"This is Pure Manipulation"- 11 Traps Narcissists & Cheaters Use When They’re Losing Control of You!

I've heard a lot of men, they get caught cheating and they say, "This is a mistake. It meant nothing." The response is, "So, you blew up our life and our marriage for nothing." For nothing. Narcissists are so afraid of that narcissistic wound. I'm wrong. I'm weak. I'm a liar being exposed that they'll do almost anything to prevent that. What I'm doing is I'm actually getting them to commit to principles that I'm then going to use to snap their nanny.

Everyone is the nanny. Yes. The nanny fascination. Talk to me about everyone nanny. This is going to be a hot take. Here it comes. Don't kill me in the comments. I have a theory about women and men. I'm going to say it out loud for the first time. So, as a number one divorce attorney, you've seen it all. Manipulation, deception, infidelity, lies, narcissism, and every type of toxicity. So, for anyone watching right now, how on earth can we manage and handle a narcissist when all they're trying to do is rip you apart and tear you down?

I've seen so many things in 25 plus years of practicing law. No one has ever come into my office and said, "I would like this to be really awful and protracted. I'd like to spend as much money as possible in legal fees. I'd like this to just blow up everything I have. I'd like to ruin my children. I'd like to burn any goodwill and history that my co-parent and I have. I'd like to alienate everyone around me. I'd like to become the most awful, vicious version of myself humanly possible and be irreparably scarred at the end of it. No one's ever said that."

They all come in and go, "Look, I want to be fair." Even narcissists. Yes. Oh, more so narcissists than anyone else because they are convinced of the certainty of their innocence. It is it is never their fault. It is never their fault. Like so when you say fair, it's not actually fair. It's how they perceive their definition of fair. See, because their spouse is in an office somewhere saying, "I just want to be fair also." But they're asking for totally opposite things because that's their definition of fair. You know, if there's a line from a a talking head song, uh, facts all come with points of view, and facts don't do what I want them to. And that's the truth. Like, narcissists more than anything will not concede the possibility of their error.

Like, if you say, I've had plenty of narcissistic clients. I've cross-examined no shortage of narcissists, which, by the way, cross-examining a narcissist is the most fun a human being can have in life. Can we take these into two sections? Absolutely. All right. So, let's take it into you're defending the narcissist. So, you know, you have you have to handle them, right? I assume, right? So, I would love to talk about tips on how to handle a narcissist and then I would love the other side of how to cross-examine a narcissist when you're against them. So, which one do you want to take first? Let's start with how to handle them. All right, let's go. Yeah.

I mean, what I will say is in relationship, how to handle a narcissist is to get away from them, right? Like that's the answer, you know, because trying to fix a narcissist, like that's like saying like, you know, I want to teach a dog how to drive. Like you're not going to be able to do it. It doesn't mean you're a bad teacher. And by the way, it doesn't mean the dog is dumb. Like you just set out at an impossible task. And so I I often ask myself when I'm doing something, am I trying to teach a dog how to drive? I love that. So that's what happens with narcissists is you you do just have to get away from, right? So, but the process of extricating yourself from connections with a narcissist, by the way, particularly as a co-parent, right? So, if it's just about money, most people are like, "Let him have the money and just give me my freedom." Like, like they just become like Ike and Tina Turner, like give me my name, set me free, you can have everything else, you know? And I cannot tell you how many women have come into my office and said, "You can have it all. You can have all the stuff." The problem is is thinking that if you give the bully your lunch money that he's going to leave you alone is insane because you keep giving the bully your lunch money. You have the right to. He's going to take your bike. He's eventually going to take your bike. Like because all you're doing is saying to him, "Okay, let's make a deal. Let's make a deal. Like I'm I'm gonna back down from you and I'm going to just give you what you want and that's enough, right? That's enough. You want my lunch money. You can have my lunch money." Bully doesn't want your lunch money. bully wants you to submit. The bully wants to have power over you. Why? Because if they don't, it's a narcissistic wound and they can't handle that, right? So, you can't reconcile narcissistic wounds with divorce. It's the ultimate public rejection of the narcissist, who, by the way, it's it's it is essential to their self-image that they're perfect. So even when I'm their lawyer, I have to tread very lightly because I'm making them look at some things that the other lawyer is about to cross-examine them on. So they have to be prepared to answer for it and and getting up and saying like, "No, I'm blameless. I'm perfect." Like this isn't going to play well on the witness stand. Like narcissists thrive on on keeping scrutiny away from them and misdirection. They're like a really good magician, you know? like don't look over here. I'll do this over here so that you don't look over here. So, they're really good at like flipping the script. And it's you instead of them. And you know, even like you could walk in on them cheating on you with your sister and they would be like, "Why were you here? You weren't supposed to be here today. Is it that you don't trust me? What did I do that you wouldn't trust?" You know, the fact that what do you mean you I didn't trust you because I knew what was actually happening. Oh, so you're just the smartest person in the room, I guess. you know, and and I get, you know, this is what this is is you're just always been so brilliant and I'm a fool and I'm you're right. This is and all of a sudden you're apologizing. I'm sorry I interrupted, you know, but that's what happens. And so, as a client, when you're trying to manage a narcissist and the optics of a narcissist, and by the way, they're so charming most of the time. Like, you've got great raw ingredients as a courtroom lawyer because you're they're good-looking or they're really like they're usually very persuasive. you know, if only they were like had fangs, you know, like it really but but it's the truth. Like when I imagine again I I don't I don't believe necessarily in the devil, but like people imagine the devil is like fangs and I'm like no, I imagine like the best looking person ever like cuz the devil sends a limo. God makes you take the stairs like you know the devil just tells you how amazing you are and how wonderful you are. Tells you everything you want to hear, the sweetest lies, you know. So, for me as a divorce lawyer, the challenge is like anybody in a relationship with a narcissist, like I'm in a relationship with a narcissist. The good news is like I get to send them home, right? And I can fire them if I need to. Yes. You know, and very often they fire me. They fire me a lot. They often go through three, four, five lawyers because they don't want to hear the truth. They don't want to hear, "Yeah, you you need to figure out how to talk about the fact you got this wrong. You need to get in front of this." You know, I I have a a theory or a technique at trial. I call it the eight mile theory because from the Eminem movie 8 mile. And if you've seen it, you know, okay, so the last scene, as you remember, Eminem knows that the other guy is about to say all these things about him, all these embarrassing truths about him. So, he uses the last rap battle to just like, "Yeah, here's all the things like you're about to say about all the things." Yeah. When he says like, "Yeah, I'm a bum. I live in a trailer with my mom. Yeah, I got beat up by you guys. You cheated. My girlfriend cheated on me. And he tells it and then he goes, "Here, tell these people something they don't know about me." And the guy just is like frozen because he and he wins because of that. So I I call it the eight mile theory because I say to clients, listen, I want to bring out on my direct examination of you every piece of ammunition the other side is about to hit us with. And I want you to talk about it. And I want you to talk about it in an honest way that builds sympathy. Like I want you to get up and say, you know, if you sent a horrible text message insulting this person, I'm going to make you read it out loud. And then I'm going to say, "Do you think that was a good idea to send that?" And you're going to say like, "Yeah, no, it wasn't. It was, you know, I'm human. I I made a mistake. I shouldn't have sent that." And I'm watching the other side cross out pages of their cross-examination because I just took all their thunder away. I took their you can't handle the truth moment out. it's gone. So, the problem when you're dealing with a narcissist is they're so busy defending everything they do that, oh, no, they there's nothing to say. I'm perfect. I'm blameless. I got it all right. I don't want to acknowledge that. I'm not going to concede that. It's weak for me to concede that. Why would you ever concede that? And they're arguing with me about that strategy. So, what you have to do is it's almost like dealing with someone with like significant substance use disorder. like you have to say, you know, I'm not saying you have a problem with cocaine, but you know, a lot of people are saying that you've said they're wrong. I I totally agree. Like, but, you know, maybe it would be good to like, let's go get an evaluation just for the optics of it, just to be able to like show that, yeah, there's no issue, you know, like because you you have to do this like Jedi mind trick, this judo thing, like let their own momentum be the thing, you know?

So, when you're dealing with a a narcissist, before you move on, can I just um ask you exactly what did you do with the way you just spoke? Cuz I'm always trying to think when someone's not watching this and they're with someone and then someone says something. It seemed like there's a couple of tactics you did. You said not me, but everyone. So, is that to make you and that person him? I'm aligned with you. I'm still on the same team. Yeah. No, no. I'm only on your team. I'm But you know, here's what I'm afraid that somebody's going to say this. So, we have to get around that. How are we going to get around that? That's our task because I know it's not true. I know you're a very good father and I know that she's going to come up with all these examples and some of them are going to be totally false, but some of them are going to have a ring of truth to them and it's all sort of the optics of it and she's going to explain it the wrong way like like I know she had those bruises and you said that that was she was attacking you and you pushed her away and then she hit the door and it was of course I know I know what you told me but you know they're going to like have those recordings where you're yelling at her and I know you said that you know that was that she'd worked you up so much and that she had yelled at you before that and she gives it as good as she gets. I've heard like 50 million narcissists say that to me, but we have to so you you kind of give them like a a gentle version of the of the we have to confront this and I'm on your team. Okay. So gentle version of the truth, but positioned in a way that makes you guys be on the same team, not an opposition. The world is against you. We have the same goal. The goal is I'm here for you. I'm here for you. I want to help you. Help me help you. Okay? You know, and the way to do that is we're going to be confronted with some things that are challenging. We need to think about that, you know, and that is, I think, the best way to manage a narcissist to the extent you have to, you know. Again, if you can't get away from them, the best thing to do is try to figure out ways to get around them. And and it's actually I think it's easier to manage a narcissist. It's not a good long-term plan, but because all you have to do is just keep feeding their ego. Keep feeding the fact that they're right. So, I one of the pieces of advice when dealing with a narcissist is because

All right, guys. We'll be right back with the number one divorce attorney, James Sexon. But real quick, if you're done playing small, done being pushed around, and you're ready to build unshakable confidence in every area of your life, then smash the subscribe button right now because every episode of Women of Impact is here to help you build your confidence, own your worth, set strong boundaries, and make sure that you never ever lose your voice or power again. So, go ahead, smash that subscribe button right now. Now, back to the episode.

So I one of the pieces of advice when dealing with a narcissist is because very often people who are very narcissistic, their spouse has had an inside view of them going to war because the thing narcissists love that they love going to war because everybody's got horns or a halo. And usually they start out with a halo and then the minute they confront the narcissist and give them any kind of narcissistic wound, suddenly they have horns. There's nothing good about this person. They're the worst person in the whole world. They're dead to us. We're cutting them off. And so when you're a person who's trying to extricate yourself or help navigate someone extricating themselves from a person who's convinced that they're utterly blameless, it's challenging.

I'd love to know then in that. So you said about how to like kind of get them to admit the truth without you saying that, you know, you have to say this. Yeah. What if they disagree with you? How do you talk to them in order to get back aligned? If you're in a relationship with a narcissist and you're not at a place where you can start to extricate yourself from it, because that's a process, you the best thing you can do when you have to frame dialogue or frame what's happening is look, I'm with you. I'm on your team, but these people are saying this and how do we stop them from that? because you're you're feigning alignment with this person. Yeah. And again, sometimes that's the band-aid on a bullet wound that you need for that moment because this isn't this is I've represented victims of domestic violence, intimate partner abuse, coercive control for over 25 years because I did it in law school in my third year. I went to Forom Law School and I worked in the domestic violence law project that they have. So under under student practice order while I was in law school I was already defending victims of of intimate partner abuse. So I do a tremendous amount of proono work for various domestic violence agencies in New York City and over half of the women. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. No, I I'm ble I mean, it's the most rewarding thing I get to do, but it's also sometimes the most frustrating thing I ever do because nine times out of 10, if I can get them safe and out the door, which requires strategic tactical, it's like a professional hit. like we we've got orders of protection in place, temporary custody of the kids, the dog, everything else before he even knows an action's been commenced. I've had women that we have to get them another cell phone so they can leave the location tracking one that he has on the kitchen table while they come out to my office to sign the papers or to meet me at the Starbucks near their place so they can sign the papers because if they leave the house, he'll go, "Where did you go? Where were you? Why were you there? Who were you talking to?" They monitor all their communications. They monitor their text messages. Like we can't communicate. So we have to be really really careful. And anyone will tell you who's who's works in the domestic violence space the the most physically dangerous time is when a victim of intimate partner abuse is extricating themselves from the situation because when the the the abuser starts to lose control, that's when they flail. So the the hardest part is when we've done it perfectly because we've done it a bunch of times and we've done it perfectly and now we have power. We have leverage like and we we worked so hard to get it and that's when I get the phone call. Hey, I can we can we rescend the order of protection? Can we you know he called me? Wait, there's an order of protection. He's not allowed to call you. Well, it his brother called and said that he's really broken up and he's worried about him and I I I look I'm angry at him. I know, but I still love him and I care about him and he's the father of my kids and and we talked and and he was so he was crying and he was, you know, like this taught me every it taught me I'm never going to do this again. I see now how wrong I was. He's saying he's going to go to counseling. I've been wanting us to go to counseling for so and I'm listening to them and and you know there was a time 10 or so years ago where I was impatient in that situation and I would be like okay but like when he kills you in six months like don't call me and it was frustration like it was frustration because it was like oh my god like you know he's only doing this because you're winning and you're only winning because we were all so careful in handling this and now he's just he knows this is the lever. He knows like he knows you have this heart like he knows he found the victim here that's the right victim for a person like him. And what you come to learn is that a I tell them in advance like okay like I it took time to learn how to do this but I tell them in advance I'm like when we win the first round I promise you he's going to call like and it don't take the call or if you take it don't be fooled. Like don't be fooled. This is this is your kid when he's got a math test and he wakes up in the morning goes, "Oh, I'm not feeling very good." It's like, "No, no, you don't want to go to your math test." Like, you have to hear this as well. And sometimes telling them in advance is like the weapon they needed. Another thing I do a lot is I have some women I represented 15, 10 years ago who successfully, you know, extricated themselves from a domestic violence situation being married to a a narcissist at a high level and now they are in these amazing post-dorce lives and they made it out and I will call them and say I I have you 10 years ago in my conference room right now. Can you come in and talk to this? Oh, wow. And and 99.9% of the time they're like, "Absolutely. I'll be there in half an hour." Amazing. And they'll come in and they have a voice and a resonance that I would never have. Because they've lived it. Uhhuh. Like they've lived that. And they'll sit across from this person and say like, "Listen, I remember sitting at this same conference room table with Jim and believing my life was over. This would never be okay. That this man was a god. He would take everything from me. that it didn't matter how many lawyers I had or how much that I would never be okay. And I was wrong. I was wrong. It's going to be okay. And I I have to tell you like the most gratifying thing is just even connecting those people because again like they're tacticians narcissists. Like that's a gift to some degree. Like they're really good at manipulating people. So you have to get ahead of that. You have to figure out how to control for that and how to get But I've also learned that like if you can't and if this person says like, "Okay, I'm I'm taking him back. like let's resend the orders of protection. I've now learned that what I have to say to them is okay. Like you know that's you get to decide that like because I don't want to be another person taking away their autonomy and agency. Like I don't want to be another man telling them you know what you're an idiot fine do whatever you want to do. Don't come crying to me because that's exactly what he would do. Yeah. Oh that's so true. So I don't want to like you know like N just said like whoever fights monsters should see to it that they don't become a monster you know. So, I don't I I believe that like the world needs dangerous men because we keep the other dangerous men from the door. But I I genuinely believe like you don't want to become a monster. And so, I've learned in the last 10 years or so that I have to say, look, I I'm worried and here's the worry I have, but you get to make this decision and I'm here. Like, I'm here. So, if this works out, great. If it doesn't, I'm here and we'll we'll do what needs to be done again. Will we have the same opportunities? No. His radar is going to be up. But this is a choice you get to make. And sometimes being a little softer in that way and not getting frustrated is actually like the the remedy. It really helps because again, I don't want to revictimize someone who's been victimized. think of your honesty there by the way because I think um you know it's a little heartbreaking obviously to the women that you said that to but at the same time it's like you've learned so much since then and being like hang on a minute actually this is a better way to handle it and now I'm a I like to say a soft place to land for the women when they want to come back so let's say for instance you're in that scenario and a woman is like actually yes thank you for bringing this other lady in I now see how happy she is I want to be that happy so I want to proceed so now you proceed and the narcissist This is on the sand and now you have to cross-examine him.

Yeah. So, the great thing about being a trial lawyer is everybody has to shut up when you say the five magic words, please call your first witness. Like everybody in that room has to shut like conferences in court, which is like the first few appearances. It's kind of like a Baghdad market. Everybody's yelling stuff. Nobody has to prove anything. But yeah, I mean cross-examination is at its best it's about laying traps because the thing narcissists can't really survive scrutiny. Like scrutiny is their biggest enemy, which is why they're so good at misdirection and it's why they're so good at when they're attacked, they attack much harder back because the best defense is a good offense, you know. So, what's great about cross-examination is I get to ask questions in a manner that the only way you're allowed to answer is yes or no, you know? So, you don't get to explain like I get to say, isn't it a fact that A, B, and C? Yes or no. didn't you? D. But the the better thing you get to do on cross-examination is I know the story they're trying to tell and I'm going to try to get them to think they're going to get to tell that story. But what I'm doing is I'm actually getting them to commit to principles that I'm then going to use to snap their neck. Because what I'm going to do is I'm going to get them to commit to something. So, for example, they will say like invariably in a custody case, they'll say, uh, she is keeping the kids from me. She's keeping the kids for me. She's not spending time with the kids. She's keeping the kids from me. And so, instead of saying, well, isn't it true that she did this and isn't true that she let you this? He's always going to have an answer for that. Well, yes, but only after I begged. Or, oh, yes, but that was because she was being watched. So what you do is you say, "So you're concerned that she's not going to allow you to spend time with the children. Is that right?" Yes. And that you're concerned about that because that would be very bad for your children, right? Yeah. And you actually believe that she just does not understand what's good for your children. Isn't that right? And he's absolutely and he's going, "This is the worst lawyer ever. How did Sexton get this gig?" Like he's he's like playing right into my my theory of things. But really, what am I getting to do? I'm getting them to commit to principles. I just got him to commit to if you withhold the kids from a person, you're a bad person. If you are a bad person, you're a bad parent. Like, and now I'm going to pull out 50 examples, demonstrated examples of him doing the thing he just said is bad. And and the great thing about narcissists is you can always count on their ego being there and their willingness to like double down heavy on it.

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So, I've even had I had one a couple of months ago where I he was my client said like, "He's never had anything to do with our kids schooling ever. like he's just never not one parent teacher conference like nothing. Like he's finance guy. All he does is work. And now he wants 50-50 custody. Like he didn't just want 50-50 custody. He said he came in and said he wanted soul custody. And it's always I want soul custody because she's mentally ill. She's mentally ill. Like she's calling me a narcissist because she's mentally ill." And by the way, sometimes people who've been in abusive relationships for an extended period of time have complex PTSD. I was going to say and they present as almost mentally ill. like they come in and they're kind of super anxious. They're a little bit paranoid. They often have like substance use issues because they're not, you know, handling the stress and chaos of this particularly well. So, they do what? And by the way, narcissists, it's in their favor to keep a person medicated, drunk. It gives them ammunition against this per narcissists are always cultivating ammunition. They don't know when they're going to need it, but they're like, "Yeah, let's put together a dossier on damn near everybody because not everybody can help me, but everybody could hurt me." It's their world of enemies, you know? So you what you want to say to this person is look here's here's how we have to frame this like to a narcissist what you have to do is create a situation where they're going to talk about how heroic they are. They're going to talk about how wonderful they are. You can count on that. And I had this case where we knew he had never been involved in the child's schooling ever. But how do you prove it? Like it's kind of hard to prove like that a you know you don't want to drag all the kids teachers in test. I was going to say bring the kids teachers. You could, but it's like people don't want to do that. You know, I've done it, but I you prefer not to blow up people's the parts of their life are already blowing up. You don't want to blow a whole thing up, but you would bring in So, I I remember cross-examining this guy and I said to him, "Now, your your son recently had a problem in English class, isn't that right?" It's like, "Yes, yes." And I'm like, "Now, did you speak with his teachers?" "Yes." "Yeah, I talked to his teachers." "You did?" "Yes." "Did you talk with um his his English teacher?" "Yes." "Mr. Smith?" "Yes." And and you called him. Yes. And you talked to him. Yeah. How long did you talk to him for? I don't remember exactly. Have you Have you met him? Oh, yeah. I met him once or twice at the school. Now, I don't have Mr. Smith on my witness list. Like, I don't have the teacher on on my witness list because my client doesn't want to do that, but I just keep getting him to tell. So, what what did you discuss? Oh, and did you discuss the fact that your son's been missing classes? Oh, and did you discuss the And how long did And how many times have you talked to Mr. Smith? And he just kept doubling down of like, oh, I I don't keep trying. I'm sorry. I don't keep a ledger of how often I talk to my son's teacher. I talked to him several times. And then I said, "Now you you do know your son's teacher is a woman, right? Like Mr. Smith is Jane Smith is a woman, but you said you'd met her, right? I mean, you said you met Mr. Smith, but in fact, like Mr. Smith is Mrs. Smith and is a woman and not trans. Like this is a real this is a person." And he imploded. He's like, "Oh, I I might have been mixing him up with someone else." Now that's it. Your credibility is gone. It's nil, you know? So, the key is to like set traps, you know, line up faints, you know, create opportunities. I mean, in some ways, they're kind of the easiest people to tack around. Like, I I had a case recently where we were arguing over visitation schedule, and my client really wanted Memorial Day this year because her brother was having a party of some kind, and she wanted the kids to come. And she said, you know, can can you get me Memorial Day and usually whoever has Memorial Day, the other person gets Labor Day. Oh, it's kind of like you alternate certain holidays. So I said, look, this is like, you know, everything we ask for is a fight. And he was she was like, I know it's really important to me. So I was like, okay, let me see if I could do it. So I go to my posing counsel. I go, my client really wants Labor Day. My client wants Labor Day just this year and your client can have Memorial Day. My but it's really important my client has Labor Day. Oh, so and of course she goes in and comes back out. She goes, "No, he can't do it. He already has plans for the kids for this." I'm like, "Come on. This is important to my client. We're asking for this one thing. We can't do no. No." I said, "Fine. Okay. We'll have Memorial Day. You'll have Labor Day, but next year we're flipping." They're fine. That's what we'll do. I go back to my client. I got you Memorial Day. She's like, "How did you do it?" He agreed to it. I'm like, "Yes, but not how you think." Because you knew. I knew what if I said black, he'd say white. I knew if I said five, he'd say four. So, you just go in and just accept the fact that, okay, this person's just going to be obstreporous, obstructionist, detrative, everything they could possibly do to be difficult, they're going to do. So, great. Like, if I know what you're going to do is the most aggressive thing, I know what you're going to do.

So, really, the the tool is like be able to sort of move with it. You know, I've for 20 years I've done Brazilian jiu-jitsu. One of the things that's really, you know, interesting about like and it's taught me a lot about practicing law because one of the things you learn in Brazilian jiu-jitsu is like if you grab my wrist, you're holding my wrist, but I'm also controlling your arm because you've attached yourself to me as much as I'm being held by you. So now, okay, you have my wrist, but I have your arm like, and so you have two choices. is you can let go in which case my wrist is free or I can control your arm and which is bigger the wrist or the arm like what's the long lever right so that's how you have to approach this kind of thing like narcissists are so afraid of that narcissistic wound I'm wrong I'm weak I'm a liar any of that being exposed that they'll do almost anything to prevent that so they will give up like lots of really important tactical ground to win this one little stupid point. So great, you can have it. Like, we're going to let you have that and we're going to just open up everything around you now because you've thrown everything. So, I'm constantly when I'm litigating against a narcissist, I'm constantly throwing up enemies for them to go after rather than the main thing. I create like choice confusion. Oh, what do you mean by that? Give me an example. Well, like if there's five properties and there's one that I really want, the minute that that person knows that's the one I want, it's over. They're going to everything. They're going to make sure I don't get that one. So, you just start creating choice confusion like, "Yeah, whatever. We have five properties. Let's figure out which ones, you know, which one does your client want?" My client's kind of agnostic as to any of them, you know, whichever you does your client have any preferences, you know, and and what you'll see is like you'll see the gears in their head like start to smoke because they want to know like no, no, I want like I need some point of entry. Like I need to know what you want so I can figure out what I want because what I want is whatever you want because I don't want you to get what you want. So don't give them anything like don't give them any information. Like I keep them completely in the dark. And so this is another metaphor. When I was a kid, my parents used to throw barbecues. And my mom would go to the store and buy all the ingredients. She would chop them all up. She'd marinade the meat. She'd like put all this like and then my dad would put it on the grill and then take it off the grill. And everyone would tell my dad he's like a great cook. And I remember even as a kid watching that and thinking like she she did like 95% of the labor. You put heat on it. He he literally like did this. That was it. Like that was his kebabs. Like that was it, you know? But like I get it cuz he did that last step and that last step's like really important. But to discount the 95% of the effort, right? So, I always tell people like cross-examining narcissists. It's so fun. Like, it's the coolest thing in the world. Like, it's really like it's I I I it's my favorite part of my job. Because it's like playing chess. Yeah. It's like playing threedimensional chess. It's a multivaried equation. It's strategy. It's there's so much going on in there. And it's my I mean, I just love it. Like, I love it in a way that, you know, there's some things I'm good at. There's a lot of things I'm not good at. This I'm amazing at. Like I I can say that like I'm I am to this what yoyo is to cello. Like I don't know why like but this is what I'm good at. But you know the barbecue metaphor the reason why I said it is that a lot of what you need to do when dealing with extricating yourself from a relationship with a person who's got, you know, significant narcissism. It's the prep. Like by the time we walk into the courtroom, that's just throwing it on the grill. like everything is about sort of setting up the process and the sooner that you start to work tactically with someone who has experience at this the better.

So that was so amazing. I would love now to evolve into something. Um I believe you have a PhD in infidelity. I believe I have a PhD in infidelity. I've said I've told people that I I have a PhD in infidelity because I've represented the cheater and the cheated on for 25 years. I've represented the paramore, right? So the mistress or the there isn't a male equivalent to mistress. Mister, I don't know. But there's like the paramore, you know? So yeah, I've seen it from every possible angle and I've seen every form of infidelity. You know, there's a chapter in my book called the five types of infidelity. Well, I happen to have the five here that I would love to go over. Before we go into it though, I want to talk about something you talk in your book which you call everyone is the nanny. Yes. So the nanny fascination. Talk to me about everyone nanny and does that include women occasionally in the metaphor of like maybe it's the gardener or um not as much. It's more of a male thing. That's what I thought. So again, this episode is all about you helping us women understand men narcissism. I'm happy to do it. Yeah. explain why there's the nanny fascination and how we can understand it because you actually mentioned this in the book and it's immediately it came to mind is that it's they're not always be more beautiful. They're not always they're more often than not not like they're they're usually not like they're they're rarely as beautiful, educated, poised, put together very they're very rarely that because you got Jude Law who was married to Sienna Miller I think and she was stunning than Nanny sadly wasn't. Again, not to put judgment. Um Schwarzenegger and then Schwarzenegger. So there's more. There's a long list. I mean those are the ones that made it into the press. Like, believe me, I could list about a dozen other people you've seen on Netflix, you know, that the same thing happened. And by the way, like those are just famous people. So the nanny fascination is way bigger than we even know about. So, explain to me and every woman watching right now what the nanny fascination is and how we can wrap our heads around. I mean, I have my theory. I don't claim to know for sure. This is my theory. Sure. Yeah. So my theory on it is from from having seen it from all kinds of angles, representing the person who was the nanny and representing the person who's married to the person who's the nanny and having to often sometimes talk to the nanny because they're potentially a witness in a proceeding. Um there's a couple of theories I have. So one of them is a very basic clear one which is it's just like the novelty the new shiny object. It's kind of almost laziness like you know they're there. kind of around, you know, it's like why did you eat that? I don't know. It was there. You know, these are people that are like high performing busy people and they're like, "All right, like I'm just going to this when when the Coldplay CEO thing happened Pat last year, I I was I had my staff laughing because they were like, "Yeah, he was like sleeping with, you know, someone who works in the company." I'm like, "Yeah, it's called good management. Like he's at the office all the time." He was like, "Listen, guys, I can't leave and go find a mistress who's you'll be fine. Come on over here." like you know and of course I was saying it jokingly but you know the truth is you could say like yeah familiarity like you're just around each other proximity so that's a basic explanation because the one of the key differences between men and women in my experience when it comes to infidelity is like women are better at it like when they do it like women women make better choices with infidelity like like a woman looks at this situation and goes like I'm about to like put my whole life and like family on the line, you know, maybe like Brad Pitt in his prime, you know, is like and we could okay, we'll do it here, but then I'll make sure that there's no this and I'll tell him that I'm going to be in this place and men it's like, oh, I saw this woman behind the dumpster at the 7-Eleven. Like, yeah, why not? Like, it's very sort of impulsive a lot of the time. And then, unfortunately, it turns into like a habit or it becomes something bigger. It's not just like a diance, it turns into something bigger. So the simple explanation is just to say that like yeah, it's proximity. The nanny's around, they're there. I think you can get a little deeper into it and say they're also they're there with the kids. They're in the home. There's something like it an intimacy developing there because you're trusting them with this incredibly important thing, right? And they're showing their nurturing, caregiving side all the time, but they're young. Usually they're younger. And that's that's where my theory came out, which is they're kind of in some ways the wife when you met the wife. Like when the man met the wife, she had her own life. She had her own goals. There were part of her life that she shared with him, but then there was a whole part that was kind of a mystery. Like where did she go? She would go someplace else. They lived in different places. Like no man's a hero to his butler, you know? Like when you're around each other, that kind of proximity. I'm not suggesting that always happens. I don't think familiarity always breeds contempt, but I I do think that sometimes what makes a person like those early days of a relationship so cool is like you're interested and you're interesting, you know? Like you and Tom like very close, very, but like you've heard a lot of his stories.

You were there like you were there like you don't, you know, so it's not, you know, what'd you do today? You were here. You were here for the whole thing. So, the conversations turned more into what do you think? How did this feel? Like, what do you think about this thing? Because it you don't have to say like, "Do you have any sisters?" Like, you you already know the answer to that, you know?

So, this person's a bit like the wife when they first met. They're a mystery. They have some life outside of the house, but they're also like in the home with the kids. They show. And by the way, for the nanny, in the nanny's defense, she gets to see like a soft side of this person. You know, very often like you need the nanny there because like you're taking the wife out to dinner or on vacation and it's like, "Oh, look, he's like you get to see the best of this person." You know, you don't often fight in front of the nanny or if you're abusive, you don't abuse your spouse when company's over. You know, you wait until it's alone. So, you're seeing this best version of a person.

So the the the solution I propose in that chapter is I think actually a very good solution for men and for women but for the women who are trying to nanny proof their marriage. The answer is not like oh hire unattractive nannies because you know some of these things have proven that that doesn't work. Although again like I don't know that you should hire a super hot nanny. Like that's kind of, you know, like if I have junk food in the house, [laughter] you know what I mean? I can control my food environment better than my brain. So I don't know that you want to >> respect though for a second. I actually, as you were talking, I was like, "Oh, I would hire a smoking hot nanny and I would love for my husband to accidentally walk in on her naked. >> I would love it. That's the test." Because in all honesty, and maybe you can disagree here, for me, I'm like, that's the test. It's not the test when the woman isn't there offering herself. That's easy to then not have an affair. The hard thing is when it gets offered on a platter and now how do you respond? And for me >> that's not an invalid thought. I agree. I I I say something like that in so far as if the only thing keeping your spouse from cheating is you monitoring their whereabouts all the time. Yes. >> It's not worth the energy. >> Exactly. >> Like if that's the only thing. So I I I don't disagree. But I also think that like, you know, it is pragmatic to like if you hang around a barber shop long enough, you might think about getting a haircut. [laughter] Like you might not, but you might think about it and then everyone feels a little icky, you know? So, I don't know. I don't know that testing our spouses. >> I'm I'm only joking. >> I know you don't do that. What I really mean is like, oh, it wouldn't hurt my feelings if the like I wouldn't get jealous. I would just be like, "And what did you do?" >> You know, like the fact he was like, "So sorry." And he came straight to me. He's like, "Babe, I can't believe I just walked in on the nanny naked." It's a good point. >> In that case, I'll be like, "Well, did she have a good butt at least?" >> Yeah, I won't make a joke. But but see, you know, you also speak from the frame of someone who has like a secure attachment style with your partner and [laughter] the two of you have a rapport where you're you're thicst thieves, you know, like so it's easy to then go like, "Yeah, I would love to see what happens because you know the answer is you know what would happen, which is nothing at He would come in and go, "Oh my god, I need you to come and tell me like I can't believe." >> But you know, I I don't need to be the first person to tell you that Tom is something different. Like you guys are both built different. So that's why you I think have some of the things you have in life is that you're you're built a little different. Now again, are they teachable skills? Are they Yeah, I think they're teachable skills, but I think like I am in a courtroom. You guys are in relationship. like like I I I have a lot to teach about what it is that I do, >> but I don't know what it's like to maintain deep intimate connection with a person for 24 years as their spouse. Like you you know that you have a PhD in that. I don't have a PhD in that. So I I'm this is part of the reason I was interested in this conversation is that I I think there's things for me to learn from you when it comes to things like that and from Tom.

So I I I think fundamentally though like the the solution to this problem is the parts of you that were the nanny, right? Like autonomy, agency, making time for yourself, having some time outside of the home. Why not cultivate those? The temptation is I'm worried about my marriage being fragile, so I'm going to make it my number one priority and always be on top of it. I'm going to be a helicopter mom of my marriage. >> And I understand that logic. I really do. It comes from a really good deep place of empathy and like but you're also like now just there all the time. Like if we break it down to the fundamentals, there's you and there's me. When the relationship started, there's Tom and there's Lisa. And then there's Tom and Lisa, >> right? There's the you, the me, and the we. Mhm. >> You know, I I was having a conversation with a friend the other day that like the four I think the four most beautiful words a person could say is like you're my favorite person. >> Like those are the four most beautiful words to hear. >> You my son when he was like five or six years old. Yeah. When my five my son was like maybe even he might have been younger, might have been like three or four. We were doing something fun and he was having a good time and he looked at me. said, "Dad, you're my favorite person." And I remember thinking like like, "Oh, that that's like the nicest thing someone's ever said to me." Like, it's it's like it is it like chokes you up to even think about it. It was the most beautiful. But what is marriage? What is coupling other than saying like there's eight billion people in the world and you're my favorite person. Like to hear that and to say that and for it to be true. That's why like I I think love is the greatest thing in the world. Like it's the most be it's the worthiest pursuit in the world because at the core you're Tom's favorite person and he's your favorite person. Like, and that those four words that's the greatest gift in the world, right? But in that is you. You are my favorite person. Yeah, we are my favorite couple. But we is you plus me. And if you lose you in the Wii, like if you starts to go away in the Wii, you're taking my favorite person from me. Like why why would you do that to me? Like it's so easy to lose who you are. Like, and I think women really know this because I do believe like women put the other first. They put their spouse first. They put their kids first. This is a huge mistake that women make with very good intentions. I'm going to put all of these other people first, right? And where are you anymore? When's the last time you like went out and just did some things for yourself, developed your own identity, developed your own interests, became someone who like when we first met is interesting and interested, right? What's making you interesting? Like what are the things that you're passionate about? What are the things you're excited about?

So that's why I feel like I'm not doing women a disservice when I say, "Do you know the solution to the nanny problem?" Here's what it's not. talking about how all men suck. >> Oh man, >> it's not the solution. Like, I understand it's fun. Makes for viral Tik Toks. Like, if I got on here right now and I was like, "Here's the thing about men. They suck." It'd be like, "Yes, queen." Like, everybody'd be all into it. I get it. I get it. Anytime I say something in the gender war that squarely falls on one side or the other, I get tons of praise. I get tons of views. I get tons of likes and comments >> because all you have to do is say, "You know what's bad about women? They're just awful. And all the manosphere and red goes, oh my god, preach, brother." And if I say, you know, the thing about men is they suck and women are so much better, then all the women are like, "Yes, he's amazing." >> And and by the way, I'm I'm very even in my presentation of this stuff. Because again, I I wish there was just one team that was the winner and the other one. A world where men are flailing >> is not a world where women are thriving, >> right? >> Ever. Ever. And a world where women are flailing is not a world where men are thriving. Like, we need each other. We're stuck with each other. So, I I really believe that cultivating the me, right? Like who you are is the greatest gift you can give to your marriage. Everything tastes better when you're hungry. [laughter] Like, when you've had some time away from your family, you realize how much you love your time with your family if you're in the right ecosystem. So I think there's a lot of beauty in that and I think that is the solution to the distraction of the nanny because the nanny is a distraction.

>> It's that was so beautifully put. Also I think it becomes a moment of seeing if your partner wants you to win or not because >> I was a stay-at-home wife for eight years and I was serving my husband. I was a good Greek wife. I would cook for him. I would clean. He would wake up clothes were next to him. He would get changed. He would go to the gym. He would come home. Clothes were waiting for him. He would go to work. I would give him lunch. My entire for eight years was to serve him. I was profoundly unhappy and I never told him. I then finally told him almost like a breaking point that I want a different life and we started Quest and that kind of changed my life. >> I ended up doing less nurturing because I was now in business. I did less um serving him because now I was his business partner, not his stay-at-home wife. And you can ask him for yourself, but he will say he we are more connected now than we were when I was just serving him because I'm happy. >> I'm content. I have my own dreams, my own desires, my own mission. >> And now I'm bringing that to the Wii, like you were explaining before and but I lost myself >> and I just have so much empathy for women who lose themselves because they've got children. and they've been told they have to serve the family and now the husband goes and sleeps with the nanny. And so >> in those moments, I think a lot of women make it about themselves. I'm not pretty enough. I didn't do enough. And I love >> that's a simple explanation. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so I actually love that the antidote is do more for yourself. Like that's a beautiful >> and it feels kind of counterintuitive because it's like the solution that most people come up with is just like beat the crap out of yourself, right? >> Like oh this is my failing. This is my fault. This is my I'm getting older. I'm not as attractive. I'm not as whatever. Why did I not satisfy him? Like, and that's not the answer. The answer is actually this person picked you. >> You special, unique, you you know. And I think that there are two contradictory things that are huge mistakes people make at the start of a marriage. And they're going to sound like a contradiction, but one of them is believing that getting married is going to change this person. Like, oh yeah, he's a partyier now, but if we get married, he won't be. Oh, he's a Kasanova now, but if we get married, he won't be anymore. He drinks too much now, but if we get married, he won't. He works too much now, but if he get married, he won't. So, thinking that marriage is going to change this person is a huge red flag and problem. The other problem is thinking this person won't change. Thinking, oh yeah, this is who they are and this is who they'll always be. And by the way, like that's a real compliment to say like, I like this person so much I hope they never change. >> Like this dish is so delicious. I want to eat it every single night for the rest of my life. Like but but the truth is like you're going to change. You're going to change. Life changes all of us. Like if you if you don't change from 25 to 45, there's something seriously wrong with you. So I think there is tremendous value in just realizing that like yeah this person's going to change but [snorts] what did you do like see even in that story what did you do you share you were brave that's a really amazing thing like like because if you're not scared it's not brave >> like you have to be scared for it to be brave >> and his response was what kind of husband would I be if I put clean underwear ahead of my wife's happiness Amen. Well said. >> And to your point, so I had to be brave to say it. And the one thing I take full freaking ownership over is I didn't communicate my unhappiness. We all change. And I think what ends up sometimes happening over each year is you don't communicate the little things and those little communication things end up becoming the big thing. So I'd love to now actually take that into infidelity because I think that's where a lot of that stems from where it's like you haven't communicated your need. Um, I know a the high rate of divorce or infidelity ends up happening when a woman gets pregnant or when she first has the baby. And so when I think about the communication part, luckily I learned it quite early on in our first eight years of marriage where I was like, I'm never going to do that again. I'm going to communicate constantly and consistently. And so when I think about the infidelity piece, I think a lot of people are not saying what they actually feel. So I'd love to go through, if you're okay with it, the five and then let's break down again. >> Yeah, we'll break it down by men and women. >> Yes, let's do it. Okay. So, you've got number one, which you say is actually the most painful, which is the freshly discovered soulmate. And it's I met someone, I'm in love with them, and I'm leaving you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, whoever it was that created the concept, the word soulmate, like we divorce lawyers owe them a tremendous debt of gratitude because they've been really good for business. >> Oh, >> because what is this soulmate? But this idea that there's like the one true penis, you know? There's like the one true vag like there's the one true person. I made you spit your water. I love that. >> Oh, I'm so close. Mission accomplished. [laughter] I can go home, guys. I'm out. That was great. >> That was my goal. It's like, I cannot make the laugh that hard. Um I I can leave now. Um no, I mean, the truth is like we we really do um create this >> and I think Hollywood does it. Like I think Hollywood media and now social media does this >> like the the one >> well look this if your education about sex was porn >> you'd have a really weird view of what sex is okay because what is porn but a idealized stylized very specific very visual represent okay >> it's a really interesting story you know what I mean >> but the thing is you're married to a person they're human they make mistakes they're not Perfect. And so the concept of a soulmate is your person when you find them is going to be the best friend, best conversationalist, best lover, best travel companion, best roommate, best co-parent, best really. Like that's the skill set. That's incredible. Like you found one person that is all of those things. Like I'm not saying there isn't somebody out there that's going to say in the comments, "Oh yes, I found that." Good on you. That's great. But that's like saying like, "Oh, you're a great cook. Can you farm, too?" Like, wait, no. Those are two totally different things. Like, so you don't have to. Everything is equally important, and if this person's not perfect, you didn't have your soulmate. >> You found the wrong one. You found the They're still out there. And see, that's what creates what I think is the most painful kind of infidelity because we're married, there's a familiarity, fallen into certain routines. You know, you do often with really good intentions. Like I think people in unintentionally ruin their own sex lives >> all the time. All the time with really good intentions. And here's why. Ready? You meet wild chemistry. Attracted to each other. Oh my god. Right? You even brush against each other in the thing and you feel it in your toes >> because they're still kind of a mystery. There's things you haven't done and all of a sudden just their touch is like intoxicating. The scent of them on you is like, you know, it's the great boy. That by the way, thank God that softens a bit >> because you'd never get your done. You'd never get a damn thing done. You'd just be distracted all the time 100%. So, it's good that like that softens and transforms into something different, right? But so, here's the thing. Now we start sleeping together. >> You start to figure out what do they like. >> Yeah. >> You know, you throw this stuff at them that you think they'll like. >> Maybe something they told you that they like >> or maybe something that you figure they might like or maybe an article you read in Cosmo. So now I'm going to figure out what you like and you're going to figure out what I like. And then what are you going to do? Play the hits. >> Yeah. >> You play the hits. Like you don't go see Bruce Springsteen to hear the ghost of Tom Joe. You want Born to Run. You want, you know, Thunder Road, like you want Born in the USA. >> Time is limited. >> LIKE, RIGHT? LIKE, WE GOT A TIGHT SCHEDULE. LIKE, we gotta move this thing. We got to land this plane. Come on. Like, and by the way, why wouldn't you? If I know what you like, you know what I like, let's do the things the other person likes. And that's why like early days of the relationship, OH MY GOD, it's the greatest thing. Now, what did we just do? We just made a routine. >> Just made a routine. And now we've created conditions where the other or the novel is even more interesting. And did we mean to screw up our sex life? No. It's the opposite. We actually really wanted to give the other person everything that makes them happy. But unintentionally, we created a routine. And so I think that's how people screw it up. So what happens in the soulmate example? soulmate example is all of a sudden this different this novelty is out there and social media has made it 50 times easier. Like if we were going to invent an infidelity generating machine it would be Instagram or Facebook because all of a sudden I'm talking to people that I kind of have no business talking to. >> And by the way there are entry points that are totally innocent. like I follow you on Facebook because our kids are on the same soccer team and now they post on the group about when the soccer is and now I see photos of you in a bikini >> because you went on vacation and now I have a totally innocent entry point like meaning I I'm not saying like nefariously and oh where'd you guys go? Where'd you stay? How was it? Oh, we stayed in Tulum once. It was great. Did you like this? And now what's going on? We're talking. We're talking and you're interested. I don't know everything about you. You're not. Again, it's like the nanny example. Like the you, the me, and the wei. When the Wii takes over, you I know everything about you. I know. I even know what you're going to do next in bed. This person's a mystery. And so now, innocently, I've engaged with this person. And is it normal and human? I'm not excusing it. I'm explaining it. >> I think it's normal to find this other person fascinating and interesting. And then a lot of people take the bait. and they take it to the next level and they cross the line. They cross the line to flirtation. Then they cross the line to connection and meeting up and maybe you know like okay well it's going to one time and then it turns into and then people come home and go I've met my soulmate >> because I love you and I love our life and I love the kids but this person makes me feel something that I haven't felt. this this excitement, this passion. Now, that's heartbreaking. Like, cuz someone coming home and saying like, "I found my person and it's not you." Like, this is my favorite person. Like, >> oh god, that just hit me. >> It's as bad as it gets. >> It's as bad as it gets, you know? And again like you know Solsen said if only there were evil people >> like just out there insidiously doing evil. But the truth is like you know the line of good and evil runs through the human heart. Like we all have weakness in us. We all have beauty in us. We all have ugliness in us. We all have insecurity in us. We all have confidence in us. When you spend time with people who cheat the way that I do, you really start to view them in a more sympathetic fashion because people don't do evil because they're evil. They mistake it for happiness. Like they they think this is going to make them happy. Like they're as scared and lonely and insecure and frightened of the the the thousand natural shocks the flesh is air to. Like they're they're just human. I definitely understand that from an intellectual standpoint. I think for me, obviously being married and stuff, I'm just like, then just leave. Like if you're finding this attraction, maybe you didn't even mean to, right? And you're finding this connection, >> acknowledge it >> and then assess whether that's worth leaving your marriage for. It's the deceit and the lies and the betrayal that I have such a hard time because especially when you're married, I'm just going to speak. I have zero um jealousy over my husband. Like I I trust him implicitly and I've told him and I know that in trusting him implicitly, he has my heart, you know, in his hands and he can absolutely hurt me. But I think that's what marriage is. That's what taking that risk is is I'm going to give myself over to you. The problem is is when someone abuses it. And I understand that there's so much complexity to humans. I just have such a strong moral compass for myself that there's no circumstance ever that I would cheat on my husband. I may leave him. >> Yeah. >> I may be unhappy and I'd navigate it, but the infidelity part is so freaking hard. Well, you know, the most common question when a when a man finds out his wife is cheating is, "Did you [ __ ] him?" >> Yes. >> And the most common question when a woman finds out her husband cheated is, "Do you love her?" >> And that tells you, I think, everything you need to know. >> Yeah. >> Like, so, so your answer is like, you know, what you just said a second ago when you said, "Well, you know, I would have so to get past that and to have sympathy for this person I have a hard time with because of betrayal. The solution is don't get there. Don't get to the place where infidelity would even be a thought. See, people come to my office and they're like, "Is cheating the number one cause of divorce?" And I always look at that and I go like, "You're mistaking the symptom for the illness." Like, happy people who love each other and are deeply connected in their relationship don't cheat. >> It doesn't even it doesn't even occur to them to cheat. Like, because why would they? I'm not I'm already fed. Why would I eat? like I'm not hungry. Like, but but here's the thing, and I'm not blaming the victim. I'm not blaming the victim, but it's everybody's fault or it's nobody's fault. I'm sorry. Like, you you have to accept the fact that it is easier and better. Like that. That's why the title of my first book was if you're in my office, it's already too late. And I'm not saying that that's not fixable. like gaining a tremendous amount of weight and now getting type two diabetes. I'm not saying, "Well, it's too late. Roll up the books. You're done." No, there's things you can do. But you know what would be a whole lot better? Stay healthy. >> It's easier to maintain your weight than to gain a whole bunch of weight and then try to lose the weight and then gain the like it's whole much easier and better to maintain. And that's what all my work and my book and my speaking is about. It's about listen guys, we don't have to let this thing break. create a marriage where infidelity is is not likely to happen because there's a depth of connection. But guess what? You both have to be part of that process. You can't just sit there and go, you know, uh if my spouse cheats, they're a terrible person. You know, that may or may not be true, but you have some responsibility in this relationship. You know, you don't owe your husband a [ __ ] You don't You don't You don't have to do You also don't have to be married. Mhm. >> You don't have to be married, but you've made a decision. You made a decision to get married. You've made a decision that I'm going to be this person's person, and I want to be their only person. Okay? So, guess what? You're right. You don't have to sleep with your husband. You don't owe him that. But he doesn't have to be your husband either. And you don't have to be his wife. We signed on for something. We signed on for something that fails roughly 56% of the time. So, it's already the odds are against us. You can make the argument legally that it's reckless, that it's negligent, that it's consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk of serious harm because 56% of marriages catastrophically fail. They divorce. What percentage stay together because they don't want to give away half their stuff or because they don't want to like leave the kids. 10%. I'm being nice. 20. Now you got something fail 76% of the time. And we're gonna get mad at ourselves that we're not great at it. Like come on. The odds are stacked against you. So, you're going to have to make a conscious effort, as I'm sure you and Tom do, as any happily married person does, to like consciously, what are they doing? How do I check it? How do I help them see their blind spots? What am I doing? How do I check it? How do I see my blind spots? Like, that's a two-way thing you got to both do. Or else, that soulmate concept, like that soulmate thing happens because you stopped being the person. you stopped being my favorite person and you were my favorite person because you were you. And when things changed, we didn't we didn't take the time to figure that out. And now we've gone far away from each other and we've created conditions where somebody can wall in and be the soulmate. >> That's so hard to intake, but so true. And it dawned on me a few years ago now where I met my husband when he was 24. So his sex drive was just freaking insane. 24y old boy for [laughter] that reason. That's exhausting. Yeah. >> It's just insane. But we've been together for so long. And then a couple of years ago, I was like, he doesn't yearn for me like he used to. [snorts] >> Like when he was 24. >> When he was 24. Yeah. Jesus. Yeah. >> And so, but I didn't want to just take it for granted that it was through age. And so, I wanted to make sure that there wasn't anything that I was doing like what can I do better? Like I'm always trying to think that. And so I asked him, I was like, "Babe, are you sexually satisfied?" And he's like, "Yes, I I" He's like, "Absolutely. I would tell you if I wasn't first of all." And he goes, "And second of all, I'm not that 24 year old guy anymore." And I said, "Okay, I just had to ask because I need to know how you're feeling. Are you feeling satisfied? And then is there something that I can do better?" And then even in that second thing, is there something I can do better? I need him to tell the truth. It is up to me if I decide I'm going to do it. >> Right? >> And now at least we're communicating. And when I think infidelity and everything, it's like I don't want to get there to your point to be the symptom. I have to make sure that it's healthy. >> So, I have to inject healthy habits into our relationship. >> The way you said it was very specific. You didn't go, you know, we're not having sex as often as we used to. No, but just the fact that you're like, "Oh, no, no." Right. But that's >> He would have felt blamed. He would have been like, "Oh my god, as a man." >> But again, Lisa, what did you just do? What did you just do instinctually? Right. Like like people, it's so funny because you're like, "Oh, like my marriage just happened." No. Like you're you're just doing the thing because what you just said when I said, "Well, it wouldn't just say you're like, "No." Oh my god, that would bring out something so defensive. Right. That's a skill. That's a skill. Like, do you know how much time I spent in school learning how to do long division? [laughter] >> Tons. Do you know how often I use it? Fully never, right? But this, >> no one teaches this. Like, what? You're gonna get mad at yourself for the fact that nobody taught you this? Now, listen. Some people just figure it out. >> They figure it out through trial and error. They figure it out on their own. They're empathetic. They're sympathetic. They're whatever. Because here's the thing. You guys never lost the plot. >> Never lost the plot. Like the plot of the story you decided to write together at the like incredibly young age you started writing it. You never lost the plot. Like I like to read. I read a lot. And I read a lot at bedtime. It like winds me down. >> It's better than doom scrolling. So, I I read and there always comes a time where I go, "Wait, what's going on?" Like, I I'm tired and I I don't remember what's going on in the book. And so, I have to go back a few pages and then I go, "Okay, that's where I stopped understanding. Let me put the bookmark in there." >> You have to do that in your relationship. Like, you have to go, "Hey, we're we're losing the plot." Like, we started this thing together because we want to be happy, not just we want to be married. What did you We're married for 50 years. Yeah, we were miserable for 45 of them, [laughter] but we did it. Like, we got to the finish line. It's like running like the 50 mile ultramarathon. Like, I get it, but like, okay, congratulations. Like, that's crazy that you did that. Cuz I have to tell you something. Like, I think the most hurtful marriage antagonistic thing you can do or say, the crulest thing you can say to your spouse is not words. It's this. It's It's just that sound of like >> contempt. >> Yeah. Right. Like it because you know the opposite of love isn't hate. The opposite of love is indifference. Like indifference is indifference is the worst thing. Indifference is like what you're it means nothing to me. I don't even notice you anymore. >> There's a line in a song and every time I hear it, it cuts. It's something like I would rather you hate me than not think of me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because hate is a passionate emotion. I still have skin in the game if I hate you. Like, you still have an emotional tie to me. >> Like the idea that like I hate you. Like, you're still having real estate in my brain. If I My answer is I don't think about you at all. >> Yes. >> And by the way, like what's really to tie it back to the infidelity conversation, I've heard a lot of men in defense of the infidelity, right? If they get caught cheating and they say, "This is a mistake. It meant nothing. It meant nothing. This person meant nothing to me." And I think they think that's going to help. >> Yes. >> Like I don't love her. She meant nothing to me. And having represented women who've heard someone say that, the response is, "So you blew up our life and our marriage and and put everything of my love for you at risk for nothing." For nothing for something that meant nothing to you. >> I got a question. Who says um it meant nothing more, men or women? >> Men. >> Yeah. >> Because women don't I don't think women cheat that way as much. Like I think women when women cheat it's like a professional hit a lot of the time. Like they really they they go about covering their tracks. It's also a lot of times in my experience with women and again I I hate to make overgeneralizations but you know you've invited that part of the conversation I [laughter] have. So I'm going to do it. >> You're on a show called Women of Impact. >> I'm going to say it that. That's why I'm not afraid to say it. And again this is just my observation. I'm not a psychologist. I sit in a room with men with women. I've watched hundreds now of people cheat. I've listened to them. It's my job to defend them. So, I have to get to know what was going on in their brain. So, like I just don't shoot the messenger. Like, I'm not saying it should be this way. I don't live in the should. I live in the world, right? Like, I know how the world should be. If it was perfect, cool. I don't live in that world. I live in the real world where people are flawed and make mistakes and we step on the rake all the time, >> you know? So, I I think fundamentally people just they're trying to find happiness and they screw it up. women very often in my experience cheating is like the final nail in the coffin. It's the like I had to prove to myself that this was really over >> or I was so angry and disconnected from my spouse that this was like a reaction formation to that. >> Like it it's very rarely like yeah I just, you know, I just couldn't resist that penis. Like it's rarely that. And and part of that I think it's not too hard to figure out. Like women have always been the gatekeepers of sex. >> Like you and I go out right now into the town. Which of us can get laid first? Guarantee it's you. Guarantee it's you. You're very famous. >> Thank you. But guarantee >> Oh, there's lots of women love to talk to me [laughter] and there's lots of women that would like and maybe with some effort I could get. But I'm telling you, >> you walk into a room and go, I'd like some penis. [laughter] There's going to be at least a button. Okay, I'm in. Like, it's going to happen. It's going to happen. Like, it's why I've actually said like the idea of a hall pass, a celebrity hall pass, >> is a terrible bet for men. >> Yeah, me. Oh, [laughter] >> terrible bet for men. CUZ THINK ABOUT IT. LIKE, ALL RIGHT. I'M I'M SEMI FAMOUS. OKAY. Semi famousamous. Like Dlist. Okay. woman comes up to me and goes, "Listen, my husband and I have an arrangement that I'm allowed to sleep with you. Do you want to just real quick run into the bathroom at the Delta Lounge?" And I there's a chance that I'm like, [laughter] "All right." YOU KNOW, LIKE WHAT THE HELL? LIKE THAT'S CH any man there's a chance, right? [laughter] If I roll up to to Sabrina Carpenter and I go, "Excuse me, Sabrina. [laughter] Just want to let you know of an opportunity. My wife and I have an arrangement where [laughter] we have agreed that I'm allowed to have sex with you. Do you think she's gonna really? Oh my god, let's go do that. Like there's not a chance in the world. So women have always been a bit of gatekeepers of sex. >> And I think part of it is is that women are just inundated with sexual attention all the time. Like go on Instagram and look at a woman's DMs versus most men's DMs. Go on dating apps. There's been tons of studies about this about how many more opportunities women have. So women have been gatekeepers of sex for a really long time. So, it's not as surprising if something's thrown at you constantly as an opportunity, you're not going to be as like scintillated by it, you know? Whereas for men, when we have an opportunity, very often, it's like, oo, oh my god, this person wants to sleep with me and and and my wife very often can't stand me and kind of makes me feel unattractive and uninteresting. And women, when they cheat, in my experience, it's that something fundamentally is broken in this relationship. And it's like a last hail Mary pass of like maybe I'll feel fulfilled if I have this other thing. >> But very often what it is is I think I'm gonna have this like all right, you know what? Maybe I'll feel alive again. Like I'll go have this thing and then I I won't blow up my life. And then they do it and they realize like, oh yeah, this this is over. Like it's this relationship's over. Like I wouldn't have done this if I was invested in this relationship. >> [sighs] >> Um, okay. There's one more actually of the types of cheating I'd love to go over you. Okay. So, we went over the freshly discovered soulmate and then you got the wakeup call, which is basically you sleep with somebody, you realize, "Oh my god, my marriage actually is in trouble." And that's the wakeup call. The big mistake, which is what you just said. >> Yeah. The big mistake is sometimes like the I was in Vegas, I was drunk and I hooked up with this person or I was in Right. It was nothing but it was just dumb. It's the oh my god, I can't believe I did this. I I I wish I could undo it. It means it's the opposite of the soulmate. >> It's the opposite of like, I've met the person and it turns out they're my person and you're not. It's the oh my god, I can't believe what I did. It was so wrong of me to do. I'm so ashamed that I did it. That's the one that most people can move through. >> The problem is we have not created a world where people are allowed to talk about that. >> Like it's not popular to say my husband cheated and I took him back. Like that is a suffer in silence situation. For a man to say, "My wife cheated and I took her back." Like Beyonce would have been a hell of a lot more popular if she'd kicked Jay-Z's ass to the curb. She did the harder thing. She could have done the easy thing where everyone would have been like, "You go, girl." Like, they would have been girl bossing right into the sun. They would have been real into it. But instead, and and the problem is she kind of had to suffer in silence about it because you say that out loud and everybody pillaries you. >> Everybody beats you up. Women do not like a woman who forgives a cheater. >> But don't you think that would be the same for a man? Like to say, my wife slept with somebody else, right? >> You're a s. How dare What kind of man are you? Do you have like the little chair that you sit? Like that's crazy. Yeah. But meanwhile, it really could be they made a really stupid mistake. Are they defined by that mistake? Again, I'm not saying people should be just given a pass like it's nothing. But look, if I define your quality as a spouse, by your worst moment as a I guarantee in 24 years being married to Tom, there's some moment where you did not show up for him. You screwed up. You got it dead wrong. >> Yeah. >> If I say you are defined by that moment, I am being so unfair to you. Similarly, there is some moment where you were just gold star, man. Like he you knew just what he needed. It wasn't easy. You gave it to him perfectly at the right time. You were the perfect spouse in that moment. >> If I define you as a spouse in that moment, I'm giving you far too much credit. I like >> you're setting me up for disaster because I can't hold that standard because if I go that's who you are. No, I'm an amalgam of all those things on a long timeline. Like I'm all the moments I showed up. I'm all the moments I screwed up. I'm all of them. And by the way, that's the only love worth having. >> One caveat I want to make just in case you don't know. I've said this publicly, so I want to say it to you. I have two non-negotiable boundaries with my husband. And one is he cannot cheat on me and he cannot hit me. Because for me it those are good boundaries. It isn't just the act itself. So like God bless Beyonce like you have got to do what is right for you. I don't have the judgment. I just couldn't do it for myself because I've given myself over implicitly. I've given my heart over and I've given my body over. >> You can't feel loved if you don't feel safe. Correct. And both of those things are about safety. Is my heart safe? Is my body safe? And I say to people all the time, you can't feel love if you don't feel safe. Safe is and I say that as someone who's represented victims of domestic violence for a long time. Like safety is just a ground rule foundational of love. It absolutely is. A person has to feel safe. All I am simply saying is I believe if we are going to be a collective, a culture. >> Yes. >> And we know this is a problem in fidelity like God in theory whether you believe the Bible or not gave 10 rules, right? Thou shalt not kill. Honor the Sabbath. 10. Two of them were don't cheat. Thou shalt not kill. Got one. Thou shalt not kill was got one. Don't covet your neighbor's wife. Don't commit adultery. Those are two separate rules. And so a book written a long time ago that claims to be an owner's manual for the universe has in it the problem of infidelity so big that out of 10 rules, two of them are don't cheat on your spouse. The only one that got two rules. So, can we acknowledge this is a problem that a lot of people have? And if we really care about each other and ourselves, >> shouldn't we create an environment where we can talk about it? >> Yeah. >> We can talk about creating conditions where it doesn't happen? Because here's what I'll tell you. The ostrich approach doesn't work. >> Pretending it's not a problem doesn't work. Monitoring your spouse's location 24/7 doesn't work. And it also creates an environment that just absolutely sucks. Right? So 86% of people are remarried within 5 years of their divorce. So that's people that did this thing, it catastrophically failed, and they sign back up. 86% within five years. Why? Because it's that important. >> I love that. Um, >> okay. You also have two more >> of

The types of cheating. So the push out of the closet, which is, "I'm gay or lesbian, I was just pretending."

>> Very specific. Yeah.

There was a period of time where, you know, men were, you know, gay men were vilified. You know, you, you, so there were a lot of people in the closet, and they just sort of had to say, "Okay, I'm going to force myself to, you know, try to be attracted to the opposite sex." And there are still people that are in families where, you know, it would not be acceptable to be same-sex attracted or to identify as gay or lesbian. And they do what you're supposed to do, which is, "I'm going to get married because I would be a disappointment or people would know that I was gay if I didn't marry a woman." So, I'm going to marry a woman. But attraction is attraction, desire is desire. I mean, and it's kind of funny because I, I live in Chelsea in New York City, so I live in a very gay area. And, you know, I have a lot of gay male friends. And even the discourse has changed so much where it's like, you know, if you say like, "Oh, when did you realize you were gay?" When did you realize you were straight? I don't know. Like, I realized that was straight. I was watching Wonder Woman and saw Linda Carter. I don't know. I think that was what it was like.

But that is what that was a side effect of. And, and early in my career, we saw a lot of those. We saw a lot of the like, >> person who's like, "Okay, I the kids have grown." >> "I've got to be me." >> Yeah. >> And I used to think that that would be easier. >> Like a form of. It's so much like. And I'm shocked by that. Was one of the most shocking things >> in my entire career >> because I felt like, and I'm speculating, >> but I felt like if a woman I was in a relationship with >> said to me, "I'm leaving you because I want to be with another woman." Oh, like, I don't serve that at this restaurant. [laughter] Like, I don't, like, I don't have that equipment. Like, because if you say, "I'm leaving you for another man," you're saying, "I want one like you, but not you." >> Yeah. >> Like, "I want one like you, but better." >> Yeah. >> Which feels very insulting. >> Yeah. >> You know?

I literally asked this question. It was a couple of years ago, and there's a bunch of girlfriends, and I can't remember why we brought it up, but I asked the question. I was like, "Okay, well, if your partner was to have an affair, and you had a choice, or if it was with a man or a woman, who would you choose?" And unanimously, women at the table chose they'd rather him be gay and sleep with a man. And I was like, "What?" And the reason was, every woman was like, "Well, at least it's not about me. At least he hasn't left me for a prettier woman." >> And that's what I thought. >> Right? >> It's not what happens. >> Me and one other woman were like, "But now our entire marriage was fake."

>> Yeah. See, so, you know, you're, you're, we're really psychotherapying you here. This is, we're on [laughter] the couch. Because really, it all comes back. It's the same thing with your infidelity. It really is. For you, it's about honor. >> Yes. >> It's about a promise. And it's about, if I can't trust you in this, what else was a lie? >> Yes. Because now I'm going >> That integrity for you is so important. >> Yeah. Because also when you've got memories >> Yeah. >> Now, >> yeah. You got to re- the whole, what was >> I rewrite the whole script, >> everything. >> What I've seen is in those divorces, there were often like blatant red flags. But now when you rewind the tape, you go, "Oh, that was real. That was that." But the same thing happens even with, with, you know, normal infidelity, like non-sex infidelity, is all of a sudden you're like, "Wait, were you on that business trip?" >> Oh, yeah. >> Or where were you? Like, what can I trust now? What was a lie and what wasn't? Like, you, you misdirected me so effectively. But yeah, that the jump out of the closet or the leap out of the closet is is one of the types of infidelity. It's one of the saddest, too, because I think it's just painful for both people. And I'm seeing less of it as the years go on now because I think it was a function of heteronormativity, homophobia.

>> Yeah. Um, and then you got the last one, which is the revenge. So, you had an affair. I supposedly figured it out, forgave you, we worked on it, but now I'm actually going to go and sleep with somebody else to get revenge. A, who does that more, men or women?

>> Women. >> Women. Men do it sometimes, but women. When men, when men find the wife cheated, that the chances of them reconciling, it's like very rare. Like men. Oh, yeah. Like men are not >> likely to forgive. >> 99% of the time men are not forgiving it. It's over. Women are much more like the family, the connection, the long term.

>> But very often >> they're overestimating their ability to put it down. >> Like they're like, "Okay, I can put this down. The family's important. The kids are important. The finances are important. Things are important. I'll put it down. I'll put it down." Well, what they're really saying is, "I'll push it down. I'll push it down. I'll push it down." And you know what? Like, push a balloon underwater, see what happens. It just, you know, it's, it's not going to happen and it's going to just come up some other way. And so what happens is there's this seething animosity, anger, resentment. And very often it manifests in a, "Well, you know what? Like, he could do it. Why not me? Like, you know what? It didn't mean anything for him. Great. Doesn't mean anything for me either. Oh, I, I have to be big enough to forgive him, but he shouldn't have to forgive me." By the way, the human, the human desire for revenge, I completely understand.

>> I think it's a terrible idea. >> Revenge is, you know, start by digging two graves. Like, you're reaching into hot coals to throw them at the other person. You may or may not hit them. You'll definitely burn the [ __ ] out of yourself. But >> I understand, but it's not a good idea, right? That's why if there is going to be a move on from infidelity, the hard part is you don't want to blame the victim. You don't want to blame the person who was the victim of infidelity, >> but you have to go, hey, what went wrong in this marriage? How did we create the? Because all society is going to tell you is, he's a cheater. He's a piece of [ __ ]. She's a cheater. She's a piece of [ __ ]. Throw him out. Throw him in the trash. I don't think that makes people feel better. I really don't. I, it's a simple solution to a complex problem. So we love [ __ ] like that.

>> But I don't think it's honest. I think what you have to do is you have to, if you're gonna move on from it, you have to deconstruct what were the conditions that made this happen and how do we prevent that from happening future. Yeah. >> And what's both of our culpability in that and how do we both course correct for that so this doesn't happen in the future. >> And I think by the way, a lot of that is on the person who cheated. >> Like, it's on the person who cheated. You know, I was on Steve Harvey's show. So, I had a segment on there for, for a couple of years and, um, we used to take a lot of questions from the audience. And one of the questions came from the audience. I was stunned because it was so brave of this guy to acknowledge in a TV studio, but it was he and his wife. And she basically said, you know, he, he cheated a few years ago and, uh, I'm trying to figure out like, we've stayed together, we have kids, trying to figure it out, but I still have a really hard time like trusting him. And one of the things I said to him is I said, like, she shouldn't have to ask you where you are. Like, you, you did this thing. You hurt her and she forgave you. So you should get ahead of this. Like, you should be reassuring her. It's on you. >> Yes. >> Like, accept the fact that you [ __ ] up and accept the fact that now it's on you to reassure her. Like, she shouldn't have to chase you around. You should be getting out in front of this. And if you're not willing to do that, if she's willing to forgive you for this, but you're not willing to get out in front of it now and and repair, then you don't deserve that forgiveness. >> Yeah. >> Like, you're not worthy of that, and this thing's just going to crash again. I think the cheater, it's on them to do the heavy lifting. But I do think that the person who was cheated on has some responsibility to figure out, hey, what can we both do better?

>> I totally hear what you're saying. As far as I know, my husband hasn't cheated on me, but when we've got into >> I haven't heard anything. >> Thank you very much. Okay. Thank you. You got your, my, my ears behind the scenes. >> Yeah. Nope. I mean, [laughter] yep. Nothing. Nothing that I've heard. He's only said nice things. >> No. Um, when I think we have certain rules and there are moments where like, he's really hurt my feelings, right? Where he said something that just feels so offensive or he's done something. >> And in those moments, we've got rules where it's, we don't say we're sorry unless we actually mean it. So, there are moments where we've been in arguments and he's even turned around. He's like, "Baby, I love you so much. I know that if I just say, 'I'm sorry' right now that you'll feel so much better, but I will never lie to you." And so, right now, I, I'm sorry you feel this the way you do, but I'm not sorry of what I did because I still believe in it. So, we have that type of, "Never say you're sorry unless you actually mean it."

>> And then never forgive unless you actually mean it. And there was one moment in my relationship where I told him I needed him. And I don't often say that. I'm like, "Look, I need you." That's like our key word. >> And he had made a promise to something in business. And it was one of these conflicts where internally for him, he was like, "Which one's more important? My identity, the man that I want to be, or the thing that my wife is asking me?"

>> And >> and you know, like, it's not hard to choose between right and wrong. What's hard is to choose between the right or two wrongs. >> Yes. >> And that's what he was in right there. And he basically said, "I really want to be there for you, but you're asking me to, to, to change my identity." >> And in that moment, I was like, "If we don't work through this, I will say it's fine." And then two years later, three years later, I'm still feeling the sting and the burn of it, the carry, the push down that you were talking about. >> And so I became aware that this was one of those moments that it could happen. Right now. [music] He was like, "It's my identity." I was like, "Well, I'll never ask you to be someone you're not." And after, you know, five hours of intense talking and deep, deep like discussions, I was like, "You're right. >> You need to go." >> And I just let it go. And so when I think about the revenge, and you meant it. >> And I meant it a thousand percent. So when I think about the revenge thing, and as you saying, that's more women. The thing that actually breaks my heart more is that the woman has tried to push something down that she's not actually ever healed from. >> Yeah. >> And then [clears throat] she goes and lowers the bar of who she is >> to try and feel a certain way of the revenge. Like you said, it feels good.

>> But you know what's so interesting about what you just said, Lisa, and it's infused in a bunch of other things you said here, too. >> And, and I've heard it in things Tom says about you and your marriage, too. You guys have found this really interesting balance between the simplicity and the complexity. >> Like, it's simple. You're my favorite person. I'm your favorite person. Let's do this thing. But it's also like what you just said shows like a real understanding. Like even what you just said about an apology where Tom said, you know, "I, I want so bad to like have this be over and say I'm sorry, but I, I made a promise I'm not going to say I'm sorry unless I'm genuinely sorry, and I'm not sorry right now."

>> In that interaction between the two of you, there's so much complexity because first of all, you guys have identified that there are multiple kinds of apology. M >> There's like what I call the [ __ ] apology, which is, "I'm sorry you were so upset." >> Oh, yeah. >> That's not even an apology. It's worse than an apology. Like, just say nothing if that's your apology because what you're saying is, "I'm sorry you got so upset." Like, "I'm sorry for your emotional state." Basically, I'm insulting your reaction. Right? Versus a real apology, which is, "Here's what I did that hurt you.

>> I see it. Why am I identifying it? Because if I just go, "All right, I'm sorry for what?" Are you apologizing for the right thing? >> Yeah. >> Because when you say, "I'm sorry I didn't clean up those dishes." I'm not mad about the dishes. >> It's, "I'm sorry that my behavior demonstrated that you are low on my list of priorities and that something that's important to you isn't important to me and that I don't see you." It's not about the dishes, it's about what the dishes symbolize. Right? So this conflict was not about what is he doing that day or what is it you needed that day. It was about where am I in your priorities. >> Yes. >> So a great apology is, "Here's what I did and I shouldn't have done it and I'm really sorry I did it and I won't do it again."

>> Like, "I know it hurt you and I know I didn't mean to hurt you and I don't want to hurt you because you're my favorite person." >> And I love you and I'm not going to do that again. I'm sorry." Right? That's a real apology. But you're acknowledging again the complexity of like, even the problem itself that he was like, "Hey, I, you love me and me is a guy who like shows up." >> And you're asking me to not show up. So you're asking me to kill the guy you love." >> Yes. >> "You're asking me to stop being the guy you love." You know, it's, it's such a funny thing. I've always thought it was, you know, if you remember like the old western movies, >> you know, where like the, the, the villain comes to town and he's terrorizing the town and like the gunslinger like loves this woman, but he knows he's got to go into the town and take on this guy and his gang. So, he knows like, this is impossible odds. He's probably going to never make it. And he says to her, "I love you and I'm leaving." And he walks out because he's going to meet potentially his fate. And she runs out. She goes, "Don't go. Please don't go. Just stay here." If he went, "Yeah, you're right." And went [laughter] back.

>> He's not the hero anymore. >> No, you're right. >> What he's supposed to do is he says, he kisses her and he says, "I love you so much and if I never come back, know that I loved you." >> And then he goes and does the mission. >> And if he just did that, you're right. Yeah, let's just stay home. Like, >> you're not the hero anymore. >> So, what Tom did in that was have the strength to know like, "No, no, I, I know the man you love and I want to be that man, and I want to show up for you." But see, that's the conversation I bet you had where he really was able to express, "This is nothing to do with you being lower on the list of priorities. This has everything to do with I want to be a man of integ." Like, integrity is clearly really important to you as a partner. >> Yes. >> So, I, I think your handling of that makes a lot of sense to me as a couple, but it required a very, again, this balance between simplicity and complexity. And that's the whole thing.

>> Oh, >> thank you for breaking that down. Um, I now have some rapid fire questions. You down for it? All right. I had a lot of fun writing these. >> All right. Good. I can't wait. >> Okay. Rapid fire. It's a game I'm calling, "Who's More Likely?" >> Okay. >> So, men or women? You ready? >> Fun. Y. >> Who's more likely to see themselves as the victim and not take accountability when the marriage ends? [sighs and gasps] >> Boy, they both do this in different measure. If I had to say, women. All right. Who's more likely to move money around or hide things financially before filing for divorce?

>> Men. Men, for sure. Men are, men are way more snide and tactical when it comes to money. Men still are primarily the breadwinners. Men still maintain a certain. And women, by the way, are very quick to just go, "Yeah, I don't really want to be involved in that. You take care of that." It's okay. We don't have to do the same things. Like a 50-50 marriage doesn't have to be that we do the exact same things. It could be like, if I am the provider and the breadwinner and I pay all the bills and you create a beautiful home for the two of us, take care of our children, create, we're both making out like bandits in that transaction. [laughter] It's amazing. Like, are you, are you both happy? Do either of you feel you're being taken advantage of? No. Then everybody else can shut up. >> So, you don't need to know everything about the finances if you don't enjoy knowing something about the finances, but you should know like, where is our money primarily? If something happened to you, who would I call? What would I do? Where are the accounts? What bills get paid on a regular basis? So, that's a, a blind spot in a lot of women that when intimacy gets weaponized, men exploit it effectively.

>> Makes sense. All right. Number three. Who's more likely to leave the marriage for the person they cheated with? >> [sighs] >> Gosh, I'm gonna say men and women both for different reasons. For the soulmate thing, men. >> Like men are way too quick to go, "She's the greatest." It's like, "No, she's not, dude. She just looks really good in a skirt. Like, that's all. Like, you just, you just, no, you just can't be alone. You're just bad at being alone." Like, it's not, you met your soulmate. Like, men >> exponentially remarry much [clears throat] faster after divorce. Like, by an order of magnitude. It's like almost triple. >> Oh, >> yeah. Women, they leave often because they didn't cheat until they found the soft place to land, >> right? >> Yeah. >> So, when they do, >> when they do, it's with someone who's really appealing and really connected and it's like a real, it's a real thing. It's not just the like, random penis around the corner. It's more like, "Oh, I really felt this deep connection with this person." That's where like the trope of like the tennis instructor, the personal trainer. It's like a guy who she's spent a lot of time with and feels a connection and affinity with and like, there's some depth of connection before they cheat. >> And so that sometimes leads to a new relationship.

>> Makes sense. Um, all right. Number four. Who's more likely to be emotionally checked out way before the other person even realizes there's a problem? >> God, these are hard because there's, I have ex, I've been doing this so long that I've seen so many examples of both. But if I have to pick, if I have to pick, I would say women. Because women sometimes are so easily distracted by the other things that tie you together in the marriage >> that they just are like, "Yeah, I'm checked out of the marriage between us, but I'm still checked into the marriage as an ecosystem. I'm still about the kids. I'm still about your mom." Mom. Like, like I've had, I've had women who like, they know their husband was cheating on them and they still buy his mother a Christmas present. Like, they still remember, "Oh, it's your parents' anniversary. Remember, we should send." It's like, "Dude, >> how are you not waiting at home with a gun for him right now?" And they're like, "Well, look, it doesn't >> His mom didn't do anything wrong." >> Like, you know, like there's, there's a rationality to some degree that you go like, "Oh, you, you realize this is part of a bigger plan, like a bigger picture." So, she's more likely, even if she's emotionally checked out, to still kind of run the family. >> Run the family, do the things. Like women, >> this is going [clears throat] to be a hot take. Here it comes. Don't kill me in the comments. Um, I have a theory about women and men. I haven't said it out loud. I'm going to say it out loud for the first time. So, I have a theory that almost everything about like major differences in relationship between men and women can be traced back to women getting their period. Go with me on this. So, here's a great trope that's that's safe. I'm like, "Any man, when I get a head cold, I'm dying." [laughter] "I'm, I'm just dying. Just go on without me. I'm dying. I've never, no one's ever been this ill. I'm so sick." Okay. Every, you're laughing because it is such [laughter] a thing. It's so true. Okay, here's the thing. >> Yeah. >> Women from a quite young age learned the following lesson. You're going to be uncomfortable roughly every 28 days and you still have to get [ __ ] done. >> Oh. Uhhuh. >> So, the fact that you're uncomfortable, you still have to operate under those conditions. You don't get to say, "I have cramps. I'm going to be staying home for the next two days." You don't get to do that. You get told early on, "Yeah, you're uncomfortable. Sorry. You're going to be uncomfortable. This happens." Okay. So, one, you learn how to operate when you're unc uncomfortable. Okay? >> Two, you actually have to plan ahead. >> Like a woman getting her period, like from a fairly young age, you have to be like, "Okay, I have to bring sanitary products. I have to think about, oh, if, if I'm planning a thing, I don't want to plan it for this particular week because probably that's where I'll be in my cycle." And if you're really thinking ahead, you're like, "Oh, we're doing this. I want to do that when I'm ovulating because I'll be really fun and I'll be really into it." Like, so you have to plan. So, I think that that thing at such a young age creates like certain habits of thought like a willingness to be uncomfortable and still push through and operate, a planning ahead of things, a realizing that like your body and your emotional state are going to fluctuate sometimes due to circumstances beyond your control and you just have to ride with it. Like men don't have anything like that. We're uncomfortable even for a second and we're like, "Well, this is broken. >> This is done. There's something seriously wrong." So, that's the reason why like, I, I think a lot of men the minute something's gone uncomfortable in their marriage, you're like, "What? We're done. Roll up the sle. We're done. We're finished. This is it. It's wrong." And it's like, "No, no, you got to be, you got a cold. You're going to be all right." >> I wasn't sure if men though would actually be, "Well, I can't complain." Men almost go silent. >> Yeah. But that silence is not silence and I'm fine. It's like, "Oh, I'm gonna suffer in silence. I'm not going to share it with anybody to let the the steam off that valve. >> And I'm just going to let it eat me alive." Like, why do you think men, you know, self-delete at an order of magnitude greater than women? Because men just turn all that hatred inside of themselves. Yeah. They, they, they turn themselves, they turn that hatred inward or they turn it outwards to violence, right? Like, there's nothing else to set on fire. They burn themselves up. Like, that's what happens. Whereas again, learning how to operate when really uncomfortable is something that again, from a young age, women learn to do. >> So that's my hot take theory. >> I don't hate it. Okay. There feels like there's a lot of truth to a lot of what you said. And I often will go back to, well, why do we do that? Right? And it's like, evolution and then what we were taught when we were younger that leads to us acting now. So that actually feels very good. Yeah. >> Yeah. All right. I, I don't know. I hadn't thought it all the way through. >> No, it felt good. Really good. There we go. >> Um, all right. And we got the last one. Who's more likely? Who's more likely to want to save the marriage even after the other person has asked for a divorce? >> Women. >> Really? >> Yeah. By, by a pretty high order of magnitude. Yeah. Women >> consistently. Women are are willing to fight for a marriage more. >> Like, I, I'm actually often kind of stunned by what women put up with. Like, I, I >> I've jokingly said in my office like, "Man, like I didn't real, like I'll sometimes be talking to a woman about the history of her marriage because I'm putting it together in litigation papers and I'll just, the person will leave and I'll like look at my staff and I'll be like, Jesus, I have been way too worried about my behavior in relationships. Like, women will let you just get away with murder because you, you listen to the history of the marriage and you're like, you know, "Oh, and then he cheated on me with this person." You're like, "Okay." And then like, "Yeah, and then this happened and then he took all of our money and he spent this." But I, I let it go. And and you're, you're listening to it and again, I'm not blaming the victim, but you're like, "And then you had two more kids with him." Like, you just, like, there's a lot of like forgiving >> that you go like, almost, wow. Like, I don't know if that's to be admired or pathological. Like, giving someone some grace, being empathetic, like these are good traits, but if someone has just consistently failed you in utterly predictable ways and every time you set the nanny trap at, you know, like every time you go, "Let's test this," they fail the test colossally. Like, winners never quit and quitters never win. But if you never win and you never quit, you're an idiot. [laughter] Like, at some point you have to go, "Oh no, this was like, yeah, we gotta, we gotta, we got to call the game here." You know? So in my experience, women, you know, will put up with a lot. But to throw Shakespeare in the mix, like, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." >> Yeah, that's >> They'll put up with a lot >> and they'll absorb a lot of punishment and they'll absorb a lot of pain. >> And then when they go, "Okay, that's it now." Watch out. >> Like, watch out. Like I have had some stuff come out of women I represent's mouth that they're like, "No, let's do this." And I'm like, "Oh, that's cold." Like, you are, wow. And actually a funny PS to that is, you know, now that marriage equality has been the law of the land for a while, do a lesbian divorce sometime. [sighs and gasps] >> It's two women. >> Bad rough. >> It's two women scorned. >> Oh, snap. >> It's got double the women's scorn. >> Oh, >> that's a war. >> Double the heat. >> That's a war. That is. You have. That I've, I've seen. I've done a couple of them now. >> Wow. It was double the intensity of emotion and like the woman's scorned feeling and they both felt they were scorned. So I would definitely say like, yeah, women on that one.

>> Wow. All right. So now this is something new that I'm doing. I'm just getting a community question from my community because they're so dedicated. They show up. They comment. And so I chose one. We did a poll. This one was upvoted. So, um, this is from Louisa Martin 2689. Should you always discuss divorce before marriage? I think it's a great question. I would say yes. I would say yes. >> Yeah. >> I, I think with the numbers being what they are, I don't think we do ourselves any favors by taking an ostrich approach to things and hiding from issues. [snorts] >> I think that it is the worst time to try to talk about how to fight is when you're in a fight. Mhm. >> Like, I think it would be very responsible at the beginning of a relationship when you're getting along and there's an abundance of goodwill to say to each other, "Hey, we're going to get in a fight." Probably be my fault. I'll probably say something stupid. I say a lot of stupid things. When we get in a fight, do you need a minute? Should I give you like a minute and like let you calm, or are you the like, "No, we got to figure this out before we can't go to bed angry." Like, I think one of the greatest things you could say before a marriage is, "I want to be good at this. How, how can I be good at this? Help me be good at this." Like, like it's why I've said, even if you don't get a prenup, having a conversation about what would we put in our prenup, I think is an incredibly important exercise in a couple. But even if you don't have a prenup, having a conversation about, "If this ends, what does it look like?

>> What do I owe you? What do you owe me?" And by the way, I think that could be an incredibly romantic conversation. Like, I think there's something so beautiful about acknowledging our flaws as human beings. Like, there's a line in a Prince song from the album, Sign of the Times, song called "If I Was Your Girlfriend." And it's a song sung by a man to his girlfriend. And the lines like, you know, "Would you let me dress you or pick out your clothes before we went out? Not that you're helpless, but sometimes that's what being in love's about."

>> And one of the lines is, "If I was your girlfriend, would you run to me if somebody hurt you, even if that somebody was me?" And I think there's something so beautiful about that lyric because why wouldn't you say to someone at the beginning of this long journey together, "If this ends, like it's going to end, by the way, like, but if this ends in something other than death, what do we owe each other? Like, what would you need to feel safe?" Like, because I, I would never want someone to stay married to me because they didn't want to get divorced. >> Why? Why? >> Like, if you said to me, you know, "Tom and I, we've built abundance with all of our successes and I don't want to give half of it away. So, we're really working on this marriage."

>> That's crazy. >> Like, I, I want you to be married to me because your life is better with me in it. You find joy and value in our connection. Like, that's why you stay married. You stay married because I love this person. At the end of my life, I'm going to be able to say, "This person helped me become the most authentic version of myself." Like, what better thing could you say at the end of a life than, "This person helped me become me. They helped me become the best version of me." Like, that's the most beautiful sentiment in the world. It's worth working for. Why wouldn't you upfront say, "If I hurt you, if I failed you, if this, God forbid, ends, what would you need? What could I do? What could I help? What could I do to make you feel safe in this relationship so we both know we don't have to be here?" >> We want to be here. And I think that's what that question's about.

>> James freaking Sexton. Dude, this was amazing. As good as I thought you so long. But oh my god, I, I literally >> You know, honestly, if you told me we've been talking for like 45 minutes, I would believe it. But I guess it's been a lot longer. >> It has been a lot longer. >> Dude. Where can people find you, your book, YouTube channel, and everything that you're doing? >> So, uh, you can find me on Instagram at nyc divorce lawyer. You can find my, my law firm at nycores.com. You can find my YouTube channel at sttonshow.com. Um, you can find my book on Amazon or any place else. Or if you want to listen to me talk for eight and a half hours, you can listen to this episode a few times or you can get [laughter] it on Audible or any place else because I recorded the audiobook. Um, and yeah, you can find me walking around New York City most of the time.

>> Amazing. Guys, guys, I've been trying to get this guy on for over two years. >> God, I hope it was worth it. What a build-up. >> It was so worth it. Oh my god. So worth it. >> It was all the foreplay that made it so good. Women like foreplay. There it is, you know. [laughter] >> [gasps] >> Guys, honestly, he spilled so many nuggets of gold today because let's face it, the truth is we want to have a life where we never need a man like him. That we have the skills, we have the tactics, we have the things. And literally, this is the book that you need in order to build those skill sets so that you can implement them in your relationship. Live the life that actually fills you up and that you never ever have to see a divorce lawyer ever in your life. Guys, please, please do go check out his book. Check him out. If you're not subscribed, smash that subscribe button down there. And until next time, be the hero of your own life. Peace.

>> That was so good. That was so good. >> If you want to make sure that you never get trapped in a failed or toxic dynamic, then you definitely don't want to miss this epic episode right here with the number one judge on Court TV, Judge Lin Tola. >> He's a liar. He's a cheat. He runs around on you. He's giving you an STD. My question is,