Transcription
Mr. Mark Brown, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing good, thank you so much for having me. This is a thrill. Yeah, dude, no, it's a thrill for me. I'm so excited because I was telling you earlier, I've got a freaking huge list of questions for you. And in fact, I don't think I've ever started a podcast with this many questions. And the reason why is because you're a YouTuber, and like, you're, I think you're probably under, do you have more subscribers than Brachy? Uh, I haven't, uh, checked recently. You don't, you don't have an ego. You're not going to check to see if you're winning the race? You can check for me if you'd like. I'll, I'll check for you because you're, you're, you're one of the top, if not the top, like, in my opinion, like, game dev resources.
Thank you. But what's cool about your channel, you know, is that you're doing game design, a ton of game design, um, and just commentary on game design. And what's so cool about your story, and I'll have you introduce yourself in a sec, but I just want to sort of glow to over you a little bit. What's cool about your story is you took this crazy risk, and the risk was, I'm going to make a game and put all of my credibility on the line. Yep. Which is, to me, that would be absolutely terrifying. So, so you just launched Mind Over Magnet, right? Wasn't it a couple weeks ago? Or, uh, just over a week ago? Yes. Wow. Okay. So all that said, tell us about yourself and how the launch went and all that.
Uh, I mean, yeah, that's a, there's a lot, there's a lot, uh, of context, uh, wrapped up in that, but let's, let's see where we can go. Um, so I started, like, a long time ago, doing games journalism, writing for magazines, writing for websites, all that fun stuff. Started to realize that people didn't want to read anymore. Uh, reading about video games was going down, or just reading in general, going down. Yeah. Very much realized that if I want to still have a job, I better learn how to make YouTube videos. So went into that whole thing. Um, realized, like, the thing that I was most interested in when I was doing the journalism was always the design side of things. Whenever I had a chance to interview game developers, I'd be asking about design questions and stuff. So that was, like, the focus of my, my channel, which was, uh, Game Maker's Toolkit. And then, yeah, like, uh, the videos were all about analyzing existing games, playing games, talking about how they work, how they're designed. And then at some point, uh, three or so years ago, it was like, right time to put my money where my mouth is and see what this whole process is like as an actual game developer and see what it's like to put these design lessons into practice. And, uh, turns out it's really freaking hard. And but it's, uh, finally done. And boy, uh, very, very, uh, big relief to have that game, uh, done on on Steam. Hooray!
Well, more importantly, it's on Steam with a very positive score, which is, it's tough. That's tough to do, dude. And I think, how do you have 800 reviews so far? I think, uh, something like that. Yeah. And it's on, it's on, uh, about 88% uh, positive last time I looked, which, like, with a lot of things with this game, um, I have to like, hold my hands up and say, like, I've got massively unfair advantages in pretty much everything, right? So having this YouTube channel means that I've had, you know, all this help making the game, and I've got this built-in audience of like, a million people ready to go on Steam and buy. And, you know, a lot of people are going to be very generous, I feel, with the reviews of the game and kind of give me a, a bit of a pass. So I'm not like, 100% sure that all of those reviews are as genuine as they might be for a different type of game, but, uh, I'll take them anyway. Whatever.
Well, that, that brings me to something that I've been talking about, actually, with every single guest for the last, like, two weeks. Um, I'm, I'm fascinated by the idea of, of, and, and people listening probably are probably getting annoyed with me talking about it so much, but I'm fascinated by the concept of audience ownership and how it pertains to to building games and making games and releasing games consistently to that same audience. Um, you say it's an unfair advantage, and of course, I understand what you're saying, and I understand you're being humble, and, and you're, you're probably speaking straight from the heart. For me, I'm like, that's not an unfair advantage. You built that advantage over how long have you been doing your channel? You know, years. And so I'm just like, do you think that that is a sustainable business model for, for game developers? For indie game developers, specifically? Because 2024, 2025 is just going to be an onslaught of just tons, thousands of games. Yet your business model, your game, I don't know if you would call it a business model, but I think it is, is just, hey, look, I've got this huge audience. Why not release games to that audience? And if they love me and they love my games, you know, is that a bad thing? If they love Mark, is it a problem to love Mark and because of that love your games? You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, a few things. Like, one is, like, it's a lot of work to do the YouTube stuff, as you well know, versus as well as the making the game. So it's like, doing that as a way to build up your audience is, yeah, super good idea, but also just a huge, huge amount of work. And and already you're already competing. Like, you're competing with a million different game devs to release your game. But now you're really, uh, competing with a million different game devs on YouTube, all doing their dev vlogs. And that's like, become a massively crowded space too. So it has, getting some traction there. But I mean, we've seen like, a lot of success stories in that space. Like, uh, like Ponty Pants with, um, Punch a Bunch, and then the climbing game, like, you know, did amazingly well out of building up that audience as the game is progressing. So, yeah, I mean, it's definitely, um, a good idea. But it, it's not like a, it's not a silver bullet. Just because you are, in the same way you're competing, uh, on Steam, you're competing on YouTube. Um, and like, what are you, you know, what is there to talk about outside of just like, showing, uh, the latest, uh, updates on your game? Like, I think, you know, with with me, I didn't just start with the the devlog. I'd already built that audience with the the game design stuff. So it's like, what can you bring to the table that's kind of unique?
Were you concerned that you would introduce a new kind of content to your channel and it would screw up the algorithm? By the way, if you're like me and you always dreamt of making an indie game as a full-time job, I have a free webinar below that goes into exactly how to make six figures with just a demo. I was just like you for years. I thought I had to make a game in its entirety before getting a paycheck, but there's actually three ways to make six figures before even finishing your game. I've done this multiple times. So check it out below if you do want to go full-time indie. And thanks for watching.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely. Um, I, I mean, you know, I think about the YouTube algorithm a lot. And when people ask me, I've got this idea for a new type of video or something. My general advice is like, well, I'd probably just start a new channel for that. Um, for me, like, and, and it has, you know, the, the hasn't screwed up the algorithm, but the videos, the developing videos consistently do worse than the normal types of videos. And I've got audience members who just do not care about me making a game. And they're just like, where's the Mario stuff? And where's the Dark Souls stuff? And I'm just like, it's, it's coming, it's coming. Um, but it, to me, it was just like, I want my channel in the future to be a mix of Dev and design. And I think, you know, they just go hand in hand, right? You can't really just be one or the other. Um, you know, you've got to be think about design if you're making a game. So to me, it was like, I'm going to invest in this now and take the hit on the algorithm and take the hit on the views, but over time, retrain YouTube on what my my channel is, that it's not just analysis stuff, it's, it's the whole shebang. And if that's going to take a while, then so be it. But I, I think overall, it's, it's been successful. Like, I'm happy with the views, despite the fact that you have a beautiful British accent, and your content is so precise. And don't take this the wrong way, it's, it's a compliment. You're, the way you do videos and the way you do games is so controlled. It's like, it almost feels like you're a control freak about everything. Like the gra, the thumbnails, like even the sounds. And we'll talk about Mind Over Magnet, um, and by the way, the link is in the description. But the reason I say all that is because you're so controlled about every little thing, whether it's YouTube or or your games. And you got a beautiful British accent. So your content feels so textbook and clean and precise. Would you call it educational content, or is it actually entertaining content? Um, I've always, or is it edutainment? I've always, because of my background in games journalism, I've always just thought of it as a, a type of journalism, right? Like the, the, the normal videos I've done before Ever Magnet, where the idea was like, I'm just describing this stuff that's happened. I'm interviewing people, I'm bringing in quotes and stuff. It's like a feature magazine. So if you want to, if you can take some educational stuff from that, great. And I, you know, my videos have been used in school curriculums and and things. That's amazing. I've always thought that there, there's enough in there to like, get you started, but they're a little bit shallow on the topics that you, you know, it's kind of like a, a starting point to go do your own, yeah, research into the topics. But yeah, I mean, there's definitely like an educational aspect to it as far as, as you can kind of take it. Um, yeah, but like this was, um, the idea of this, like, as you're saying, the videos being kind of academic and like authorial, authoritative, and stuff, was definitely a thing I thought about when I started doing the game dev. And was a huge reason why I put myself on camera for those videos. You know, for the, uh, correct seven or eight years before I did my NE Magnet, I'd never been on camera because it was just like, felt more comfortable and felt more suitable for the videos to just be this booming British voice telling you about the stuff. And I thought, that's not going to work for a game dev thing. I need to, to be like, I'm a person. I'm like a real human being. And I'm making mistakes. And for that, like, I've got to, like, be on camera. And people can see me just like, just having an absolute breakdown.
That's exactly true, man. It was true for me this summer. We're finishing up our third commercial game, and it's just been so. We'll talk all about it. We'll talk all about your process. But the reason I asked that question was because there are people listening right now who, who have a YouTube channel as game dev, or they, if it's, I mean, let me know in the comments, guys, everyone listening, if you're thinking about starting a YouTube channel. Because the reason I ask is because everyone's curious, do I need to do this? And then the next question becomes, who am I targeting with my content? Because I see, and I've done this too, so I'm completely guilty of this. There's this weird conundrum of like, do I make content for developers? And if I do create content for developers, what's the point? Because developers, you, I heard you mention this in a previous podcast where you said you were jealous of, or you felt a little jealous of, not not Elect Head, is that what it's called? Elect Head, yeah. And you, you avoided looking at the game. And so there's game developers who they watch dev videos, but they don't buy the games from the developers because there, there is that feeling of like, I don't want to look at, I don't want to buy someone else's game because I'm going to get jealous. And I do that, that too, right? And you also don't want to take too much influence. So all that said, the big question here is like, who, who do game developers target when they create devlogs?
Yeah, I mean, like, I think you're totally right that like a lot of devlogs, a lot of the ways most game devs do devlogs are targeting other developers. And as you say, most developers aren't buying your game. And even if they are, it's a very small audience. And I think some of the most successful devlog people, like Danny and Ponty Pants and Randy and stuff, they're they're so much more entertainment. And, you know, they, they're, they're targeting more of a gamer audience who are seeing a bit of what it's like to make the game. Most of them aren't like, super, you know, detailed. You, you're not going to see them suddenly just start going into a tutorial about programming or whatever. Um, but it's like, yeah, if you are just every update for your game, like talking about really niche programming stuff and game dev stuff, you are going to limit your audience. And it's like, for me, that's, that's fine. That, that, you know, I'm not like trying to use my, um, devlogs to sell my game. But if, if that's your, your reason for making these videos on YouTube, then yeah, you really need to think, like, how am I going to get these in front of people who are actually, like, going to buy this thing, and not just a whole bunch of other game devs who are all just also having a terrible time.
Cool. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a big question. And, and it's, I've, I've sort of landed on, well, you know, I have educational products, and I, you know, I don't sell my games on my channel. And people are are surprised by the fact that I don't really. I get really granular, like this conversation right now is like super granular about the business of game dev. And so I just want, I, I'm kind of passionate about people who who wanted to start doing YouTube. I just want them to know, like, you really need to know, like, what your end goal is. Like, is it a call to action to wish this your game? If it is, you need to get gamers to watch your videos. And that's a totally different kind of content.
Did you, were you ever tempted to start a new channel? And are you going to start a new channel as opposed to just keeping it all in one place?
It was definitely, like, something I thought about. Yeah. Um, but it's, it's also, like, you know, you've got like a million subscribers. It's, it's a, waste not to, I know, not to talk to them. Um, but I always felt like my, my, if you were watching stuff about game design, then it's not like a huge stretch to then also talk about a bit of game dev and some Unity stuff. Like, but, you know, if I start talking about movies or something, then sure, that would be a whole other channel. But it, it felt like it was enough in the same wheelhouse. And, you know, every time I release one of these videos, I'm going to, I'm going to get the comments from a few people, but they're a very vocal minority. I'm not seeing subscribers drop when I release, uh, U devlog stuff. So they can just, you know, who cares. Yeah.
So, okay, let's, let's shift over to production of Mind Over Magnet. The first question I have is, how did it feel? How did it feel being this highly credible YouTuber? I mean, I would say you're probably the most credible YouTuber. Thank you. Um, as it pertains, as it pertains to game design. Um, you, your, your content is just so phenomenal. And I, I've used it. I've used it when I, like, teach my students game design stuff. I'll just say, well, watch the Mario video, you know, the Mario Odyssey video, and it'll change your mind or or blow your brain. So how'd it feel being this credible YouTuber and then launching this game last week? Was it, was it a nightmare? Like, how did it feel?
Uh, the nightmare came, like, a bit earlier. Like, that was like the, you know, it's obviously, I, it's something I've wanted to do for a, you know, I think anybody who plays video games at some point has been like, oh, I could, I could make those. And it's been something I've dabbled with and tried and and whatnot. So it's something I've always wanted to do. But yet, there was that like fear that did put me off for a long time because it was like, if I make this game, like, first of all, just, just saying like, I want to make a game, there's going to be like, a whole bunch of people in my audience who are like, oh, I thought you just like worked for Ubisoft or something, and you're like, this game dev expert, but now I see that you're just like an idiot and you don't know anything. How, you know, you pulled the wool on all over my eyes. Um, so I immediately lost all of those. As soon as I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing, but let's give it a go. Um, and then if the game sucked, then I've lost even more people who are like, well, what's the point? I did actually have a realization the other day, cuz I thought, there's, you know, there's this consistent number, very small, but like, a number of people in my comments who are like, why does anyone listen to Game Maker's Toolkit? The guy's never made a video game. And I'm like, I'm about to get rid of all of those comments because I'm about to release a video game. And they realized they're immediately just going to change it to, why do we listen to this guy? He's just made this crappy little like, 2D platformer thing. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to win with those people. And I just kind of realized like, I just can't live my life worrying about trolls. And, uh, the, the, the benefit that I can add to by making these dev logs is, uh, so much outweighs like, the, the fear of of failing in public.
Exactly. You know, I, Mark, I feel the same way, man. Like, um, I was feeling this way yesterday, um, feeling fraudulent and feeling like an impostor and all the stuff that every indie game developer feels. And every YouTuber or like influencer, like nobody is really, I don't know about you, but I don't think anyone is emotionally truly built to to receive so much like of an audience. Like in in throughout human history, we just didn't evolve that way like socially to be like, I'm gonna have a million people look up to me. Or in my case, I'm gonna have 390,000 people look up to me and look at me as this credible influence that they need to listen to. It, I just don't think I'm emotionally built for that. I guess I could just speak for myself. And so I, I'm always going to feel like I can't live up to that, you know what I mean? I can't, I can't live up to that. Even so, like, we're on our third commercial release, and this one is this big 3D game, costs $100,000 to make. I've got a team now. And dude, I still feel like, who am I? Like, I've got some two, two stupid little 2D games that I released on Steam. They weren't, they weren't particularly viral. Yet, I know they brought me money. Like, I, a full-time salary, right? We made money, and it was great. But I got a five out of 10 on GameSpot for, or I always mix those up, GameSpot or GameStop, whichever one. Spot. Yeah. Yeah. Spot. Yeah. It's spot. Yeah. So I got a five out of 10 on on one of my games. And so it's, it's like, although I know that I'm doing this for a living, and although I know I'm successful, I still feel, I don't know, I feel gross, or I feel like I'm fake or something. No, I think I maybe I'm afraid that people will think I'm fake. Yeah. You know, I don't know. I don't know what it is.
Yeah, I, I mean, those things of like, popped up every now and again when I've been doing this stuff. But like, I come back to a few things. There's one is like, if you are actually like an an expert who can deliver information about your your field, you you probably have like, a very, very narrow amount of information you can give. So if you go to someone like Jonathan Blow, like an amazing guy, and he knows like a billion things about like puzzle design and all this sort of stuff. He probably doesn't know too much about like making like an RTS or something. He's never done that. It's not in his wheelhouse. And so people who can speak, which is something I've like been praised for, and I, you know, wear as kind of a badge of honor, is a much more broader understanding, even if it's shallow in each individual thing. But like, that ability to like, speak on all sorts of different topics and synthesize information from other people and then present it in a nice way, like, even if that means I'm not like a, a dedicated expert, that's one thing. Two is like, um, just anyone who's released a game immediately has like, a step up over 99% of the Their audience. And like, for you, like, already releasing two games and working on a third, like, you just have so much experience, even if it doesn't feel like it, you just like inherently just do. Um, so there, there's always that. And, and ultimately, like, the other thing I, I found when I first started doing, um, the game dev, and especially like in the early days when I was making like, the worst mistakes and like, you know, doing like really embarrassing stuff, is that the comments from, uh, average people, like, not just gamers, they were the ones saying like, oh, dude, you're such an idiot, you're making all these mistakes. But the, the, the game devs were just like, dude, up in there, like, I totally, you know, we've all made those mistakes and stuff. So anyone who's kind of got any like, credibility or anyone who's been in the trenches is just, they, they're, they're so much more open to to these sort of experiences compared to, you know, I, I don't know, maybe it's like harsh to say, but for the most part, when when I get these negative comments, I'm just like, what have you done? Like, where are you coming from? Like, at least you, maybe my game sucks, but at least I made it. Like, at least it's done. So maybe this is a very harsh view.
No, it's not, Mark. I mean, it's, uh, it's I've turned into a zealot when it comes to. I get really angry. I get really angry. I don't get about a lot of things, but I get really frustrated when I'm being told I'm doing something wrong. So like, I'll live stream game dev, or I'll do a video or a dev vlog or something, and it's like, well, you should have done it this way. Or your 3D models have a bunch of endgons. Or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or your code is a mess. And I'm just sitting here going, that, that's probably why I'm actually finishing my game. Because I, I don't really care. The, to me, the biggest one was when, uh, the developers of Celeste released their code. Um, and there all these people on Twitter being like, oh my God, I can't believe it's a single, you know, script. And all the things in there. I'm like, it's Celeste. It's like one of the best platformers ever. It's probably made them millions of dollars. It worked. Like, what, what, what is there to complain about? Like, they didn't do it wrong, obviously, because it, it clearly worked.
Yeah, yeah. Well, we, we're in an age where we can afford to do things wrong, you know? It's like, if Mind Over Magnet is using a bunch of physics objects, and you know, you're using all this real-time lighting, and the code is terrible, you can still get away with it. Yeah, you know, because everyone's generally, like, generally everybody who's playing games on Steam has at least a mid-range PC. You know, and so you can just get away with it. Um, and that's what I'm all about. I'm all about like, get your game done. And in fact, one of my mantras is, finish crappy game ASAP. And release it.
Oh, yeah. You're an exception to the rule because I do know you made a, you made some small little game, and everybody's starting to find out your origin story. Is you had a tiny little game before this one? But your technically your first game wasn't crappy. Like this one you just launched is technically your first game. Most people, they release a crappy game. And that's what I always say is release a crappy game ASAP. Just get it out there because you've got to just get those, those battle scars and just learn that you're actually, you're not a genius. You know, now you are, but most game devs aren't.
No, no, I, I totally agree with that. And like, I, you know, there's so many things about this game that I'm not happy with. And I just kind of had to release it at this point, even though, you know, the perfectionist of me would rather keep going. But I'm like, I can't keep working on this thing for like, seven years. This is the thing I've been like, realizing is that when you see these like solo devs making their first game as a success, the big one would be like, Stardew Valley. And it's like, sounds great. The guy took like, seven years to make it. That is that is untenable for most people. Like, it worked out great for him, fantastic. But like, you have to really think about the, the numbers of these things. Of just like, if you want to be a solo dev and make your first game, like, you're just going to have to keep rebuilding and rebuilding it, because you're going to get better. And it's just going to take years and years. And it's like, if you want to do that, great. Like, but the much smarter, sensible approach is just like, make something that sucks, get it out there, figure out what it's like to release a thing on Steam. And then just, I mean, everything you do, you learn so much. Like, there's nothing you do in life where you don't go, if I could do that again, I'd do X, Y, and Z better. And so it's just like, get that first thing done. And I, I wish I'd sort of done that for myself for this first game. But I, I, you know, the, the weird like exception I had, or the thing that made me a bit different was the one kind of flip side of, you know, saying that having this YouTube channel was this unfair advantage. The one flip side is that it had so many, so I had such heightened expectations for this game and so many eyes on it. So it was like, I can't, I can't make something crap. I can't just put out this crappy first game because, like we were talking about, it'd tank my credibility. So I had to just keep on going with that.
Did you, did you feel like your audience, were you afraid that your audience would guide you in directions you shouldn't go?
Um, a little bit, yeah. I mean, I just tried not to. I tried to like, very much cherry-pick the comments, the stuff that was helpful to me and and and stuff. It was also like, amusing to see comments that maybe I would have said or thought before I started doing game dev. That once you start doing it, and you see these comments, you're just like, what are you talking about? They'll be like, you know, I made like a video about how like, I'm struggling to decide if it's like a puzzle game or a platformer. And you see these comments being like, just make two games. And then on the start screen, the user just chooses. I'm just like, what are you talking about? Just double your budget, Mark. Double the time it takes. Exact. What's the big deal? And so, you know, again, it comes back to this like, maybe I'm being really harsh, but some comments, just just throw them out. Like, they're just the person is just, they just don't know what they're talking about.
Well, I think, I think you've probably toughened up as a content creator, uh, just with YouTube in general. Um, I don't really read YouTube comments anymore because for me, like, if I read one that's negative, it, it will stay with me forever. Like, it will live in my head forever. Even if I don't believe it, even if I know it's wrong, it will stay there forever. In fact, I can, I shouldn't say this because people will troll me, but it, it, I could probably remember every single negative comment. Like, I could probably write them all out. Um, and so people, for me, um, my, my, my hope for game developers is that they can start to build a thicker skin. And I've tried, I feel like I have. I used to be a lot worse than I am now. But, um, the goal with, with, with game developers, I feel like one of the primary goals should be to build that thick skin and to be, be willing to be naked in front of a huge audience. Whether it's a, you're a YouTuber, or whether you make games, you're going to feel naked when you launch your game. And you just have to be okay with it. You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've had, I've definitely had like, times in the past where the fear of criticism or the fear of putting something out there and it failing has stopped me from doing stuff. But that, like, at some point, I just realized that that's like a really, that's like such a toxic thing or such a negative thing of just like, stopping myself from doing things that I found interesting, just because of that fear. Like, and it might not even happen. Like, you know, with this game, like, it, for a long time, it stopped me making this game. And I'm like, I'm so glad I made it. I'm so proud of it. And it's so exciting. And like, there's some alternate reality where I'm just like, oh, but someone might say it sucks. And, um, I'll never make this game. And I'll just do nothing with my life. And it's just like, what a, what a waste. So yeah, I mean, I, but yes, I've definitely was kind of lucky that I did develop that thick skin through doing YouTube. There have been, you know, definitely times in the past where negative comments just destroyed me. I'm like, released a video, people are disagreeing with it, and I'm like, I guess they hate me. I guess I've, I'm the worst person ever. And, and, you know, doing that over years and years, you start to just kind of build it up. But even that, all being said, like, I go on Steam, I scroll down through the comments, I just completely ignore all the positive ones. I see that red thumbs down. I'm like, well, let's give that a read. Let's destroy my mental health today. But, um,
Well, there was one comment, not to call out. It was, it was a positive comment. I, I read through your comments. And for the records, you got incredible comments, or reviews, I'm sorry, on Steam. There was one that I found fascinating. Okay. I haven't read my reviews, so you can tell me. Okay. This one's good. This one, I actually think it's, it's a thumbs up. And it actually encapsulates what I think game developers should be doing. Okay. And the quote is something like this: "Game is like a cheap pizza. You buy it for 10 bucks, and you eat it, and it tastes good. And then you're, you're done." Yeah. And I feel like that was your goal, wasn't it?
Uh, I guess so. I don't really, I don't, you know, the goals kind of shifted so much with the game. So like, when I first started, it was like, okay, I'm going to make this like, 50-hour puzzle, you know, adventure thing with like, a million levels. It's going to be amazing. And by the time I got to release, it's just like, yeah, it's like, two hours, whatever, just chuck it out. Um, so I'm kind of happy with that. Um, I'd say like, with all the negative comments, I like, just foresaw all of them. Like, anyone who says the game is short is like, yeah, I know. Yeah. Or the game is easy. Yeah, I know. The only ones that kind of caught me off guard is like, some people are like, oh, it's kind of, uh, bland and, uh, not very like, um, there's not like a lot of heart in it. People say. And I'm like, I thought there was. So maybe that's just me as a human being, but, uh, they don't feel like there's heart in it. Yeah. They're like, it's kind of like a, like an AI generated video game or something. No, no, I don't feel that. But maybe, but then maybe that's just who I am.
Well, to defend, to defend why I said that, I think it's a good thing that they said that. Is I remember watching your videos about the development process when you first started. And you had, I think the video was called something like, "I Decided to Make a Game" or something. And you, you talked about scope creep and how you want to stay focused, you know, and you don't want to make the mistake that is classic for all these indie game developers, which is just building something massive. You made something tight, small, uh, with a very fresh hook, very unique hook. And that, to me, I like, one of my favorite, you, maybe you don't know this, type of pizza, but in America, the cheapest pizza you get, like the Taco Bell of pizza, is Little Caesars. Okay. And and I love to eat Little Caesars. I eat it all the time because it makes me happy. And I, it's a quick burst of joy. And then I'm done. Yeah. And that, my hope for indie game developers is that they can look at their games like a, a, almost like, man, this is going to sound terrible, but almost like fast food. It's like, you're not making like this super fancy meal. You can leave that to AAA because it's going to take them tons of time and it's going to be so expensive. Indie game developers are like, no, I'm just going to make something small and tight now. It doesn't have to be like fast food, but it just needs to be something that is small and like, almost like precious and delicate. And I, and I, I see that comment about the pizza. It's like, it's a cheap pizza that I like, and I eat it, and I'm done. And I think that that is, it's the safest route to go in in the indie game industry right now. In the past, you could gamble and you could say, I'm going to make a, a 10-hour experience, or I'm going to make a 10, a 5-hour experience. I'm going to put all this money into it. And because there's not that many games coming out, it'll do well, sort of almost by default. And as we, we grow in the industry, and as the industry grows, and and the ocean of Steam games gets more and more dense, um, and the demand, the supply goes up, and the demand goes down. My theory is, make these tight little, little gems and just launch them and don't spend too much time on them. What do you think about that?
Yeah, I think it's, I mean, it especially with your first game, keeping the scope down is is massively important. Um, in terms of like, you know, the thing I've been thinking about in terms of finding like an audience on Steam is, um, there are, instead of trying to think of like, all of Steam as like, I'm trying to get my game on all of Steam, is thinking that there are smaller communities on on Steam and other platforms. Like, these are the people who love puzzle games, or these are the people who love Factorio style management games. And being like, laser focused on those people. And just being like, I want to make a game that you are going to love. And knowing exactly who your game is for. And getting in those communities and in those Discords and in those Steam forums and stuff. And being like, this is the, the latest one for you. I think that might be like, a, a way to try and get through this, the, the obvious problem with Steam of just there's like, 10,000 games a year. And being like, how can I stand out? It's just like going to the people who already have like, their their taste set on Steam and being like, I want to join this little community and I want to bring this game. Um, in terms of like, scope, though, yeah, I mean, I think that's just generally good advice, especially if you're solo or have a small team. Any kind of massive game is just going to be just such a, a huge risk. It's like, why, why bother with that when you could make, instead of making like, one tremendously huge game, like knock out like three games over, you know, one, one a year. Um, you've got like, three times as many chances of of it getting a hit.
Yeah, it's, it's essentially like, uh, you could spend two years full-time, which everyone, if you're full-time, you're going to have a salary. So let's just say that's $120,000. That's two years, $120,000 spent. Let's hope and pray that your game makes at least minimum when you launch it. Or you can approach it and go, no, I'm actually going to do it maybe just one year, and that's $60,000. So you're sort of de-risking. I mean, it's, it's like, you don't invest all your money in Apple stock. You invest it in Apple and then Adobe. You know, you're, you're sort of mixing it up and de-risking. So let's shift gears, Mark, to production. I want to hear about how you made this game. The technical side, okay? Um, we've talked about the emotional stuff and and how it feels and the marketing and all that. Tell me about the, the, the thing that I'm curious about the most is idea generation, coming up with a good idea, coming up with a hook. And you seemed to know that you needed to do that. I don't know if it was intuitive or not, or just after years of games journalism, you realized you needed to have a hook. Is that, did you do that intentionally?
Yeah, sort of. I mean, I, it's, it was kind of clear to me that most, almost almost all of the like, big indie games you've heard of have a, a way that you can talk about them in a sentence, right? You're like, oh, Undertale, it's the game where you can befriend the monsters. Or Crypt of the NecroDancer, it's the roguelike that goes along with the music. I'm just like, that is just seems like kind of an obvious smart way to be able to market your game and for it to stand out. And if you're just like, it's a platformer, it's, what are you going to do with that? Um, and so, yeah, I wanted to do the, the whole magnet thing. It seemed like a mechanic that I hadn't seen in a lot of games. Um, and, and yeah, and it was, it was also like, just useful to have this thing that I could always come back to, like, whenever it was like, what, you know, sort of character should be in the game, or where is the game set? And it's like, oh, it's magnets. It's not going to be a fantasy setting. That's, you know, kind of makes sense for a factory or something. So it was like, really useful to have this, this like, central pillar that everything could rest on top of.
Yeah. Do you think that, uh, do you think that story is a good hook for games? Or does it need to be mechanical design? I guess it depends on the genre, right? So if you're doing a visual novel or something, you don't need like a crazy new mechanic in that. It's people are coming to that for the story. Maybe a a certain type of RPG. But if you're doing a platformer, uh, it's like, it's called have a story and people will come for that. But it's, I don't know, I just find that I think that's going to be like a harder sale. Um, so, but you know, there, there games do sell because of their stories, or their visuals. You know, and by the way, just, just side note, um, you said, you know, Celeste is this massive, massively successful platformer. Does Celeste have a hook? That's a good question. Celeste's hook, I mean, I think it's less like obvious and specific. It's, it's more of this sort of like, I think maybe the hook of it is like, it's this hard platformer that's secretly about like, anxiety or whatever. You know, it's like, it's got this thing. So I suppose that is a story, uh, element to it. Um, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I see contrast there. Contrast is always a really good way to create a hook. So it's like, uh, something like insanely brutal platformer. Mmm. I don't know if it's brutal, but it's difficult, um, with a very delicate theme, a delicate, you know. There's also the, the case of this, like, a few games get to be like, the best in their genre. And that is their hook. So like, Hollow Knight is just like, it's, it's a Metroidvania, but it's, it's the best Metroidvania. And so it's like, that, that's the hook. The, the hook for me with, with, with Hollow Knight has always been my assumption has been, Mmm, I think they started with, you know, Metroidvania or like Souls-like, but with bugs. You know, that's, that's the bugs are the, the hook. And I, I think over time, it became something like, no, it's just, it's so visually compelling, right? The visuals. There's, I mean, there's a lot of hooks with Hollow Knight, but I think the visuals are the primary one.
Um, yeah, it's definitely a big part of it. I think also they do a lot with the lore stuff of Hollow Knight. Like, that's like a whole, you've kind of got like, a whole other audience of people who are interested in this, this whole backstory type stuff. So I guess having multiple ways into your game is good. But that's also like, really hard to do. And requires like, a huge, it kind of goes against what we were saying of just like, make some one part of your game really good and, and kind of focus, like, all of your effort into that.
Sure. Did you have a, so you had your hook? Did you have an idea of what your forte was as a game developer and what you needed to lean into?
No, I don't think I have a forte as a game developer. Um, I, I had a list of things I can't do, I suppose, that helped. I've just like, I have literally no idea about 3D, so that's definitely out. Um, I'm not a seasoned programmer at all, so it's got to be a very simple setup. There's not, you know, crazy systems in the game. So, you know, people say creativity, uh, Al restrictions, uh, boost creativity. So there was partly that. Um, but it was just like, things I, I was just kind of drawing on a lot of stuff I already liked, platformers and puzzle games and stuff, and and 2D visuals. So knowing the, if I focused on stuff that I liked, hopefully there'll be an audience for it.
I, I kind of feel like you knew intuitively, man, because maybe, maybe you knew subconsciously, because when I look at Mind Over Magnet, I am like, dude, I'm not kidding. I got chills about one thing. And it was the game feel.
It was so, I don't know what the word is. It's like crunchy, and the sound is so crisp. And you relied so heavily on delicate, almost ASMR sounds in the game, like the, the, the squeaking of the wheel when you jump, and the crunchy falling, um, plates, and the, the sound of the moving wheel when you move. That stuff is like, that's video editing to me. Like, video editing sound is so important when, when, when you make a cut, or when you jump to something, or you swell to something and transition to something.
Do you feel like your video editing maybe gave you insight into game feel a little bit? I mean, part of it was just, I've done a lot of videos about game feel, and obviously, you know, looked at games like, like Celeste and stuff that just have this, this great feel. But yeah, I mean, in terms of video editing, I mean, one thing that, like any video editor, especially on YouTube, knows, it's just like, you can never have a, a static thing on, on YouTube because people think that your video is buffering. So it's like, you've always got to have some motion and things. So that was like, I felt like that was similar with, with game dev, of like, if your game ever looks like it's a screenshot, then that's no good. It's got to always be, there's movement. So the backgrounds are all animated, and there's just like particle systems and stuff. Like, it's got to, like, look alive and kind of inviting in that way.
And then, yeah, sound design. Sound design was like something that I have, I've never done any videos on sound design. I have no knowledge about it. But it's, I'm really, I am pleased with the sound design. I do think it does, like, feel like that, that is a whole, um, aspect of it that I think does, like, add to the feel. It, it was also something that came in quite late. There was like, a year, like probably a year of development where the game was just completely silent. And then you put in one sound effect, you're like, "Oh wow, that's, that makes a big difference. I should have done that much earlier." Sure. That's one of the first things that I do is when I'm, and it's, it's a, it could be a problem because it definitely leads to like, some kind of scope creep where you put in all the sounds like, right away. And then because your game, you're changing the mechanics as you're learning what the game is as a developer, you end up killing the sound. So, but I have to put it in for me because I have to. It's the only way I can like feel the game, right?
I had a funny thing where I, I showed, like, I was showing some videos of the game in development to people on my Discord and realized that I had like the microphone on, and I was doing the sound effects of the game like with my mouth. So I'm just like, and like, to me, it's just like, you, you know, it was so important. But yeah, like going forward, if I do more games, like, yeah, sound is, is definitely going to be something I throw in, even if it's placeholder. Like, it's, it's just vital.
Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's definitely, I would say it's one of the strongest points, or one of the strongest elements of Mind Over Magnet, is the game feel, in my opinion. It's, cuz, uh, I played a ton of games from indie developers yesterday and the day before. I just do a live stream where I review indie games. And most indie games suffer because they just feel clunky and chunky and heavy and bloated, and, and they don't feel reactive. Um, whereas Mind Over Magnet, you, you created something that just feels so, I, I'm coming back to that, that, that what I said earlier, where you, it feels so controlled. And, and it's almost like you're intensely controlling about the game feel. And I'm curious if you can, is there anything you can share with us about game feel? Like, what, what do, what can indie game developers do listening right now to create better game feel? What are some principles?
Yeah, I mean, so during, like, an early prototype of the game, I just grabbed a basic character controller off the internet, you know, already existing, chucked it into Unity, and was like, "That's good enough." And the feedback was, "It's not good enough. Like, it doesn't, it just feels bad." And all these sorts of things. So I took like a good month just on the character controller, just like an scene and Unity with some boxes to jump on. And just spent ages just tuning those, those, you know, the, the jump height and the, the, the gravity of when you come down. Just keep playing it over and over again and sharing builds. Uh, the Celeste devs actually, um, no, like, I sent him a build, I'm just like, "Dude, is this good enough?" And he said it was. He said it was pretty good. So that was nice. Um, so just like, you can't spend, you can almost, you almost can't spend too much time on that, just because it's like, what is the, what is the user doing the most? It's like running around and jumping. So that better feel, damn good.
And there, yeah, like said, there's plenty of indie games where I, I played a game yesterday, I'm not going to name it, just because I started playing and was just like, "This just doesn't feel nice to move around." Like, it's just turning me off immediately. Um, other things with game feel, like, yeah, sound effects, we say particles, like dust, um, all of that sort of stuff. I guess that also does kind of come out of, of video editing, of like, you soon realize that if you just have like some graphics on a plain colored background, it looks fine. But as soon as you start putting in like a little bit of texture and some like background, you know, elements and stuff, like, every little tiny bit, like adds so much more. So, like, um, like music, where if you just have one instrument, it sounds bad. But you got to have the bass in there and the drums. It's just like, it's all this layering. And so I find that with, with game feel, it's like, it's the, the, the animation and the sound and the, the movement controls and the particles, all together. You, you can't have it without all of those ingredients. Exactly.
You know, I, I, I think that game feel is something like trying to replicate the human body, the human experience, right? We've got all these senses. And so when I, when I put my hand up in the air and I put my fingers together in a, in a game, that's not enough. Like, let's say the char, like, I've been learning this with first-person shooters, and that's what we're working on right now. If I move my fingers up in a game, let's say I want to animate the character like snapping his fingers in the game, a, a normal sound, like a normal volume of a snap, is not enough. Um, because the, what I'm feeling right now personally, when I snap my fingers, there's a vibration. I can feel the touch of my fingers. I can hear it, right? Um, so there's like, there's a, there's a vibration that goes through my body. And so the goal with games, in my opinion, is to replicate those senses in the game. And so if that means you got to bump up the volume of a single snap of fingers, that's almost unrealistic, right? If the, if the hand, like, um, the way I animate my guns in, in Twisted Tower, is they're really quick and snappy, right? So a snap in real life might be like this, but in a game, it's like this, you know, just to replicate that human experience.
Um, the problem with that, and I wanted to ask you about this, I, there, there's something like a balance of reactivity and challenge. So, for example, um, if, if when I first started playing Hollow Knight, it did feel heavy. I felt like it was, I felt it didn't feel reactive. And game feel, one of the cheat codes with game feel is reactivity, giving instant gratification to the player, fast movement, the jump height is really high, there's, um, the fall speed isn't floaty and slow. The problem with that is that if you're giving too much reactivity and giving, giving the player too much control, then it's not difficult. Did you find that to be a challenge with, with Mind Over Magnet?
Uh, well, I mean, so for that game, like, it was, I didn't want moving around to ever really be difficult. So I wanted the play to have as much control as possible. I think we do see this where it's like, you look at, like something like Hollow Knight, or like Spelunky, is like one of my favorite games. And I don't think Spelunky has like amazing game feel. Like, it is kind of weird when you first start playing that it does move a bit strange. But that's kind of what the whole vibe of the game is going for. It's going for a more deliberate pace. So I think it really does come down to, I think maybe this is something that perhaps as, like, YouTube people talking about games, we can sometimes fall into the trap of, is just like, "Oh, your game has to feel extremely slick and extremely responsive and stuff." And it's just like, yeah, if that's the type of game you're going for. But if you're making something like, um, like Limbo and Inside, again, like, they do not, like, they feel almost objectively kind of bad to play, you know, the characters move so slowly and stuff. But that is like the whole point. And it's just the point. It makes the game like, it is what it is. Like, that is, you couldn't have, you wouldn't want to have Limbo where you're like dashing around and you've got like super slick response. So it's, it kind of comes down to what type of game you're, you're going for.
So Spelunky does get like difficulty out of the fact that your character's kind of weird to move, maneuver, and like the whole thing, like this balance is when you press attack in that game, like the character has like a wind-up animation of his whip that it adds this like weird timing thing where in any other game, you'd want it where you press attack and the whip just immediately snaps out and and kills the enemy. Absolutely. But like Derek, you like realized like, it's so much more interesting in his very deliberately paced game to like have that wind-up where you have to like time the back-at coming down. So it's like, what do you, where, where do you want the challenge to be in the game? Like, also, you know, we talk about, sorry, I'm going off an absolute rant here about great, but like Celeste, you know, we talk about challenge, like Celeste is super challenging, but also has incredibly tight controls. So how, how do we square that? Well, it's just like, it's in the level design. It's in the challenges. So it's like, it's not ever hard to move your character in Celeste. It feels amazing. But it's just like, and then how do, where do they make you maneuver, and what crazy these spikes are they going to throw at you and stuff. Sure. That was a complete rant. I'm so sorry. No, I love it. I love it.
You know, it, it makes me think about one of, one of the benefits of releasing multiple games is that game developers can figure out what their, what their forte is, like, what they're naturally gifted at, what they love, what they enjoy. Like, I, I can, I can imagine you kind of have a good idea of what your fortes are now as a developer, right? And because you've released your first game, and you, you can read the room now, and you can see what worked and what didn't. And the reason I bring that up is because that then dictates, it can dictate the genre you choose to stay in, the lane you choose to stay in. And so for me, it's like, I'm really gifted at game feel. I can make things feel snappy and and crunchy and poppy and delicious. And I, I tell my team, I want, I want, uh, I want the player to smell the game. Like, it's so vibrant in its game feel. But, but that means that I'm limited to games that where game feel is so salty and, and, um, ever present in the game. I don't think I could ever make a game like Spelunky, like, or, or like Dark Souls. In fact, I can't even play Dark Souls. I can't handle it. My brain cannot function when I play. And also, I lose my temper. Is, do you find yourself, um, purposefully limiting yourself to a certain genre based on your skill sets that you understand now, a little bit?
I mean, partly, I just based on like, the part of the point of making the game was to learn about game dev and show people what it's like and stuff. And so, it's, I'm, I'm not trying to, uh, just transition into being a game dev and then like, try to capitalize on the, the next. So, like, if I do make a next game, I don't know if I ever will. But if I do, it won't just be like a way to, you know, make money and stuff. It's like, what other things can I explore? And, and how much sort of value can I bring? So the thought of doing, like, you know, probably the smartest thing for me to do would be make another puzzle platformer or just a platformer and use all of the stuff I, I learned. But I'm kind of like, I want to do what is the absolute opposite. Like, I, I want to do like a visual novel, or something like, or, or a first-person shooter, like you're doing. Like, what completely different skills can I bring in? So I think like, for anybody else, that's like a really bad idea. Like, if you've found something you're good at, and you can, and you've learned loads of skills, then yeah, probably find ways to to capitalize on that. But for me, I'm just like, what, what's, what's next? What can I do different?
Yeah, and, and I think about your fortes, just, just from watching your channel and also, um, from Mind Over Magnet, I see two fortes you, well, three actually. And I love doing this with, they probably feel weird when I do it. I write down their fortes because I want to encourage them. Um, you are very gifted visually. So your, your art is actually gorgeous. But it's very, it's, it's very controlled and tight and precise, and it looks almost, it's almost like you're a graphic designer.
Okay, well, that's, I'd say like, that's like, just because I'm not like a good artist. Like, I can't really, I'm not like, I'm not very good at drawing things. But I, I think my skill is like, I, I'm quite good at composition and color and that sort of stuff. So the elements in Mind Over Magnet are really simple. Like, the magnet itself is just really basic shapes. My character is squares and circles and stuff. But it's like, okay, knowing that the game is, if, if based entirely on my art, is going to look terrible, like, what the hell can I do to make this look good? So we're going to throw in some particles, we're going to use post-processing, we're just going to like amp up every other element of it, because I just, you know, I can't draw.
No, I mean, that's what's so funny is I hear people say, uh, developers say that all the time. They're like, "I'm not good at drawing," or "I'm not good at art." And I'm like, "Yeah, like, you're not good at one kind of art." But, but like, for you, clearly, you're good at art in its own, in your own lane. You're also really good with game design, obviously, because you have a deep understanding of it. And then you're also very, very good at game feel. And so, so we've got art, game feel, and game design. And so, I, when you, when I heard you say you don't know if you're going to make another game, I just want to throw this out there. I really think you should. You're really good at it, clearly. And I think you're underselling yourself when you say that your audience is the only reason, or one of the main drivers of why the game did well. I think it's just a, it's clearly, it's your first game, dude. And so you've clearly got a skill there that's nested in you this whole time. So I just wanted to encourage you there, man.
Well, thank you. Uh, I mean, I very, I am proud of it. Like, I know, like, I'm, you know, I know all of the flaws. I could, you know, write the most negative review possible on Steam, like, break down what sucks about every single level. But I did, like, enjoy it. Enjoy the process, and I am proud of the release. In terms of, like, uh, you said, like, being good at the design aspect, that is the, the one aspect of of the game that I wish I had been able to, like, spend more time on. I, I realized the other day, like, I spent so much time and effort and energy just making the game exist that I didn't really have much time left to make it, like, good. Like, there was just so much of my brain was in coding and production and all this stuff. I'm just like, "I just wish I could have just spent time just really, like, noodling on the design." Um, you know, the structure of the game, the puzzle design, and stuff. To me, that's the area that I'm, I'm most, I don't want to say disappointed in, but the, the area, like, I wish I just could have spent more energy.
I think it's the hardest. I think it's the hardest part of game development. It's, it's so hard because, like you said, you're worried about, does it look good? Does it feel good? Does it sound good? How's the story? You know, oh no, there's like a million bugs. And then, and then you do your, how, by the way, how did alpha testing go? Because when I finally get through that slew of issues of all the things I just mentioned, and I lock in everything, the art looks amazing. And then I do alpha testing, and I do beta testing. Everybody's like, "I don't even know what to do." And you're like, "Crap, I forgot to even teach what this game is." So how did, how did testing go? What was the first response like?
Yeah, testing was, uh, has been just like, probably the biggest eye-opener of the, the whole series, of the whole process, was just realizing how essential it is to just get your game in front of people. And like, I don't think we talk about it enough as dev. It's just like, you can't make a game without just constantly throwing it in front of everyone, just seeing what they do. It took me a long time to even show it to a single person. Like, it pro, I think I worked on the game for close to a year before I let anyone play it, which was so dumb. But it was just so hard to like, be like, "Play this game. I know it's terrible. I know, like, just, you're going to like that." It's the whole ego thing. It was just so hard to get over. But as soon as I got those like first play tests in, I'm just like, "Oh wow, I can see. I, I've learned so much just from watching a single person play through the game." It's like, man, that is invaluable. And so it's been so, I hate it. Like, don't get me wrong, like watching other people play my game has just been the most painful thing ever. But it's so valuable that it's like, I've had to push through that. And so, yeah, I, yeah, even that, like, the first, the very first time, just seeing people like, "I don't understand the controls. I don't understand what to do. I thought that was a platform, but oh, it's actually like a bit of background art or something." It's just like, "Okay, time to start again, basically." Because there's, so there's so much. But it's, um, yeah, just like, but this is one, like, other, uh, annoying advantage I do have is just like, I, I say to people, "Oh, you got to playtest your games." People like, with, like, no one wants to play my game. I, I put out a tweet saying, "Can someone play my game?" I get 500 responses. I get too many people. So yeah, I don't, that that's a challenging thing. It's just like, how, what, how can we give that advice to people?
Sure, sure. And I think Discord servers, just hanging out on Discord servers, is the way to go there. Um, but yeah, for me, like, it's like, uh, we did, we did, we did beta testing. And even looking back, it was actually alpha testing. And that's, that's kind of my point here, which is, we did beta testing, and because of beta testing for our game Twisted Tower, we then found out, "Oh, we kind of need to go back to the drawing board with a ton of stuff." So essentially, nope, that's actually alpha testing. It, it's so terrifying to do testing for me because I know, because this, like, my third time going through the beta testing process, I know that at the end of the testing, I will, I will officially have to essentially restart a ton of the game. And it's just terrifying because you don't want to do that. You want to make progress. You want to finish the thing, you know? So it's, uh, it's a lot. You, it's interesting you said about like alpha testing and beta testing, like maybe that's like a more sensible way for. But for me, it was just like, just all the time. Like, there was all the time. It was not like a case of like, "Okay, now I'm going into test mode." It's just like, I make a thing, I throw out to some people, see what they say, and just constantly like, reevaluating.
I think that that's that's definitely the best way to move forward. Do you think that getting a proven prototype is the smartest way forward for indie game developers, or should they just do what they love and make a game that they love and follow their heart and their passion? Or should they prove their prototype?
If you want to just follow your heart and your passion, great. Don't expect to like make a salary doing it or to have anyone buy it. But, um, you know, that, you know, that does come down to like, what are you making this game for? If it's just like a hobby, then, and whatever. But if you are serious about it, then you need to build a prototype for yourself. Make sure, because like our, you know, game's ideas always seem amazing in our brains are like, "Oh yeah, this is going to be fantastic." You start building it, you're like, "Oh, this actually sucks. This this idea doesn't work at all. It's impossible for me to build." So you got to do that. And you just got to start giving it to people. And yeah, that that would be like, if I could go back in time and give myself advice, it'd just be like, "As soon as possible, just start giving this thing to people." And yeah, like, just close that gap between making something, seeing what people think of it, and then having to redo a whole bunch of stuff. Because otherwise, you're just wasting time.
Okay, well, to wrap up this conversation, Mark, I'm going to, I'm going to fire off one final question to you, and it's a challenging one. Okay? So get ready. Okay. What are three game design principles that you learned making this game?
That's a good, that is that is a tough question. So, okay, so one of them, this is like a cheap one, but is just like what I just said. Like, design principle is just like, it doesn't matter what you design or how good you think it is, it just, it's just going to fall apart when you give it to someone else. It is impossible, I think with pretty much any genre, especially puzzle games, because once you've made a puzzle, you know how to solve it, right? So you, it is just impossible for you, the creator, to see your game objectively. But I think that basically any genre, like, you, it's just impossible. Like, like a weird one with my game was, there's like, there'll be like a level where you have these like three rooms you have to do. And I'd get this feedback of these people being like, "Oh, I, I didn't know that I had to like, just leave the magnet behind because then you just go through this hole and there's the exit pipe." And I'm like, "Oh yeah, like I know there's an exit pipe there, but if you haven't played the game, you have no idea." Like, you just have so much knowledge. So yeah, that's design principle one. It's just endless play testing, um, endless play testing, endless play testing, just as much as possible, um, until you launch the game, and then you can just leave it all behind, right? Pretty much. Yeah, yeah. And actually, for me, always just, I, I bitterly resent my games when they're done. I'm just like, "I'm divorced from my game. See you later. Cheers."
And I mean, like, obviously, with that advice, that comes with like a billion caveats of just like, don't just like capitulate to every piece of feedback. And, you know, if some, because I, a thing that was constantly challenging for me was the difficulty of the game. So I would give the game to play testers who are like puzzle game experts, to have like finished Stephen Sausage Roll 100 times, and they're like, "Do this is way too easy." So then I amp up the difficulty. I give it to someone who's never played a game before, they're like, "I have no idea." So it's just like, "Okay, figure out who the game is for." That. Okay. That's design principle two. Is like, you've really got to understand who your game is for. Like, it's, um, it's so, it's, it's so obvious in retrospect, but when you start making a game, you're just like, "I'm just going to make a game for everybody, and everyone's going to love it." And it's just like, "Dude, that's a, that's a, that's never going to work."
So, Mark, is that different than genre, though? Um, understanding genre? Is there a difference between target market and genre?
Yes. Um, genre is part of it, but also like level of difficulty, um, expectations of like previous games people have played. Like, is this a game for someone who has played and loves Factorio, and this is a game for them? Or is this a game for someone who has never played that sort of game before? Is this a game for someone who wants to be punished and wants, you know, to be absolutely hate their life? Or is this a game for someone who's just sitting on the couch after a hard day and they just want something to chill out? Like, you've got to understand who that person is. Figure out like what sort of stuff they're going to appreciate. Um, there, you can find ways to expand your audience in things like optional, you know, um, like a difficulty modes, accessibility options, assist modes, bonus content, all of that sort of stuff. But it's just like, what is the core aspect? What is the core of your game, and who's it for? So that's, that's design principle two. And that took me so long.
Yeah, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just going to say that's why going back to the pizza metaphor, it's one of the reasons why I like it so much because like Little Caesar's Pizza in America, they, they call it cardboard pizza, but it knows because it's so cheap and it's like basically eating cardboard, but the brand knows what it is. They know who they are and who they're for. It's for people who want to buy a pizza for five freaking dollars or 10 bucks, you know? I, I think it's $10 now, but used to be like five bucks. But the point is, is it knew exactly who it was. And you're going to have customers complaining, you're going to have people saying, "This this pizza is disgusting and it's too cheap." But they look at their, they look at their revenue and they, they look at, okay, this is how much we're, um, making, and this is, this is how our sales are doing. And it's confirming their initial goal of reaching a certain target, target market.
Yeah, and the reason I bring that up is because it's so tempting to try and please everybody. And suddenly your game becomes just a watered-down boring game. Mhm. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah, or, and, and it can, and it can, like, just like get you going around in circles or just wrapping you up of just like worrying that it's, you know, different, uh, types of people are just not going to like it. And you just kind of got to accept that. And people generally like self-select themselves into the, like, I don't just go on Steam and just start like randomly downloading some crazy 4X strategy game because I just, that's not like my thing. So, sure, those games are for those people. People generally like find the games that like suit them. And you can describe it in your, your store page and stuff. So just kind of like, be okay that your game is not for everyone. And the sooner you do that, the better. So that's design principle two. I think that's great.
And just for practically for people listening, one of the best ways to test your game is, well, this is what I've learned. I don't know if it's true for you, but what I had to do is I had to ask the testers before I even gave them a Steam key. I was like, "Do you like Bioshock? Do you like this genre? Do you like that genre? What's your favorite thing about Bioshock?" And if they're like, "I love hyper-complicated gunplay and I love difficult gunplay," then I'm like, "You're not getting a Steam key." Because I, Steam, the algorithm on Steam would not drive that person to buy the game. And the game wouldn't, the person wouldn't even buy that game to begin with. So why have them test it, right? So that's a, that's a practical application for testing, for sure.
Yeah, that's like, I, I think that's a very good idea. Um, or even if you don't, you know, maybe you do give them a key, but you understand where their feedback is coming from. You might still be able to get something from them, but you're like, "I'm not going to listen to their feedback about the complexity of the gunplay because it's just probably not going to be relevant to the type of game I'm making." But yeah, that's a good advice. Uh, and I guess like, I don't know if it's really, it's not really a design principle, but it's just like, it's going to affect design of just like, you need to be smart about production with a game. Like, if you are not, think, like, it's so easy to just be like, "I'm going to make this game and I just like, I'll just work on it and it'll eventually be done." And it's just like, that's, it's not going to happen. So you need to be really intentional about like the scope, the, the time you're putting into it, the budget, all of these sorts of things. Um, cuz doesn't matter how great your design is or how fun it is or the game feel, if the game doesn't come out, then it's like, who cares? So that was like the thing I didn't think about at all when I started the game was just like, like the production side of thing. I just, I just started working on it.
And how do you, how do you be smart? What's, what practically, what do they do? You know, that's a tough thing to do.
It's tough, but it's, I'd say things like, um, just deciding like how much content is going to be in your game, like somewhat early. I've just like, for me, I had no idea. I just started working on the game. I'm like, "I don't know, maybe it'll have 700 levels, who knows?" Like, we'll figure that out. Like, it would have been smarter to be like, "This is going to be a game with five worlds with 10, with 10 levels each." And now I kind of know where I'm going and I can know how much time to spend on each of those things. That would be sensible. Or just being like, "I, I want to make this game in a certain amount of time." Though I do appreciate that like knowing how to budget time and knowing how long things take, you can't really get that until you do it once. So that kind of goes back to the idea of just get that first game done. You will learn, y, so much about production.
Bro, thank you so much. This was such a good conversation. Um, I learned a ton from you and I, I've been learning a ton from you. And that's something that's really cool about and that you should be proud of is there are millions of people who, you're in their brain, or yeah, you're in their brain. You're in my brain and you don't even know it. And so, and that's a good thing. I've learned so much from you, man. So I, I will take that as a good thing.
Sure. All right. Uh, link, link for Mind Over Magnet is in the description. Also to your channel. Is there anything else you wanted to leave the audience with before we wrap up here?
It's, uh, I would say this, it is coming very close to the end of the year, so we're getting into the New Year's resolutions. And there's probably going to be a lot of people on your on your channel who watch you and they like, "I'd love to make a game one day." And it's like, this is this is your year. I'm telling this to you people. This is your year. Like, get started. Download Unity, download Godot, download whatever. Start watching some tutorials. If I can do it, you can do it.
So exactly. This is it for it. I noticed you didn't say Unreal there. So you can do Unreal. You can do GameMaker. You can do Construct 3.
Okay, okay. I wasn't sure if you were purposely excluding Unreal.
I mean, for your first game, maybe don't use Unreal for your first game.
All right, Mark, thanks so much, man. Thank you. This has been so much fun.
Yep. Cheers. By the way, if you're like me and you always dreamt of making an indie game as a full-time job, I have a free webinar below that goes into exactly how to make six figures with just a demo. I was just like you for years. I thought I had to make a game in its entirety before getting a paycheck, but there's actually three ways to make six figures before even finishing your game. I've done this multiple times. So check it out below if you do want to go full-time indie. And thanks for watching.