Transcription
Joining us now is Timothy Snyder, professor of history at the University of Toronto. He's also the author of The New York Times bestsellers on freedom and on tyranny. Professor, good to see you again. Thank you for being with us tonight.
Glad to be with you. It is interesting that in the moment when we talk about hope, part of that is because Donald Trump's approval ratings are so low. But that sort of forgets the fact that he was reelected after all that stuff that happened on January 6th. Our memories are shorter than they should be as it relates to the preservation of democracy.
Yeah, I mean, we can't really do democracy without history. And I think the way that Americans remember the 250th anniversary of their country is going to be very important. We can't do democracy without attention span. And so looking forward, the way we regulate social media is going to be very important. And as you've already said, we can't get by without memory of the bare facts that the current president is someone who attempted a coup d'etat.
I want to read something that you wrote, an essay that you wrote in The New York Times. You wrote this on January the 9th, 2021. It was titled The American Abyss, an historian of fascism and political atrocity on Trump, the mob, and what comes next. You said Trump was unlike other breakers in that he he seemed to have no ideology. His objection to institutions was that they might constrain him personally. He intended to break the system to serve himself, and this is partly why he has failed. Trump is a charismatic politician, and inspires devotion not only among voters, but among a surprising number of lawmakers. But he has no vision than is greater than himself.
This is dated particularly well. As I read it, I did not realize that you wrote this in 2021. It still all remains true of Donald Trump and his enablers?
Yeah, I wrote that while people were storming the Capitol. I mean, it's charming. I just said that you're citing something that I wrote five years ago, and that is exactly the problem. The big lie that he told in late 2020, early 2021, is what enables him to return, enables him to return as someone who can not only break the truth, but also break the law because those two things go together. I think the good news is that people are waking up to that and understanding that and recognizing that politics isn't just about bread and butter. It's also about truth and lies.
Some of the people who supported Donald Trump then and even thereafter were voters, some were the rioters, some were insurrectionists, but a lot of them are people who hold remarkable power in government today. Those enablers, they don't have the same protections that Donald Trump has from the Supreme Court. Why do they continue to do this?
People have a hard time many of their own mistakes. People have a hard time taking responsibility. The Republican Party has essentially been sorted out, where the most courageous people have been left or they've been pushed out. I think both Congress and the Supreme Court have taken a long time to recognize that their authority as branches of government are now seriously questioned. I think both of those branches of government are actually slowly beginning to realize that. But I think in general, a problem across the country is that we assume that something else is going to save us no matter how badly we behave in the moment and boy do people behave badly in late 2020 that the constitution or history or capitalism or something was going to ride to the rescue and that's not true the only people can ride to the rescue is us.
Well you were a big proponent of going out, taking to the streets and showing power which we did in October with the No Kings marches but you've been making this point since the beginning that as long as you think someone will save you. And as an historian this is important when you look at tyranny and authoritarianism and dictatorships around the world, when people give up that power, when they let the dictator take their lunch money, they will. And there is a different WE ARE SEEING A DIFFERENT WAY AND WE ARE NOW SEEING THAT DIFFERENT WAY. YEAH, WE HAD THE LARGEST PROTESTS IN THE COUNTRY'S HISTORY LAST YEAR. AND AROUND THE WORLD, WE should open our eyes to this, too. There have been very large protests, often led by the youngest generation in Africa and Asia and Europe in 2025. It is possible. And the point you make is absolutely central. If you think history is made without you, then it will be made without you. But if you see yourself in history and you do things, you not only feel better, but you are more effective and you have a chance.
Jack Smith in the recording of his testimony that we just heard said very much the same thing you said on January 9th, 2021. You said his objection to institutions was that they might constrain him personally. Jack Smith said these crimes were committed for his benefit. Both of you YOU MAKE THE SAME POINT. THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE SOME DEEPER IDEOLOGY BEHIND THIS. I DON'T KNOW HOW COMMON THAT IS IN HISTORY, THAT PEOPLE JUST DO THINGS TO MAINTAIN THEIR OWN POWER AND FOR THEIR OWN BENEFIT.
WELL, IT'S COMMON AT THE MOMENT WHEN EMPIRES COLLAPSE. THAT'S WHEN IT'S common. And that's why we ought to be aware of this. If we don't think the law applies to the person whose job it is precisely to execute the law, then we've given up on the basic principle that made our country something other than an empire and gave it.