Transcription
Hello everybody and welcome into Commodity Culture where our goal is to make you a better investor in the commodities sector. Today is December 17th, 2025. My name is Jesse D. And before we dive into today's standard disclaimer, nothing here is investment advice. Do your own due diligence. And today's guest is the CEO of Copper Giant, a company advancing high-quality copper projects with a focus on the Makoa copper molybdenum deposit in southern Colombia. It's Ian Harris. We're going to talk about the copper market. We're going to talk about Copper Giant and what they've been up to. It's great to have you back on the show.
>> Oh, each time it gets more exciting. So, I'm happy to be here, Jesse.
>> Absolutely. Well, a lot of the focus in the commodity space right now is on gold and silver. They both hit all-time highs this year. Silver obviously ripping. Copper, however, also hit all-time highs of around $5.80 80 cents a pound back in July on the news of potential copper tariffs in the US only to collapse dramatically when those tariffs didn't materialize as expected. However, now the metal is quietly moving up and sits at around $5.40. What are your thoughts on copper's price action this year? And do you think we're headed back to previous all-time highs and perhaps beyond in 2026?
U many people not might not know this because when you pull up your iPhone and you look at copper price you're looking at the Comex future which is in the United States. Um and you know the LME hit an all-time high again in November because it didn't see that blip. That big run-up was really uh induced by a potential uh tariff. So there was basic people were buying and saying I'll pay a 25% 30% premium because next week there could be a 50% tariff and now it's going to be worth 50% more. So people that were watching the Comex go it was exciting. I'll come back when it goes around those levels was it was very artificial because if you look at the LME price it continued it hit uh it hit record highs and so that for me is the bigger story because in the background there's tariffs what's happening in the world is China going to slow down and all the all this talk going on that normally Dr. Copper is more has a short-term vision, right? So, it's more based on where's the world going, how the world economy is doing, and how China's economy is doing. And um and it continues to go it continues to go higher and higher and higher and higher. Um because those that are really paying attention, there's people freaking out about copper and where they're going to get it from. Um because as uh you have Grasberg having issues, you had Congo had issues, you have Panama and it's kind of bringing a problem that they thought would be well we still have another year to figure out it's coming a lot closer with an anticipated supply demand deficit. Uh and that is playing out because on the other side there's a hunger and that hunger is insatiable, right? Um, so if you look in terms I I was actually looking at my old tweets today to figure out when I said it, but you know, early in last year I said watch AI because energy transition might be, oh yeah, it sounds good, but whatever. We'll do it next month. We'll do it next week. So you can just push it down the road until the commodities are there. But AI is this beast that says it's a race. And Google is fighting with OpenAI and and and uh Grok and all these guys are in a battle. And then it's also a battle of nations. So it's you cannot lose. So it's I don't care what it costs, get it for me kind of kind of kind of attitude and at the same time it's responsible for the world electrification which the world is more and more dependent upon uh electricity. So all these things are playing out and there's some real concern because there's been no discoveries, there's been no investment, there's no projects available and it's not easy to turn online. Even if you said, okay, let's have all these uh permitting issues in different countries and let's focus on it. There's still not enough projects, right? So you could turn them all on and then still the cupboard is bare. Uh so that is all playing out in front of us and I think that's the reason for such strength in the copper space and it's only going to grow.
You know, many of your viewers are very focused on on silver and we've seen a very similar dynamic uh where you had a supply demand deficit that has grown over many many years. You know, it's now like a billion ounces of silver, but there's a big difference between silver and copper and then it's the above ground inventories. Your grandma has candlesticks, right? There's warehouses sitting on it. Um so when the solar panels go, I need some damn silver. People like, oh, it's $65. I'm going to sell some of my silver to feed that beast. And so it's been fed by this above ground inventory for so long that until it's finally goes, wait a second, um grandma's not selling her candlesticks anymore until you get the price a bit higher. Um and there's no new demand and it's kind of breaking. Where copper, it's it's really quick, right? As soon as you run out of copper, there's no really above ground inventory sitting around. Uh and it affects the growth of nations. Uh so those things are playing out. and why why it's getting so so exciting in the copper space.
>> Well, you mentioned AI there. It's something we touched on in our last interview, but I think it's worth bringing up again because the surge in AI data centers obviously being seen as a major new demand driver for copper. How significant do you do you see this new source of potential demand compared to traditional drivers like electrification as you were speaking of EVs, the new middle class in developing economies, grid upgrades and all those other uses for copper? How significant could AI be for demand in your view?
So I have a ranking not in size but on uh can they live without it, right? And and AI data centers, technology which is the driver of the new world's economies uh is number one, right? Google will not care what price copper is if they need to put a data center in because they know that they'll if they lose, they're going to fall behind and it's existential for them. Um and it's existential for for nations. I mean, you we cannot lose the race on AI, you know, you have politicians pounding the table, uh etc., etc. And so that is right now. And and here's the other one. Like I remember the first report that came out a year and a half and it said AI and data centers could be uh 1% of the entire copper demand by next year. And then the next time you you turn around again, you blink and it's like 2%. And then you blink and then it's 3% and you blink and it's 4%. Because it's very similar to when you do predictions for how many electric vehicles there's going to be. Uh yeah, that was based on what the way we have to save the planet, etc., etc. But let's save the planet a little bit slower and so things can be driven and and there's some modulation into the to the to the velocity. But uh Jesse, if you have an AI company and all of a sudden you put in a big gigantic data center, I'm falling behind and wait a second. You said you were going to take six months and you did it in three. Now guess what I need to do? I need to build mine in two. So it's a race, right? It's a race and a race means faster. Oh, and once you break a barrier, you want to hit the next barrier. Uh so the demand is insatiable and will grow as quickly as possible. So I think the forecasts will be off on the on the uh underestimating the the demand for that reason. Then there's electrification. Electrification because it drives your world economy. You can't say we're going to grow 5% like what do you mean we need uh one trill one 200 gigawatts of power in order to do that and we don't have the what what build it, right? So there's there's a nation driver behind it and in terms of economies and and and companies that that require it in order to hit their their growth and so that one's also very strong and it's actually the biggest uh electrification is the biggest and if you look at uh India as a great example, we focus on China so much because it's been the biggest biggest beast in the room but there's other beasts that had need to be fed uh and and so the whole world is electrifying at the same time. Uh, and then it's obviously EVs, uh, because it's it's nice to have, right? But guess what? If you don't have enough copper, guess what happens? You don't build as many cars. It's that, you know, I think it's it's it's that because it will directly affect the price. And, uh, we're still consumer facing on that on those industries. And it sounds good to politicians, but if the price tag gets too high, you know, where it's going to be cut. Um, so you know that's the way I see things.
>> Let's talk about some of the challenges facing the copper industry right now. Declining ore grades, water shortages, longer project lead times. These are persistent problems. Obviously, there was all these issues that happened at a variety of mines, accidents, Cobra Panama getting uh shut down by the government there uh yet to come back online, I believe. Um how severe do you expect supply constraints to become due to these issues and how could they impact the copper price?
>> So, uh I'm going to start with the first comment about the lower grades, higher cost, etc., etc., etc. Codelco just put out an article I saw that said they're really worried about their big expansion because their costs are so high, right? And and uh and and that's really really a big big concern. Um but because this is for investors, right? You know, mining is a cyclical business. It's cyclical. And why is it cyclical? All right, it's cyclical because things get out of whack, right? And it takes time to catch up. And a big one is you have to in to build more mines, you need a $9 copper price. Uh and then and guess what? By the time it hits $9, it takes you 10 years to build the mines or discover them. Uh or 20 years to discover them and make a mine. So, it's out of whack. the the the the motivation and how you know hit the accelerator and how fast you can actually accelerate things and so by the time and then it again it takes 10 years everything starts building and they have oversupply and then it comes back down and copper is very interesting in that fact because the biggest of big mines right will produce 3% of the world's copper where the biggest uranium new uranium mine might supply 30% right? So it's less of a dent every time you put one of these even though they're massive to put to uh put into production the the impact on the market. It's one of the reasons actually I like copper because it's easier for my little mining engineer brain to understand that and to instead of just attraction of capital and moving fast uh you know it's it's more fundamental. So obviously this has had a big effect and then the other big effect when I joined in 1999 it was acid leaching. We used acid and all this oxide copper came online and guess what it's really hard to build new copper mines. We've only built six of them in the last 10 years of of size. Um, and so companies, you know, or and CEOs got fired, right? They go, "Oh, Pascua Lama, it's going to be oh, whoa, 12 trillion. It's not 12 trillion, but it was like multiple billions of dollars was spent on the project and it still hasn't been built." Uh, and that's risk. So, they focused on brownfield expansions, lower risk and and potentially lower cost versus the risk, right? So um but those day you know you you can only get so deep you can only get cut off can be uh so low so low I had a conversation about copper China and we'll talk about it later and I said you know it's uh average grade is a 0.51 is one of the highest grade near surface deposits on the planet he goes that's high grade I thought 1% was high grade isn't that the average feed and I said about 10 years ago and he goes yeah that was the last time I checked right? It's now .3 like it is dramatically lower the amount of rock you have to so to get the same copper you're moving three times more rock to get there. So these things are facing um you know sort of like you went to the cupboard you found the last can of beans you found the Twinkies of the last 20 years and the cupboard's dry. Um and so there's no new new there's very few new high-quality projects uh when a world is facing you got to build new greenfield projects and so that is all playing out uh and that's also why there's a lot of doom doom on the you know the people that need the copper on and me big like people are hitting the red button and there's we this is a big problem uh by some you know uh a lot of the world's organizations that focus on these type of items because there's a big concern of where it's going to come from and that's all playing out in front of us and why it's it's really when you have sorry to finish the the you know you have these production problems I won't get into what I think the supply demand gap is going to be because it doesn't matter it's it's that it's happening is what matters right because it means you have to drive new uh you have to incentivize new supply or people are going to be paying a premium to be in order so it doesn't affect their business plans Uh and because of these shutdowns, uh it brought that number closer closer to today than than than ever. And it's why the alarm bells are going off and we're finally seeing uh a lot more interest uh in the copper equity side.
>> Well, that's a perfect segue into discussing Copper Giant. uh had you on the show in October, but for viewers who didn't see that episode and and for those who did, could you give us an overview of the company and then provide us with an update on any uh significant progress or or news that you'd like to discuss since then?
A little background. I'm a mining engineer. My focus is on how to take projects post-resource at the earliest to get them into becoming future mines and did it before at Mirador in Ecuador. Ernie Masters with us did it at Cobra Panama with two of those six projects. That's our focus and it is another focus. It is to build a project of size and scale that's of interest. Um I use the Mr. Miyagi uh analogy where on the left okay on the right okay down the middle squash like grape. It's you can be small enough where you could build it yourself. You can be big enough that you become interested of the majors or nations but there's a size in between like say call it 500 million tons where the capex is so high that there's no way you can build it but you're not big enough that anybody cares. So our focus is that uh and the we believe that we had that for many reasons. I won't go into geological jargon at the Makoa project in in in Colombia because you know big discoveries are continuing north on this Andes trend. The Jurassic pellet has been extremely prolific in uh Ecuador and here's one sitting in in Colombia. And then the big big big news since our October um and so I hope people were listening then um is that we put out a new resource and we passed the billion tons of resource and this is big for us because it qualifies the project as a tier one. I only know of five other projects in a junior near surface um that are over a billion tons. It shows you how how few of them uh there are and this is the size and scale that majors are looking for. So we're in a bit of a transition in our valuation. Other guys that have similar projects are valued at least a penny per pound in the ground and we're still probably 2.2.3 cents per pound in the ground. Um, and so where I think we're going through a significant rerating, but it also puts us on a significant pathway to continue to create value as we continue to de-risk the project.
>> Well, let me make sure I've got these facts right. Um, the resource estimate estimate elevated the Makoa project over 1.1 billion tons inferred, making it one of the world's largest undeveloped copper molybdenum systems and the fifth largest molybdenum deposit globally. Are those facts correct?
Fifth globally. in Molly. I'm I'm not 100% sure, but I'll put my money that it's that or bigger, right? Um I only know of one actually that's bigger. So, it's a really big Molly resource. It's about 40% of the value is Molly. And of course, the copper side, it's also passed an important threshold on that. But 1.1 billion tons at a 0.51% copper equivalent. I think it's 15 billion pounds of co no uh 12 billion pounds of copper equivalent. So it's a big big project. It's about 5 million tons of copper equivalent. World production is about 23 million tons on an annual basis. So it gives you an impression of the size and scale. So that that is that that is a good place to be in and it was a big win for the team that had the conviction and the belief that we could get there and it's still open in all directions. So it's it's a project that can continue to grow but now you have a core a core resource that says okay it's not big enough. Yeah. 2 billion 3 billion. You're adding years to the end of the life which the majors want, right? Uh but you got a nice resource to be able to base a 20 million uh sorry a 20-year project off of which is our next big step.
>> So what are the next steps at the Makoa project?
>> So we are obviously going to continue to drill. We're going to continue to expand the resource. We're going to continue to infill the constrained resource that we put out um had areas within the pit shell uh that have never been drilled before. So that's really low-hanging fruit in an upcoming PEA. But the big one is to drive and get uh towards a PEA. And I say August not because it's a firm line, but that's kind of like where I'm aiming for. So it's a loose target, but that's the day also when we have inauguration of a new president in Colombia. So it's it's it's based around that date. Uh and that's also very exciting. A because I'm a mining engineer and that's where I really have a lot of fun. But I I think the big differentiators between this project and others that it's at 1,500 meters. It's not at high elevation. It's got clean metallurgy. It doesn't have a it's not high in arsenic. It's got it's got power lines near. It's got roads near to it. It's not going to be a camp job. People are going to be going home at every night. These kind of things really start to shine when you can demonstrate in a preliminary economic assessment. And so we should I like it because I can just see a a place between where we are today and where we need to go. and an ability to continue to create value at at leaps and bounds over the the the capital required to get there. And I think the other big one that I can't I would be foolish not to mention um was uh the poor little mining engineer in me said, "Hey, great asset, great team, and get your timing right and you'll be you'll be set." And I forgot the importance and quickly learned the importance of sponsorship. um being in the Fiora group, having Frank Giustra as the biggest shareholder and him realizing the value potential here. He's been buying on market, you know, day after day after day, showing his uh that he believes in this project and knows that if we can break that 100 million uh market cap barrier, it would be another big catalyst for us because it's such a strong institutional story. And they're like, "Man, I love this, but come back to me when we're worth 100 million so I can actually invest." So we know we have the story. We know we have it underpinned the the the way to have a much higher valuation from where we are today. Uh and it's seeming to go the right direction. So it's it's very exciting times and without the support of Frank um we wouldn't be there. We wouldn't be here today.
>> Well, copper prices are doing very well and you expect and I think many people expect this to rise much further up ahead. Deficits are deepening. With all of this in mind, how does Makoa's scale and grade position Copper Giant economically compared to other undeveloped porphyries in terms of potential capex and operating costs?
>> So obviously I'm going to be answering a lot of very forward-looking questions that these are the types of things that we study in a PEA, but I do have strong strong feelings my gut and so I've done this before. um because you're near surface because uh of that 1.1 billion tons 190 million tons the average grade is a 0.94. So it's got a very high-grade core which you need uh which don't have to have but it helps to obviously help with the economics and the payback period. But it also does something very very special. It says let's do the math. You got a billion tons and you want to mine in over 20 years that's like 150,000 tons per day. It is ginormous, right? The biggest mills are about 30,000 tons per day. So really, a copper project of that size and scale is a carbon copy of five versions of 30,000 tons per day. And the advantage of having a high-grade core uh like this, it says you could build a 30,000 ton per day project which is still very big um as a starter, keep your capital uh keep your capital reduced, call it a billion, two billion, whatever the number is hopefully closer to a billion actually in US dollars. That is something that's very palatable to a major. They're like, man, I like this. I can get a major gigantic project that could grow to 150,000 tons per day. It'll be one of the 20 largest copper mines in the world and I can start at a a size that if it doesn't go well, I don't get fired. Um and and so this, you know, if I was a CEO and I and I know that's has I'm obviously exaggerating it, that's a little bit about the way they think. The other advantages economically are obviously the the reality of being in Colombia as uh you know the cost of the cost of a miner, the mining experience that has here to have power lines and really off off-site infrastructure normally is a big division between what the the capital costs between projects when you have to build power lines and roads and ports and all these other things. These are major difference that we have the road, we have the port, we have the uh we have the power lines is going to make a big difference. And then the last one is clean concentrate. Right? When you have a clean concentrate, you can sell it to anybody uh or it's a feed for anybody. Where if you have a complex metallurgy either either in the recovery, which is which to enhance the recoveries, you have to put in a big cost items um or in where it can go. So I think these are really really really bullish on what it can uh where this project is going in a very small group of projects. I mean that's the other one. There just is not that very many projects. Um and so I think it's going to be extremely attractive. Right. There was I think Mining Mining put out a a a article that there was 32 mergers and acquisitions over the last 5 years. I might misquote it might be 10 years. It might be 28 or something. Vast majority were focused on copper. So the big M&A has been focused on companies consolidating on the production level but you know like now what do we do right? Uh so the need the next phase will be looking for projects and there's just not that many of them that will be worth the effort have a significant impact on the balance sheet and reduce risk with big returns, right? So I think the economic return might be less of a motivator for the majors as how the the amount of capital requires and get, you know, have your cake and eat it too. Be able to be able to control the upfront capital but still get a a top 20 copper mine is going to be a major uh advantage being near surface, meaning you can get into production in a reasonable amount of time will be bigger drivers uh for majors and nations.
>> Well, your points about M&A dovetail well into the next question. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are on strategic partnerships, joint ventures or potential M&A interest in Makoa and how proactive is Copper Giant in exploring those options.
>> So um I I talked a little bit about where we're going technically, what's the strategy of the company and I think we have an amazing plan because uh I can add significant amount of value from where I am today. Um, I'm also at a valuation where while it's still on a much higher, it's uh the the amount of spend that we need to do is a reasonable amount compared to our valuation, but we're still hovering around that 60-70 million market uh cap number. I think even at, you know, do the math at 112 billion pounds at a penny per pound, you're you're you're way higher than that. Uh so um is that there is already interest in this project. There has been multiple conversations around this project. The problem is the risk is asymmetrical, right? If I took a 10% stake right now, it is not big enough to make you it doesn't pay for a year's worth of of my operation. So, it's I'm assuming that and at the same time, it's not big enough for them to care, right? So, I'm just I'm just a big gigantic copper company so I don't make a mistake and mention somebody I might have a confidentiality agreement with that. Uh they're like, "Ah, here's $6 million, Ian." And then they go, "Hey, what happened to that Copper Giant?" "Oh, yeah, I forgot about those guys." But when they put in big checks, they watch it, they care, they're more involved. The other one is, "Ah, forget it. Let's just forget about that project. We're doing this other one over here." Uh, and then they pull out and then they're like, "Whoa, big copper company just left. Copper Giant must be a problem with the project." So, it's asymmetrical. So valuation is the most important thing for us to get a proper valuation where those kind of checks are more symmetrical between the risk, right? They care, they're they're engaged, they're not going where they're going to make if we face problems, they're going to find ways to to overcome them, they're going to be a partner in the project and it's a big enough check to actually make a difference. So those conversations are ongoing but it's sort of like uh we're we're lightly flirting, right? We're not really really really uh there yet because the bigger focus is getting to the value. But it's also why I said it's so exciting. You see the the momentum building. This is truly a momentum market because it continues to be so thin. You could see where the valuation could get to and getting over that 100 million mark which is the goal. It opens up not just strategics but it also opens up institutional uh and and changes the you know gets it into a better space. So fairly excited of where things are going.
Some great thoughts so far, but let's end by opening the floor to you. Anything that comes top of mind, whether you want to emphasize something we already discussed or if there's anything else you think should be on the radar of potential shareholders of Copper Giant, uh, hit us with it.
>> For those that aren't shareholders and those that are investors and, you know, they've seen the run in gold, seen the run in silver, I don't think we've come anywhere close to see what's going to happen in in copper. It's it's really coming up to be a perfect storm. And I'm I'm obviously very bullish on where copper price is going to go, but I'm more excited about where copper equities are going to go because if you're building new production chains, you're have a driver. Those who contain the resource get the get the true valuation. They're the really coveted asset. The the overall asset is even more coveted than the copper that it can produce, right? It's getting a better valuation because there's so few availability, right? That's the it's the rush for it. So that's where I'm extremely excited. And then the big one, you know, it's it's asset, it's the team, it's the sponsorship, and it's timing. And I think in Copper Giant, all those things are coming together right now. Very excited where we are being now, you know, being able to show that is a true tier one asset. Um, and our valuation is getting to where it should be and it should be nice growth path from this point on. And uh so very exciting days and and and everybody Merry Christmas from our or happy holidays it would be uh more appropriate um from Medellín, Colombia.
>> Well, Ian, thank you so much. I'm going to put a link in the description to the Copper Giant website as well as social media so people can follow along with the company. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been a blast.
>> Yeah, always exciting. Thanks Jesse.
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