Transcription
[Music] Good afternoon. I'm gonna go ahead and get started. It's 12 o'clock, and so we have only about an hour together. I'm Matt Stanford, I'm the CEO of the Hope and Healing Center, an institute. And welcome to our Lunch and Learn today.
The Hope and Healing Center is a comprehensive mental health resource for the community. We offer a variety of mental health services, primarily for those with serious mental illness and addiction. You'll find brochures on the table as you go out. All of our services, all of our services are no cost, and the majority of people that come here don't have any resources for the services that we offer. We also have a lot of programs. You'll see those out on the kind of the bulletin board area out there. Please pick those up. If you're interested in being part of our mailing list, you just get on our website, hopeinhealingcenter.org, and put in your email. You'll get a twice-monthly update on what's going on here and the programs that are upcoming, like the one that we have today.
I have to say that I'm a little surprised there's so many people here. I'm very happy that we had 90 people, believe it or not, registered for this. It is, I, you know, I'm very interested in personality disorders, and I'll tell you about all the personality disorders that I've worked with, but as we go through this. But, you know, I just really didn't know that many people would be interested in this topic. So I will say that I could have entitled this perhaps, and this may be why some of you are here, is, you know, being an arrogant jerk does not make you a narcissistic personality disorder. It does not mean that they're not the same thing. You know, this is a disorder, and we'll talk about that as we go through.
Most of the I work with a lot of personality disorders. My primary area of research has been in impulsive and aggressive behavior most of my career. So I've worked with a lot of people who are explosively violent and coming up with treatments for that. And most of those people have personality disorders, and a large number of those people had a narcissistic personality disorder. So people with narcissistic personality disorder can be very explosive, very aggressive. Not all. That's not a, you don't have to be that to have the disorder, but we'll talk about that as we go through as well. But I don't, you know, I would say, I would, I would say this. My hope would be for this talk is that I'm gonna probably, you're probably gonna walk away thinking of this as something different than what you thought it was, what you got here. So, and I think that's a good thing. Okay.
So, so let's go through and type of that. But first, we have to really talk about what is a personality disorder? Because that is, that's really the key here. We use that term a lot. You hear it thrown around. So this is a clinical definition. It's a, it's a long-lasting, rigid pattern of maladaptive thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. It's really the kind of the core aspect of that. It's enduring. It's because it's a pattern, both inner experience and external experience. Its inflexible, its pervasive, its chronic. It's a personality disorder is a different kind of mental disorder than say, having depression. Because when you think of someone having depression, you think of somebody having a period of time when they are depressed and having a period of time when they're not depressed, right? I mean, you think of it that way. Even with someone with bipolar disorder, you would think of them as having a time where their symptoms may be kind of manifesting, and maybe they're depressed or they're in a euphoric manic phase, but there are periods of time where they're relatively okay. They're, they're doing well, okay, between the, the vacillations of their, of their moods.
Well, the personality disorder, it is, in essence, who the person is. It's not something that they, you know, you know, if you're, let's say, for instance, if you're here now and you're 32 years old and you've never been diagnosed with a personality disorder, congratulations. You're never going to have a personality disorder. This is not going to happen. You might have a personality change. I mean, I could hit you in the head with a hammer enough times to give you a personality change, but that's not a personality disorder. So this is something that comes out of, you will talk about the onset, comes out of late adolescence, early adulthood, and then that's where it's fully, and that's, you, that's how you are. And think about your personality right now. You might be a little bit anxious, or you might be kind of an extroverted person, or you have personality characteristics, right? Well, go home tonight and say, tomorrow, I'm gonna wake up and be a completely different person. I'm not gonna be extroverted. Like I, I smile all the time. People tell me that all the time. Like I'll smile through this whole thing. I'll be telling you about somebody who murdered somebody, and I'll be smiling. Okay. I have literally said to myself, I'm not gonna smile anymore when I do these presentations on violence. Through the whole thing, I, it's just, it's just do it. It's just part of it. It's a habit. It's just what I am. So I could work on that over time and maybe put it, make it go down some, but could I completely change who I am? So that's the nature of a personality disorder. It's a, it's a maladaptive pattern of kind of personality that's in place very early, even beginning to manifest in in early adolescence, and then that's who the person is.
So you can imagine the problems that that's going to cause when you then have this person before you and you say, but you have a personality disorder, and we need to treat you. Because if you have depression, you know that things aren't the way that you want them to be, right? You don't want to be depressed anymore. Well, if you have a personality disorder, that's just how you are. Why do I need to change? The problem is everybody else. And we'll talk about that as we go through.
So these are the, the personality disorders that are in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, which is how we diagnose people with mental illnesses. And I thought that it was important that you see kind of where a narcissistic personality disorder falls. Because there's a variety of personality disorders, and they fall into these three clusters of A, B, and C, or sometimes called odd, eccentric, dramatic, erratic, or anxious, fearful. So, once you've, may have heard of, typically people have heard of antisocial or borderline, and they may have heard of narcissistic. That tends to be the personality disorders that people have actually heard of. Well, those all fall in the same cluster, and they overlap so much that honestly, as someone who does clinical work, if someone is sitting in front of you, they have one of those disorders, it's very hard to tell what, what the difference is. Sometimes they can look so similar to one another. In fact, their traits will overlap so much that someone will be antisocial with borderline traits, or borderline with narcissistic traits. I mean, it, it overlaps a lot.
So this cluster here, they lack impulse control. They have a lot of problems with emotional regulation, and that tends to be really where this manifests. They have real problems with relationships. Their relationships are a disaster. They're overly clingy. They show no empathy. I mean, it can be a real mess. In the odd cluster, paranoid, schizotypal. These people look a lot of times more like kind of a subclinical schizophrenic, in a sense. They might show some of those symptoms, even some delusional behavior or thought patterns. Awkward, socially withdrawn, distorted thinking. These people tend to isolate themselves socially. They'll pull away. And then this anxious cluster here, avoidant, dependent, obsessive-compulsive. Obsessive-compulsive can look like a subclinical obsessive-compulsive disorder, but the person is still relatively functional. It's still impacting them in a negative way, but they're not fully OCD. But these people are very anxious. They also have a tendency to socially withdraw. Whereas these two, not necessarily socially withdraw. In fact, that can be the problem. They will be all up in your face and messing everything up and causing a lot of problems. And this is where you can get a lot of acting out kind of behavior. Okay.
So now you kind of see where that falls. Now, now let's just understand something as we go through. When you say someone has a disorder, okay, it's never a good thing to have a disorder. Okay? So that means that you've crossed over a line, some kind of a threshold, that says it now negatively impacts my life. Okay? I cannot function normally because of this problem. Be that depression, bipolar, or personality disorder, or a narcissistic personality disorder. Okay? So the first thing that you're going to need to realize as we go through and talk about narcissistic personality, people with narcissistic personality disorder do not, they're not successful. They do not do well. There, they mean it. Again, we have a tendency to look at people that are in the public eye or actors or people that are arrogant, and we look at them and we say, well, that person, that's a narcissistic person, I swear. Well, the problem is, is I've met, I mean, I've met lots of people with narcissism. You've probably just maybe met one that maybe why you're here. Okay? I've met a lot, and I've never met one that was successful that wasn't unemployed multiple times, barely finished school, that they even finished school, married multiple times, substance use problems, just a disaster. Okay? And we'll talk about that as we go through. This affects your life in a very negative way. Again, being an arrogant jerk does not narcissists make. Okay? We'll see that as together. All right.
So there he is, the man himself, Narcissus. Okay. So where do we get this idea? Narcissus is a mythological figure. He was a son of Sisyphus and Liriope, who's a, she was a forest nymph who was raped by the, it's a wonderful story, raped by the river god Cephissus. And and so he's so speedy, incredibly beautiful. He was a hunter. He also, he's extremely arrogant and he hated and despised anyone who loved him. Okay. So, and so the, the mountain nymph Echo, loud nymphs in this story, she fell in love with him when she saw him because he's so beautiful. And then she, of course, tried to woo him, and he despised her for that and spurned her. And then she, she then wandered off into the mountains and little, and literally drifted away into nothing but an echo. That's all she became because she was so destroyed. And the goddess of revenge, Nemesis, saw what he had done. And so she, she led him kind of away into an area where there was a spring. And so when he went to get a drink, he saw his reflection, and he was so beautiful, he fell in love with his reflection. And depending on which story you read, he, because he would, the reflection would never, you know, you know, give his love back to him, he either dwindled away into nothingness and became the flower, the narcissus, have you ever seen or seen the flower? And he always becomes the flower. Or he killed himself and became the flower because this person that he fell in love with wouldn't reciprocate his love. So it's a wonderful story. And and so originally, the term was not used for for individuals that had narcissistic or a kind of a personality issue. That didn't come until say around 1911. Even Freud was probably some of the earliest writings. There was a one right before that that suggested it was more of a personality. Prior to that, it was actually used for people, and I apologize, it's just, it's just how it is, for who were chronic masturbators because the thought was they were in love with themselves. And so that was where the term was originated in psychology. And then that was probably late 1800s, very early 1900s. And then it was taken into the personality realm, and that we use it today, narcissistic personality disorder.
Now, this is kind of a description of what clinically we would call someone who had no sort of extreme feelings of self-importance, a high need for admiration. I'm going to give you guys some examples of people that I've worked with, and a lack of empathy. Individuals with narcissistic personality disorder often exploit others by their own for their own gain, and are overly sensitive to criticism, judgment, or defeat, rejection. They can't handle any criticism, even at the lowest level. Okay? Even perceived criticism, which may not even be real. So it's like, well, I know that he thinks that I'm not as good as him, so I quit. I'm just gonna quit because I should really be the manager. I know I'm the stock boy, which is an actual guy I worked with. I know the only good job I can get is as a stock boy, but I should be the manager of this organization because I'm so much smarter than that guy. So I'm not working here anymore. Not gonna work for somebody who's not smart as I am. So, and that was multiple jobs that this guy had quit over and over and over. So now, again, I think a lot of times the perception of the narcissist is that the guy's just super arrogant, and so he becomes, he's aggressive, and he's arrogant, and he's gonna work his way, and he's gonna show everybody how. No, you can't do that because he already is better than everyone else. He already is smarter than everyone else. He, he is more successful. It's just your fault that he isn't manifesting that.
So let's go through and look at the actual criteria because I think this is where you're gonna go, oh, wait, maybe that's not my husband. And so, and a lot of ladies in here, I noticed. So, or maybe that's not my brother, or whoever it is that you're here for. Okay? So, and I do get a lot of emails and a lot of calls of people that say, you know, I know that my most recent was, I know my sister-in-law is a narcissist. I don't know what to do. She's destroying our family. And she may be okay. But, and I'll give you some thoughts on that at the end. Please come on in. We're about a purvey. This is literally right from the diagnostic team, you know. So we're gonna go through, and whoever you came here for, you're gonna be able to see if they actually meet the criteria. Okay.
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity in fantasy or behavior. So grandiosity, we're gonna describe some examples that, but they think more of themselves. And I, and I mean more than you just, I mean, you really think more than yourself. Okay? I mean, not its grandiose need for admiration, lack of empathy. Beginning by early adulthood, was it in a variety of context? So variety of context is an important aspect of that. Okay? It's not that he's just that way with you. He's that way in more than one context. So the big three are always work, school, relationships. Okay? So if he's just with you, he's such a jerk to me, but everybody else thinks everything's great, that's probably not a personality disorder. Because a personality disorder is it's everywhere. It's all over. You can't conceal it. This person can't hold this in because it's who they are. Okay?
Now, you have to have five or more of the following. Okay? Here's our first one. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance. Exaggerates achievements. And so this is where the guy's telling you things like, literally, I should be the manager of this store. Well, why should be the manager of the store? You have no experience running a store. I'm so much smarter than this guy. Well, this guy, he went to whatever college, he has this degree. It doesn't matter. I know so much more than this guy. Or, you know, they always have some, there's some kind of a, kind of on the lot of times what I'll see is on the just on the cusp of this great thing that's gonna happen that they're gonna figure out. I stay home and I hear this a lot more recently. I do a lot of research because I'm getting, I'm developing this company. And right now, I'm just looking for investors. I've heard that more times than I can tell you about. Okay? Because it's not that they, now, what a lot of people do is like, okay, well, you know, I want to go into hospital administration. So I'm gonna go and get a job. I'm gonna get a degree. I'm gonna then get a job, and I'm gonna start working my way up, get experience, right? Well, no, the narcissist doesn't do that. The narcissist says, I know everything there is to know about this. And so I'm gonna start a hospital. And so all I have to do now is I have to just get everything laid out, and I haven't convinced people because they'll, when I talk to them, they'll understand. They just need to give me money to start a hospital. Now, that's grandiose. They see all that. It's almost, I mean, it's not delusional. I mean, certainly there are people who have started hospitals that didn't have experience. I mean, it could happen. Okay? But it's grandiose. Okay? So that's one.
Gonna have five of these that we're gonna go through. Think they're nine, if I'm a right. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love. Okay? So it is, you know, I am, you know, I'm gonna be the CEO of the number one Fortune 500 company in the country. I mean, it's just how it's gonna be. And that's a great goal, but not if, you know, you have a job history of like 14 part-time jobs that you never held more than three months. And, and I've seen that multiple times. And that's what they're telling you. I'm going to be the CEO of Methodist Hospital. They just have to see my talent. Or I'm gonna be, a lot of times nowadays, it's, I'm going to be a famous musician, a famous producer. You know, again, it's different than somebody who has a great dream. There's, it's, there's a difference. And someone who has a great dream that's working towards it, has a, has a plan and a process that's realistic, even if it's a grandiose. You know, I want to be an astronaut. You know, and only a few people become an astronaut, but it's a great dream, and they're working towards it. It's different than, I'm gonna be an astronaut, so I'm gonna drive down to NASA and I'm gonna talk to them, and I, and it's someone with narcissistic personality disorder, very well could think that that would work. I'll go down and I'll talk to them, and they'll realize how brilliant I am. You know, they don't, y'all get people will call me and they'll, they'll say, you know, I have this, I have a, I have a treatment for depression, and I would like you to do a study on it. And I just have, more than once, and I'm like, okay, well, great. Well, where are you? What university? Oh, yeah, well, no, I'm not at a university. I don't, in fact, I ever went to college, but I have this all figured out. And, and I'm not talking about a delusional person that has it has an unrealistic, like they don't, they don't know reality. They really believe that they, that I should do it. And they get mad at me when I won't do it because I need to listen to them. So unlimited success, power, brilliance. Occasionally, it's, you know, the narcissist thing. Occasionally, it's that I'm just the greatest guy in the world. I'm so beautiful. But that's usually not how it is. It's more intelligence. And they just don't understand who I am. They're intimidated by me. That I hear that a lot. That's the reason that nobody wants to work with me. They're just intimidated because I'm so much better, I'm so much smarter. I'm gonna be so much more successful. They're intimidated, and they don't want me to be around.
Believes that he or she is special and unique, and can only be understood by or associated with special people or, you know. So it's, I can't go work with, you know, people here in town that are involved in the music business. I have to work with Jay-Z. And I mean, I'm not working with any Houston. I'm not working with these guys. These guys are nothing. These guys are on my level. I've heard that a lot. They're not on my level. Ma, you know, I'm so beyond that at this point that I need to go. And then the, but then now, does the person then try to pursue Jay-Z? No, because there's no way they can get anywhere near Jay-Z. But they will continue to tell you that they're working on plans, you know, to do this. It's a very pitiful kind of a situation. It's not that you're talking to the person and you're just awed and inspired by this individual. Like you are so drawn to them. Like this is the most charismatic. They're not very charismatic. I tend to find them pathetic most of the time. It's kind of sad because they're disordered. And I think again, we tend to say, if you're arrogant and a jerk, then that makes you narcissistic. And that's just different. You can just be arrogant and a jerk. That's just to your, requires excessive admiration. They constantly need you. So if you are their wife or girlfriend, because usually they can't maintain an actual healthy marriage, it doesn't last very long. They constantly need you. Oh, excuse me. And actually, ultimately, it's not possible for you to give them enough admiration. They will leave you because you did not give them enough respect and admiration and affirmation. You just aren't giving enough, and they will go find somebody else. In the short term, that on a Friday night at a bar here in town will show them a little more admiration, and then you're gone. They're gone. They're moving on. Okay? They're just moving on. And so, and then that won't be enough, and they'll move on. It needs to be constant. Just constant. Now, this is something that's pretty consistent with everyone I've ever seen and most people have ever heard of. The admiration aspect is is just absolutely necessary all the time. They need people to tell. And if you, in any way, questioned anything they do, and I, when I say that, I don't mean, oh, there's no way you're gonna beat Jay-Z. I mean, well, how are you gonna meet Jay-Z? That might be too much of a question. You should just assume that they're gonna be able to do it because that's who they are.
Has a sense of entitlement, unreasonable expectations, especially of favorable treatment or automatic compliance. If they say something, you do it. There's no question, there's no hesitation. Because to hesitate or even ask why not, that you're not going to do it, for even asked why, would be a rejection of their entitled state or their authority. Is interpersonally exploitive. They absolutely take advantage of people. They manipulate people to get to what they need. They will, you know, I have seen, what I've seen mostly since I've come here are say, 40-something-year-old males that are still leeching off their parents, unmarried males taking advantage of their parents that take care of them. They don't have a job. They may or may not have finished college. Their parents pay for virtually everything. If they live at home, their parents, they may even live in an apartment, their parents pay for everything. Parents are desperate to try to push them away. And the parents understand why. They, you think they look at as a failure to launch kind of issue, but it's not a failure to launch issue. It's a personality disorder. That's a failure to launch is a different thing that happens to, but this is a different thing. You don't get to 42 years old and you failed to launch. Okay? And that's there's something a little deeper at that point. So very interpersonally exploitive. Now, if you describe it to them in that way, first off, they would see that as rejecting and questioning, and they would end the conversation. But they don't see it that way at all. It's owed to them. That's, I'm their son. They want to support me because I'm going to be successful. They've invested a lot. I've heard that, invested a lot in me, and they're, it's gonna pay off in the end for them.
Lacks empathy, is unwilling to recognize or identify the feelings and needs of others. They, this just goes hand in hand with the thing before that, the exploitive aspect or they're manipulative aspect. They just really are not able to to make any kind of connection with another individual's emotions. If you are horribly sad and upset, there's, it's just impossible for them to connect. That's not a conscious decision they make. That's really a kind of a clinical feature of that, that cluster B personality disorder. They just cannot effectively connect emotionally. They just don't understand what normal emotions are. So, so you can be crying or happy, or they don't really understand what that is. So they're not going to connect with you. So I mean, a lot of times, I mean, if you look at a lot of theories of, for instance, violence, and why we don't more of us kill each other, you know, let's say people get in fights, but not more people fight and kill the person they're fighting with, right? But there's a whole theory. The reason you don't, that you kind of limit what you do is because you begin to connect with the person that you're harming, and you don't want to go too far. Okay? I remember a prisoner that I worked with that his own gang members pulled him off of a guy because he'd gone way beyond it. They all hated the guy that he was attacking because he had finally had a rock over the guy, he's gonna crush his head with it in a field. And they're like, man, he walked, wet, he went way over the line. Even they were shocked. So it's just not possible for them to connect at all. They just, they're completely oblivious. Emotions are just not something they really understand.
Then finally, they are envious of others or believe that others are envious of them. I have seen that in almost every one that I've worked with. That's why they're not successful. Because they're not successful. And when you're not successful, and I'm, I don't just mean that financially, I mean interpersonally, whatever you're not where you want to be in life as a human, you do some self-evaluation and you say, what is it that's keeping me from getting to where I need to be? Well, you could look inside. You can introspect. You could say, well, maybe I don't have the skills that I need. Maybe I have some personality quirks. I might need it. What do I need to change about myself? Okay? And then you look externally. You say, what barriers are outside of me? Well, if everything inside is already great, then why would you, there's no problem inside. The problem all must come from outside. And, and this is what you hear the most. And that is, well, the reason that, the reason that they fired me again, that this last job was because my manager knew that I would have his job inside of a month. That's a quote that I heard from a guy had a target. He was fired from, which was the only job he could get was like a night stocker, stalker, at a target, which is a fine job. There's nothing wrong with that. I think hard labor is hard work, a good thing, right? But that's it. This is all the job he could get because it doesn't interact with a lot of people. And unfortunately, I'd to interact with a person. You know, here's a, here's a great one. This happened in New Orleans. The guy was also a stalker at a grocery store. It's a common job for the narcissist, I guess. He hit the regional manager in the aisle. Okay? And I said, so I want you to just, just listen to what I say because this just shows you the complete lack of comprehension of everything. Okay? Why did you hit the regional manager? I don't know. It was a regional manager. So he had been the regional manager a little bit of area, but been great. Okay? And so I don't know. He's a regional man. If he wasn't the regional manager, I could have hit it. It was no big deal. The thing was is the guy questioned what he was doing on the, he didn't, wasn't doing the stocking right. And so he'd literally turn around, just hit the manager right there. And he got fired, by the way. Or a shock. And of course, he had a labor dispute of why that all came down on him. He didn't do anything really wrong.
So five of these. So I want you to think about somebody who has five out of those eight. That that's not a, that's not a functional person. Okay? I mean, they, they, they can't maintain a relationship. They typically can't maintain employment unless they, excuse me, unless they work in a job where they just work by themselves. You know, it's not, they're not intelligent. That's not what I'm saying. In fact, many, many of the people I've known have gotten through, been able to get through college, whereas people with schizophrenia or even bipolar disorder, that, that one that manifests early, not, they're not able to, a lot of times, to get through college until that's managed effectively. But I've seen them be able to get through because that can be a relatively singular thing if you can keep yourself focused. So, but this is a, this is a really dysfunctional individual. So I want you to think about that. It's not to say that someone can't be the head of a Fortune 500 company, be a narcissist. That's certainly true. But we use that term pretty generally. Narcissism just means you're pretty kind of self-focused. But personality disorder, I mean, people are psychopaths. You know, the Blackburn, famous psychopath researcher, always said that narcissism was the core of psychopathy. So the core of a psychopath is narcissism. But that doesn't mean they have narcissistic personality disorder. It just means if they're very arrogant and self-focused, and you know, so, I mean, you can be narcissistic and not necessarily have the personality disorder. Does that make sense? So, so your husband or boyfriend or wife or sister-in-law or mother-in-law, I don't know. So they may all not be.
And then finally, shows arrogant, haughty behaviors. And that's that's what you think of. This is what people think of as narcissistic. They're arrogant. You know, if I think they're, the things are better than everybody. She thinks she's better than me. She probably does. She probably does. Now, you know, so you have to say, well, you know, why does she think she's better than me? What is, what is the, what's the metric that she's using? And usually their metric is not realistic. It's not a realistic metric. It's not that, well, I'm better than you because you mistreat your children and I don't, you know, my children being successful and you're, you know, and you do this, this bad behavior. And that, you know, it's more like, you know, I'm just so much smarter than you just by nature. That's just, you, I'm a special person. But again, not in a delusional way. I mean, you can meet someone who has a psychotic disorder, and they can describe to you how they have a special relationship with God, and they hear things from God, and they have powers and abilities. And that's not narcissistic. That's delusional. This is a much more within the realm of this person will have convinced at least a few people in life that they really are as smart as they tell you they are. Now, those people will figure out they're not, but they won't convince somebody. Confidence goes a long way in our society. If I just tell you, yeah, I'm the smartest person you ever met, you're like, well, this guy must really be the smartest person I ever met because who would say that unless they really were, right?
All right. So there's kind of common manifestations of what this looks like. There is what you think of or has just been described to you, this kind of overt narcissism or grandiose narcissism, or what's sometimes called fixed and narcissism, which is that arrogant, pretentious, dominant, this is the jerky kind of, you know, that that narcissist. And there is another kind, and this is the vulnerable or covert narcissist, also called the thin-skinned narcissist. The, the manifestation is much more uncommon, oversensitive, very insecure individual who just absolutely destroyed by any questioning or rejection or resistance whatsoever. And, and that's, they're just so inadequate, they almost can't function because of that inadequacy. And so that, it's a little bit of a derp. They don't come off as obnoxious and anxious and arrogant, or obnoxious and arrogant as the top one. Their much more insecure, and so they're not that kind of verbose, in-your-face kind of. But these are both will meet criteria for narcissistic personality disorder. Around that. And I show you that because to show you that they don't all look exactly the same. I mean, they can walk in, and you can be sitting with them, and you, you just don't have a full sense that they meet criteria for the disorder. Okay? So it can look kind of different. Both of them are dysfunctional, unsuccessful. You know, it's a very, they're, you know, to me, not to their relatives, but to me, they're very sympathetic characters because they are a mess. They are a mess.
All right. So the epidemiology. This, this is actually very rare. I know, again, we talk about it like it just happens like everybody's got one in their family. 1.2% of the population. Okay? It's very rare. That's on the same, that's about the same percentage of schizophrenia. Okay? So I mean, this is a very rare kind of instance. Right? But you also, they're saying there's a, there is a way of getting around that. They do surveys of the population where you don't actually have to have someone coming to a clinic, and you can get a sense of whether they meet the criteria or not. That's a pretty good consistent measure. Personality disorders in general tend to be relatively rare. Late teens, early adulthood, that's when it's gonna manifest. Where, and when I say that, I mean, that's when they could be diagnosed. Okay? You can't really be diagnosed with a personality disorder until about 18, anyway. And so, you know, you might start to see some sense of it when they're a little bit of a younger adolescent, but late teens, early adulthood, there it is. And there it is. It's not gonna just go away. Okay? So whereas it might be the same period of onset, say, for a depressive episode, but they weren't depressed, and now they are depressed. And unfortunately, I mean, if they, if you allow them to suffer long enough without, I mean, in a depressive episode, at least 70% of people will spontaneously move out of that depressive episode. I mean, they'll suffer a lot, but you don't spontaneously move out of a personality disorder. That's your personality. That's you. So 60, 7, I'm sorry, it's 50 to 75%. The normal number here. 70% of all diagnoses are men. It's, it's just, I mean, it's rare enough in a man, it's, you just almost don't see it in a woman. It's pretty rare in a woman. So that's like, so when you call me and you tell me that your sister, sister-in-law, aunt, mother, has not said it's more likely that she has, if she has a personality disorder, she has a history on it, precise order of borderline personality. She, if she really is showing those kind of symptoms, let's say she probably has one of the other personality disorders that's more common in women than in men. So you tend to see borderline and histrionic in that cluster B in women, more narcissistic and antisocial more in men. Again, not impossible. I've seen lots of women that have antisocial. But, and there are plenty that they say it's under diagnosed in women, over diagnosed in men. But there's such an overlap. But as far as diagnosis is gone, it's relatively rare in women. Heavy genetic variation is accounted for by our heavy variation in the disorders accounted for by genetics. I mean, it is heavily genetic. So that's the other thing you need to look at. So this guy that you came here to figure out about today, okay? What is his dad like? What is his uncle like? What is his brother like? What is his mother like? Okay? It's not, these people don't come from some perfect, pristine family. They don't. They didn't just walk, you know, they just didn't leave River Oaks Country Club one day because they lost a tennis match, and all of a sudden they're really arrogant and upset with themselves. Now, because they don't, I mean, this is, there's a reason that this happens. So you either were raised by the person that is narcissistic, and they taught you how to be that way, or they gave you their genes, or both, which is really the answer. Does that make sense? So it's not that you just, man, you know, it's just my childhood was perfect, and I'm a mess. I mean, it happens. I'm not saying that. It certainly happens with things like schizophrenia and things like that. But these are, there's a little bit more of a learned aspect. We'll see as we go through. High rate of suicide in these individuals. Extremely high rate of suicide, particularly even for the personality disorders. And when they do commit suicide or attempt suicide, they tend to use more lethal means, which means they're more likely to go with firearms or hanging. So they're more successful with suicide. So again, not something most people think about with narcissists, because they usually think the person is such a jerk and so arrogant and think they're so perfect, why would they kill themselves? Though they're so perfect, they're a menace. They're in tremendous distress. The core of this disorder is that you have no value and you're worthless. So you have to, you are over-exaggerated in an attempt to control your environment and convince everyone else that you really are as great as you desperately would hope that they would think you were. You know, I'm saying, because you really feel like you have no value.
Yeah, that's a great question. I'm gonna answer that in just a second. She asked, did they have insight into that situation? And not, and that we're gonna talk about treatment in a minute, and that's the answer. Co-occurring disorders. Substance abuse through the roof. They're all, they're all using, they're drinking, you know, lots because they're trying to deal with all of this mess that's going on in their head. A lot of depression, a lot of anxiety disorders, because anxiety is all wrapped up in this. Again, their presentation is that they're, don't worry about anything, but they're just a mess. I mean, that second manifestation is all anxious. They're so nervous that they're going to be rejected. And then lots of other personality disorder overlaps. You, it's not uncommon to see somebody that's diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder also having histrionic or borderline or where these other personality disorders also diagnosed because the overlap is so common on the symptoms. So this is again, this is not the guy who runs, you know, I don't know what, you know, Google. Okay? I mean, this isn't, you know, this is not a successful person.
Risk factors. What would cause somebody, you know, to do this other than obvious and genetics? A mismatch in parent-child relationships with either a kind of excessive affirmation or adoration or excessive criticism that doesn't match up with the child's, you know, kind of daily life or behavior. So the parent overly adores the child and affirms them for everything they do, even when they're a disaster, or just the opposite, no matter how well they do or what they do, they're always criticized. That, that's been shown to be a risk factor. A childhood emotional abuse and neglect. Very common in individuals with those personality disorders. And that cluster B is some kind of trauma early on. Unpredictable parent care. So they're, you know, inconsistent discipline, you know, all types of things like that, you know, absentee parents, those types of things. And actually learning manipulation from your caregiver. You can learn. So a person's put into into almost a criminal family environment where the family actually teaches them to behave this way. A child can learn to behave this way, and then in essence, that forms their personality as they're growing, and then that's what they become. Now, you know, they're, you've got to try to tease apart the genetics. Why is the family behaving this way? You know, did they learn it? Is it, you know, what, it's so there's a lot of kind of complex interactions there. But all of these have been shown to be related as risk factors or increase the likelihood. So again, not, you know, walking out of the perfect, pristine, loving parental situation and then you're just a disaster for no reason. And I know that that's how we like to think about the narcissist. We like, we don't want to, we do not want to give the narcissist any credit for why they might be that way. There's no, there's, they are bad, and we want to think of them as bad. We do not want to show sympathy to them. They are bad people. Whereas, you know, it's very possible that they are the way they are because somebody abused the crap out of them when they were a child. And I've seen that for the attacks, unfortunately. Now, are they aversive and horrible to be around? Absolutely. Did they destroy families and relationships and damage people? Absolutely. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying there's a reason why that happens. You know, the, I mean, you can get into all cliches. I mean, hurt people, hurt people. I mean, that that's really what happens here.
All right. So back to this question about insight. Okay? There are treatments for this. Okay? In fact, there's a very effective treatment for it. The problem would be, you know, it would be like if I told you that you had a heart problem, but you were convinced you did not have a heart problem. And I'm gonna try to force you to go get treatment down at the, you know, Heart Institute or something. And you're like, I don't need to go there. So you might go once just to satisfy me to shut me up. But why would you ever go back? It's not a lack of insight like someone who has a psychotic disorder where they literally don't believe that they're ill. Okay? You know, like someone with schizophrenia might have an anosognosia where they have no insight into the fact that they're ill. They were literally don't believe that they're ill. They think the reality that they live in, which is a broken reality, is the real world. There really are agents out to get me, and things like that. Okay? They're, they understand that things are a mess. They understand that they are not the head of a Fortune 500 company, but they should be. But that's your fault. That's not. They know that there's a problem. You're the problem. And yeah, you know what, we do need to go to get some therapy, you and me, because you need to learn to really affirm me more and understand, you know, what I'm doing for you and how lucky you are that we're together. You know, I'm gonna, we're gonna be rich one day if you just kind of come along and support me. So yeah, there's a problem, but you know, that it's an external problem. So yeah, there's not a real understanding of, you know, what the problem really is.
So individual psychotherapy, particularly dialectical behavior therapy, which we do actually offer here, can be effective. But but also, won't you just kind of picture this from a clinical sense for a moment? You come into the office, you know, you, someone convinced you to come, first of all, which is weird in its own right, because this is one that just doesn't show up at the clinic very often. Normally, this is showing up through some kind of a criminal or a forced kind of push into the okay, because remember, they don't care what you think. So if you're married to them and you're saying, look, I'm gonna leave you if you don't go get help, leave me. I can do better than you anyway. Look at me. You know, seriously. So why would I go? That's not going to do anything for him. So they show up in smaller numbers than you would anticipate. So they show up, and you say to them, oh, you have done this assessment. I know exactly what's wrong with you, and we can treat it. You have narcissistic personality disorder. How do you think that goes over? Do you think that they go, well, thank you. I finally understand why my whole life's been a disaster since I was a late adolescent. I'm a just an arrogant jerk, and I have no idea what's really going on, and I have grandiose concepts of my greatness, and you were so right. Thank you. That does. In fact, most therapists I know that work with people that have this don't even tell them that that's what they have. They don't, they don't actually tell them their diagnosis, or they'll leave.
So that's part of the problem here, okay? Is that they're not going to go. That's a great thing that I have that, and I'm glad we figured that out. Although, you know, when people have depression or bipolar disorders, that a lot of times they tell you when they finally heard what they actually had, that was the first day that they finally had hope that they could be better because now they know, well, this is different. Coping skills, you can work it.
So, Ken, this is what people tend to do as far as treatment goes. You don't actually treat a narcissistic personality disorder because a person isn't going to come in for that kind of intensive, long-term because you literally have to re, basically alter their personality to some sit. So you focus on those symptomatic aspects of it. So coping skills to improve, kind of, the ability to accept criticism, things like that.
So let's say that you sent your husband or somebody to me, and and and they, and now we figured out that's what they've got, and you say, "One of the biggest things is anything I say to him, he takes as rejection." Okay, well, we could start to work on that and never mention narcissistic personality disorder. And actually, if he connects into that and starts to actually do some of the things and learn some of the skills and techniques, then it could be, your relationship can be better. He still got a narcissistic personality disorder, could be a mess, but it can be better.
Now, why would he do that? He said, you know, it depends on how seriously into this disorder, you know, what, what's the intensity of the disorder? Because remember, he doesn't really care about other people's emotions. And and that would be a motivation for him to be better because he wanted your relationship to be better. He didn't need you, find somebody else in a second anyway, that's in his mind. So, so empathy building, that's another one. You can focus on that.
Also, coexisting conditions. And that's the most common. Guy shows up, he's got a substance use problem, and he has personality disorder. Treat the substance use problem. Now, is he likely to relapse? Sure. But you got to go with what you got. Depression, can I treat that? In a, yeah, you can treat that. And some of narcissism and sit there the whole time knowing, man, your real problems, you got a serious personality disorder, but we're gonna work on this depression because that makes sense because that's something that everybody sees is bad, and it's, it's kind of coming at you, and we can work on it and fix it. And then, and now the problem will be when his depression gets better, and then he'll be, "No, why is everything still a mess? So you didn't really do anything for me. It was there really a problem?" So it's, it's a real struggle. Too real struggle.
I know clinicians that won't even see people that have this personality disorder. They won't see people that are borderline. They just don't even take them as clients just because you want to be able to say that you're successful. You don't understand. I mean, and but I would say this, I, that's a success is any improvement in the quality of their life, especially with something like this. This is a hard one. The truth, when I was in graduate school, which really not that old, but in, when I was in graduate school, there were, we were told there are no, tree, there is no treatment for personality disorder except, you know, people who were psychoanalysts said they could do long-term and introspective luck. But even that, no evidence has ever shown that's effective at all. So no treatment. Now, at least we have some treatments that have been demonstrated to be therapeutic interventions. There's no medication this person takes that makes them better. They may take medication to help their impulsive behavior, to help their depression, things like that, but nothing specifically to treat their narcissism, that aspect of it.
Alright, so tips for you. This is why you came. Is it okay? Now you're saying, "We'll see, he was wrong because my husband definitely has it." Okay. So number one, do not call them a narcissist. Okay? That never helps. It doesn't even help if you're a clinician. Okay? So it does no good to Google it, print it out, and put, "I've known women that have done it." Okay? I've never known a man to do it, but I've known women that have done it. And put it, "I know we've been that have done it with borderline," and that doesn't go well either. Print it out and put it out for them. So when they get home, they're gonna see it because remember, there's no insight. They don't, you're more the problem than they are. And so, and that's just gonna just cause a fight. So this does no good. Okay? So even if they, you know, they're eight out of eight. Okay? If you're gonna stay with them and you want to, you want to better the relationship, better it. It does no good to try to get them to have insight into the problem. This is just not one of those things. I'll see them for who they really are. Okay? You have to understand that you have likely convinced yourself at some point in time that the BS kind of grandiosity that they get put out all the time. At first, it was probably kind of endearing. He's got such big dreams and goals, and I'm just gonna be right there with him and support him. And you know, and it's just, you know, it's gonna be. And then, you know, after many years of, you know, you're working and he's staying home and playing video games and, you know, seriously, I mean, you're not barely getting by, and now you're taking care of kids and you're working and he's not doing anything and he's run your family off. It's probably not so endearing anymore. It, you got to break the spell. And you got to say to yourself, "He, these grandiose dreams he has are not legitimate. They're not dreams, they're, they're grandiosity. He's got a problem." And he is never going to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. And that the best I can hope for would be that he would get full-time employment. You have to really understand who it is that you're with. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying you could still love somebody that has dysfunction. I mean, we wouldn't love anyone, I guess, if we didn't. So, but you'd have to kind of let that, that kind of mythology kind of disappear that you've built around him.
Don't argue with them when they come to you and say, "You know, I would be, I would be the president by now if you were a better wife." There's no reason to engage that in conversation because remember, this is not a reasoned discussion that you're having with this person. This person's reality is not the reality that you live in or that I live in. They live in a different reality that's driven mainly by their lack of worth and value and, you know, and fear that they're gonna not amount to anything. Okay? And so they live in a different reality. Age them. And in some kind of discussion that turns into, when you argue, even when we argue, we try to, I'm gonna convince you that I'm right. You are a loss before it started. There is no, you, you can't be right. So don't argue. That's all I hurt. You focus on choices, yours and theirs. Okay? They're making choices, and you get to make choices. They choose to not have a job. You choose to support them. Okay? Is that okay? Are you okay with that? They have chosen to not have a job. Now, I understand that they're impaired, but we can't fix that right now. Okay? So are you gonna choose and support them? Okay? They've chosen to mistreat you, to call you names, to denigrate you in public. Are you going to be okay with that? Are you gonna allow that in front of your children? Are you gonna, do you see what I'm saying? You have to say, "Yes, he may not be the nicest guy in the world, but," and I'm not talking about abuse and a cycle of abuse and to get trapped. Now, I'm just talking about just being mistreated, kind of in a, you know, more of a, the way you're presented to others and thinks of you. Should you be in that? You have to make those choices. So you have to look at the choices you're making and the choices they're making. Okay? It's not just a matter of if they made good choices, that everything would be great because it may not be. Maybe a very dysfunctional. In fact, more often than not, it's a very dysfunctional relationship. Set clear boundaries on what you will do for them. "I will work, but I will not be able to support us fully. You will have to have a job. I will do this. I will not do that." You have to set boundaries.
Know this, like with the 40-year-old son at home that's never held a full-time job more than six months, and the parents are paying for everything for him. You know, "Well, he moved in." You know, "I remember, try to remember this last one. The guy was here, he'd moved in like two or three years earlier, you know, kind of just to kind of save some money to get back on his feet." We never been on his feet. There was no exit plan. There are no boundaries. You know, they pay for everything. So why should he not expect them to pay for everything? You know, if you just said, "Hey, move in my house, I'll pay for everything, you can live here." Heck, why not? I mean, I probably do that because I don't want to be around you all the time in your house. I'd rather my own house. But, but the thing isn't, why not? They fed you. You're gonna let me do it. Sure, I'll do it. So you gotta set boundaries. And you've got to expect them to push back. They don't like boundaries because they set the boundaries. Okay? So if they push back, get to boundary, there has to be a consequence. You know, so if you say, "I will do X, and you will do Y, and if that doesn't happen, then I'm gonna do this. This is going to happen." Well, if that, if that doesn't happen, this better happen because remember, you're just all you're doing is you're, you're rewarding negative behavior. On these are all things to keep you in the relationship. These aren't things to end a relationship. But you just have to, you have to be consistent. Oh, absolutely. It'll never stop. Constant. But you have to, you have to be firm. There may have to be an exit. I mean, this has to, may have to be. Remember that you're not at fault. It is not your fault that they have this problem. It is not your fault that they are not the CEO of Google. It is not your fault that they never became a model. It is not your fault that your, you're just not, you know, "I could have done better. I should have married her." That one. "Should have married so-and-so." You know, "She was so much prettier." So just imagine someone saying that to you, that's married to you. That's a common kind of a statement that you. Now, there's no, like, you know, when I say that, I think about how that affects you, and it kind of makes me sad. They don't care. There's no emotional processing. It is not normal. The brain doesn't work normally. Okay? Yeah, they tend to be drawn. Yeah, they tend to be drawn to kind of a dreamer, kind of, you know, what, you know, I hate to say it this way, but someone who's a little bit more suggestible, it might appear a little bit more weaker. Not that there is sort of like a predator out there, kind of. It's more like what they do is they're kind of throwing out a bunch of bait, and they're just seeing what kind of fish decides to this nibble on it. So when they're out at the bar and they're exaggerating, and they've got their phony Rolex on, and they're, you know, they're living at home with mom and dad, but they're presenting themselves as like some kind of a mover and shaker kind of here. And, and, you know, and you latch right on to that because maybe your self-worth is based more on your personal appearance and money, and not what it should be, you know, kind of a thing. And they're like, "Man, I got one now. This is perfect." Because what are they looking for? Affirmation. So you affirm them. That's all they need. That's all you need. They just need you to affirm. Now, at some point, that affirmation is gonna be, "You need to go get a job because I don't have a job. I'm home and I need stuff because I'm buying like designer clothing and stuff like that. I don't have a job." So you need to get a job. So, and when you're not getting a job, when you're not affirming me, don't you want me to be successful? You know, "I need nice clothes when I go down and I meet with those guys." So whose fault is it? You see, I didn't have a nice enough clothes. And gets support. I mean, there, there actually are, believe it or not, narcissist support groups, like for family members. But there are just regular support groups for family. We have a support group here, excuse me, a family transform, which is for people who have a mentally ill loved one, you know, in that. And there's a lots of things you've been learning there. But get support. Get counseling for yourself. I mean, work on, work on yourself. You can never necessarily make another person change. Excuse me. But you can always make yourself better and make yourself healthier and always make better choices for yourself. And that, and, and that in and of itself would improve lots of things. It's not your fault, but you're also damaged by this. So you need to make sure that you're getting the help that you need. Excuse me. I guess the narcissistic personality disorder. So I'm the guy in my throat there. But, you know, I know you get look at this, you're like, "Wait a minute, that's like one little bullet point slide. There's not a lot you can do." There's a lot of books out there, and I've looked at a lot of books that are like, you know, "The Narcissistic Family Member," or this or that. You see this one right here? That's the thing that you gotta remember the most. You read that whole book and you just do it exactly the way, and your expectations, I'm gonna do this and everything's gonna go great. It's not. It's gonna be a mess. What you're deciding is, "I am going to, I'm gonna stay in this and I'm gonna try to make it better as long as I'm not being abused or damaged." I mean, physically, kind of thing. And I'm taking care of myself emotionally. And you have to understand, it's gonna be, it's gonna be constant fight. This isn't just gonna go away. I have never seen, and I will tell you this, and I have never read of someone who had a personality disorder got treatment and did not have a personality disorder. So you can get treatment and you can be better, but it's, it's, it would it would be like, it would be like changing your eye color. I'm sorry. Go ahead. It could, yeah, absolutely. I mean, they'd see you as a threat. Now, but again, telling them that they have narcissism is, you might as well, you know, you might as well tell them that they breathe fire. I mean, they, they're not gonna say, "You're right." You know, or "You're arrogant," or whatever term you want to use for that. They're not gonna pick up on that effectively because they really don't have the insight to understand that. And then they're not connected with you emotionally. So you're showing a proper emotion where you've been damaged or hurt or sad, and you say this, and then I go, "Okay, well, maybe I don't understand. I don't agree with the term, shoes." But I see she said, "So I've heard her." That's not happening. None of that's going on. It's just like, "Why are you, why are you getting in my way here? I'm doing this for us. This is your fault that I'm not where I'm that." Will turn around that quick. So again, calling them out doesn't do a lot of good. It's just, it's really more of an issue of just, "I'm gonna set boundaries," and that's just how it's gonna be. And I'm gonna make choices, and that's just how it's gonna be. I can't imagine that a narcissistic male would ever be with a narcissistic one. I can't even see that happening. I have seen, I will tell you that I've seen a lot of, I've seen a lot of narcissistic men or antisocial men that are with borderline personality disordered women. I've seen that a lot because borderline personality, oh yeah, all that he has to completely isolate you. Absolutely. Because that, your family's part of my problem. If your family was more supportive of us, we would be doing fantastic. They don't understand how great of a deal this is. You, you know, the fact is, is they don't appreciate that I married you. You could have married that idiot that you were going out with in college. I mean, what is he now? A neurosurgeon? You know, that cut it. Seriously. If it's that kind of a, it's that kind of a thought process. No. Now, again, don't, don't misunderstand what I'm saying here because some of this stuff starts to seem to kind of overlap with like abuse. Not every abuser, domestic violent offender is narcissistic personality. So that's a whole nother phenomenon into itself. A lot of these guys, all, but not all of these guys are. You don't have to be that to to be narcissistic personality disorder. And certainly abusers will isolate their victim, but these people isolate you as well because it's all about control, control, control, control. And they have no friends. And they, you know, it's not a good life. Well, again, they don't, since they aren't able to process emotions effectively, it's just misery all the time. But then it's perceived as, "I can't get ahead because of external situations. It's not that I'm doing anything wrong. I'm doing my best. I'm working my hardest." In fact, the problem is, is that I'm working so hard and doing such a great job, these people on the outside are jealous of me, and that's why they don't want me to get ahead. So it's never, it's never perceived as, "I'm not sitting at home going, 'Wow, you know, I really wish people liked me.'" Because what it is, it's like it would be sitting at home going, "You know, I really wish people stop envying me so much." I mean, that, which is a very different kind of a thought process because there's nothing, you know, "I'm nothing but wonderful, and if people, they're the problem, they just need to stop being so jealous of me." Absolutely. A complete lack of. But they don't perceive it. They don't see that. I mean, if you sit at home and you feel worthless, then you probably have depression. If you're sitting home and you feel worthless, you don't have narcissistic personality disorder. But the reality is, if you had a narcissistic personality disorder, you really don't think you have any value, but you don't perceive it that way. So it's a complicated kind of. They don't believe, they don't believe they have any value. They don't recognize. And again, that's back to this inability to really process emotions effectively. They don't really know what it is to be happy or sad or joyful. I mean, they know what those look like and they can fake them. But in, you know, and they know, "I went to a movie, I liked it," kind of thing. But they also complained about 50 other things that go on. So, but it's, they just don't feel those emotionally. No. Yeah, you could be. I mean, we use that term descriptively in the sense like, you know, you could be purely arrogant. For instance, someone might say, "You're narcissistic," and that's a, that's. But you could have narcissistic traits. So what I would say is, let's say, you know, let's say somebody, in fact, if I was to put that down clinically, let's say I said, "You had antisocial personality disorder," so you met criteria for that with narcissistic traits. What would happen is, you would have less than five of these, but you'd probably have three or four of them. You see what I'm saying? So you're, you're showing kind of the signs of it, but you don't have enough of it to show the whole disorder or meet the criteria. So then we would describe you as having those traits, and that would be meaningful to put that down because that would be a different manifestation than someone who didn't have those traits. You know, I would say this, you cannot diagnose somebody without sitting down from you. Also, people that are in the, in the public eye, almost any person you could think of, it's famous, you could at some time act like they or feel like they have this, just because what is it? It's more arrogant than getting in front of the world on TV. Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, so, so it's not possible. But I will, I will say this, as I said before, people who have this disorder, in my experience, both in the literature and from my own personal clinical experience, are not successful. They do not rise to the level of someone who would be able to write. Well, again, it depends on how you define successful. You know, it can, it can manifest in many different ways. So I would, I would say, we know because this cuts across multiple realms. That's fact. Part of the definition, variety of context. It can't just be one context. So you, what you're asking is, could you just be really horrible in relationships and everything else would be great? You can't hide this. You know, so the guy who hit the regional manager because he's at the stock boy, he didn't have good relationships. You know, say, "Cuz he, and it can't, he can't." You know, and he goes to, he goes to school and he can't stay in class because he keeps saying how stupid the professor is, and the professor doesn't really appreciate him enough. So it just cuts across everything. Yeah, but that's different. See, that's a little bit different. These people tend to not be charismatic. So you could get into an idea of something like being psychopathic, which is different than this, and where someone is very charismatic, kind of a manipulative con artist. That's more antisocial personality disorder than it is narcissistic personality. Remember, this requires that grandiosity. And, and you don't see that in antisocial. Any social comes to you and says, "Hey, you know what? I'm an incredible computer genius, and you should invest in my company." And I know I'm not, again, credible computer genius. I just want to steal your money. Whereas the narcissist that comes and says, "I'm going to develop the greatest computer ever in the world. I have no training in computers, and I really believe that." Oh, yeah. To control the situation. Yeah. It's not real. Yeah, it's just, yeah, just to control. So because remember, I said they, they know what the emotions look like. It's like a fake, but they don't know how to fake them appropriately. They're like overly. So it's like, I realized that. I mean, they're not like, they're not, you know, intellectually disabled. I mean, they know that like friends is, you know, "I need her to support me because I don't have a job." I mean, they understand that reality. So when she says, "I'm leaving," and I see the suitcase come out, well, then I'm gonna go, "I'm crying. I'm buying flowers. I'm, I'm doing all. I made an appointment to go see the therapist. I'm doing, you know, everything that I know that I don't agree with, but, but I need the money." So really, that's just manipulating the situation. You know, but yeah, you can have that phony kind of presentation.
Alright, I wouldn't say that. She's asking, so that someone is successful. It's unlikely that person. I would say this. I'd say if someone is successful in the sense of they can, they can maintain gainful employment and a reasonable, what they expect to maintain employment. They've gone to school and been successful at whatever level they want to be successful at, and they can have healthy relationships, then you don't have a personality disorder. That's just a fact. If it's just one of those things, then you certainly have to look at it. But it's unlikely to be personality disorder because personality disorder is cut across. They, the person cannot inhibit it. It just, it just is who they are. And so I would say normally we're looking at something else. But it's not impossible. Certainly, there's undoubtedly some narcissists out there who's running a Fortune 500 company and just has horrible relationships, and somehow he or she got ahead, somehow, and I don't know how, but they did. So it's not impossible. But I would just say, if you could, I mean, I hear this thing about, "Wasn't you that's what about President Trump?" I hear that a lot. And, and, but the reality is, is that if you said, if you had ever met any of the clients that I ever worked with, you would even ask that question. Just, I mean, and I'm not saying that he is arrogant or things like that. I'm just saying they're just not even in the same universe with one another. I mean, these people are, they're a mess. They're just an absolute disaster. Okay, take one more. Lunch. You guys gonna hear? Well, if you've got all those symptoms, and you got it, I mean, that's just a fact. But I, if you've got those, I just, if you think about what those would, would cause, I just don't see how you could be successful. But successful, I'm not saying that you wouldn't necessarily have a job or, but I'm just saying you wouldn't be where you just by the definition of the disorder, you wouldn't be where you think you should be because you think you should. True. Absolutely. Absolutely. You could be using them. But normally they're not really good at that. They do it, but they're not, they're not real charismatic. You're like a con artist kind of a thing. They're not real good at it. They go and look for the weaker person. No, they can't be consistent. They can't keep you happy enough to use you long enough to get what they need. So that's the thing because they're aversive. Yeah, I think that there, you know, I think there is a hidden kind of sense of. I mean, you, you certainly, they're not, again, they're not stupid. It's not like they don't realize that they're not successful. They know they're not successful. They're just blaming you on other people. And I think that certainly there has to be moments where you wonder, "Well, maybe people really, maybe really I am unsuccessful, and people are going to realize I'm not really successful." But that only, it's fleeting at best because if you really have narcissistic personality disorder, me, again, look at the, look at the definition here. I mean, what you have to have just to meet the criteria. I mean, you don't have grandiose ideas, and those just go away. I mean, you know, now I'm not saying on Thursday that I'm gonna be the CEO of Methodist Hospital. But I never went to college, and I'm, you know, I'm driving about that. And then the next scale I know, that was wrong. You know, I mean, they might temper it to try to kind of alleviate some of the situation around them, but it's still gonna be grandiose. It's still gonna be grandiose. But I see what you're saying. I mean, I think they're, they're not, none of them are the same. I mean, they, they meet a certain criteria, but they, they're going to manifest in what they have to do. They are manipulative, and they have to be. They have to get through the day. So I got to pay my rent. I got to buy food. I've got to. So somebody's getting manipulated. You know, be that an employer, be that a wife, be that a family. Somebody. The money's got to come from somewhere. You know, and they don't do well in menial jobs because they see it as below themselves. I've worked with the guy in New Orleans, and that guy must have quit. He must have quit ten jobs in the short period of time that I worked with him. And I mean, jobs that family, friends, and family members, and people at his church wouldn't God for him to try to help his family and stuff. But he just kept quitting them because they were below him. They're below him. And, and finally, everybody just gave up on it. And his wife finally gave up on it, and she left him and married another guy and super happy now. I mean, you know, something. It just, and, and, you know, it, you know, where he is? He's still sitting on the internet in New Orleans arguing with people all night on different religious topics. That's what he does. Um, well, normally the codependent is the, is their spouse. I mean, that's, you know, you're making excuses for them. So, I mean, if you want to, if you want to, that's where you gonna find a lot of spouses where they make, that's where they go first, is that codependency support group because they don't really realize that the person is narcissistic. So they just know they're codependent, they're making a lot of excuses for, and maybe their family kind of moved them in that direction. And we have some of those here. If you'd like to come to one of those, that would be helpful. But yeah, they are, you know, the narcissistic person, if you, I mean, really, they're more like, if they're more like anything, they're more like someone with antisocial personality disorder. That's what they look like. They lie, they're manipulative, they lack empathy. You know, they're, that, that's, they just seem like a bad guy. They will push the boundaries of criminality. You know, they will steal. You know, they will do those things that they need to because they think it's appropriate because they, they don't have a. So the codependent is more of a beaten down person. You know, they're, they're trying to, they're trying to explain this mess, and they've allowed themselves to convince or convinced themselves that they're part of the problem. When in reality, they're just a victim of the problem. You know, so, and you guys to stay forever. You poor husbands. I can't even imagine. So, well, you know, again, I think that, you know, a lot of us, you know, we get married to a person that we find out several years later, we're not really married to. You know, and so, you know, borderline personality disorder women, they love to party. I mean, I'm not sorry, I'm gonna be funny. I mean, they are partiers. Usually, they're crazy, wild, fun part. I've worked with couples where the guy married, and he's like, "I didn't realize that two years in, she was still gonna be like this crazy, wild." And this is insanity. You know, and so, and she's suicidal and cutting herself and it's just. But there were traits of the disorder that actually attracted him to her. She was impulsive and crazy and, you know, and it's the same thing here. I mean, you're, you're a 21-year-old woman in college, and you meet this guy in your, you know, in your math class, and he's telling you about these grandiose dreams he has, and about how he's already been talking to this guy in Hollywood, and he's got this script written. And I don't know. I mean, most of it's probably just in his mind. But you're like, "Wow, this guy's people are drawn to him initially." Now, they're, you don't realize that they don't stay around very long, but they're, you know, that, and that's what it is. That's what you're drawn into. You're drawn into that. He may meet your family, and they don't pick up on that. It's just all BS. They may think this is, you know, looks good. You got to really look behind it. You got to really look behind it. That's why you don't get married quickly. You just don't. And that's why you don't move in together. You know, I mean, things like that's just, I mean, the data is all there. Okay? You know, you need people that live together before they get married. Doesn't the marriages don't go as well. I mean, it's just the data is all there. It's not like you don't have to look at it from a moral perspective. I mean, it's it's just a disaster. So you should not get married quickly if you're in that, if you're on that, if you're in the range of the onset of personality disorders. Why don't you just let it go for a little while, just to see? You know, and so because, you know, you're 22 years old and you're gonna marry some guy. I mean, he may just be a month away from this thing finally manifesting itself. Why don't you just go wait a year? You know, wait a year and see what that looks like. See if he really does get a job. You know, but love is blind. And that, and that really is that. That's why. So some of these things on the surface, just in the immediate presentation, can be kind of attractive. Like, even like, I'll just leave it with this. I'll let you go. So how many ladies and there are so many women in here. So weird how few guys came to this today. Shows you 70% or more are diagnosed. How many women do you know that are attracted to bad boys? Okay. So I cannot tell you how many women I've worked with that married a guy, had antisocial personality disorder, and he is a criminal and a substance user, and their life is a disaster. But when they got married, when they first met, he liked to party, and he, the boundaries, and he was always getting into fights, and he was the tough guy, and she just thought that was so cool because she's just looking for that alpha male. Well, that doesn't raise a good baby, and that doesn't keep a good job. And so now you're fought, now you're a different person three years into this with different expectations, responsibilities. The same thing with narcissism. I mean, who wouldn't, who, I mean, some of your, and here came because you just want to hear my narcissism. But who didn't meet your husband in college or after college, and, and he had all these great dreams and aspirations for, even he met you that way, and you had great reason, and that was so attractive. Like, "Wow, this guy is incredible. I want to be or it inspires me to be around." Okay, well, then you find out that's all made up. You know, so that, that's how it happens. That's how it happened. Now, you know, that's not happening with the other person. You know, if you got paranoid personality disorder, that's not attracting anybody. I mean, it's just not. That's just not. It's not tracked in any. By her, she's a temple. Those people isolate themselves. Nobody has anything to do with them. But those cluster B, you know, some of them, you know, sometimes we kind of look at that and think, "Well, hey, I like to push the boundaries. I like to get out there. I like to do fun stuff." You know. All right, well, thank you very much. You. [Music]