Transcription
Foreign, we did a Valentine's week last week that was about relationships and marriage and sex, intimacy, all that. And some of the calls that we got during sex and intimacy and relationship week for Valentine's Day, we had hearts like flying around on the screen behind us. Some of the calls got really heavy. They were hard calls, but they were very important calls. And so we didn't end up using them in the Valentine's episodes because we were going for a very specific ethos, right? A very specific tone. But I also didn't want to lose the call. I didn't want to lose the moment that I was able to share that somebody honored me with sharing with them. And, um, man, a couple of these calls, we get questions about this stuff all the time, so they're going to help a whole lot of folks. So this is one of those calls. You're gonna see, like I said, you're gonna see hearts flying around. It's gonna be like, what is happening? I'm wearing a different shirt, right? If you're watching this whole episode, if you're listening to it, you won't know any different. But, um, I really thought this was an important call, so I want you to check this out. Let's go to Ryan in Phoenix, Arizona. What's up, Ryan?
Hey, how are you? Thanks for taking my call today.
You got it, man. What's up? So, let me give you a little backstory here. Um, been married for almost 14 years. Got married kind of young at 22. Um, so it's just kind of the culture of where we grew up and religion and the expectation is you get married young, you start having kids, right? And I tried calling off the engagement and didn't feel like it was right. Still wanted to date more and was convinced, partially, that maybe it was just anxiety that I should still go through with it. That led up to kind of the wedding day, and even at the altar, you know, where we're getting married, I wanted to say no. I knew that it wasn't right. And so, you know, with these thoughts and these feelings, so I've been struggling with feelings of regret, um, second-guessing pretty much our entire marriage, which has led to kind of one foot in, one foot out, um, never really fully committed 100%. And recently led to a, I, I feel like this kind of led to a recent affair that I had. Um, and so I'm really struggling right now with this thought process. Do I stay? Do I go? She wants to make this work. Um, why would she want to be married to somebody who has resented her for 15 years, 14 years? That is a very good question. I don't know. And I've asked her that. So I, why is she the wrong person? And I want you to articulate it very specifically and don't BS me. Like, why is she the wrong person?
I've always been attracted to other women more than her.
Okay, so say that in a way that is not a circling, passive-aggressive way. You're not attracted to your wife.
Um, I don't know how to word that. Just yes or no, man.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what it comes down to. Okay. Um, what about her do you not find attractive?
She was just, no, or hasn't ever really just been my type, if that's even a thing. And I, I struggle saying this out loud.
I know that's why. That's why I'm asking you to do it because I want to, I want to get out of you. Live your whole existence is in your feelings. Sure. And it's the articulation of some of these things that really turns the lights on to the feelings because feelings are, are terrible GPS directors. They're fantastic indicators of, "wreck car, wreck ahead, you need to exit here," but they're terrible, um, forgiving directions. And your whole life is run by feelings. That's why I'm pushing you. I want you to articulate very specifically because let's, I'll just throw something out there, okay? And I know I'm making it uncomfortable. I know it's hard what I'm asking you to do. Yeah. Um, let's say your wife is, uh, you don't find her pretty because you think she's overweight, and you have always been attracted to someone who, um, is not overweight or in your mind isn't overweight. And you fixate on her weight, and you lean in on, "Hey, what about this?" or "What if we ate like this?" and "What if we did this?" or whatever. Or there's some physical feature of hers that's just not like, I just think other people are, whatever that is, feeling after feeling after feeling after feeling. And so I want you to own. Here's a big shift you've got to make. You, you're talking with what I call distance language. "This led to this, which led to this, which led to me having an affair." I call bullcrap on that. You did have somebody that you felt all along, "I shouldn't be marrying. I shouldn't be marrying," and you married them. That happens. That happens. Yeah. And then every day for 14 years, you've chosen to be miserable. That is a conscious, daily choice you have made. You consciously chose to sleep with somebody that wasn't your wife. Nothing led to another thing. You chose that. And I want you, the reason I'm saying that directly, I want you to own it because that's the only way you can then take ownership of what happens next. Because you're going to be the guy that's like, is gonna slowly drown your wife until she finally gets the courage to leave you because you haven't had the courage to, you see what I'm saying? Yeah. Or the courage to say, after 14 years, "I've been lying to you. I actually am not attracted to you in this way," or "I, I think you're beautiful and I think you're wonderful. I'm actually attracted to her too," or "her also," or "to other women too," right? Does that make sense? It's so, yeah, there's something about saying things out loud and truthful, even when they hurt and are awful and make you sound like a complete and total ass, which I think you can be, right? So it's all of that and together. But you're living in this mushy, emotive, feeling world. And usually, if you listen to the show, I'm having to take big, tough guys and get them to sit in the emotional, feeling world. You're the opposite, man. You got to get up and face reality.
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.
And so, okay, so you, you, let's, let's, I, I don't think it's true, but let's, let's go with it. I'm gonna trust you. You made a mistake getting married, right?
Yeah.
And you're married. Why have you chosen misery for 14 years?
Good question. I feel...
There you go. I don't care about your feelings. Why have you chosen misery?
I am a people pleaser at heart.
Excellent.
And I don't like ruffling feathers. And I do that to the detriment of myself.
You do that to the detriment of your kids and to the detriment of your wife. Yes. And your faith community. Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Um, can you think back to moments when y'all were in sync and connected?
Yeah, I, I think back and I, I've thought about this. My entire marriage hasn't been a complete sham. I've been happy. We've had happy moments. Um, and I, I have a hard time sparsing out what was different then versus now, knowing that I've always had these underlying thoughts and regrets.
Isaac, gonna sound so crazy, but I don't think you have.
Hmm.
Um, as the great Brené Brown says, "What you go looking for, you're sure to find." Sure. Tell me about this affair. Where'd you meet this person?
Work.
Yeah. And how was it exciting?
Yeah, honestly, it was exciting and it fulfilled desires that I've had for a long time.
Okay. About being with somebody that I was more attracted to. What was beneath that attraction?
What do you mean?
Tell me if I'm off. You've been being told what to do your whole freaking life. Yeah. And you've been riding through life on other people's train tracks your entire life. Yeah. And somebody else essentially picked out your wife for you. Somebody picked out the life for you. They picked out your church. They picked out the building. They picked out the little white picket fence around the house you were gonna live in. Somebody else picked out the clothes that your kids are gonna wear. They picked out the schools they're gonna go to. Everybody's picked out your life for you. And I think you have taken all of that frustration and really what it is, it's rage. And you've put that on your wife. And then somebody comes along and, yes, beautiful, beautiful co-worker, sexy co-worker, laughs at your jokes, all those things, maybe does things in bed that your wife won't do, like all that stuff. But beneath that is somebody looking you in the eye and saying, "You're freaking Ryan. You can do anything." And for the first time in 14 years, probably 30 years, you felt alive. Am I right or wrong?
No, you're right.
And are you still with that person with the affair?
No.
Did the affair run out of that real quick?
No. Um, I actually changed jobs.
Okay.
Um, but if I'm being honest, I would love to go back.
Okay.
Have you given up on your marriage? And that's a, that's a question you've got to answer honestly. Because if you're out of your marriage, dude, have the courage to stop dragging your wife behind a moving car. It's cruel, man.
I agree. I agree.
And that's, that's where I have these huge conflicting arguments in my brain every single day. It is a real, real simple argument. It is. There's not conflicting back and forth. I am going to never call that woman again. Yes, she's sexy. Yes, she's beautiful. Yes, we had a wild, fun time and I felt alive. But it was cancer. I am going to never call her again. When she, when pictures of her naked body pop in my mind or things we were doing together, when that pops my mind, I'm gonna intentionally choose to not think about it. I'm gonna have another thought ready to go. And I will double down every inch of my, every second of my life will be committed to my wife moving forward. We're gonna make this thing work. It's that or it's I'm out. And both of them take bravery. And you haven't displayed that yet.
No. No.
Because I'm afraid to.
And you should be. And I'm gonna tell you this one thousand percent. And the people in the YouTube comments, bro, don't read them because they're gonna be mean to you or they're gonna be like, "You just live your own life, YOLO," or whatever, right? What's gonna happen is you're gonna go leave your wife, move into an apartment. You got kids too, three. Okay? You're gonna leave your three kids, you're gonna leave your wife, and you're gonna move into an apartment. And you're gonna have that hollow feeling. But this other girl is gonna come over for a season. And then you're gonna realize, one day, you're gonna roll over when she spends the night and you're gonna catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror and you're gonna realize, "I went with me to that new bed." Yeah. And you don't like Ryan. You never have. Yeah. And so you're trapped trying to get somebody else to make you feel worthy. And you found somebody at work, man. You found somebody that made you feel valuable and alive and excited. All those things. I believe with all my guts, any couple, any couple can reclaim that in their marriage if they both decide to. And make no mistake, your wife's gonna participate in this too. Yeah. Right? But she can't participate in something that you haven't been honest about or that you haven't been hard about or you've been like, "Man, I just, can we like spice some things up?" And she's like, "I, I don't really know what that means." You're like, "Well, you know, I need you to do these things so that I feel alive." Yeah. Or "this particular sex act makes me feel alive," or "we go away for the weekend," or "when you do this with the kids, it makes me feel dead inside. Can we try something else?" And that starts with you being brave, not blaming her for not doing stuff. Does that make sense?
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.
So what are you gonna do?
I don't know. And that's honestly, that's where I'm struggling the most is knowing what to do. She wants to make it work.
Does she know you cheated on her?
She knows.
Yeah. Where you've been in counseling and therapy?
Um, she would not still be wanting to make it work if you've been honest in therapy and you haven't been.
Okay. Have you?
No, I, I feel like I have been.
You've told her you're not attracted to her and why?
I, I have told her all of the reasons.
And she still wants to make this work?
And so, you know, I'm filled with guilt, I'm filled with shame, I'm filled with regret. And, you know, making one decision one way or the other, I'm afraid that if I make a decision, will I continue to regret and then have even more regret on top of regret if I make the wrong decision? And so we're, we've been stuck in this holding pattern of going to therapy and talking and her knowing that I'm still on the fence of not sure what to do. And it's cruel.
Um, yeah, I agree. I, I feel like I am holding her hostage.
You're holding yourself hostage.
[Music]
Um, yeah. You, here's what I, here's what I think. You tell me I'm crazy. I think you love this woman that you're married to. And I think, like all marriages, she's not perfect, and you're not either. And I think you think so little of yourself and saying your needs out loud and saying dreams of yours out loud and going and actually getting out of your own freaking head and doing, doing, acting, making moves in your life, in your career, as a dad, as a husband, as a lover, like getting after it instead of just sitting there and stewing in these, and these loop-de-loopy loopty loops, man. And I think you've cast all of your feelings of depression, all your feelings of sadness, and of, well, you know, life, you've dumped all of that on your wife because you were unsure of the marriage in the first place. I believe you on that. You're unsure of it. Perhaps 100%. Absolutely 100%. But I think the question you've got to ask yourself is, what choice am I going to make moving forward? And dude, you can't just sit there stewed up, man. You got to make a call because you're drowning. You're teaching your kids this is what love looks like. This is what a, a wife, this is how you, this is how you value and love her. This is what being a decisive dad looks like, a co-parent, and a co-creator of a home looks like, man. They're worth more than that. You are too. I think, though, until you decide that you're worth being well and you get whole, you're gonna continue on this loop-de-loop, man. And I promise you, you're gonna, if you leave your wife and go to this other person, you're gonna, it's gonna be several months before either she leaves you and you get into one of these loop-tube, "I don't know what we want for dinner," and I don't, I'm just gonna start looping on you. Or, um, you're gonna realize, "Oh crap, I went with me." I hate that. You're in this position, man. Um, it's, it's, it's you've got to start taking ownership right now. Right now. Here's the choices I've made up to now. I've chosen misery. I've chosen dishonesty. I've chosen infidelity. And you can also choose to completely hit control or delete and become a different person. You can choose that today. Or you can choose to be the guy that left his wife and kids for the woman at work. You could choose that too. God's sakes, make a choice, man. Stop dragging your family through it.