captain has had a couple of beers and the ferry hits the pier, they bounce off. The pier is not incapacitated and so we build robust public peers."
"And Disney said, 'Yes.' They said, 'We understand your peers are very safe, but they're not beautiful.'"
"And the government engineers looked at each other, 'Beautiful.' And they, 'What's he talking about? Beautiful? Peers don't have to be beautiful.'"
"And Disney said, 'Yes, you see, if there's a ferry service, we will put a Disney character on the pier to meet every fairy. It might be Snow White, uh, might be Cinderella. The pier has got to be beautiful.' So, in the end, we found a compromise. They engineers designed a ferry pier. The government engineers checked the design for safety. They then built the ferry pier."
"Yeah."
"To their own design and the government engineers checked the finished product for safety and soundness. We calculated a sum of money equivalent to the cost of designing and building a public pier to normal government standards and gave that sum of money to the joint venture company. And any extra cost had to be borne by the joint venture company I by Disney."
"Mhm. And then when they finished, they gave us the ferry."
pier back to the government because it's a public pier.
Mhm.
And then we licensed the joint venture company to operate the pier for the lifetime of the park.
So, everyone got what they wanted. Uh we got a safe public beer and they got a beautiful public beer. And we found it's possible to do this if you're really determined. If your objective is to get a solution in Paris, they got vas basically free land, basically cash grants and special tax concessions.
It's outside of Paris, right?
Yeah. Is it? Yeah.
The very first meeting with us, that's what they asked for from me.
The very first meeting, by the way, was on the 5th of February.
I was given the assignment on the 3rd. The first meeting was on the 5th and Tiffany was born on the 27th. Remember, these dates never going to go from my head, right? And uh I said, "Well, we're not we don't give land free. We we won't give you any cash grants and we don't do special tax concessions, but apart from that, let's talk."
You know, these are the things they've got in Paris. And that's how we went from there. We solved the problems of the cash grants by moving the public facilities outside the park. They then become public facilities. We built them. We paid for them. They're not part of Disney. We dealt with a special tax concession when they realized our tax regime when they looked into it. They realized they didn't need special tax arrangements. There wasn't any tax on what they were doing.
Okay, that one just went away compared to France.
So the one that was um left was paying for the land and in the end everyone who put in cash equity got a shares. What I said for the land was for the value of the land I will take B shares. I can't give you the land for free.
Yeah.
I'll have to have something to put on the table B shares. But I'll freeze your business model for the first 20 years. And every dollar that's better than what you're saying is mine and turns my B shares into A shares. And that was how we finessed the land value issue in the negotiations.
The one on which they gave in was exclusivity. They said, "Uh, we'll do this deal, but you mustn't have any other internationally branded theme parks in Hong Kong ever." And I said, "Well, we could never agree to that. Hong Kong is the is the world's freest economy. We're number one.
We're the competitor. We're the place where you come to compete."
Yeah.
Yeah. We don't we don't do exclusivity. And he said, "Well, we must have exclusivity." And in the end I said look I don't think I can deliver this. I won't get the executive council to agree it. Even if the executive council agreed to it I don't think it would survive in the legislative council with all these elected members. I think it's a dead I could only conceive of trying to do it on one basis and they said what's that? I said 100% reciprocity. They said what does that mean? I said, "No more Disneylands in Asia."
Mhm.
And the the the chief negotiator pushed this up to the chairman of Walt Disney attractions.
Mhm.
Uh a guy called Judson Green. And Judson Green said, "Mike, we could never agree to this." And I said, "Judson, I'm the one who's telling you not to ask for this. You've asked for this. The only way I could possibly justify it is by saying it must be 100% reciprocal and you don't want it, I don't want it, but so stop asking for this one cuz I can't give you this one. And then the end they dropped it.
Yeah.
Um it was tough.
What are the biggest lessons that you learned after this like very tough negotiations?
We're back to mindset. I was determined to get a deal on fair terms. They were determined to get into the China market. And if you both sides are coming to something because originally when you think about negotiations, you think like Turkish wrestling where you're like this. That's what you think.
Yeah.
And occasionally it is a bit of that. And I mentioned the two issues where that arose. But for most of it, it's mindset. How can we do this?
Disney one day they said we want to discuss landscaping.
Yeah.
So we brought in a lady from the parks department on the government side. So Disney began at 9:00 in the morning. They said we want to bring in the leader of the tree team. We spent four hours discussing trees, species of tree, how high the trees were to grow, the canopy of the trees,
the root system of the trees, the composition of the soil in which the trees grow, how the trees were to be w watered,
if they blew down in a storm, how quickly they had to be replaced. And this was applying in the park around the park in the public areas and on the approach roads. We discussed trees for 4 hours and lunchtime the poor lady from the parks department was exhausted and we were all and they said that's lucky that's over. Oh no. They said this afternoon we want to discuss bushes and they had another team for that. A bush team. We want to bring in a leader of the bush team. And we had the same thing over again. Species of flowers and bushes, how they if they had to be dug up to put in an electric cable, how quickly they had to be replaced and said, everything has to say another four hours. And in the final contract, there are pages and pages on this stuff. But we both wanted to do we wanted Hong Kong Disneyland to be special. They wanted Hong Kong Disneyland to be up to their high standards and they are high standards and therefore we had to find a formula which did it for both of us.
Yeah.
And there are ways of doing that if you want it to do it. If you want to do it enough, how can we have it's like you must have redundancy in water supply. If you've only got one pipe, that's no good. What happens if the pipe bursts? You can't have people in a five-star hotel with no water for the shower. How do you have redundancy? You build it in. You agree it. We don't want our five-star hotel people coming out wearing a towel complaining that there's no water in the shower. We're pitching Hong Kong as a world city, Asia's world city. Uh it's got to be fivestar everywhere.
You need to be also detail oriented and you need to know your stuff. You need to be expert in your stuff. So you have to learn about the pipes and the bushes and all all of this.
Yes.
Yeah. And you need to translate this that that you know your knowledge to your counterpart, right?
Yep. And then you have to come up with a formula in a contract document. We had lawyers in Hong Kong. We had specialist lawyers we brought from outside the government, people with entertainment industry experience. They had their own legal department.
Yeah.
We both had lawyers on the east coast in the USA. So every night when we'd finished in Hong Kong drafting documents, we'd send the documents the drafts to the respective lawyers on the other side of the world. And the next morning when we came in, the reddrafts would have come back from the east coast and we'd start again.
So basically we worked 7 days a week, 12, 14, 16 hours a day.
Yeah.
Until we nailed it. And we nailed it. 9 months.
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What was the main driver for you? Hong Kong is a world-class city and we're going to have a world-class theme park. That's it.
Yeah,
we're a world-class city and we're going to have a world-class theme park. Ocean Park's very good, but we're going to have an internationally branded worldass theme park. The best in the world. At that time, I think we looked at the charts, the top 10 theme parks in the world, seven or eight of them were Disney, you know.
Yeah.
That's the one we want. We are the best. We want the best.
Was it like tough with your family, with your wife that you're always working like you or
you think? I mean, I think yes,
a little bit. A little bit. Yeah, it was um it was my second wife.
Yeah.
I think she was u more politically attuned than my first wife. So, she understood the compulsion. She understood the pressures. It wasn't just Disney. I I also did Asia World Expo. uh the conference and exhibition center at the airport. I was the first chairman of that.
Okay.
Also huge huge project.
Typ cast. You see
we haven't done this before. Where's Rouse? Here I am. And that's what made the job so great those 28 years. Absolutely special right the way through. And since retirement I always wanted a radio show. I have a radio show every week. I've always wanted a newspaper column. I now have a newspaper column every two weeks.
Yeah.
Um I enjoy lecturing at university. Every year a couple of times I get invited to lecture at university. What else do you want when you're in your retirement? I have a pension as well.
What's the secret like to be happy to love your job? Like what what's
laugh? I laugh a lot and sing. I sing in the shower. Tiffany sings in the shower too. I'm glad when she's home in Hong Kong, she sings in the shower. My son doesn't sing in the shower.
Yeah.
And nor my wife.
Sing in the sing as often as you can. Laugh as often as you can and be up for it. Be focused. Get it done.
What do you think the future of Hong Kong? Because you you've seen all the stages through this more than 50 years.
Like some people are kind of skeptical about the economy and stuff of Hong Kong. Like what what's your thoughts on the Hong Kong right now? I know some people want us to be a big technology hub and maybe we can be to a limited extent. Mostly it'll be Shenzhen. I think it'll be us in partnership with Shenzhen. Shenzhen's the natural place for this.
Yeah.
But what we do is we raise money. We're a financial center. We're the world's third most important financial center after New York and London. And we will overtake London. And one day we will overtake New York.
Yeah.
We will be the biggest financial center in the world. That's who we are. That's what we do. And my children and my grandchildren will see it.
What's the biggest challenges for Hong Kong right now?
I think several. One is Western politicians and media have an anti-China narrative which sometimes is totally unrelated to facts at all.
It's just
like like what
contrived. Well, what is the danger of to Europe from China? Are we going to invade China? Is the PLA Navy going to draw up at the aisle of white?
Yeah. I mean, if you China going to invade European Yeah.
Is Is that really Is that really realistic? Is that really a possibility? For 5,000 years, China's been concentrating on defense,
keeping what we've got. We have barbarians attack us from time to time. The Americans in Korea, the the Mongols from the north, whatever, whatever. We, you know, we're surrounded by people who from time to time we have a battle with. They haven't had a real war for 40 years. A little bit of a skirmish with the Indians in the Himalayas.
China's not a threat to Europe, security threat to Europe. It's not a security threat to North America. It's not a security threat to Africa. We're not a security threat to anyone at all outside Asia and arguably within Asia. We can we can sort it out ourselves. So I think the western narrative of politicians and media is hopeless and Hong Kong tends to suffer from that. And we now get um American politicians passing resolutions. They urged Trump to take up various cases with Zinping and so on. I think the other danger is an internal one in Hong Kong that some people are too anxious to earn favor from Beijing. So they tempted to go further than Beijing wants. We don't need to do that. And funny enough, the person who says we don't need to do that is Zinping. Zin Ping came here in uh 1st of July, the 25th anniversary. So that would have been 2022. and he made a speech and he said, "You Hong Kong, you have to maintain the common law legal system. It's different from our system."
Mhm.
But you, Hong Kong, you have to maintain the common law system because it important for China's future. Do this. And it's repeated again. If you read the I'm trying to read I've got still got it on my desk here. this latest 5-year plan in draft. Hong Kong has specific roles to play in China's economy and therefore the global economy. We know what they are. Stop giving bits of it away in a sense of apparently doing things to appease people who don't want to be appeased. They're the ones telling us to enjoy a high degree of autonomy because it suits the national interest. So, don't give it up. I would say those are the two big threats, Tom.
Yeah, you met like so many influential, incredible people like through your
Yeah.
Who was the most like maybe one or two the most fascinating person like that who you met?
I would think Donald Donald Jungy Khun. He was I dealt with him in several stages of my career and also right from the very beginning when I was applying to be an administrative officer by chance. He was the middle ranking official who looked after the ao grade and I had to agree terms with him from what my starting salary would be. We had to negotiate because I needed him. I couldn't take the minimum. I needed some recognition for my working experience that would push me up the scale to a higher salary and we agreed a pragmatic deal for that very easily. It's not a problem. Uh it's pragmatism.
It's very Hong Kong quality.
Is it?
Yes.
And it's like I told you when I registered my with the registration of person's office and
also another example of that was when I applied to be an AO and I had to do this medical form and I answered all the questions honored honestly you know have you ever had these diseases? Yeah. Uh that one twice you know. And the cler looks at it and he said but you're cured now right? I said, "Yeah, yeah." I said, "Let's just say you haven't got these."
So, it's like no, not that formal. No BS.
Pragmatic.
Pragmatic.
And Donald had vision.
Mhm.
In the run-up to 1997, I thought his position was in peril because on the he was kned by Charles on the 29th of June, 1997. He knelt down in front of the British monarch's representative and had the sword on both shoulders arise, Sir Donald. And I said to my wife in the run-up to 1997, he's the one senior official who might not make it, but if he does make it, I said he'll be chief executive one day. And sure enough,
after financial secretary, he became chief secretary and later chief executive
of Hong Kong. He had vision. That's what impressed me about him. He had vision. He would say to me, "Why have we got an agriculture department? We've got no agriculture. What do they do all day?" Now, he wasn't attacking someone else. That was one of his responsibilities. and he would challenge himself and set me to to kick down the walls and whatever.
Yeah.
And we have an agriculture department because we actually do have some agriculture and we have fisheries which is also important in some areas and conservation. So we have a department but it he raised the question.
It was the same with the industry department. Why have we got an industry department? We've got no industry. They've all gone to Guangdong province. Even our own people have gone to Guangdong province. the hell are we attracting foreigners to manufacture in Hong Kong? We can't even get our own people to manufacture. What what do they do all day? And again, it was an area of government for which he was responsible. He wanted it checked. He wanted to challenge himself. That's why actually things like the helping business program and the services promotion strategy group. These were other challenges of his own area. One of the things we did, one of the we tried to look at the industry department and there was a lot of bureaucratic obstruction to that. I know cuz I was obstructed. I kept trying to do it and I kept being obstructed. But eventually one of the members of the I think it was the services promotion strategy group said, "What does Hong Kong do for investment promotion?" He said, "Is that a job we should give to the trade development council?" Because some governments do trade and investment promotion together. It's a mistake by the way but some governments do the ones that keep it separate do best. Singapore keep it separate.
So the question we are we should the job of investment promotion be given to the TDC was actually taken care of by a small unit within the industry department and a consultant went away and looked at it and came back and had five conclusions and very damning conclusions about the way we did investment promotion. And that they said basically he said you what not only are aren't you productive you're mildly counterproductive which was devastating commentary on on government part of Donald's own empire. So the proposal was anything would be better than what you do now including doing nothing. Even better than that would be to give the job to the TDC but best of all would be to set up a new standalone government department. That's how invest Hong Kong came to be created and at that time I wasn't the designated leader of it that only came later but I had done the or paid for the study from my slush fund and Donald's prompting which looked at it which led to that conclusion and so he had vision he looked at things he was also the one I dealt with over the 1997 budget and other things we looked together when we were looking welcoming our Chinese future here and looking longterm, decades, generations even.
Why do we want Disneyland? Because we're a world-ass city and we want a world-ass theme park.
Do you think you also have this vision like what what's the lessons that you learned from it?
I try to have a big perspective, a wide angle. China does things sometimes which I don't agree with. But I think one of the impressive things about the 5-year plan that's just been d the draft which has just been prepared
Mhm.
is that they do think in terms of generations that this generation is building on the achievements of previous generations and must continue building to hand on to future generations.
Yeah.
And I think the the West is far too short-term isism. You know what's the next quarterly result? The next quarterly result for is that the seas are going to rise by 80 meters and you're going to be swimming for your life. You know, because you can't take ser climate change seriously. I still can't believe I my degree is in economics. I still cannot believe that the British voted for Brexit. It is the biggest act of economic self harm conceivable. The UK is a European country. Economically, it's part of Europe. They're the biggest market for European for British companies.
Yeah.
And they were huge buyers of European stuff. And there the idea this theory that it was to take back control is a joke. What happens now is that Brussels makes the regulations and then if British companies want to do business in Europe, they have to comply with them. And we we don't have any there's no British involvement in preparing those regulations. Now take back control. What a joke. Anyway, the Americans are in charge of British foreign policy.
What's your thoughts on what's going on with England with your country where you were born?
I feel very sad actually because I've I've still have affection for England. I was born there. I when they're playing cricket, I tend to support England against Australia. Uh, I still support Manchester United that even though I gave up my British passport more than 20 years ago. I have, you know, I only have a Hong Kong s passport now. I'm a 100% pure Chinese as any of your viewers can tell for themselves. And uh, so I still have and I I feel sad because I think the administration is frankly hopeless. they don't seem able to address even quite serious problems until it's a crisis and abs and even when it's a crisis they struggle to deal with it. For example, the welfare uh bills are escalating and they can't they're not they're uncontrollable. They support for the elderly and for and so on. There has to be means tested. There has to be control of there doesn't seem to be any control of public finances. Doesn't seem to be any way you can um this triple lock for pensions in the UK will bankrupt it. Will bankrupt the country. It led to Liz Trust lasting what was it shorter lifespan as prime minister than a lettuce uh from the supermarket. So there are political problems there.
Why do you think so? Why they they cannot sort it out?
I wish I knew. I'm not going to go back and do it for them unless I'm sent in as part of an IMF rescue team to rescue the British economy. Then I would take the tough decisions that need to be taken
like like what?
Control of expenditure and taxation. Taxation has to be fair to have political support. I think there's a feeling they've they've scrapped the nondom thing now where people could say they were not doiciled in the UK and therefore their overseas income was treated separately.
Mhm.
Things like this. Uh, the US tax system again is incredible. It's built for billionaires and there's too much money in politics in the USA. So I don't know here we don't have money in politics.
Mhm.
Doesn't mean Hong Kong is perfect.
Yeah.
But I think we are capable of handling these practical issues.
You are 76.
I am 76.
76. How does it feel to be 76?
I feel very young. The funny The funny thing is I was afraid I would feel old, but I don't. I I feel I feel young. I won't go into detail, but I'm still functioning in all areas.
I didn't think I would. I thought I was afraid. Obviously, things change. I mean, I've run the 10 km. I've run the half marathon three times. I always wanted to run a marathon. I guess I will never do that now. Um cuz they don't close the roads for long enough. I know how long I need and they don't close the roads for that long. So, some things I won't do. I will start hiking again. Uh, I'll be back in the gym in December and onwards after these Chinese massages are over. Finally over doing those until the end of November. After that, I'll switch to once a week. Once a month, what three times a week is taking too much out of me.
Mhm.
I'll be having another one again tomorrow and Sunday. Ah, exhausting. It is exhausting.
Painful.
Painful. I be back in the gym and get back my fitness. Lose a bit of weight. I've got to lose a bit of weight again. But yeah, feeling good. And this is the kind of city to live in when you're old.
The public transport is so good. We have a car. I I think if this one wears out, we we may not bother to get another one. The MTR is so good. The buses are so good. I walk down the road 200 m I get a choice of buses. I walk right down the bottom of Park Road. There's the Sai Pun MTR station across the road. Go anywhere. I should go anywhere for $2 because of the subsidiary subsidy for the senior citizen which is crazy. I argued against that in one of my columns.
It's too generous. Should never have lowered the age from 65 to 60. I understand why their social case above 60 cuz people tend to become isolated at home and if they're isolated not liazing with people not mixing with people then they deteriorate their health deteriorates. So get them going out, get them meeting their friends and relatives everywhere, get them going to play squash, get them going to play majong, get them involved in life. They will live longer and they will live happier, healthier lives.
Um, so I understand Bingo. Who is who is it now? Miss Wong.
It's your wife.
We all call her Miss Wong.
Okay. On a scale 1 to 10, how happy are you right now?
Me?
Yeah.
Oh, gee. I'm going to give you a Trump answer.
On a on a scale from 1 to 10, I'm a 12.
Wow. Wow. That's amazing.
Yeah,
that's amazing.
When I was growing up, I resented the royal family in the UK.
Because I think royalty is inequality. is a manifestation of inequality. It's unjust. There should not be royalty. And for a while, I was jealous of Charles. I got three A levels. I couldn't go to university. Charles only got two A levels and he went to Cambridge.
What's the name of the game here? What's going on? But later, I just had this fabulous career. All I could have asked for and more. teaching journalism, arresting people, arresting as an administrator, doing important work for the community, now in retirement with my radio show and my newspaper column. That god poor bastard never had a proper job until he was 70 and then only because his mom died. I mean, what kind of a life is that for someone? So, I ended up feeling sympathy for him instead of jealousy.
Do you have any regrets in life at all?
No, because you you learn to cope with those. They come up from time to time, but you have to you have to cope with them and move on. Did I marry the right person the first time? Probably not. But we have two great sons and I still have lunch with her every week. Did I marry the right person the second time? Probably not. But we still live together and we have great daughter and a great son and we cooperate. I proofread her um materials for her PowerPoint and she pitches for new work and she still gives me ideas for columns to write. You know, do have I done things wrong? Yes, I've done things wrong. So to that extent I regret those bad decisions, but you got to live with them. Life is not a dress rehearsal. Who said that? If the show didn't work, doesn't matter. Next night, you're back on stage. Just got to do another
Yeah.
Do a different performance. They didn't like your song, try juggling, try riding a bike, whatever.
What would be your advice to someone in their 30s or their 40s right now? How to live a happy life?
That's already too late.
Too late.
I give advice to young people uh finishing school or finishing university. I give two examples from my own life. When I got my A-level results at the age of 18, they were not good enough to get a place at university and I gave up. I got a job in an engineering factory in England and I gave up. But my mom refused to give up on my behalf. She said, "You can still carry on with study. go down to the education department office, get some forms, get some pamphlets, read about other opportunities for a further education. I said, "No, I'm I'm the first member of our family on either side for any generation to finish secondary school. I've already done my best." "No, you're going to go further," she said. So, I didn't do it. So, she went down to the education department and got all the forms and brochers and brought them back to the flat. And then I didn't I ignored them. And then she said, "Are you hoping to have dinner tonight?" And I said, "Yes, you fill in those forms."
So I looked and I applied. I drew a circle on the map. I applied for every college that was more than 100 kilometers away from home. All of those that were more than 100 kilometers away from home I applied for. And I got accepted by several of them. I ended up studying at a small college in Bristol in the west of England, but the degree I have is from London University. It's actually from London School of Economics, which sounds very impressive, doesn't it?
Yeah. One of the best schools.
I never set foot in the place. I chose to fail, which ironically, if you choose to fail, you can succeed. You will succeed in failing.
If you choose to succeed, you're in with a chance. I chose to fail. My mom did not accept my decision.
She forced me to reconsider. I chose to give myself a chance. I did succeed. Also, when I arrived in Hong Kong, I had in the back of my mind I could be a policeman like my stepfather. So, but I never made the height. You had to be 5'6 to be a policeman.
Height restriction.
And I stopped growing at 5' 5 and a half.
Mhm.
But two years later, I was arresting policeman as an officer in the ICAC. even cooler
for a hippie. This was magic. It's a point I make to young people then. Don't choose to fail and don't give up the first time there's a problem. Stick at it. Find a solution and keep going. And that's was my philosophy at that age. If I'm talking to people in their 30s and 40s now, I don't know what I would say. Ask how you want to spend the rest of your life. What do you want to be? What do you want to achieve? What do you want to leave behind?
I have four children, two per wife.
I show you a picture. Everyone in that picture is called Rouse.
Uhhuh. Your family name.
My family name. Eight of them are Asian looking. One of them is Caucasian. That would be me.
There are five British passport holders.
Yeah.
Three Japanese passport holders. Oh, Japanese.
And only one Chinese passport holder.
Okay,
that's me.
Yeah. So that the advice would be to make more kids.
I think if you're part of life, I think it was almost a requirement for me. I couldn't contemplate getting married and not having children.
Yeah.
Um, so I got married twice. So I've had two batches of children. Not advocating that for everyone.
I'm not a Trump advocate on that subject.
But having getting married, having children is a part of life.
Yeah.
Is a natural part of life. And you will be a fuller person.
Yeah.
Because of it. Are you married?
Yeah, I have two. Is it enough?
Not enough yet.
It's enough.
Eight year old and 2-year-old.
Perfect.
Two girls
also. Perfect. Girls take much better care of you than boys.
What's the meaning of life?
Be the best that you can be. You have only one life. Try not to waste too much of it. You will waste some of it,
but try not to waste too much of it. And be the best that you can be. I wanted to be a reporter. I was a good reporter. I wanted to be an ICAC officer. I was a good ICAC officer. I didn't know I wanted to be an administrator. It turned out that I was a pretty good one. And now I'm a reporter, a journalist again, columnist, and I'm on the radio. Be the best that you can be. Yeah, that's all.