Chris Hodges Shares The Mentor Mindset: Building Leaders, Habits & Discipline — Rich Wilkerson—Ep 36

I I told my pastor after the fast, "I think I had an Invision." He goes, "It's God." What a beautiful idea that we all have a mental image of God, and we're all either moving towards that or or away from that, right? I don't like to work out. Those people that talk about having a runner's high and work out, like, never, never felt it once. Envious of those who actually enjoy it.

I think it's the number one area that the devil attacks is our relationships. But he's not doing that just to be a bad devil. He's doing that because all of your potential is found in your relationship connection. Every person I encounter, there's something to value in that person. And here's a famous Chris Hodges line that I love: "If you don't get better, you will criticize others who do."

Hey, it's Rich, and you're listening to the Mature Me podcast. Weekly content devoted to all things life, leadership, culture, and faith. Thank you for taking some time to tune in. Make sure you subscribe and follow us on all our social channels so you don't miss a thing. Let's listen to today's episode.

Well, hey everybody, welcome back to a brand new episode of the Mature Me podcast. My name is Rich Wilkerson Jr., and I'm so thankful that you are tuning in today. Wherever you're at in the world, we are so grateful that you'd spend some time with us. The time today that we're spending is all about you growing, becoming, maturing, becoming the leader, becoming the man, the woman God's called you to be. And we really believe the only thing more important with who you are today is who you're becoming tomorrow. And so whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on Spotify or Apple Music, do us a favor right now, at the very beginning of this episode, in faith, go ahead and like it, leave us a comment, uh, subscribe to the channel, spread the news. I cannot explain to you how much that helps. Uh, every month we continue to grow right here at Mature Me, and it wouldn't happen without your participation and your contribution. Uh, the other thing that we always mention is that every Tuesday morning, I release a little leadership email. It's free of charge. Go to RichWilkersonJr.com, and you can sign up. Tuesday mornings, what time, Julia? 6 a.m. 6:00 a.m. Fresh, hot off the press, leadership with Rich. Leadership handles to help you grow and become a better leader. Get it today.

Well, without any further ado, we are joined by a hero in my life. I do not say that lightly. He's actually my pastor, and he's probably not a stranger to you if you've, uh, engaged with anything that we're doing or Vu Church. You probably know this man. Uh, but before I give you all of his titles, his greatest titles are that he is a child of God. But, uh, he's a husband, he's a father of five, but he leads and pastors Highlands Church, one of the largest churches in America. He leads Grow Leader, which is really shaping and equipping leaders, really now all over the world. He was just in Miami getting ready to do a regional event, uh, helping pastors, business leaders grow in their leadership skills. And I really can't think of somebody who's helped me more practically in my leadership than Pastor Chris Hodges. Ladies and gentlemen, for the first, first time ever, but not the last time, all the way from Birmingham, Alabama, we have the one and the only Pastor, Bishop, Reverend, Apostle. I'm going to give you all these titles. Uh, Pastor Chris Hodges is here. And now we put the, we put the applause track. How are you, sir?

I'm great. Good to be with you. You look amazing. You're a breath of fresh air, my friend.

Well, I think that, uh, you've been putting wind in our sails from the very first moment we ever met. In fact, I was thinking as we were coming on here, where do you remember the first place you met me? 'Cause I remember the first place I met you.

Oh, my goodness. So it was love at first sight for me. Was it at a conference? It was at Hillsong conference, that's what I remember at least. I, I think you were there with one of your boys, and in the back somewhere, we started chatting, and I was like, "I love this man." Love you, my friend.

Yeah, I, I do remember that. And that was always a fun time to bring my kids to events, you know, just to expose them to what's going on in the body of Christ. In fact, uh, probably their greatest spiritual experiences happen on the road, not even in our own church. Wow. Just take them, get them out of that space, you know, that is home, and letting them experience the world. But yeah, that was, that was a special. It's kind of interesting sometimes with preachers' kids, it sort of feels like, even though we can be in the midst of great miracles and great success, sometimes we're just not even, like, in a bad way. We use sometimes a familiar spirit. Like, as, but if you grew up in something, you don't really know how to even begin to appreciate it. So it's probably a great strategic move.

Yeah, I think it's a leadership principle to, to, to always think about your change of pace or change of place will give you a change of perspective. So you always need to get out. In fact, this surprises people when I tell them, Rich, that I still study churches. I mean, we are one of the largest in the nation, but I will go to, I'll just, I'll pick three churches every year. I'm just going to go find something they do better than us. Jeez. And I'm going to learn it. And I always say, "They're better than us for now." I like that because I'm going to bring it home, and we're going to put it in our culture. And so I love, I'm kind of a church nerd, so I love studying, learning, growing. And so I still do that.

Well, it's interesting, you know, year after year, so many of us would gather and fly out to Sydney, Australia. We would lose Fourth of July. We're still a little bitter at you, Brian Houston. We gave up a lot of great Independence Days. Yeah, we did. But, you know, me going to that for probably eight or nine years, I would show up, whether I was speaking or doing something. It's funny because, uh, today you were speaking to a bunch of our leaders here in Miami, and I was giving you so much credit for the model of how we do church and how we think. But I remember in 2015, when we were launching, I would tell people, "We're trying to be a, it's like if Highlands and Hillsong had a baby, that's what we want Vu Church to be." And I think in many ways, it probably has both of those DNAs a little bit in.

I think you're right. That's really fascinating. I was thinking about that. I was like, "Oh yeah, I met you there." Yeah. And I think the two great movements that have really shaped my paradigm of ministry. That's pretty cool. That is really cool. Yeah, I like that.

Um, I, I think today, so many people know, well, they see the fruit of your work, they see the fruit of your labor. Um, every year I try to go to Grow Conference. And sitting, night one of your teaching, uh, Motion Conference, which I've been getting to speak at for many, many years. Every year, let me go ahead and correct that. You're the only speaker we invite every year. I'm like the, uh, camp counselor, you know, that is like part of the team.

No, you're, you and DC are opening night. I mean, we, we have to have you. You're part of the family. I love you so much. Yeah. But I, I, I just think that people can see you from a distance, and they see, like, so, I mean, the numbers, it's almost like these days, it's almost just hard to say the numbers because people are like, "What?" They can't even begin to fathom all that. And I want to get there because, I mean, it's your life's work, and it's ministered to so many of us. But I think it's fun, as we're talking about Mature Me and growing, like, let's go back to Chris Hodges, how we got here a little bit. Maybe just share a little bit about your story, 'cause I always love when you take some time just talking about how you grew up.

Yeah. And I think in the ways that you would say it is that you wouldn't have picked yourself. Yeah. I've loved the church literally since I can remember what church was. So I was raised in church. I was, I was literally in the nursery of a church the Sunday after I was born, and I've never had a single Sunday in my life where I've been out of the church. I mean, I've always gone. Um, I was raised Baptist, but I loved it. I didn't know God at all, but I loved the church. My parents were very, very committed members. And, uh, so when I was seven, I walked the aisle and did the Baptist, you know, tradition. And, uh, I always say that was the day I met the church, but I didn't meet God. Wow. And, but I still loved it, you know? I wasn't against anything. I, you know, I believed in God, believed in heaven, you know, all of that. But I just didn't have, I had no relationship with Jesus.

When I was 15, I got invited to a contemporary worship style church. Um, and and was the first time I ever saw Christians in love with God. I, I like to tell that part of the story because you got to think about, like, you know, what, what is, what is attractive to people? We always put so much emphasis on the message and the preacher, but I don't even remember the message or the preacher. I remember the people. I was looking around at them worshiping God and marking their Bibles and kind of into the message. I was always looking at my watch, wondering what time it was over. And it was the people in the, in the congregation that led me to Jesus, not the message or the music. And I just saw people on fire for God, and I thought, "I want that." And so at 15, I gave my life to Jesus. I thought it was a rededication, by the way, Rich. And, uh, so I, I told people, like, "I've rededicated my life." But I, I know now, knowing what I know about the Bible, that that was the really the first time I ever really got saved. And I say that to say, 'cause, J, um, when I'm, when I'm, you know, leading our congregation, we're in a predominantly churched area, I'll even use that language when I'm leading people to Jesus. And I'll say things that are not even theologically correct, like, "If you're a Christian and you don't know God," well, that's not even really possible. But it makes sense to people who grew up in a church culture, like, "Hey, I'm a Christian, I don't know God." You know? And, and thousands of people have given their life to Jesus just using that language.

It was Matthew 7, um, 21-23, that led me to the Lord. I actually led myself to the Lord in my bedroom reading the Bible. Jesus, where Jesus said, "Not everyone who calls me Lord is going to go to heaven." Which I thought, "Well, man, that's a problem 'cause that, that's what they told me to do, call him Lord." And, um, "But away from me, you're an evil doer, because I never knew you." And so I, I realized that relationship was what Christianity was really all about. And it's my life message now. That's what I preach, uh, to people, is that you can have this vibrant, real, dynamic, personal, enjoyable relationship with a very real God, very alive God. And you can enjoy, you can enjoy your Bible, you can enjoy prayer. And so, uh, I thought I was going to be the best number two guy in the world. That's what I, I started in church work when I was 20. I'm 61, so I've been doing this 41 years now. And just really wanted to make, uh, I wanted to help the vision of my pastors come, come to pass. And I think that's my gift, honestly, Rich, is that I'm really, I'm, I'm a good at executing something. I know how to get, I know how to accomplish something that, that needs to get done. That's that's my, that's I think that's my skill set, honestly, is I can, I can even take complicated things and reduce it down to everybody knows what to do and how to do it. Which is why now, that's what I do now. I try to do in the body of Christ is just bring tools and systems and, uh, to come alongside great preachers and great anointing. Let me give you some practical things that can help you actually accomplish what you're trying to do. And so, never dreamed about being a senior pastor. I was happy to be the number two guy. I was doing music, of course, all of us probably did youth at some point in our, in our ministry journey. Happy as all arc. Um, and in 1999, I went through a year of complete depression with no reason to be depressed. Wow. So I'm happily married, five fantastic kids, and a home out in the country that I built. Was a big house, but we built it, but, you know, something we wanted. And man, just, I'm just living the dream. I was paid more than I would have paid me as an associate pastor. I mean, there's no reason to be depressed, and I was. And, and so when our church started, um, the annual 21 days of prayer, we didn't come up with that. That that came from my home church, Bethany, in Baton Rouge. When we started the annual 21 days of Prayer in the year 2000, Y2K. And, um, I did, that was the first time I did a, a total complete fast. And, uh, water only. And man, I'm telling you, the clarity that I had was unbelievable. It was as if God was sitting right next to me every day, the closeness. And, uh, on day 17, I had an open vision of what is now the vantage point of our broadcast location. I saw this 2400 seat auditorium. I saw myself standing in the place where a preacher stood, and I, I didn't really, and again, I never dreamed about being a preacher or the senior pastor. And I saw myself ministering to this congregation, but didn't know what city it was in. And so in May of 2000, Tammy and I took our vacation time just to go find, find a city that we thought we could, you know, start a church. 'Cause I, I told my pastor after the fast, I said, "I think I had an Invision." He goes, "It's God." He says, "It's time for you to be a senior pastor." And I said, "What do you do?" And he said, "God will give you supernatural love for a city." Wow. And, uh, "Don't leave here until you have that." And I said, "I said, to find supernatural love for a city." He said, "You'd be willing to buy your burial plot in that city, that's how much you love it." Wow. I said, "Okay." So we took our vacation time that year, in May of 2000, and traveled to eight different cities that we thought we could buy a burial plot in, that we, because we just loved it that much. They're all in the Southeast part of America. Again, I, I have this theory that you, you minister best to your own t, of to your own testimony. Wow. And I was a, I was a, and you can do it in other ways, but, but my testimony is, I was raised in church and didn't know God. And so that can kind of characterize what people are like in the Southeast part of America. They've been in church, but don't know God. So anyway, they were all in the Southeast part of America. And long story short, everything we touched turned to gold in Birmingham. I just didn't know a, a single person. Didn't know how to plant a church. Had no money to plant the church, but, mean, so we just sold everything. I've never even told my church this part of the story. We sold everything. I had nothing. We sold every, everything that was sellable that we didn't feel like we needed. Cashed out. I didn't have much of a retirement, but cashed it out. Put everything into, uh, the launching of this church. 'Cause there were no, there were no church plant organizations. There was no one willing to help you. There was, that wasn't even in the mindset of pastors in churches, you know, to give towards somebody's church plant. So we just did it on our own. And 400 showed up in the first service. 200 came back. After that first year, we had about 600 people in our church. And, and I'm, you know, I mean, I know how to, I know how to communicate a little, and I can do this, right? I'm not trying to give false humility here, you know, like I don't, I'm just totally no skill set. I'm good at some things, right? And I can do, I can lead people into worship, and I can, I can preach a little. But my personality wasn't strong enough for it, just to be built on my personality, and I knew it. So I did, I did, I did two things. I went looking for models, and I went looking for mentors. Wow. So I looked for anybody who was doing something that worked, and I would, I would go study it, which is why I was at Hillsong. I was there studying something I knew I didn't have, which was culture. If they were good at anything, they were good at worship, and they were good at culture. And I just wanted to be in that, um, and just experience it and try to learn it. And I was behind the scenes trying to figure out, you know, is there something that's creating that other than just, you know, just God? And I, you know, want to, I want to lean on the presence of God for things, but I also wanted to learn some things. I started studying churches. I started studying how to disciple people. Studied those that baptized the most, studied those that won the most lost people, had the most attractional churches. I would learn what they were doing, and I kind of brought it all together and started implementing it into our own culture, into our own theology, you know, 'cause I, 'cause I was raised in spirit-filled charismatic style churches and had that theology and was honestly trying to see, can we win souls and be spirit-filled? And can we disciple people? And anyway, I was just, I had models and I had mentors, and all of a sudden this thing started exploding. And I like to think it wasn't based on my personality and my gifting. In fact, Highlands got pretty big, be, and people knew more about the church than than they knew about me, which honestly was my goal. Um, because I wanted something that could almost out, outlive me. I didn't want it to be around my personality. I'm not against that. I think there are some that God is uniquely gift and blessed. And, um, anyway, uh, it just started growing, man. And then in about 2011, is when, um, it's only the one of three times where God spoken to me so clearly. It felt like it's audible when he said, "Now, help churches. Help, help churches who are having trying to break growth barriers. Help them reach their potential." And since 2011, uh, we've been, uh, we now resource more than 20,000 churches, uh, to, to their discipleship courses, to their, I mean, everything from their employee handbooks to their how to train small group leaders, to how to have services that lost people love to attend and, and still feed believers. And so, anyway, this is, and I, I love the journey I'm on now, you know.

Well, it's, it's really, really fascinating. And it's good to hear because I think sometimes we can see something and hear a stat, but we can forget the story. Oh, yeah. And the story is everything. Even as I'm hearing you say that, like selling everything, it might be kind of hard to go back to that moment. But were you scared?

Oh, I was. I had to be honest with you, though, that I thought, though, that my, my home church would hire me back. I actually had these thoughts, "They'll hire me back if this doesn't work." I got some sort of a safety net. I felt like I had. And I had one, my buddy Rick Beaz, and I planted churches on the exact same day, same hour. And we actually made a deal with each other that if, if, if his worked and mine didn't, he'd hire me. And if mine worked and his didn't, I'd hire him. So you felt surrounded. And we say, "We still deal." Still on the table?

No, you never know in this world, man. Yeah. So that's beautiful.

Um, I think one of the things I really appreciate about your story, especially in the culture that we live in today, and by the way, I'm not like a sociologist. I got to be careful. I just say the culture of the world. I'm just saying the people I experience and the young people that I meet, is that it seems to me that we live like, sort of, in an instant moment. We want things right now, right this moment. But your story is not that.

I like that we're talking Mature Me because it seems like every year you grow and get bigger and get better. Even the guy that I met 13 years ago, like, you're so different in all the positive ways, let me just say that, than even who I met 12 or 13 years ago. It's like, um, there's deeper contentment, more confidence, more authority, uh, more weight on your words, better preacher, better leader. Like, that sort of, in many ways, is the hallmark of your life. But you spent decades serving another house under other people's leadership. I really look at even just our story, which is different from yours, but I'm so grateful for the eight years of serving my dad, of doing all the different jobs, even though I had vision. Uh, I'm grateful that I didn't quit in the frustration because I learned a lot. And I think it, I want to believe it built character. I got a lot of character. I still need to build, but I'm so thankful that I have that experience. And I suppose what I'm trying to get at is, I just see a lot of people who forget that we serve a God not of seconds, but a God of seasons. Mhm. And that we have to trust that his seasons are the ones that we're paying attention to. And people want things immediately and right now. Many times, I, they leave too early. Yeah. They step out too early, even stepping out without godly counsel or being surrounded by a great, you know, group of friends.

I actually love that. That you're going, "Well, yeah, I risked everything." But my home church, I was in such good relation with my senior pastor. He was blessing what I was doing. If it didn't work, he still had a role for me. And my friend over there would have hired me, right?

Talk maybe just about those years of service and your contentment being there. And maybe even just to the wider audience that's maybe at a job right now that's like, "I want to go start that business," or, "You know, my boss doesn't know what he's talking about." There's seasons to step out and to do what God's called you to do, but there's also seasons to serve and get under something.

Yeah. Of the 41 years I've been in ministry, 18, my first 18 were serving other people's visions, and was very content. And this, this will surprise you perhaps, and some people might not even believe this, but it's the absolute truth. I still tell God every Sunday, "Lord, if you want somebody else to do this, this isn't mine. I belong to you. And if, even if it means you want me to go work for somebody else, and I'm not, I'm not the lead." Wow. I'm not the leader of it. I'm happy. I belong to you. I pray that prayer every single Sunday before I walk out on the stage. And it's, and it's, it's truly is my heart. I mean, I'm, I don't have to be the guy, you know? And so I enjoyed those years, honestly, but I learned a lot. But when I got, when I became the lead pastor, I feel like I'm now reaping a lot of the, of what I seed for years. And I truly believe in that sewing and reaping principle that I think I was so faithful and so honoring, uh, to my dad, my biological dad, to my spiritual father, Larry Stockel, who still, by the way, since 15, is still my pastor. I talked to him on the phone two days ago. We, we talk every single week. He's still pastoring me. And, um, I think every pastor needs a pastor, too, by the way. And just that I'm 61, I'm still, still growing and learning. But even as I became the lead pastor, um, not everything we did worked. We went, we went through seasons of what I would call failure. I, I have always had a tremendous passion for the Great Commission. And I've always believed basically that the Great Commission is that the responsibility of the local church and of Christians is to win the lost to Jesus, to pastor people through their issues and problems, to, to disciple them, let them grow spiritually so that the church is mobilized and do it in a variety of ways, making a difference in the world around us. I think that's the Great Commission. And so I'm, I've always been trying to not only teach it, let people understand it, but it only works if people do it. So the true test of any vision is, do people understand it and actually go live it out? And we had seasons where I could not get people to take those spiritual steps. And so I had this great revelation when on, after a trip to Israel, about this, about the four cups of Passover from Exodus chapter 6, how the Great Commission that I thought began with Jesus was actually all the way back in the Old Testament when it shows the four cups that Jewish people drink during a Passover seder, that they completely align to those four steps. It was such a huge re, revelation that I came back and wrote a book on it that nobody read. They should read it. I mean, it was actually some of my worst writing ever. I'm not, I'm, I'm not really a great author, but I've written a few books. Some of them have done well. This one was horrible.

His books have done very well. Well, this one, this one, this one did not. But it was my best rev. I mean, it's like, this makes so much sense to me. I was, "Oh, I was going to lead our whole church to, we're going to be a four cups church. What cup are you in?" You know? And it was a flop. I mean, 'cause I had to explain, 'cause the cups are like sanctification, Deliverance, Redemption, and Praise. And they literally are, are, are steps in your spiritual journey that you're s, you're saved, you're delivered, you're redeemed, you find your redemptive calling, and then you live a life of fulfillment. It's all there. But every time I try to explain it, I had to explain Moses, Passover, Egypt, you know, it was just too much. And nobody was taking the steps. And again, this, you talk about the part that nobody saw, about the grind and about the process, and how we never rest on best, and we just like, "We have to get better. We have to get better. We have to get better." When nobody was taking the steps, in my frustration, I don't if I ever told you this story. In my frustration, I put together a focus group of eight people in Birmingham who were, were self-professed not Christians. They're not Christians. We, I am not a Christian. And I go to no one's church. And I told them I'd pay them $100 an hour for their time if they would help me just come up with language they could understand. I'm not even asking you to do it. I'm just asking you to un, help me to come up with what I call street language, yeah, to what I believe God wants for people's lives. And they all came in, not hostile toward the gospel, but definitely not open. I said, "But will you just help me?" And I explained to them what I think the Great Commission is, and then I explained them the whole four cup story. It took me 45 minutes just to explain. And they were all, they, they were into it. And I said, "And I believe God has always wanted this for people, but it's hard words like sanctification, and then creepy words for some people, Deliverance." You know, like they, they picture themselves, you know, their head spinning, their eyes turning red or something, yeah, the exorcism. And they just, yeah, they weren't into it. I said, "What would you have understood?" And those four completely lost, far from God people came up with: "No God, Find Freedom, Discover Purpose, Make a Difference." We didn't come up with that. The Growth Track. That, that they, one of them even said, "We don't want to grow your church, but if he's real, I sure would like to know him. I want to know God. We're not, we're not thinking about you. You guys always think about church. We just like, if there's a God, if he is real, I'd love to know him." And Deliverance was too big of a word. So they said, "But we all have areas of our life. Everybody has an area of their life where they'd love to have some freedom in it." And that is true, by the way. Everybody has an area of their life. Everybody that if it was in their life, their life would be better. And Jesus, of course, came not just to save you, but he came to help you find freedom from that addiction, that habit, that wound, whatever it is. Beautiful. But then also that we, again, Redemption is a hard word. It's a Christian word, and it means to buy back or to put you back to your original intent. That's what the word actually means. Too hard for people far from God. So they came up with, "Discover Your Purpose." Of course, we know it's a God-given purpose. It's Psalm 139, that all the days ordained for you to are written in his book before one of them ever came to be, that God has a plan for your life. And then, but then, and then finally, "Make a Difference," which you can, you can never do by yourself. You have to do it with a group of people. And they came with those four phrases, and the whole thing took off. And that's, so all of a sudden now, because language creates culture, and language creates clarity. And that's why we have, so we worked hard. We were failing doing the right thing, but in a way that wasn't working. It's one of the parts of the story no one knows about Highlands. And then the whole thing took off. And we started creating experiences where people could just know God, groups where people could find freedom, a growth track where people could discover their purpose, and a Dream Team, uh, servant leaders that, that are making a difference together. And man, the thing exploded.

That's crazy that you got non-believers in a room and said, "Help me with the language of how I can represent these truths to everyday people." There's a whole leadership lesson just in that.

Totally, totally. That they don't be satisfied with just what your understanding of it is. My go, the goal wasn't for me to understand it. I'd already taken those steps. I needed the people who hadn't taken the steps yet. You just wrote a book on the Passover and you're getting excited about all four cups that nobody knows about. Exactly. And so, but I also had the, I don't know if courage is the right word. It probably wasn't courage, it was just wisdom to like, "Okay, there's a better way." I didn't like, "Oh no, no, this is my revelation. I'm just going to keep beating this horse until it works." I think it's humility to say, "What, what am I missing here? What's the blind spot?" And sometimes we can even find wisdom from a person who doesn't know the way yet. And I think that takes a real leader.

It's funny, as you're talking about four cups, years ago I heard Beth Moore at a conference, and she had all this revelation, and she was preaching on the Passover supper, and she was trying to teach these college students, and so she's like, "Cup one, cup." I remember, I remember she goes, "This is the first time that the lamb was on the table, and the lamb was at the table." I said, "Man, I want to go Pentecostal on Beth Moore right now." Because she's preaching, she's preaching, you know, what I love about you, I mean, you already know this about yourself, but it's what you say you do. Like, you take complicated deep truths and make them very, very simple. Uh, you create powerful lists, handles, but it all comes, like, the Growth Track is found in the book of Exodus. It's all over the Old Testament. It's, it's the mission that, and what God has put on the earth. I really think the Catholic Church should hire you because, man, you could, you could bring some purpose to that, those old naves and those cathedrals. You'd have a field day in all those Stations of the Cross. You should, they would, you would, you would help them grow tremendously. Uh, one of my things about you that I love, my wife is from Louisiana, Shreveport, Louisiana. Go Tigers. And so Louisiana is, uh, now in my kids' blood. And what's up with Louisiana? Some of the greatest men of God and women of God. But I'm serious. Like, is there anything that you can, like, pinpoint? I just, so many amazing, amazing men of God. Have you ever thought this thing? Do you have any words you can put towards this? Because we could start naming people, because they don't even believe me right now. But it goes way back, even from Jimmy Swaggart to Hager to Larry Stockdale to Denny Duron to Chris Hodges. Just name after name after name. What's up?

So, D. Wilkerson, I don't know. I don't know. But I, but I do know this, is that it's one of the most unique places in the country, relationally. These people, it's the number one place in America where people are loyal to their neighbors and will not move away from their family. So they're very committed. And I think there's something to that, because I think God builds his kingdom relationally. I think it's the, I think it's the number one area that the devil attacks is our relationships. But he's not doing that just to be a bad devil. He's doing that because all of your potential is found in your relational connections. And so I, I, I think there's something to the loyalty. We're very, very loyal to each other. Uh, we will, you know, we always say about Cajuns, that they'll, they'll either kill you or take a bullet for you, you know, kind of a deal. They're very passionate, very, very passionate people. And I think that's it, honestly. I mean, in, in my own natural mind, that's the only thing I've ever been able to come up with to explain it. But I think there's something to that.

When you go back to Pastor Larry, because I can see so many men of God that have come out of that ministry that we touched from there. Um, anything about that style of leadership or that place in particular, that environment that we, again, it's very, it's a very unique. So what people don't know about South Louisiana, especially, is that, uh, almost everybody's a mix of someone else. So even like the Creole culture and the Cajun culture is, is a mix of everyone there. I, I saw less racism and prejudice in that area than any place I've ever been. Wow. And I just think there's something to, I don't know, I don't know. It's just very, very unique. But spiritually, I think with that comes a humility, a dependence upon prayer. Yeah. I mean, what I learned from my pastor, what I think if you're going to let me point to something, just to my local church, my home church, it'd be, it'd be prayer. Yeah. I mean, I watch Pastor Larry show up at four o'clock. In fact, I, uh, every Sunday morning, I, I used to sneak in the auditorium at 4:00 in the morning on a Sunday, just to watch what a man can do for three hours with God. Had no clue. And I, I, it was amazing. I mean, and it back when he was leading the church, it's called Bethany Church now, but he, it was called Bethany World Prayer Center. And man, we, it's where I, I, I learned intimacy with God and being a carrier of the presence of God, and how God will make you better than yourself. And which, honestly, I felt like I needed, uh, and in my life story, Rich, is that I was able to go so far. I'm pretty good at a few things, but God's made me so much better than I really am.

It's beautiful. I tell people when they see what, what has happened at Highlands or Highlands College, I always say, "We're not this good." I know it looks good, but we're not this good. And if you make me point it back to one thing, it would be, um, it would be prayer.

The thing about when I think about Chris Hodges and Highlands is prayer, the presence of God, disciplined in the spiritual realm, living wholly set apart lives, yet in the same breath, so much fun. Kind of don't take yourselves too seriously. Louisiana is kind of a fun culture and funny people. Uh, we always say, "If you can't have fun with a person from Louisiana, it's your fault." [Laughter] We, we, we got to do a Buro moment. Yeah. They don't even, I don't know if Mature even knows what Buro is, but I think that those are my favorite. We'll sit around sometimes with this guy, and we'll start telling these Buro jokes. I don't even know where he gets these jokes. I've never yet to ask him. But you got to tell a Buro joke on on Mature Me. Something clean, something that doesn't get canceled.

I'm going through the list right now to find something. So my favorite of all time, who he is, first of all, Buro is, is probably the most common last name in South Louisiana. So it's like Smith. And then Tibido, like Jones. I mean, there's more Buros and Tibidos as last names. So, so they're just your stereotypical Cajun. But my favorite, I don't know if you'll think this is funny, but this is my favorite of all, all time, is that Buro had this sign in his front yard that said, "Talking dog for sale." So Tibido pulls over, and he sees the sign. He goes, "Man, what that talking dog is?" Eh? And Buro says, "Well, he's out in the backyard." He said, "Well, can I go see?" He says, "Sure." So Tibido goes in the backyard and he sees the dog. And he says, "Are you the talking dog?" And the dog says, "I sure am." He goes, "Oh my goodness, this is amazing." Dog said, "That ain't nothing. I actually have traveled the whole world with the military to bring back intelligence information, and I've saved many lives, and I've won many wars." And Tibido goes, "My goodness, that's, that's amazing." So he goes back in the front yard. Says, "Buro, how much you want for that dog?" He said, "$5." He said, "Why just $5?" He said, "'Cause he's a liar. He ain't never left the backyard, but he can talk." Anyway, I don't know why that's so funny to me, but it gets me good.

I like them. I like them. But they're, they're, they're dumb little jokes.

No, they're the best. But sometimes, sometimes we'll get you on a roll. Yeah. On a great night at a dinner, and he will go, and he will, we'll be crying. I used to do stand-up. I could do 45 minutes, 50 minutes without notes. I mean, just go.

We got to get you back into that, man. We got to get you back into that. Hey, I'm sorry to interrupt. I know we're having a great conversation, but I want to talk to you about something really important to me, especially if you're a pastor listening right now to the Mature Me podcast. Listen, after almost 20 years in ministry, I know what it means to be in the trenches, day in and day out, of building the church. And what I have learned is that lasting alone, well, it's impossible. The only way you're going to sustain and the only way you're going to grow is you've got to get around like-minded leaders. That's why we're hosting our Vu Friends and Family Pastors Assembly, January 2025 in Miami. It's a two-day gathering of training and impartation designed for you, the leader, the pastor, to leave with practical and spiritual handles. Last year, we had close to 500 pastors and leaders in the room alone, and I just know that this year is going to be even better. I want you to get registered right now. If you're a pastor, bring your team, bring your spouse. Be with us in Miami. Vu Church. Go to pastorsassembly.com. Let's get back to the [Music] combo.

Um, I'm asking something that because I really do think that when I think about the House Highlands, I think about your life. I don't know if you like the word balance. I don't always love that word balance, but I'm just using it for the sake of. Yeah, it's not just leading a church, it's, it's leading your wife and your kids. There's so much always is going on in your life. I suppose like, how do you determine those rhythms and figure some of that stuff out? You have five kids, and can you just speak to us a little bit about that around just the family dynamics as a leader and as a pastor, and what it's been like?

Well, I have a little unfair advantage because I'm by nature disciplined. Like I could have been in the military. I love order, I love schedules, I love lists. I always jokingly say, "If I had a list of everything I like, list would be at the top of the list." I mean, like, I love lists. And love, I, I organize my life. That's fun to me. I'm very disciplined. I'm a morning person. Uh, most people that are morning people, you know, start off for, you know, just their days in order. I was raised in a disp, spiritually disciplined culture. I mean, we spent time with God with a standard of spending at least an hour with God every day, just because Jesus said, "Could you not tarry with me one hour?" Um, I mean, I was taught into these. I appreciate the spiritual disciplines. I mean, fasting. I've been fasting since I was 19 years old, starting every year with 21 days of prayer and fasting. And talk about a discipline because your body is screaming at you, and you're having to tell it no, "I'm going after God." I mean, it's hard to push the plate away. Yeah. For 21 days. And we did, you know, pretty, we were, we were all able to do the type of fast we wanted to do, but, but we all did it pretty strictly, not religiously strict, but just, man, we, we really want to get close to God that much. You weren't giving up Netflix for 4 days. No, sir. Like, you know, fasting, it's not even fasting, by the way. It's things changed quite a bit. Totally. But I mean, it was like, we pushed the plate away. We didn't eat, yeah, for 21 days. And man, your body is yelling at you. And I, I have this theory, too, by the way, if you want to develop disciplines, you have to go through seasons where your body screams at you, and you tell it no. You, you master your flesh, as the book of Romans says, you don't want sin to be your master. And so there are disciplines going do that. So the, my unfair advantage to answer your question is, is that that's easier for me than most people 'cause I'm kind of wired that way. So, so when I set, for example, that Tammy and I are going to have a date night once a week, then I, I can say with honesty, for 38 years, wow, of marriage, we, we always sit across the table once a week, and I've honored that. I, you know, to have times with our family, we just didn't give that time away, yeah, at all. Even when someone asked me to travel, if it was on one of

Our family nights, even though they would always say yes, and I knew they would, and I knew I was going to travel to this place, I still ask my kids, "Hey, someone's invited me to minister this Thursday night. Can we move our family night to Tuesday night?" Just as a, as a show of respect, you know, to them. But it just, so I've lived that kind of ordered life. I've been reading the One Year Bible. I don't even know what year the One Year Bible started. I think I was reading it the first year that it ever came out. And I mean, I got up this morning, um, very, very early, and it's the first thing that I did was read the One Year Bible. And just, you know, so I, so I keep my life in balance. To answer your question, I think all, all balance and all keeping things healthy is how you start. All's well that begins well. It's not all's well that ends well. And I tell leaders that to master your mornings. The more it's kind of like a tithe. There's something about when we give that first to God, how it blesses the rest. Beautiful. Same thing with your time. Beautiful. Same thing with your family. It's, it's what you do first. And so I've always given that first moments of my day to God. I, I take a moment every morning, and I think through my day. I even reduce my day down to three of the three most important tasks that where I could call the day a success. And I focus on those and I pray for those, just three things, even though I'm going to do way more than those three things. But it just gives me focus for my life. And, and then finally, you just have to learn how to say no. I read somewhere in a great book, I think it's called, um, oh, Essentialism. And it's, I think the byline is called "The Disciplined Pursuit of Less." And, um, and one of the great quotes in there is that people who learn how to say no will trade popularity for respect. And that's, and that's a bar. Wow. Yeah. So just, I'm saying no to the right things, saying yes to the right things. Um, so anyway, but thank you. I, I have that. I want to say that I still have areas that, that need a lot more discipline. But all of us. Yeah. I think it was Steve Jobs who said that he was not, he was most proud of his company not for what they had done, but for what they had not done. Right. His ability to say no is what gave him such a freedom to stay so focused and what they are doing. Um, these days, it's, it's really, really clear, at least in my neck of the woods, but in the body of Christ, that you, uh, take on a role of spiritual father for so many. But long before you're just even spiritual father, you're a literal dad. You have five kids, which I think in 2024 is like 25 kids. Uh, back in the '80s or something, maybe. Talk to us a little about parenting, because all of your kids who've all gone through different situations and have their own journeys and still continue to become, but they love you. Uh, I know all of your kids, they do love the church, they, they love the Lord. What are some things that you can just even think about that you got right, that you didn't get right, that would help people that are listening right now? I feel like I'm a young parent, and I sense so many parents are afraid these days. I know at times I can have that sense of, you know, being overtaken by fear. How am I raising these kids? And the decisions I'm making, how's this going to affect them? Even in leadership, anything you can speak into regarding that category?

Yeah, I mean, we, we are kind of on the other side. They're all grown and have their own children, and they all do love God with all their heart. All of them are involved in ministry in some form or another. And, um, and they all, we're a very, very close-knit family. I think as I look back, I did a lot of things wrong. By the way, every time I was absent, it cost me. I, I'll, I'll say that. Wow. Anytime I was absent, it always cost me. Wow. And so you want to stay very present with your kids. I'll even say it more practically, if you ever get to a point where they're not talking to you, you're already in trouble. Wow. So they don't have to be perfect, but they have to keep talking. Wow. So that's, so we, so I would always try to create environments where they were talking about what they were going through, good or bad. And so, but if they are not talking to you, they're talking to someone else, and they're listening to other, other voices, and you're in trouble when that happens, 'cause I needed to be, and God needed to be the primary voice in their life. And so I try to maintain relationship above anything else.

Did you know that, or you learned that? I had to learn that. Okay. I had to. I was watching. I did the same thing that you're doing. I asked a lot of people, you know, how did you do that? When I see a, a guy have great, or a gal have great kids, I'm like, okay, tell me your secret. And, and there is no such thing as really quality time. It's only quantity. Wow. It's spending time with them. They, to, to be with them. And so when it came to the church, you know, wow, most of us know that kids, a lot of times can despise the church, and they're not really into the things of God. And, um, and but the ones that I saw that were successful at it didn't compartmentalize their life into two lives, like a family life and a church life. They just had a life. They integrated it as much as possible. And I've watched you and Don Sheree do this where you just, I, I brought my kids with me. They were in the green rooms. They were, I took every one of them, one at a time, to the Hillsong conference in Australia. They, they, and they, I took all, they all went on missions trips. They, they got to experience. When I was building a sermon, I would, "Hey Michael, run down here, I got, help me with this one thought." And they, so I tried to integrate them into the church life. And then, then never, ever, ever said one negative thing about God or, or, or his church. Ever. We're not, this is not going to be a forum where we talk about the people in the church or, man, we're just, we're always grateful for our love and respect the church and Jesus's bride. And so, very disciplined to do that. We're not, not bringing the garbage, um, home and in front of them. That, that happens. And honestly, I don't, this even when garbage happens, I refuse to see it that way. These are precious people going through things. And, you know, and so, anyway, I think those were some of the things that we did well. And my favorite line that I've, I, when I'm teaching, uh, parents about their children is that you got to remove the, this expectation of perfection. Yeah. Good. You just have to, because they have to have the freedom. They have to, they're going to fail. So it's, it's your attitude toward them when they fail that I think determines the course of their life. And I just disciplined myself every time they failed by telling them, "I know this is what you did, but that is not who you are. And let me just tell you who you are. And nobody believes in you more than me." I kept saying that, "Nobody believes in you more than me." And I know you did this, but, and you, you'll have to pay the consequence of that, but you need to know, I, I'm not, I don't feel one bit different about you. Nothing about this can make me change how much I love, value, and see your potential. You're going to do great things for God." Literally. And my wife can tell you this, I would, I would always try to be in the kitchen when they were, when they were walking out to go to school. She would often times be bringing them to school, and I said the same thing to them every time as they walked out, "You're a leader, not a follower. Don't let the world change you. You go change the world." Come on. And just kept, just speaking faith inside of them. And, and we've had messy stories, but that have all come back to their potential. And I think it's because they know how I, I view them and how God views them. "Train up a child in the way that he or she should go, and when they are old, they will not depart from that." That's right. The question is, what do we train them in, right? 'Cause when you get old, you're coming back to whatever that thing. And I just didn't, I was never going to be negative. And I, I wasn't going to be, you know, a dad that was hard on them. Um, and I, and I said, and this, I just said to the Lord, I didn't even tell them that. I'll, I'll determine our success based on that. When they don't have to come to our house, so they're out of the house, will they still want to come over the house? I love that. And, and they're over over four, five, six nights a week. I mean, over a little too much. They really are. We're like, "Oh guys, it's getting a little late now. Get out here." So it's a joy. They're, they're our best friends now. I don't, my social life is predominantly my kids and my grandkids now.

Well, we're weeks away from having our fourth, and I'm way, way, way behind you. So, uh, it's good for me to hear that vision that one day we'll be best friends. Right now, we're just trying to get them to go to bed on time and wake them up. But I think that's something you said that's really brilliant or really, um, which is, uh, uh, talks about the most important thing you think about is what you think about when you think about God. And what a beautiful idea that we all have a mental image of God, and we're all either moving towards that or, or away from that, right? And so what you said is, when they did make a mistake, what was my response? And I think that's a really powerful insight for us as, as parents, because I think sometimes we want our kids to be patient, but then we act impatient. We want our kids to have the joy of the Lord, but then we're never joyful. And I think it's in those moments of weakness and pain and when we do mess up, our response so gets to showcase who God the Father is. Yeah. And I just firmly believe, uh, maybe this is strong language. I think every person on the planet, to some degree, has some degree, maybe this is a strong word, but like a father wound, or something, because our first idea of who our heavenly Father is, our earthly dad. And guess what? Ain't none of us the God the Father. So we have our own weaknesses. But we serve a God who's so good that our earthly father is, um, not a reflection of God the Father. Our God, God the Father is the perfection of our earthly father. And so, what, what great joy we have that, you know, He, He fills in the gap. You're exactly right. And I think when I look at your life, you've grown so much. You continue to grow. It seems like you continue. You talked about earlier, mentors and models. Like, even right now, you still have mentors in your life. How do you keep finding mentors when you have a church that has 100,000 people showing up? You're a New York Times bestseller. You've got a college that continues to go. You give away tens and tens and tens of millions of dollars. Like, how do you find anything? You can teach us about reaching up and trying to continue to put yourself in a, in a better room, or a bigger room, or a growing room?

Well, you never get, need to get to a place where there's not someone speaking into your life. I don't care how old you get, 'cause, because we all have blind spots. And I have to come to the realization that I still have blind spots. I, I cannot see right now. I can't see what's behind me, 'cause I have eyes on one side of my body. But there is something going on behind me. And the question is, who is watching out for that part? And so I invite people into that space. I, and I always have. And I, so I'm still have a very close, open relationship with my pastor. I have a very close, open relationship with, with, I think everybody needs people over you, but you also need peer-level people who can be honest with you. So I have about three people that we have that level relationship. There's nothing off-limits for you to say about my life. Nothing. If you see it, say it. Your job is to keep me out of the newspaper unless I took out the ad, you know what I'm saying? It's just like, and watch over my soul and be honest with me about that. And I've invited. You have to invite that, uh, from those people. Um, but also mentors, people that I'm, that I, that I look up to. And, and, and honestly, I think you get to a certain point where mentors don't naturally come to you. So you have to pursue them. So you have to say, "Grow me in this area." I, I went to John Maxwell years ago and said, "You're, you're one of the best authors in the world. I mean, you've written 90 books, sold 40 million copies. Yeah. So like, you know what you're doing. Me, mentor me in this. I'm writing a book right now." And I, I submit, I've submitted every part of the manuscript, the table of contents, the, the thought processes to John, and he's making me better. But you have to invite that, um, into your life. And I just think, I don't know, I don't know why people don't do that. To me, it's fun. But the, but the secret is, I think sometimes we put too much pressure on the person speaking into your life, like they're going to do all the work. And I think, let it be on the protégé. Let it be on me to come prepared. That if I get the chance to have lunch with John, I keep a, a list of running questions for him. I could show you a file right now on my notes and on my phone of next time I with John, I want to ask him. And I'm prepared. And he loves that. He, he, he wants to pour more into me because he knows I'm the most prepared for when we get together. And I would love to put that into the heart of the people listening to this podcast, like, find people. Think, "Oh, they don't want to spend time with me." If you're that prepared, I have a pastor that I'm coaching right now. Um, he just, he's just asked me, "Would you coach me through this next season of our church?" And I'm, and I'm doing that. But this brother is prepared. Well, you're that guy, by the way. Let me just tell, I mean, you, you, you guys may not know this about Rich Wilkerson Jr. He's got all this, you got all this talent and all this personality, and that's the part people see. Dude, you're a church builder. And when you text me on a Monday, you can always tell the people who really love building the church because they're ready to start working on it on Monday. You text me like, "Hey, I got six questions. Find me 30 minutes." And, and, and, and you're ready. Like, you, you come to the table prepared. That's what I'm talking about. And by the way, that's what makes you a great discipler is that you're a great disciple. You know, and you're, you're still learning and growing. Anyway, I know, I don't know if I answered your question. I found myself rabbit trailing there a little bit.

No, you're not rabbit trailing at all. I think you're leaning into something that's really important because I meet some people, go, "Will you mentor me? I need a mentor." And it's like, the mentor will appear when the student is ready. Exactly. And one of the ways a student is ready is when you come and prepare with what it is that you're trying to solve, asking questions. People that don't ask questions, I'm just like, "I don't know how you're going to make it in life because you've already put a lid on yourself." By not asking questions, your silence is indicating to me that you don't need any help, that you don't need to grow. I don't care who I'm speaking, if I'm going somewhere else, I want to learn. And I've learned that as you ask questions, you actually add value to the person you're speaking to. Absolutely. This is funny. I, I, no names, of course, ever, but someone recently who is a pastor who's maybe around my age, who's going through a difficult time of transition, and we had a meal together. As we finished the meal, there were some other people say, "Hey, you know, can we get coffee, you know, the next morning?" But I was like, "We just had the meal." And I said, "Well, man, I'm sorry, we just, I can't do coffee tomorrow." You know, we just had a meal. He's like, "Okay." I was like, "But call me anytime." He's like, "Yeah, yeah." And so he then proceeded to try to get me on the phone. And we kind of went through the, you know, he texted me quite a few times on the phone. We finally got on the phone. "Hey, man, what's going on?" And we talked for, um, I don't know, 20 minutes. And in the 20 minutes, I don't know why we were on the phone to the point we kind of came to the end conversation. "Well, that was good chatting, man. And, yeah, God bless." And I'm not even putting him down. I'm just going, "I don't know what the purpose." I think there's something that you need, but you don't even know how to ask, per se. I can't ask for you, right? And that's a word because what I've learned about God is that rarely does he do the miracle we don't ask for, right? There's, we've got to learn how to speak up. We've got to learn how to communicate. And if you're looking for a mentor today, don't just walk up to someone and say, "Can you mentor me?" Start by, when you get around them, in the 10 minutes that you're having a moment, that you've got something prepared, you have a way to add value to their life. And then you actually have a way to implement what is they've taught you. I feel like as I go back in our relationship, I didn't come up to Birmingham and you teach me the growth track. Go, "That was cool. We're going to do something else." Which, by the way, I've seen so many now. We're in some insider stuff. Everyone's like, "What are you talking about?" But the model of discipleship you guys have created, I've watched so many people go, "You know what? I got a better way." We'll make it one week. We'll make it, we'll make it the fifth Sunday. All sorts of different iterations. And I know God speaks to people. But I just came and said, "Oh, y'all do, you guys pray 21 days twice a year? We'll do that. Oh, you guys do four steps of the growth track? I know it doesn't work in an urban setting. It doesn't. It sure works in Dade County. We, we, we've been able to do it." And so I think with that one, it's like, yeah, we didn't just come and, um, ask you questions, but hopefully, we then implemented the strategies or the things that you said. And maybe we'll edit this out because you won't like it, but some people are an askhole. Maybe we can't have them on there. But you ask a question, you ask a question, and then it's like, "Oh, we gave you the answer, but there's a hole. It just, you didn't, you didn't implement." So when you, when you're that person, when you constantly ask a question, you don't, you don't implement. So there's a couple attitudes that are very important. One is, you have to truly believe that everybody can teach you something. So go mine the gold. There's gold somewhere in that church. And I still, regardless of the size of the church, I always feel like if you give me a few hours, I'll go find something that this church does better than we do it. And I always say, "For now," because we're going to take it home, we're going to get better, and we're going to, they'll come learn it from me next year, right? Because I'm going to perfect, I'm going to try to perfect it. But it's an attitude. Uh, and the second thing is, is what I call curious intelligence. It's just, I just would love to know. And when I was, when I was an associate pastor for those 18 years, I had, I had jobs and responsibilities. It was youth and music. That's the two things that I did. But I, but I just decided one day that I was going to go learn how to do every aspect of church. So I went on a Monday and I watched. I said, "Can I just sit in here where you guys count the offering from Sunday? I just love to know what that process is." And they allowed me, and I learned that part of church. I asked if I could sit in a counseling session. I got mostly no's there, but I got one yes where this couple was going through something. And while they allowed this, this brat, you know, associate pastor to sit in on their marriage issue, but I got to watch how a pastor ministers to someone in a counseling setting because I had curious intelligence. I went to the soundboard guy, which that thing still to this day looks like, you know, you need a, something from Star Wars. Oh my God. What is, what do all these buttons do? You are, you know, what, you could, you could get sick one day. At least teach me how to turn this on and how to play music out of it. And I had curious intelligence. And so now my, my breadth of, of, wi, of wisdom and knowledge about the church is why, but only because I went looking for it. Beautiful. And that's what I love to, when I'm teaching young leaders, especially, don't get so focused on, with my gifts, my talent, my calling, my little narrow lane. Especially the younger you are, have more of a broader curious intelligence. Then just watch what God does. Had no clue that I would end up leading a church, amen, one day. But, um, but my experience and my knowledge was, was, was pretty big because of that, that curiosity that I had. I have a firm belief that I can learn something from every person I meet. Every, not everybody does, is what I'm trying to say. Totally. They're just, they just, they get very content with their. Yeah, I know. I'm like, every person I encounter, there's something to, there's value in that person. And here's a famous Chris Hodges line that I love. If you don't get better, you will criticize others who do. That's right. And I just want to be a person. I'm not competing with anybody else, but I am benchmarking off my own life. And I do want to be a good steward of what God's put inside of me. And I wake up every day with a fire to grow, to become more. Not just grow yourself, too. Because healthy things grow. You know, people, people, some, some don't think I'm telling the truth, but this is the absolute truth, Richie, that we, I've never set a numerical goal for Church of the Highlands. We've only had a better goal, a growth goal. Because I think healthy things grow. So we've never worried about getting bigger. We've only worried about getting better. Because things that get better get bigger. Our first staff value is, "Make it better. Make it better. Grow." People have seen the success of your church, and people have seen the success of your life. People, um, are aware of you as a public personality, although I don't think you like that term at all. But you're a very, very well-known believer. You're very, very influential. You're a pastor to pastors. And you said something earlier, you know, "I've got some friends in my life that your job is to keep me out of the papers." But, uh, in the last 10 years in particular, you've been in the papers before. You've been publicly criticized and ridiculed. And you've gone through relationship pain, some much private that we wouldn't know about, but some even public where you've had to deal with criticism or fallout. Even in 2020, so many people came against you. And is there anything, without as much as you, you can share about pain in leadership, criticism in leadership, and how you don't quit? We're looking around the body of Christ today, and I'm not trying to put you on some kind of pedestal that makes you feel uncomfortable, but I think so many are afraid as we see so many incredible men of God who've in some ways fallen from grace. And we don't criticize or put anyone down, right? What can you share that we can be privy to towards your mindset, towards your spirit man, how you've navigated those waters, and how you continued to navigate those waters? I know it's heavy and deep, but, yeah.

Well, well, it, it, it's actually bigger than people realize. There were, there were some, there were some private things going on too with my mom, who ended up having to put in memory care in 2020, with other members of my family who were going through different things. So like, it was, it was, it was a very, very tough season. Um, there were two things that sustained me in the middle of it. First of all, and I, I don't, I don't want this to come across arrogant or anything, but I know who I am. Yeah. Come on. So I slept good at night, knowing that the things that were being said about me weren't true. You only, you only don't sleep at night whenever they actually are true that you've been discovered. And so I actually slept very well at night. Wow. Because I know, I know who I am. And I knew if I would just stay steady, truth would come out. And it did. And, and honestly, everything that was said has already been recanted and totally and restored, by the way, too, with people in our city and things like that. Uh, but the two things that sustained me, and I'm want to say it kind of in a shocking way. The first one, and that is, I don't get to make the choice of whether to quit or not, 'cause I didn't call me. I don't belong to me. And so I've never seen it as my option, like, "What do I want to do next?" Well, that's not, that's not for me to decide. You know, I truly believe, and I'm not trying to sound super spiritual, but I've been bought with a price, and I belong to God. And, and so, and even if that is, that, even if the journey is uncomfortable or, or not so great, I mean, His army, I'm His soldier. And even if I die on the front lines, that's, that's up to my commanding officer, not to me. You know? So I've really, I've really kind of crossed that, that bridge in my mind. Yeah. Um, because I think what happens for, for some people, not a lot, but that ministry's become a career choice, and something that we actually enjoy. I'm not against enjoying it, but now I really enjoy it. So now we, we see it through that lens. And really, I'm called. Yep. I belong to God. So that's the first thing that sustained me. In fact, in 2020, I went back to this exact place where God called me to Birmingham. Stood in the exact spot. It was this on this little outdoor patio, uh, off of a Starbucks that overlooks, you've seen it, that six-lane highway, the busiest street in the whole state of Alabama, is where God spoke to me and said, "You're going to pastor the people down in that traffic jam." And so I went back and I re-up. So this is where you called me, and until you called me to something else, pain or whatever, regardless of what the, what happens, I belong to you. I'm just letting you know, I'm, I'm still in. I'm still in your army. And so, and I had to do that. I had to physically do that for me. Second thing is my relationships. And I've already mentioned this, I would not have made it without the people around me, um, who just rallied and said, "Man, we got your back. We're holding your arms up. We're with you all the way." The loyalty that I talked about with the people from Louisiana, I saw all that in all of my closest friends. And, uh, and it sustained the fire out of me to know that I was not alone. And one of the casualties of leadership that I don't like that happens all the time is that we think the higher up we go, like, "It's lonely at the top." Well, it doesn't have to be. Yeah. Come on. And so, and what happens that when you're lonely is you get alone in your thoughts. And when you get alone in your thoughts, you do what psychologists call ruminating. And it's where you take distress and you'll heighten it. So your distress is real, but now you're taking it to a place that's not real. It's more than what you think. And you lose perspective. And you think everybody's against you. And they're not. They're not even thinking about you, truly. But you think they are. And it's a very dangerous place to be alone in your thoughts. In fact, anybody listening who's currently alone in their thoughts, I'll just say it this way, you're already kind of in trouble. You, you'll always stay as sick as your secrets in your lonely places. And so, you know, the psalmist David said, you know, "When I was feeling my anguish and all my despair, and then I said to myself, I will confess." And James 5:16, "Confess your faults," you know, not just to God, but one to another, then you'll be healed. There's something about just, you can't get alone in all that place. And, and that's the thing that sustained me. I didn't, I knew enough after 40 years of ministry not, not to go there. And I just was open with my friends, and it rescued me. It, it made it where I was able to endure through that season.

I recall a funny story, I think I heard you tell one time, and I'll kind of paraphrase it, but I think maybe you were having a tough day, and you called your friend Rick Bazette, and then maybe he started telling you about his tough day. Yeah. And by the end of it, you're like, "Oh, your day is way worse than mine." Or something like that, where it was like, "And when he told me about his tough day, I went, I was like, 'Bro, what are you going to do?'" He goes, "I think I'm going to go to the driving range and hit a few balls." That's what it was. Yeah. And, and, and it helped me. It flipped a switch that day. I thought, "Yeah, you know what? Can I do about it anyway?" You know? And, yeah, it really. But thank God I had a friend. In fact, I haven't even told you this part of the story, but on one of my darkest days, now he lives in Arkansas. In one of my darkest days, Tammy came down. I was in the basement alone in my thoughts. And he, and she said, "Rick's at the front door. Rick's here." And he just showed up. He said, "What are you doing here, man?" He goes, "Just, just not going to let you be alone right now, man." Just, yeah. And that's what we need to be for each other. We need to, you know, every, every one of us need friends where we just show up. And then find out why I was needed to be there after I got there. And, we all need people like that. My grandpa used to teach us about the power of presence. Yep. The ministry of presence. Y'all, sometimes I think when people are even grieving, you know, I've had that responsibility sometimes of sitting with someone when someone's dying in the hospital. And what on earth would I say? You know? Yep. Someone lost a child. And, you just show up. And I think that we need friends. Yep. That just show up. And that's the kind of friend that you are. That's the kind of leader that you are. I don't think you're afraid of the messy areas of people's lives. And, um, I think you're the kind of pastor who gets into the mud with people and tries to pull them out. And at times, um, we even get criticized for that. And I just, uh, commend you. I want to publicly say, just how thankful I am for you, and thankful for the life that you live, and thankful for the leader that you are. And thank you for taking shots for a lot of us. There's a lot of people today that aren't bleeding because you've bled so much. And I mean that. I mean that. A trailblazer. I've said this before, it's like someone who goes in and does trail work, which is clearing a path so that we can all walk on the path. I just think you've been doing a lot of trail work. Thank you for that. And it means a whole, whole lot to all of us. Um, as we're kind of coming around the bend here, um, because I could just talk to you for two hours, and we go kind of long format here. But, um, I, I think that we call this podcast "Mature Me" because it means that we're not done growing yet. That we're continuing to become. And so we sort of always ask this question, and it's sort of funny to ask it to Chris Hodges, but I'm going to ask it anyways, which is, like, however you want to land on it, which is, what's an area of your life today that you need to mature in? What, what's, what's an area today that you, you need to grow in? That I won't say what area of your life is immature, because I don't believe there's a single part. But what's an area that you, you, you want to grow that you're like, "Hey, you know, right now, in this season of my life," and new seasons require new strategies.

It's an interesting question because I actually go through this process once a month. Oh my gosh. Where I have 12 dials. I call them dials. They're dashboards. They have 12 areas of my life. This is so, remember I told you about the list thing? This is this is the list person coming out again. So I have 12 areas that once a month I grade myself in those 12 areas. I love you. And then I write just one sentence because I can't handle more than one sentence of what I'm going to do this month, uh, to improve that area. And for the last year, that one area is in my physical disciplines. Just, I don't like to work out. I don't, I don't like. I've never liked those people that talk about having a runner's high and workout. Like, never, never felt it once. Envious of those who actually enjoy it. My favorite part of the gym is the door leaving the gym. You know what I'm saying? And so, and it's just an area where I got to get better, especially as I now in my 60s. It's, I just don't like it. I, I've never liked it. I just don't like it. And I love my, and I love my study time so much. Yep. I like it. Feels, it feels like a crime to wake up in the morning and and put my body first, 'cause I'm so creative in the morning. And I love my, I love studying the Bible. I could do it for eight hours a day. I just love, I enjoy preparing a message more than delivering it. I love my study. That is so funny. Opposite for me, completely. So that, and that's why, and so it's hard for me to, that's why you're way better preacher than me. Well, I don't know. I'm, I'm not a better preacher. I, I love my Bible a lot, and I love prayer, and I love worship, and, and then I love my family. So it's, but it's an area where I'm, I, I would actually call myself immature. You know, where I need to get better. Which you can get, you can get by with it for a number of years when you're young. I'm very active. Yeah. And I play golf and things like that. But, but in your 60s, man, it's, it's not an area where I can get lazy. And so I'm, I am on the "Mature Me" podcast, becoming accountable to the whole. People are going to start following you. People are going to be in your comments, "Did you work out today? Did he work out today?" My guy JP's in here, and I said, "I've got to get back." I love actually fitness type stuff, but I kind of fall off. And right now, I'm just trying to be back in the gym actively four days a week. And so I came into church today, he's like, "How many days a week were you in this week?" I was like, "Three." He's like, "Come on, we can do better." I was like, "Hey, bro, I don't need you right now doing this." But, and I need you. Who, but JP inspires me. You're speaking about being in your 60s. Yeah. And, you know, like I was just saying earlier, like the landscape of the church, there's a lot of people maybe that are afraid of what's going on. But you've always lived with such optimism, hope, excitement. What parts can you share about, like, your dreams and your visions for the future? What, like, I, I don't think that you're planning on retiring anytime soon. I feel like you're going to work harder. Can you, what can you say about the future and the church at large, but even just also what you dream for your future?

Well, no slam to those that who've retired, but I don't, I don't believe in retirement. I think I'm going to work till while I have breath and have energy. And I'm to my dying days, I, I'm serving God. Um, I'm so passionate about raising up a generation of young leaders right now. And we're building a university. That's the, there's, there's only one like it in the Christian space where it's been built out, out the academy model, like our, our militaries, like West Point, Annapolis, Air Force Academy. I taught religion class at the Air Force Academy back in the late '80s and '90s, and I got bit by this, this model where you have a university where you go to class, you know, every day, just get your bachelor's degree, but, but you also have three other different curriculums that you're going through at the same time. A character curriculum, a, a ministry skill curriculum. Our, our graduates at Highlands College graduate with 800 hours of ministry experience on the day they graduate. And then spiritual development. So it's a holistic approach. And, and Rich, I'm, I'm giddy about it. I feel like I'm 20 again, building this vision out, raising money to build dorms and facilities and raise money for scholarships. And I'm having more fun. I'm having as much fun today building this as I ever have in any year of ministry. I'm just having a blast. And it's, and it's what I hope to do for the next 15 or 20 years, if the Lord will give me energy to do it, is to be, you know, the chancellor of this, this school and, and raise up, um, workers in that harvest field. I, I think I truly believe this, that the number one problem in the world to solve, and that's a strong statement, the number one problem in the world to solve is the leadership problem. Come on. Because, because no matter what your pet problem is that you're trying to solve, you still need people to pull it off. Yep. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you believe in or what you want to solve, you're not going to be able to do it without people. Yep. The harvest is plentiful, the workers are few. And so I've just decided for the rest of my life. In fact, I go so far to say that if God made me stop doing everything that I do, and I only could do one thing, come on. This is what I would pick. I would pick, I would spend the rest of my life developing young leaders in full-time ministry. So, so I'm, I'm actually as excited today about ministry and the future, and I hope the Lord gives me 20, 30 years to do it. D recently spoke at Highlands College, and she came home and she said, "Well, our kids are going to Highlands College." I said, "Let's just, let's just give birth to the fourth one before we pick out their schools." But, there's no doubt that you guys are doing that. And what a beautiful heart. You're speaking my language right now. The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. And Highlands College, the work that it's doing and who it's developing gets me excited about the church at large, especially the church in America. And I really think our best days, uh, are in front of us. Absolutely. Absolutely. And never let the condition of the earth deter what the future, like God does his best work in crisis. Go. So, I mean, you know, we talk about pandemics, and everybody's all freaking out about the elections. And look, God does his best work when things are crazy. And, and so don't, don't despise that. It's not fun sometimes, but no, God does his best work. Uh, and, and I, I truly believe that we're in a, in a, the best generation ever, uh, to do the work of, of God on the earth. So I heard someone one time say, man, it feels like, you know, if, when you just look at the climate, sometimes we can feel like, Lord, this is probably a good time to have like, John Calvin on the earth, or like, where's Martin Luther now? Or where's C.S. Lewis? Oh, wait, it's Rich Wilkerson Jr. It's Chris Hodges. Meaning that God's not surprised, and God's picked us for this moment. Yes. And He does not call the qualified, He qualifies the called. And we rest assured in that. I get a lot of hope and a lot of inspiration hearing you speak about dreams and visions, even in your 60s, and being more excited about ministry. I heard you say one time, "Dreams and visions are the language of the Holy Spirit." And the fact that you're still dreaming, and the fact that you still carry vision, just tells me the future is bright. We're going from glory to glory, grace to grace. I love you so much, sir. Thank you so much for being with us. I'm proud. Hey, I'm proud of you. You're doing a great job, man. I love you. Following your lead. I mean that. You're the best. Ladies and gentlemen, that is Pastor Chris Hodges from, uh, Church of the Highlands, Highlands College. He's got so many different resources out there in the earth. Go buy one of his books, listen to The Grow podcast, follow what he's doing on social media, because it is powerful. And I just want to encourage you, if today helped you in any which way, leave us a comment, give us some feedback, questions we can answer, but of course, share, like, subscribe, and we'll see you next Tuesday, right here on the Mature Me podcast.