Transcription
Welcome to the Modern Arizona podcast. Today's podcast is a little different. It's from one of our live events with the Modern Divorce Navigator, designed to make divorce less stressful and more manageable. If you enjoy the podcast, don't forget to subscribe. And if you're curious about the Navigator, check out the link in the description. We would love to have you join us.
Now, let's dive back into the episode. Hello. Welcome to the modern divorce support group and to a live with Dr. Lisa Fontes, expert, expert witness, professor, researcher on coercive control and domestic violence. Dr. Fontes, welcome to the show.
Thank you. I'm very happy to be here, Billy.
Yeah, I'm very happy to have you here. So, I um have used Dr. Fontes in my work as a lawyer when I was representing a victim of domestic violence. found having an expert was just so helpful and I learned a lot about domestic violence and I bet there's a lot of people in our group who would benefit from hearing about some of the research and some of the work that you've done.
Okay. Well, ask me questions. I'm really happy to talk about it unless you want me to just start talking.
Well, I mean t tell people your background, how you got into this, how long you've been doing this.
Absolutely. So, um, 31 years ago, I graduated with my doctorate in counseling psychology, and I specialized in cultural issues in child abuse and, uh, gender-based violence, and I I've done that for more than 30 years. I'm very uh have been very active in child abuse organizations. About 10 years ago, I made a pivot more fully into the field of coercive control and domestic violence and I wrote the second book that was ever written on coercive control called invisible chains overcoming coercive control in your intimate relationship. I think it was a little ahead of its time um because people in the US have only been talking about coercive control in the last few years. Uh but I have been working increasingly as an expert in legal cases, family, criminal and immigration cases where there is coercive control, child abuse, domestic violence, post-sepparation abuse and all that related stuff.
Yeah, that is so interesting because in immigration there's specific protections if you are a victim. Um, but coercive control, people who are victims of coercive control don't always even know that they're victims.
That's exactly right. So, coercive control is a multi-pronged strategy which one person uses to dominate their intimate partner. And some of the tactics of coercive control are isolation, intimidation, uh, physical abuse, sexual abuse, verbal abuse, legal abuse. Um, I'm sure I'm forgetting some. Um, controlling through the children, micromanagement. Not all of those are always present, but there's more than one. And a lot of times people, if there isn't physical abuse or if the physical abuse is subtle, like grabbing, like shaking, like painful sex. There's well there's nothing actually subtle about that for somebody who's being victimized but it's not typically the kind of thing that people would call the police for let's say then people don't understand what's going on necessarily in their relationship they don't have a name for it. So the discovery of the term course of control can really connect the dots and help people understand what they're going through or what they went through.
I'm not exactly sure how to put this uh but in traditional marriage, patriarchal marriage, religious marriage, there may be a belief in a culture that a woman should be subject to the control of her spouse. Where do you separate the line between religious beliefs and culture and coercive control and abuse?
In course of control, there's a sense of threat. M so the the person usually the woman will do what if we're talking about heterosexual marriages but course of control does exist in samesex marriages as well. I like to say that people of any gender can be victims or victimizers. Um there in course of control there's a sense of threat. If I don't do what my partner wants of me or what my spouse wants of me bad things are going to happen. Now, that's more than culture, but certainly cultural beliefs can buttress coercive control. Cultural beliefs can make people look the other way when somebody has really their autonomy completely taken from them. And I guess for me, it's really I feel like it's not really up to me to say about any given person, although I'm happy to engage in that conversation, you know, is where is the line between culture, religious beliefs, and abuse? it's up for how that person feels and um sometimes people come to the US with very traditional beliefs and patriarchal beliefs and then while they're here the woman begins to get a little bit more freedom begins to get some independence and and wants a different kind of life and people grow up in traditional churches and religious institutions and wants something different. So even if something is partly based on what h what the culture or the religion says, it could still be coercive control. Mhm. Okay.
So let's talk about family law. In the family law cases where you serve as an expert, what are the types of cases that people bring you in to testify about?
There's everything under the sun. A lot of custody cases. Um sometimes uh for protective orders, sometimes um for uh in family law cases um you know at every possible stage they they might bring me in. They bring me in for modifications. Sometimes victims of domestic violence are told by their lawyers that don't bring it up and they don't and during the initial trial and then 2 3 years later they realize that their ex is engaging in all kinds of post-sepparation abuse. Maybe they change lawyers and the new lawyer says yes that stuff is relevant and then it's challenging to bring it before a judge. If somebody has absolutely amazing evidence and a great lawyer, they may not need me, especially if the other side doesn't have so great a lawyer, but a lot of times the evidence is not necessarily that clear or it can be misinterpreted. So, we know a lot of abusers now are doing what we call Darvo, deny, attack, reverse, victim, and offender. So abusers are saying, "No, she's really the problem." Or, "We're both the problem. We just have fights." And so when that's the case, then I sometimes am brought in to clarify, how do you know who is actually the abuser? Is and is there such thing as mutual domestic violence? The answer to that is no.
That is so hard. I had a consultation earlier in the week where someone got an order of protection. and she was attacked. In the midst of this attack, the only thing she could do was grab him by the privates and he made a police report and now she's at risk of being charged because he went to the police first and this is not a unique story. This happens all the time. So, if somebody finds themselves in that situation, law enforcement seems to have no idea what to do with it. Family court is very confused about what to do with it. When you come in, you're an expert witness. So, you're testifying for one side. You're hired by that side. How do you get the judge to understand the evidence?
Well, I work in cases in a couple of different ways. Several different ways, but two basic ways. One is that I review all the evidence. I evaluate the party who hired me. I offer to evaluate the other party. Sometimes they say yes, sometimes they say no. I I might have 150 pieces of evidence ranging from, you know, maybe an affidavit from a neighbor or the or the teacher to the pediatric record about who brought the children to to do ped pediatric visits, um, photographs, recordings and so on. Um, and um, I review all the evidence and then I testify about the case specifically. And that honestly takes a lot of time and it's it's hard. It's really hard. I mean emotionally for me it's also hard. I usually connect a lot with the person um who's been victimized. Sometimes I discover that things are not as they seem and then I I don't stay with the case. Um I also am hired uh by one of the parties to um speak as an expert witness without knowledge of the case. And in that case, I go in and I have worked with the attorney to figure out what questions to ask me and I will answer questions like, "Is there such thing as mutual domestic violence?" Or, um, "Why might um a victim of domestic violence lie to a hospital emergency department and say and basically minimize the domestic violence or deny it?" Um, the other thing I'm hired to do, um, is sometimes to rebut other experts reports. So, like a guardian edit or a a parental responsibilities evaluation, I might be brought in to review that and either write a report or just testify about that report. And I only take cases I believe in, I should say. I only work with people who I believe.
Well, there's plenty of work, right? Lots and lots of work. Yeah. But, okay. Okay. So, I want to go back to what you said because um when if you're evaluating the entirety of the couple, it seems like things can become clear. You're not looking at what happened on any given day. You are looking at the entirety of their relationship and all of the context clues, which then can be applied to what happened on that day and give you a much clearer answer. But let's say you're doing the second thing where you're testifying not about this specific people and people are claiming mutual abuse. What do you how do you explain this and how do we determine who's at fault?
So, if I don't have uh knowledge of the case, then I would talk about how there is no such thing as mutual domestic violence. Sometimes a couple will, you know, wrestle, let's say. There might be a couple where one, you know, gets mad and like pushes the other, let's say, but it's not a true situation of domination. But domestic violence is the domination. It's not the punch. And unfortunately, a lot of times the law, you know, until recently has considered that domestic violence is like a bar fight. The problem is the punch. But it's usually not about the incident. And anybody who's been in a domestic violence or coercive control relationship will tell you that it's the the physical assaults were probably not the worst part. it was the everyday domination. The other thing is that most of the physical assaults, one research said 95% are pretty mild. So, it's the grabbing, it's the shaking, it's the painful sex, it's the pushing out of the way, it's throwing cup of coffee at at the partner. These kinds of things that are considered mild but are happening daily, weekly, all the time. Um, and yet they may not rise to the level of somebody being wanting to call the police or wanting to consider themselves a victim of domestic violence.
What are some questions that we would ask to determine if you have a controlling dominating relationship?
Um, so you're speaking like what a question an attorney might ask the the client. Is that what you're asking me?
Sure. Or people can ask themselves like how do I know if I'm in a relationship where I'm being controlled or or if I could be asking somebody like I want to determine if they are being controlled or if they're just breaking up.
Right. Great. So um did you do things or do you do things that you don't want to do because of a sense of threat so that you will get in trouble or bad things will happen if you don't do them. So that I mean, you know, a couple can be disagreeing um or you know, sometimes we're in a relationship and I really don't feel like cleaning the bathroom floor, but I'm going to do it, you know, but that's very different from I have to do it right now because if I don't do it right now, you know, I'll be a very serious situation. So it's that sense of threat. I would say it's uh a very common thing is isolation and self-restriction. So, the person, the victimized person might even go to work. They may not be totally isolated? Um, but they know that they better get home from work right away. They no longer call their friends. They no longer spend a lot of time with their family because it's always such a hassle when they try to. Their abusive partner gets drunk when their friends come over, so they don't invite their friends over. or if they go out with their friends, their abusive partner is texting them the whole time and so they can't enjoy themselves. Um, their abusive partner has told them negative things about their family, so they no longer see their family. So sometimes it feels self-imposed, um, that isolation, but it's actually the other. Um, and then I'll, you know, I won't say a lot about it unless you ask me to, but typically there's a lot of sexual coercion and, um, yeah, sexual pressure and coercion.
So, you gave a lot of different examples of different behaviors. Is there a certain number of those behaviors that have to be present or factors? Like you you said isolation, controlling, physical violence, sexual violence. I'm not sure what else. Legal abuse, intimidation.
Yeah. More than one. Certainly more than one. Because if somebody is being verbally abused, they're being criticized. They're being called names. They could be called names all day, every day. But if that's the only thing that's happening, that's verbal abuse. That's not course control. But typically, where somebody is verbally abusing their partner, they're also controlling them in other ways. And a lot of people will use the term emotional abuse or psychological abuse because they're not familiar with course of control. But if you start asking them, well, was it just verbal? Did you have full access to your money? Did you were you on an allowance? Did you were you um a full owner of the credit card or just an authorized user? Um, you certainly start seeing other ways in which this person was being controlled.
You have testified, you told me, in 17 different states, correct?
17 different jurisdictions, all with different laws. Actually, more. Well, sorry, more than 17 jurisdictions because. Well, I. No, let's see. I've I've uh in some states I've testified in multiple courts. Sure. So, yeah.
Are you finding that different states with different laws treat the same facts differently?
Yes. And judges treat the facts differently. So, if you have the bad luck to get judge A instead of Judge B, your case is going to come out really differently. But also, if you live in Arizona versus Massachusetts, you're going to have a different outcome. And on the most basic level, it's time. Um, in California, they may have a 6 day or a 10 day or a 12 day divorce trial. My understanding is that in Arizona, you're talking hours. Right. Right. Okay. So when you have more time, you're getting a different result. Yes. Very interesting.
I have a question from someone in the group. For coercive control, is there a time frame for charges?
So in there are seven states right now that have laws against coercive control. Hawaii, California, Connecticut, Colorado, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Washington State. Okay. got this. All right. A lot of laws are proposed on the books elsewhere. Only in Hawaii is a criminal charge. It's a it's a um misdemeanor um in Hawaii. In the other states, it's just a factor to be considered in family matters. So, it affects um protective orders and it affects um child custody. Okay. Okay. So in states with laws on course of control they usually say um that child that course of control is considered domestic abuse or domestic violence and therefore needs the the safety of the children needs to be conser considered has to be assessed and so on. So your uh listener talked about charges of course of control. The issue is that mostly there aren't charges. Mhm. Um, and if you're filing for a modification and the divorce happened four years ago, you will have many judges who say, I don't care what happened. I only want to hear what happened in the last four years. Right? And um, so then the question becomes, is there abuse in the post-sepparation period? Abuse in the post-sepparation period is coercive control. It's coercive control in the post-sepparation period. If you live in a state with laws on course of control, that's going to help you. If you live a state in a state that doesn't, you know, your expert can still try to make the case that course of control is domestic violence because that is what experts are considering it now. Um, but um, it may work, it may be more favorable to talk about what's happening to the children. Yes. Um, if you're looking for a modification, the judge is interested in the children. How are they doing? Mhm. Um, and uh, the kinds of coursively controlling behavior that an abuser does with their partner, they typically will do eventually with their children as well. So um sometimes people really want they want to have their quote unquote day in court. You know, at the time that they were getting divorced, they weren't ready to talk about the domestic abuse. They didn't understand it. And only after separation have they begun to understand what they've been through. and they really would like to talk about it in court. It might be that they could file um uh what's that called, Billy? Um charges of tort. It might be that they could file a tort. Oh, sure. We're not going to Yeah. private action. Um, but it would have to be a cause of action. So, if it's only mentioned in the law as a best interest factor, then you're going to have a hard time even in civil court suing for damages. Um, I don't know about that. That's a legal question and I can't say but sometimes there's actually frank domestic violence as well or if you can you know if you can prove that somebody lost their home lost their profession um there's a lot of harms from course of control definitely. So there may be a tor lost access to their children or for a time maybe it's negligence or I don't know I mean anyway we're just we're just brainstorming legally.
Okay I have another question here. What behavior does a coercive person exhibit?
Um, well, a whole range of behaviors. Um, so let me talk about at the beginning of a relationship and then we'll move on. Okay, does that make sense? So, typically coercive control relationships start very fast. Okay, within a, you know, a week, two weeks, 3 weeks, uh, the abuser has said, "I love you. Will you move in with me? put me on your bank account. Usually there's a push for sex really early and any number of uh women and also men who've been coarsely controlled by men in this case um will describe that they had sex much earlier in this relationship than they usually do. Um that's a very typical and that their boundaries were pushed sexually and their boundaries were pushed in other ways. I want all your time. And at the beginning, it can feel like love. But the person is overwhelmed and they don't they don't get a chance to put the brakes on. And if they try to put the brakes on, the person who becomes the abuser will will sort of push forward anyway, will push through them. In fact, they may say, "I love you," when they don't mean it in the beginning because the abuser said it to them and they're nice. So, they feel like they should be saying it best, right? So, they don't have a chance. It goes so fast. They're so head over heels. they don't get a chance to evaluate the situation. Um, I think that one of the big um, one of the big red flags is an effort to isolate. So, and that can look like love. I think of it as like a a a candy wrapper around a poison pill or something. So, you know, darling, let's put away our phones when we get home and so you won't be talking to anybody. Um, so we'll have our we'll be just for ourselves. Let's not go spend the holidays with your family. Let's just be alone together. Um, forget your Wednesday night spinning class. I want you home with me. Um, uh, I don't want you I'll pick you up every day at work and I'll drop you off. I'll go with you to the supermarket. And in the beginning when there's a lot of feelings of love, that all can feel great. Like somebody can feel very romantic about it. Um, but over time they realize that their life has been taken over by this other person. Yeah, you'll see somebody who's coercively controlling typically will have one all their relationships will be characterized by this. Oh, okay. So, that that is a trait that they bring with them. Okay. Maybe when they were younger, they were physically violent and then they learned they could get in trouble for that. So, then they become sort of more clever and they don't use physical violence. They just use all these other ways to control a person. Okay.
So, if if uh somebody is dating somebody and they're not sure, they want to ask them about their exes. What would be some telltale signs? Like, what would the coercive controllers say about their exes?
That's such a great thing to do. Um the ex was crazy, the ex was violent. Um it's all on the ex. The ex was this big problem and they will often make the new girlfriend, let's say, feel sorry for them because they were so mistreated by the ex. Okay. So, they were perfect in the relationship and she was psycho, right? Or she betrayed me and that's why I'm going to keep really close track of what you were doing, right? Because my ex betrayed me, right? Oo. Okay, good. I like that. Um, I want there there's another question here, but I want to ask you about modifications. If if if we're limited to addressing what has happened since the divorce and somebody wants a modification and they they've got a coercive controlling um you have to leave, I'm on a life, children are home. Um, close the door. Thank you. uh you're you you need to talk about coercive control that's happening either to you or to your children post divorce. How might that look?
Um, well, it might look like a collection of messages. Um, hopefully using a parenting app rather than text and emails and you know instant messenger or whatever like consolidate the messages and um might see threads of messages where the um coercively controlling person is um not responsive distorting what they're saying um making unilateral decisions Um, I mean it's they could be openly degrading and nasty and so on, but if they're smart, they're not doing that because they know that can be brought into court. So those messages could be evidence. Um, a lot of times the manipulations with the children are are just, you know, heartbreaking honestly. Like, you know, let's say they share custody. Now, nobody should have to share custody with somebody who's determined to dominate them no matter what. That's not shared custody. That's being forced to give in until you can't take it anymore and then your lawyer files a contempt. Um, but that should not be the case. Um, do you mean do you mean legal decisionmaking or do you mean parenting time?
Yes, legal decision-making. Thank you for that that clarification. All right. So nobody should have to share legal legal custody where they have to make decisions together if somebody has wanted to control their entire marriage, right? I mean that will just unfortunately continue into the post-sepparation period. So every decision about orthodontics and camp and school and pediatrician and the friends they're allowed to play with, etc., etc. Every one of those will be a cause to return to court because the person who's dominating if they don't get their way will either take them to court or we'll just do what they want anyway. So, you know, we'll move the kids schools even though they're doing well. Won't allow them to see a therapist. That's pretty typical that the abuser will not want the children to see a therapist.
Do they engage in alienation?
So alienation is complicated word right now and we could definitely meet again and have a whole conversation about that. Um, but very typically a domestic abuser will try to turn the children against the other parent. So if the domestic abuser is a man, they'll try to turn the kids against the mom. Your mom's stupid. Nobody likes her. She's a whiner. You know, whatever it is at the same time as the abuser is claiming that the victim is turning the kids against him. Now, of course, either party can behave reprehensibly, 100%. Yeah. Um, but what I see sometimes often is that children are afraid of the abuser. They're afraid because they've seen the abuser be out of control, be drunk, yelling, slamming things, throwing things. Um, maybe the abuser was even physically violent with them. Um, and they're afraid. They're genuinely afraid of the abuser, but the abuser accuses their ex of parental alienation. So, these are tough times at family court, Billy. I don't have to tell you that. Tough times. They're tough times.
Uh, in general, does coercive control look different? And we're talking heterosexual couples coming from a female versus coming from a male.
Yes. Where the woman is coercively controlling and that is less common. It is. I've never seen a situation and from speaking with colleagues, looking at the research, it's rare that the man will feel physical fear of the woman. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's rare. And also, sexual assault is much less common. So, um, sexual coercion, sexual humiliation. Um, and those are two really important factors. um coarsely controlled men are generally more able to leave um the relationship, but they could be manipulated stuff around the children and so on. I mean, I I I have spoken with some men who I really feel for um if they they're not they're not afraid physically, what is the source of most of that fear?
Generally, I don't know that the word is fear actually. Okay. Okay. But um the abuser like say let's say the female abuser has access to something and can use that to manipulate their ex or their partner. So it could be access to money, could be access to citizenship. Um could be, you know, the threat. I mean either side can make the threat. If you don't do X, you'll never see your kids again. Um, so it's it's tough. Yeah.
Couple other audience questions. I'm curious how often you see favor to your client after your testimony or how often or a percentage that it is beneficial to bring in an expert witness like yourself.
Right? I mean, I would have to do the math on that and um I have only seen it to be helpful. I've never seen it to be harmful. Um, there are occasions when we don't know. I mean, how do we know? I mean, I get called in because the judge is bad or the judge is shouldn't say bad. The judge likes to rule in favor of one party rather than the other party. So, I'm brought in to see if I could help them understand this situation. Um, generally the people I have worked with are satisfied, happy, glad they brought me in. But I wish I could say it was 100% wins. It's not. It's it's it's not I mean that's not the climate we're in. No. No.
Now speaking with regard to Arizona, Arizona has a massive presumption of joint legal decision-making and 50/50 parenting time wherever possible. We are a culture that where judges hold this belief and unless we can prove significant physical violence, that's usually what we're stuck with. So if somebody's in a situation, one of the things I heard you say is get a communication parenting app that that is very important. What other tips or practical advice do you have for people who might be stuck in that situation?
Okay. And let me say if you get an app, don't get um an app that changes what the abuser says. For instance, civil communicator will modify what you say so it sounds civil, which means that the abuser could write these abusive texts. The app will change them and therefore it's not available to the courts. Brilliant. Get an app that really communicates what's going on. Um, I recommend where there's an issue of alcohol, um, I recommend the PET test. that's p rather than soberlink or something that's a daily breathalyzer. Um, because the path test will uh identify the level of use of alcohol over about a 4 to 6 week period. Wow. So, if you can get a judge to order, I want you to do a PET test within 48 hours, you're going to get a realistic picture of drinking over the last month. It's a great idea. Um, or a G, a guardian, I'd light them or, you know, parental responsibilities evaluator could order the same thing. There's a lot of fudging that seems to be done on the other the other um ways. What what else to do? I think that some people like the gray rock or yellow rock technique of communicating. So, you make sure that what you're saying back is not going to create a problem for you. Um, you could decide to review the communications once a day at, you know, maybe 9 in the morning and unless it's an emergency, um, you know, I will not be reviewing all the time. Um, some people I've known people who were so triggered by the messages that they got that they actually had somebody else review them for them. But, um, exchanges should either happen at the school or in a public place. Mhm. Um, children generally respond better to fewer transitions. Mhm. Now, it's really hard, especially if your child is really young, to send them to the home of somebody who you consider abusive. And that's really hard. I'm never going to deny that. Um, and when the children are really young, the more frequent transitions might make more sense, but for most kids, they prefer fewer transitions. Okay. So, you prefer the week on week off over like the 225. Um, I do, but I'm not going to impose, you know, what I have found to be true on on anybody else. But especially, you know, kids usually prefer it. They find the transitions very, very troubling. Yeah, I experienced that as well. Like when my ex and I first separated, we did the 5225 during the school year. My youngest was young and I didn't want to go very long without seeing any of them. But we did a week on week off in the summer and the kids after one summer were like this is better. So I found that as well and it's the reason I say that is because if you haven't done this, if you haven't gone through this and you're deciding sometimes it's nice to have information from other families about what worked and what didn't. And it's excruciatingly painful if you've been the primary parent with your child all the time and then there's a divorce or separation and all of a sudden you're spending half the time without your child. That's excruciating. I mean, there's no denial of that. Um, but thinking of what's best for the kids, you know, once they're five or six or so, it's usually longer stretches of time.
Last question. What can parents do to help arm their children if their other parent has these coercive controlling behaviors?
So, um I'm going to recommend first of all that people look up Dr. Christine Coachiola who runs a protective parenting program. I know you had her on your show, Billy. and um she has wonderful um suggestions, YouTubetubes, reals and so on um about this um that's really her area of specialty. Um, but I think important to help children identify their feelings. So understand like get vocabulary for their feelings, you know, beyond sad, mad, and happy. You know, irritated, you know, you're looking kind of irritated. So they can identify what they're feeling. I think it can be very helpful to have them do some art thing, art class in school somewhere, something that they can express themselves. Mhm. Um, it's I know there's that tricky line between um you can't badmouth your ex and you shouldn't badmouth a child's other partner, but I think you can help them with what the other person might say. So for instance, if the other person says, let's say you're the mom and the other person says, your mom doesn't love you, then and your kid says, you know, dad says you don't love me. You can say, well, how do you know if somebody loves you? How could you tell? And and help them to trust their own feelings, their own instincts. Help them to know what they want, what they like, what they don't want, what they don't like. Um, teach them to manage their emotions, mindfulness or whatever it takes so they can manage their their emotions. That's just the most horrible thing you could ever say to a child that their other parent doesn't love them. Like that just makes me feel rage. Like that would be an awful thing to say.
All right, I promise this is the last question. This is from the audience and it says, "What testing is there for excessive cannabis usage in a state where usage is legal?"
I am not the right person to ask that, but Billy, I can give you the name of a of a nurse who could you could probably interview on your show if you wanted to.
Yes, I would love that very much. Okay, Dr. It was so good to see you. Thank you so much for coming.
Good to see you. Take care. Wish the best to everyone. Thank you. Yes. Talk to you soon. Bye. Bye. Bye.
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