Transcription
Growing up, I didn't have the easiest childhood, really. I knew that as soon as I finished high school, I needed to get out of the house. She pretty much kicked us out.
Meet Camden. He grew up in South Africa with his grandma and then he moved to the UK with nothing but a backpack, no money, and was living in hostels in the UK. I haven't had any helpful financial support, like from 18 to where I am now.
He then worked on cruise ships, and he met a lot of rich people, and he realized that they all have one thing in common: they invest in property. I worked for like some of the richest people in the world, most influential. You've seen all the people on the other side, the rich people, and it's like, man, what am I doing wrong? They don't seem to work harder than me, but they're certainly making a lot more money.
So Camden set out on a mission to learn everything he could about property investment. Your first deal, I've gone over the numbers of it, and it was a bit of a disaster. And we joked about bringing you on "Losers on a Tuesday." Uh, this is "Winners on a Wednesday." You have turned it all around, but tell us what happened and what went wrong.
Um, so, and right now, he's completely financially free, controlling over £1 million worth of property. And in this discussion, you're going to learn exactly what he learned, and now he's become financially free so that you can do the same thing too, even if you're starting from zero. Stay tuned.
Camden, welcome to Winners on a Wednesday. Thank you very much. So you've got an interesting background because you used to work in yachts and you're known now as "Sailor to States." Transitioned into property, are doing really well. I know they've had some struggles and challenges, but just give us a little bit of insight into your background and what is it that you were doing before property?
Thank you. Uh, yeah, so I worked on private luxury yachts for six years, um, which is amazing. I saw a lot of the world. I worked for like some of the richest people in the world, most influential. Um, so, yeah, it's just been amazing. One thing that is interesting is like all of the people I worked for and the people, the guests that chartered the yachts, they're all invested in property in some form or another. Yeah.
So, yeah, that was kind of like a second thing for me to just focus on. A lot of people, even, even me, when I was working on a building site, plastering, and you see all the people on the other side, the rich people, and it's like, man, what am I doing wrong? They don't seem to work harder than me, but they're certainly making a lot more money. That's exactly it. Yeah. What were we doing then?
On, on, on the, on the, so yeah, I started at like the bottom as a deckhand. Um, so you're just literally cleaning the exterior of the, of the boat, keeping it like, you know, immaculate. Luxury yachts, like 300 million plus, um, dollars or pounds or whatever. So, yeah, like 130 meters, some of them. Um, but yeah, I started on smaller boats, started sailing as well. Um, did a few like regattas, some, some sailing races on like old classic yachts. Um, and then I just slowly, you know, did some more courses, I suppose, like qualifications. Yeah. And then worked my way up into like a lead tender driver for one of like the largest fleets in the Middle East. So I was just driving the guests around on, you know, these small, small expensive boats. And then I was also bosun on one of the boats in America, so I had like a team below me, and we just looked after the exterior and like the guest experiences.
Did you ever ask them? Did you ever like, you know, when people you see on the TikTok videos, "What do you do for a living? How did you make your money?" Or we always Googled it. I knew what why, but yeah, like the bosses we worked for, some of them were very transparent. So like, yeah, like we knew what they were doing. Yeah. I sometimes feel like some people might Google me, like, "Who's this brummy guy on these expensive holidays and trips and yachts?" And Google Russell. I saw Russell in Dubai recently. Oh, really? Yeah. No, no, on his Insta. Sorry. Okay, okay. And you travel a lot as well? I mean, you just got back from Thailand. Thailand was course for New Year's as well. Did a snowboarding there. Never even knew you could snowboard there. Um, yeah, but I was away in Thailand for 10 days. I got back, yeah, recently, which is amazing.
So you, you realized you wanted to get into property because you saw all these wealthy people doing property. So what happened? Like, how did, how did it start and what was your first? It all started, yeah. I think like obviously YouTube helped a lot. Um, as soon as I thought about property, I just typed in "UK property" on YouTube. You popped up. Um, I just started devouring that useful information. It got me really excited. This was while I was on the boat. And then I thought, um, you know, let me jump on a crash course. I think it was the one in Liverpool, to be honest. Maybe one of those, quite a couple of years ago, a few years ago. Um, and I was, I was so hooked. It was just the energy, everything in the room was amazing. And like the, the ideas and the, the strategies just clicked to my head. Yeah. Um, and at that stage, I went back home to my girlfriend and I just was like, "Babe, like, this is, we, we need to do this. We need to do this." Um, and she wasn't sold on it at all. So then we were in M in Liverpool again, actually, when I was purchasing my first property. And I brought her and a friend along to the crash course in Manchester. And then after she saw it, she was like, "Okay, this is it. Like, go for it." Yeah. So the crash course is definitely where it started for me.
Now, your first deal, I've gone over the numbers of it. You brought it to me. I remember the first time you brought it to me. I think we were actually at one of my hotels when you, when you gave me the full details and the breakdown. And, and it was a bit of a disaster. And we joked about bringing you on "Losers on a Tuesday." Uh, this is "Winners on a Wednesday" because you have turned it all around. But tell us what happened and what went wrong with that first purchase that you did, because it was an absolute disaster, wasn't it?
It was, uh, definitely a huge learning curve for me. Um, so, yeah, I firstly, I went into it with like no prior experience. And like, I didn't know how to calculate the end value, the GDV, the refurb costs, which. Crash course did you go to? Did you go to the rent-to-rent crash course? Um, no, so I think it was just like the general crash. Yeah, to be honest, I can't really remember. You just loved it. I got excited. But so I've always wanted to, like, everyone knows property is a good investment. So we just went to Liverpool, like looked for like a beaten-up property. Yeah. Found one. Just, I rushed into it. I think my ego was like, "I want a property before I was 25 years old or something." But yeah, I rushed into it. I didn't really know the numbers too well. Uh, yeah, only got like one refurb quote, and I just went with that. But, um, it had Japanese knotweed. It had, um, the refurb quote was literally, I think it was like £15,000. It went up to £30,000.
So, Japanese knotweed. Did you know how Japanese knotweed? No, no. So it didn't even come up on the structural survey. But there it was, growing over the next neighbor's fence. And I was, my mom and I were like, "Oh, this is a beautiful plant. Like, you know, this is the best feature." And just for anyone who doesn't know, what is Japanese knotweed? So, yeah, it's an, like an invasive plant, and its roots just go down into anything, and they break the structure, they crack bricks. Like, it actually broke the brick wall, damaged like my external rendering. I want, you know, it came from Japan, hence why it's called. And, and the English brought it in because it looks pretty. And I thought, "Oh, this is a nice plant." And now we, we wish we hadn't. Because if you've got Japanese knotweed, not just in your back garden, but even in next door's, it, the valuers, as you know now, will take a very dim view on that. And sometimes they'll refuse to, well, not sometimes, they will usually refuse to lend on the property at all until you get it sorted out.
So, did you manage to get the Japanese sorted? Or so, actually, the, yes, we did. The next neighbor, it's actually a council house next door, and they've got links in the council, so they had it like professionally removed by the council. Yeah. So, yeah, that's all sorted now. Thank. How much did it cost? Rather than on me? It is them actually. So, yeah, because it is like this much more, sorry, on their side of. So that's something to check then. So when you're buying a property, it's not just about your property, it's about next door. And if next door's got Japanese knotweed, for example, that can, that can, um, make the structure of your property in jeopardy, potentially. Yeah. So, so some big learning curves, definitely. Again, and final thing with that property, like after the refurb, after it all been sorted, there was a big storm, and like the roof, like some slates got thrown off, hit a car next door. Like, rising damp, rising damp. So at the time, I, I just decided to raise in finance. By then, I was on the academy. I had a lot more knowledge. Raised like £13,000 in finance from one of my international investors. Um, and yeah, got that all sorted. And now it's running as an SL, a very successful one. Is it now a successful prop? Now, are you glad? Over a grand profit every month, and I've got a six-month booking in there right now. So respect, man. Respect.
So you managed to turn. I think that's the thing, isn't it? He did the crash course, learned about property, went ahead and did it, but maybe a little bit without. I mean, you didn't have any, uh, advanced training, you didn't have any mentoring, you didn't quite know what you were doing, but you knew enough. But it's, it's, it's turned around and you, you've worked hard on it and you managed to turn it around. So what happened then after that? Did that put you off? Or what, what did your partner think? Was she kind of saying like, "I told you so"? Was she scared? First?
Yeah, no, so she's very supportive. Um, again, like we knew that we were supposed to be diving into something new, so, you know, you're not going to get it right the first time. But, yeah, after that, I, I was like, "Let me try different strategies." Then I signed up to the rent-to-rent advanced training. Started doing that, and it took me six months to actually find my first property. Long time. A lot more, a lot more than I expected. But I realized that I didn't have the support like, and like, uh, you know, the accountability that I do now once joining the academy. Um, so I think, yeah, after that, I was very excited. Went on overseas for like a four-month job on a yacht. That was my final yacht job. Got back and I was like, "No, I just need to join the academy now." Got all in. And since then, it's just.
For just for anyone that's wondering, what's the difference then between the courses? So we run, obviously, the crash course, we run the training, we have courses. What's the difference between that and the academy?
So, yeah, so the online, sorry, the, the advanced training, so it's just like one section. So, you know, rent-to-rent, rent-to-HMO, rent-to-social, uh, sorry, service accommodation. So you learn all about that, but you don't have the, the inner circle meetups, you don't have the, you know, mentoring calls, which for me is just the most magical thing ever. Yeah. You don't have that community because you're kind of isolated. It's online. Yeah. It's amazing. It's very good to do so. Get the information. £999, £995, so it's a £1,000 program. Get all the information. But the academy is where you get hand-holding support, community, where we look at your deals, come out with you, and it's kind of that mountaintop experience.
What made you make that decision in the end on the academy then? How did you justify? Because it's a big investment. How did you justify the investment?
So I think just seeing people that have joined the academy already, really, um, you know, at a similar time to when I bought this course, they were like doing such big things, and they were where I wanted to be. Yeah. Um, and yeah, like this, the system worked. You know, I was earning decent profit from that one property. You know, I trusted you. I trusted the system. You know, all the training, it really did work. So it was quite easy for me to justify. I think the return on investment, if you look at the, the price of the academy to what you receive in the long run, it's just, you know, shadows, shadows.
Well, I guess as I often say, property is a great investment. All the rich people invest in property, but you can't be investing in yourself. And if you invest a little bit in yourself first, then when you do invest in property, it's going to be way more successful in the long run.
So what happened then? Then, so you're on the academy, you've got your one BR, that was a nightmare at first, but you flipped it around and you've turned it into a service accommodation, it's making a grand a month. You're now on the academy. Are you now no longer in work? Have you quit your job at this point?
Yes, so I went full-time. Yeah, yeah. I went, I went full-time in property. When was it? January, February, March, April. So when I joined the academy in April.
Did that, was that an easy decision or was that a tough decision to make?
So for me, it was quite easy. I was like, "I, I want to do this. I want to do this." Thankfully, I've got a beautiful girlfriend at home, Georgina, and she, you know, she was like, "Okay, cool. Like, I'll cover the rents and everything. You put all of your time and money." So she continued working. So she's like, "Don't worry, babe, I got you." She's got my back. I'll make, I'll pay the bills. You go get rich. Exactly. So, yeah, we're a great team. So, um, that's really helpful.
And one of the things I've already noticed about your kind of story that you've said just so far is the ability to be able to take big educated risks. So buying that first property, that was a risk, and it went wrong, did. But so was quitting your job. So was joining the academy. All these things that you've done have been big, ballsy risks that most people would never make. Most people would be like, "Oh, I'm not buying a house that's run down, it's got all these problems," or "I'm not quitting my safe job." "I'm not joining the academy." I'm because I want to stay safe. But you really made yourself vulnerable and exposed. And that, I think, that's a pattern what I can certainly see with yourself. Where does that courage come from? And, and was it not really scary, or do you just not care?
So, yeah, like growing up, I had, didn't have the most, the easiest childhood, really. Um, I stayed with my grand. I got like separated from my parents for some personal reasons. Uh, I like finished high school with my grand. And my grand said, she's like, uh, she had her own businesses and she made honey and she like made milk and yogurt for the community. Uh, she's an amazing woman, Wendy. Um, and yeah, I knew that as soon as I finished high school, I needed to get out of the house. She pretty much kicked us out. Um, myself and my siblings. And they're like, she just said, "You need to find a job. You know, like, it's all on your own." So, you.
How old? 18 years old. Where were you living at the time?
South Africa. Whereabouts? Uh, so like N Took, so the southern suburbs, close to Cape Point, you know, like, yeah, beautiful area. So I moved to like the center of Cape Town, worked, and pretty much I've just been having to, to do everything myself. Like, I haven't had any help or financial support, like from 18 to to where I am now.
So you're kind of forced to do hard things and just take risks, you know? So like, yeah, I saved our money there in South Africa. Then I flew to the UK, not knowing anyone, just saying, "I'm going to get a job here because I've got a UK passport." My dad was born in Birmingham. Um, so that, that was like the biggest leap for me, I think, coming here, not knowing what to expect.
How old were you when you moved here?
19 years old.
So you moved here as a teenager with no family, no family here, no friends, no money?
Yeah, minimal, minimal amount of money. Staying in the backpackers, really. Yeah. In, in Hammersmith, actually. I think I had like £20 or £30 left to my name, and I was like, "I need to get a job." And I was looking for a living position, like a bartender, waitering job. And it all, it all just came together.
27. So just eight years ago? Yeah, that's mad.
Yeah. What do you think when you look back and you remember those days? Do you remember those days and think, "Man, I'm glad that's over"? Or you look back with a smile?
Or I look back with a smile. You know, like being young, and although it was a bit intimidating and scary, like you were free. I could do, you know, what I want. Like, no one knew me, so I could just have fun. I skateboarded a lot. I love skateboarding. Um, so no, I think those memories and those things I've done in life has really shaped.
Is your, is your girlfriend also South African?
She is. British. Yeah. Okay. So you met her here? She unfortunately supports Manchester United. Let's not go there. Come on, Liverpool. Is that what? Yeah, you're buying Liverpool. Exactly.
So what, what then did you do then? So you've got the one property making your grand a month, your girlfriend's working. What, what was her background?
So she was a luxury hotel operations manager. Um, and now she's just working for her parents' pub that they have on like a long list. So she's like, "I got the bills management side of things." Yeah. Great.
And that was what, like maybe about nine months ago now when you kind of took the plunge and went and went?
Exactly. Eight, nine months ago. About, yeah, about eight months if it was April.
So what happened since then? So what have you been doing the last eight months?
So, yeah, so we've taken on another three rent-to-service accommodation properties that are all doing very well. Um, I've also actually did a joint venture with my girlfriend's mom. We bought a house in Middlesbrough. I only, so I actually took a loan, a bit of money from her to join the academy. And then I put that money, that amount of money back into the deal of hers because she just wanted someone to hold her hand a bit, you know, cuz I obviously had the mentors and, and all of that.
Yeah, that sounds like an interesting sort of set then. So, so let's get this right then. So you want to join the academy, academy is £12,000. So your girlfriend's mom loaned you the money to join the academy on, on what basis? What did you say? How did you picture one?
So I, so again, they're very supportive. Like they're just the most amazing people. And yeah, I think she believed in me. She knows that I'm very driven and, you know, I was going to make it happen. You know, if it wasn't in the next year, you know, this year, it would have been the next. So she was just like, you know, "Pay me back when you, when you need to, when you want to, you know, when you can."
Wow, that's that's very kind. A lot of trust. So it wasn't like a business deal? It was just a loan?
No, not, not that loan. And then it got into business. So we set up our own limited company, then we purchased a house in Middlesbrough, which is going to be, yeah, so like going to be return investing like 30, 35% after the refinance that's going to be done in the next.
How much, how much did she have to put down to to secure that deal? That Middlesboro?
So it is £47,000 cash purchase. Yeah. I put was in, like, that's the purchase price. That's the purchase price. Yeah. What I thought that was the deposit. No. Mmm. It's like a two-bedroom house. £40, 47, 47 grand for the whole house.
And are you buying it cash?
Yeah, it's a spot cash. So you're buying it cash, spending how much on it?
£50,000 to. So we're converting it into a four-bed, four-bed HMO. The conversion is ongoing right now. It's, yeah, we've had a few hiccups. Project managers weren't the best. But no Japanese knotweed. No Japanese knotweed. Dutch. And yeah, we literally, it's going to be finished in the next three weeks. And then we're going to be refinancing it. GDV like 120. So yeah, the money left in with the rental income, it's like 30, 35% return.
So you're buying it for 47, spending 50,000? 50. So all in all, you're about 100 grand. Did you have to pay stamp duty?
Say we did. So we actually did. It was like £1,300. Sure. But I'm actually in the process of claiming that back because it was uninhabitable, pretty much. Right. Yeah. Right. So you're going to get that. But hopefully with some interest.
Well, that would be nice. No, they normally do. Really. If you pay stamp duty and, and you're not supposed to when you claim it back, it's very small, but they'll pay you back with interest. Interesting.
So about 100 grand all in, 120. So got about 20 grand profit then. You're going to get a mortgage after. Get back the majority of the money. Your girlfriend's mom will get paid back the majority of money she put in. And then the house is owned in a company. It will be owned in the company.
So since that, so her circumstances has changed, has changed a little bit. And because I only had such a small percentage, I just, I thought it wasn't right for me to say I sold her my share of the equivalent that she lent me the money for the, sorry, for the academy. So I'm out of the company now. We're all even. Oh. So the house is now hers? Completely hers now.
So she paid for you to do the academy. You paid her back with a house? Pretty much indirectly.
Yeah. So we did a joint venture. Well, we set up the company. And then, I just said, "No, like, you, I'll, I'm going to be managing for her." But, yeah, I just said, "You know, cuz I still owed her that money technically." I just said, "You know, rather you benefit 100%."
What a great way to pay people back. Yeah. It worked to pay. Do the academy and then pay them back in form of a house. It works. It works. Absolutely epic. So she must be over the moon.
Yeah, she is. She is. As soon as that refinance comes in, you know, I'm sure we're going to be doing another one. Or what would the ROI be on that on that little property?
£400 per room. So £1,600. Six for a little £47,000 house. And the mortgage is going to be minimal. Yeah. Yeah. Brit man, respect. £5,500 or so.
Are you going to buy more like that though? But you're so. So it would be nice to see like the first BR project go well in regards to, you know, the numbers and stuff being correct, because my first one wasn't the best. So, yeah, that's going to give me a lot of confidence. I've got a bespoke investor. I've actually onboarded them today. I'm going to be finding her BR as well.
So, yeah. What are you making at the moment? Uh, from your rents, from your property portfolio that you've got, that you've, you know, your rent-to-rent and your own property, what kind of cash flow you getting after all the expenses? What are you making a month?
So on average, so a lot of the properties are new. We took them on like, you know, three, four months ago. So they're just generating things. But on average, like £800 to £1,000 per property.
And how many properties?
So five in total. Five in total. So you're getting sort of around about four and a half grand. Exactly. Is that more than you were making when you were on the ship?
So I, so this month, including the deal sourcing, I've made, so it's £7,500 profit this month. Nice.
Talk about the deal sourcing then. What's that? How are you, what are you doing there?
I hate deal sourcing. And I never wanted to become a deal sourcer. I think I had a very negative mindset about it because weird. I love deal sources. No, now, yeah, now I love it. But, but I think at the time when I was just starting the journey in the academy and, and all of this stuff, um, I just had external deal sources like being very pushy and calling me, you know, and sending me just repetitive texts. And I was like, "Dude, I'm not at the right time not to buy a deal. I want to do it myself." So I think I just had a negative mindset. And it took me like three or four months to actually shift that. MH. But no, no, no. I'm just all deal sourcing to be honest. It's good when people are bad because it means when you're good, you shine through. If there's people in the industry that are being a bit hard-selling and a little bit annoying, when you're professional and not like that, it's like a breath of fresh air. Yeah.
No, so I'm excited. What is then? What, for anyone that doesn't know, what is deal sourcing? How does it work?
It's, yeah, very basic. So you have an investor or someone that wants to invest in a rent-to-rent or, you know, like buy a property, a BR. And they have the money. You've got the time. You've got the knowledge. Well, I've got the knowledge. I've got the time. I go out, do all the legwork, you know, make sure the deal's good, run it by the mentors, you know, get, get everything packaged, you know, paint the vision, paint the picture of the end results and, and the plan in, in their head. And they just pay your once-off fee. So, yeah, it ranges from like, yeah, £3,000 is like the base, really. Yeah. Um, and it goes up to, you know, 2% of the purchase price.
So, so you're selling what, a couple of deals a month, getting a bit of money coming in from that? Then you've got your rents, your rents. Now you're building your portfolio. You've paid back your, um, your girlfriend's mom via a house. How's life changed then? How, how, how are you, where are you at now compared to say, a year or so ago?
Yeah, I think I'm a lot more stable right now. Like in the last three, four months, it's really, um, you know, taking on so many new property rent ends in a short space of time. You know, there is a lot of risk. There's a lot of dealings and stuff, but you just got to trust the process. Uh, I've got like the medium-term strategy. So I've just got quite a lot of long-term guests currently. So I think right now, like, I think my, my vision of like where I wanted to be in life, I suppose, it's just like quadrupled in size. You know, like this is only the beginning. I feel like I'm only at 10%, and I've got another 90 to go. So I'm, I'm very excited. So, yeah, no, life's good. My girlfriend's still working. The next step, I've raised a bit of finance as well, like £30,000 in investors' finance to take on a few of my deals, like rent-to-rent and obviously the BR. So I'll be paying those investors back with a nice fixed interest. And then after that, then my girlfriend will be working full-time as well. And then I think time within, yeah, yeah. And then together, we're just going to, we're going to blow up for sure.
That's exciting. And it's been great getting to know as well because we've obviously, we hang out quite a bit. Talk a little bit about the Sunday socials. Some of the stuff that we get up to on the Sunday socials is beautiful. You obviously open up the church that that you go to. It's very welcoming. I'm a Christian. But yeah, there's all sorts of people there. So, yeah, it's just amazing to see you and the family in church and, you know, just being so loving and kind. And then afterwards, after the worship, we, we go and we get our ribs broken. Tell me the story, bro. Tell us, tell us the story.
So yeah, we, uh, so I'm a big fan of boxing. You're very good actually. You're very, very powerful. I should, I should train. But like I did it, like played around back in the day. But you, you can tell you've had some experience because we've obviously sparred quite a bit, and you hit hard, and you move good. You're very fit. You got a fight coming up on Sunday?
Yes, hopefully. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. I've, I've signed up. I'm going to be training for the, the next five days to, to not be so unprepared. But yeah, so we're at the boxing, we're like having a little warm-up, slight pad work session, you and I. And yeah, we did like a few, I suppose, maneuvers. And yeah, you just, you hit me on the one-for-one sparring. I think it was two-for-two or something. Boom, boom. And you, yeah, you jabbed and then you just hooked me here, and I just dropped to the floor. Like I thought you just winded me like with a kidney shot. But I think like three days later, I went to the doctor because I was in severe pain. And yeah, they said like I cracked, cracked the rib.
You cracked the rib. But it was all, all love, of course. I didn't know how I felt about that. Part of me was like, "Yeah, man." But then I was also like, "Oh, man, I hope he's okay." Because we didn't see for a few weeks. It's true. I think it was like, it took me about six weeks to actually be 100%. We saw you at the property training event. We just didn't see you boxing for a little while. So you're going to get your, you're going to get your payback. Um, I think I think soon. I need to be careful with next time you come on. Every time I come on Sunday, I pray I'm in the room with you. I think Sally knows there's a bit of beef.
Oh, I bet. I bet. No, but it's, it's good, man. And I think as well, like working out together, fellowshipping, being able to go to church, just do life. You know, I, I think for me, it's, it's one of the reasons why we're on the academy. And you've been a massive asset to the academy. You know, not not just becoming successful yourself, but also pulling up some of the newbies and helping people, inspiring people. What would you say has been like some of the key takeaways then over the, over this last sort of eight, eight, eight months or so? What have been some of the biggest lessons? If you were going to advise someone that was just getting started?
Just, just actually start. The one-pound crash course, you know, that's where it all began for me, and like most people in the academy. So like that was probably the biggest decision I've made in life. Um, and it's one pound. But other than that, I think like seek, seek help if you need it. Like don't suffer in silence. Yeah. Um, thankfully, the mentors have been there for me. Like I probably should have called them a bit sooner when I had problems sometimes, but they, they've always been great. And then I think just get yourself in that environment, uh, which for me has been the academy. You know, when you see other people making £100,000 here, like for rent-to-rent, financially free, you know, it just drives you. It gives you that motivation to really achieve what you want to achieve.
That's epic, man. Well, listen, look forward to seeing what, what's next. Congratulations on everything you've done, and it's been a real pleasure working with you and, and seeing you win. So thank you so much.
Appreciate it. Samuel, thank you so much.