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Greetings, Namaste, Sat Sri Akal. Jugnu Nama will present you with a new perspective. Don't forget to like and subscribe in Urdu, English, and Punjabi. Today, we will talk about our Punjab, our birthplace, its traditions, its true history, and how our settlement was formed. With me today is Salman Rasheed Sahib. He possesses great knowledge because he has traveled extensively throughout his life, across this entire region and also in Hindustan. No one knows better than him who we are and where we came from. Salman, welcome. >> Thank you very much. >> Shall I start? Will you start? >> You start. >> Let's begin the discussion about old Punjab. >> How was Punjab formed? What was Punjab like? From Africa, humanity rose and reached this point. Tell us a little about how settlements began. >> What we first learn about is that we find evidence from about seven hundred thousand years ago, near the Soan River, which flows near Rawalpindi and falls into the Indus River. On the banks of that Soan, we find some traces of them. And once, Dr. Saif ur Rehman Dar told me that he was a very prominent archaeologist of that time. He told me that traces from that same period are also found in the Soon Valley. As you descend westward into the hills, traces of them are also found there. And seven to eight hundred thousand years ago, humans were living here. They were making tools. They were making weapons. >> They had also mastered fire. >> They had also lit fires. And these caves, which are called Allah Ditta Caves, are located between Pindi Gheb and near Gheb. From there too, we find that people lived there thousands, lakhs of years ago, and they used to light fires. >> They lived in caves. >> And there was a complete settlement there. >> Then, from here, you can see how old the population in Punjab is. >> Yes. >> After that, seven hundred thousand years ago, after that, Allah Ditta Caves, Allah Ditta Caves, which you are talking about, are near Pindi. >> That too, let's say, is from three to four hundred thousand years ago. >> After that, there is no increase in our information. >> We don't know what came to Punjab after that. There was settlement, people were living. After many hundred thousand years, we reach the banks of the Indus River valley, where the city of Harappa, Mohenjo-daro, was inhabited. But long before them, the city of Mehrgarh, which is in Balochistan, was inhabited. >> Start with Mehrgarh, Salman, and tell us how settlement began in Mehrgarh. >> Those who worked there, French and German teams, told us that these people from Mehrgarh came down from the mountains. >> From the Bolan Pass. >> Mehrgarh is located on the route of Bolan, at the lower end of Bolan. >> And a small river also flowed nearby. And as far as I know, they said that this city was settled because of that river. And it was a very pure city. And work should have been done on it, but then, due to the circumstances, nothing could be done from outside. >> Yes. >> And then, a few years ago, Yar Muhammad Rind also bulldozed it. He had enmity with Aslam Raisani. He said, if nothing else, I will at least tarnish this. >> Astaghfirullah, Yar Muhammad Rind Sahib was an MNA, a member of the National Assembly. Yar Muhammad Rind Sahib. >> And he had a conflict with Raisani Sahib, Nawab Raisani Sahib. >> And in their mutual conflict, they bulldozed Mehrgarh. >> Yes. >> There can be no greater dispute with history than this. >> No. >> What a huge criminal activity. >> Absolutely. >> Salman, we are talking about Mehrgarh, which is from 10,000 years ago, 10,000 years ago, 7,500 to 10,000 years ago. >> The settlement there gradually reached Mohenjo-daro and Harappa. Correct. >> We now call this the Harappan Civilization. >> And the peak of the Harappan Civilization was about 6,000 to 6,500 years ago. >> Exactly. >> Absolutely. >> What happened next? >> What happened next was that our cities... >> By the way, as we go, let me tell you one more thing. In Sindh, near Sukkur, there is a place called Mohenjo-daro. Research is being done there now, and it is being found that it is an older city than Mohenjo-daro. >> Ah, these cities were settled on the banks of rivers. Harappa was on the banks of the Ravi, Mohenjo-daro was on the banks of the Indus. >> And many thousands of years later, the poet of Delhi, Mirza Ghalib, wrote: "Sab kahoon kuchh, lala-o-gul mein numayan ho gayi, Khak mein kya surat-e-hogi, ki pinhan ho gayi." >> Which is hidden. >> And you don't know anything yet. >> Nothing. >> And today we are talking about those about whom we know a little. >> Yes. >> And tell us, these cities were inhabited only when they had something in their hands. >> Something in hand came only after agriculture, didn't it? Agriculture happened, accumulation happened, capital was formed, some surplus was created, some little money came into hand. >> And people established cities. And how did agriculture begin, Salman? Women started agriculture. >> Thank you very much, greetings, and thanks. >> And look, they were all wild plants growing. We humans did not invent them. They used to grow, people would pass by, eat them, and survive on them. >> Survival on hunting. >> Survival on hunting, or whatever they found while passing by, they ate. >> These are called hunter-gatherers. >> Yes. >> And when they started settling in one place, women also started sowing seeds in small areas, and then they grew. And cities, when... >> When fields were made. >> Fields were made, cities started to be built. Harappa was built, or that city near Sukkur, which was found more than a thousand years ago, and how were they destroyed? >> They used to tell us that the Aryans came and they caused destruction. The Aryans did not cause destruction. They did come from outside, from Kazakhstan. >> But this city of Harappa was destroyed because the Ravi river, on which it was located, dried up, the water went away, the city was destroyed. Mohenjo-daro was destroyed by the floods of the Indus. >> When the floods came. >> Floods came, and then they were destroyed. >> Let me tell you, where we are sitting, this is our ancestral mansion. It is more than 300 years old. And today, thanks to Salman, he has come here with us, and we are talking here. And this place, its name is Shergarh. It is a very ancient place. And the first thing Salman said when he came to the mansion was, "This mansion is built on a mound." I said, "Yes, we have built it." And it is the highest place, the highest place in this village. And nearby is also the tomb of our ancestor. And he said, "There must be many settlements under this mound," because wherever there are mounds in Punjab, there are settlements beneath them, thousands of years of civilization, meaning settlements. >> That is why we are recording this program from here. >> Yes, Salman. And when the cities of the Indus River were destroyed, about 500 to 1000 years after that, the Aryans came here, didn't they? >> Yes, they must have started coming because they kept coming. >> They kept coming in waves. >> 1500 years, and the environment. >> That was the time when they kept coming in waves. >> And they used to come from Southern Russia and Southern Kazakhstan. >> Absolutely. >> And their settlement was in open plains. >> Absolutely. >> And there was only grazing there, no agriculture. >> Right? There were no crops there. >> And they were cattle herders. >> And they used to survive on their animals, on their livestock. >> And whatever they got from the livestock, they used to eat and drink. They used to eat the meat of the livestock, drink the milk of the livestock, eat butter, ghee, etc. And tall. >> Their bodies were infested with parasites. >> And when I understand, my little knowledge is that when the season changes, >> And the herds of livestock start migrating. They know before humans that the season is changing here, and we should move on. When they started migrating from there, humans had to follow them. >> Right? And when they started migrating from there, these Aryans, these were the people who first domesticated horses in the world. >> Ah. >> Horses were not domesticated by anyone before. They domesticated horses. >> They domesticated horses, and the wheel, >> its invention had also happened. And with the wheel and horses, chariots were made, and carts. Sitting in chariots and carts, they used to travel. Now, when we travel by jet supersonic flight, we say you can reach London from New York like this. >> At that time, coming from Southern Kazakhstan to Punjab, >> on a chariot, it became a relatively easy task. Ordinary people started coming, month after month, they kept coming. But they didn't bring their baggage with them, because they preferred to travel light. >> And they didn't bring their women with them, meaning they left their wives behind. >> And they would tell them, "I'll be back soon. Don't worry, I'll come back next year." How many came back? They kept coming here and stayed. And they had to settle down with the local women. >> This is how it happened. Listen to one thing. One thought came to my mind. Those women they left behind, did they not become Amazons? >> It's possible. >> Because they also used to drink ghee and milk from livestock, and eat the meat of livestock. >> Doing that, they reached the Herots, and later the Greeks. >> Who knows? >> Who knows? Who knows? They must have done it too, right? >> And when they came here, and whatever their religion was, their faith was, when they came here, and the religion they saw here, they also started adopting it. They did not engage in much bloodshed and murder. >> Yes, yes, absolutely. >> You see Mark Conboy's book, "The Indus Civilization." On its cover, that deity is sitting in the posture of Shiva. >> Exactly like that. >> Right? >> Absolutely. >> The peepal tree is also there. >> The peepal tree is also there. >> Lions and tigers are also standing behind him. >> That is Lord Shiva himself. >> Lord Shiva himself. >> He was worshipped in Mohenjo-daro before. And when they came, they liked him very much. He was a great hero. >> A great heroic deity. >> But Salman, the thing is, when our mothers were from such a settlement, >> whom they married, whom they loved. >> Yes. >> And did they leave their settlement and tell stories to their children? When a child was born, those same things would come out of their hearts, wouldn't they? >> Just like today, people give the call to prayer in the ears of children, at that time mothers raised their children according to their religion. >> And that religion was ingrained in their children. >> In the same way, their religion also formed. >> And what they brought from there, >> that also merged with it. >> Right. I want to tell you, I also read a very interesting book by David Reich, a geneticist at Harvard University. And he is the head of the Harvard School of Genetics. He wrote a book in which he researched the DNA of all of North India. >> In fact, he also researched the DNA of other parts of the world. As you know, DNA doesn't lie. >> And he discovered that the specific DNA of Punjab and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, across North India, across North India. >> Meaning from Kolkata to there. >> Our DNA, our Y chromosome, which comes from our father. >> All Southern Russian steppe people. >> Ah. >> Southern Russian steppe people, Aryans. >> Which we were just talking about. The Y chromosome, the father's DNA. >> And the mitochondrial DNA, meaning the mother's. >> All from the ancient Indus Valley Civilization. >> Wow. >> And you know, this is scientifically proven. We talk about the two-nation theory sometimes, sometimes the RSS people say that the Aryans are indigenous to this land, born here, and somehow spread throughout the world. >> Oh, leave it. >> Those ego-centric minds of ours are not letting us move forward. >> In the time of the Aryans, this region was called Sapta Sindhu. >> Yes. >> Right. This means the land of the Indus and six or seven rivers, Punjab, at that time. >> Right. It included the Indus, which was called Sindhu, and the Vitasta, which we now call Jhelum. >> And what was the name of the Chenab then? >> Asikni. >> It was Asikni, later Chandrabhaga. In the Mahabharata, it is Chandrabhaga. >> And it is in the Rigveda, Asikni. >> Yes. >> Ah, and the Ravi's name was Iravati. >> Iravati. >> It was Iravati then, and it was Iravati in the Mahabharata too. And later, people, being lazy, couldn't say Iravati fully. >> And those lazy people said, "Make it Iravati Ravi." >> They made it Ravi. >> And the seven rivers, including the Ghaggar, which is also called Saraswati. >> And Sutlej too. >> Sutlej too. >> Ah, the Beas. >> Ah, this flows near us. Even today, the people here in Shergarh and all the people of the Depalpur district, Okara. >> This Beas, which is called Beas in Urdu and Hindi, we call it Vyaha here. >> Vyaha. >> Vyaha. >> Even today, we say Vyaha. >> And Vyastha, Vyaha, it's the same word. >> And these were the seven rivers, and Sapta Sindhu, >> this was the confluence of Punjab. >> And when the Aryans came here and saw rivers everywhere. >> Yes. >> And fertile fields. And the local people here knew how to build carts. >> Yes. >> And they knew how to harvest. >> They were prosperous. >> And they also knew how to cook and eat. >> And then their settlement was formed with these people. >> And they, because they were tall, armed, with horses, chariots, and carts, made themselves rulers. >> Aha. >> And they made the others subjects. >> Ah. >> And what kind of settlement did they form? And the cities of the Harappan Civilization, they had straight streets, sewage, and all that. And what was their settlement like? >> Look, they used to live in carts, and wherever they stopped, when night fell, the chief's cart would be parked, and around it, the ministers, nobles, wealthy people, their armies would follow. Tents and their carts would be parked. >> And when they came here, they lived like this. And our cities were going towards ruin at that time. >> And when they started building their cities, they grew organically. And then, of course, winding roads and streets were also formed. >> And in the middle, the chief's chariot. >> Yes. >> And winding paths around. >> Winding paths from above. >> One market became for cobblers. One market became for goldsmiths, for jewelers. One market became for potters. For leather work. One became for cobblers. Like this. >> Cities were built in winding paths. Cities were built. And then we forgot how those cities used to be. Then look, if you go another two and a half thousand years ahead, after Alexander left, and the era of Chandragupta Maurya also ended, Ashoka passed away, the empire weakened, and the Indo-Greeks came from there. >> You have skipped many thousands of years. >> Ah, yes. Let me finish the discussion. >> I just want to talk about cities. When they came, they said in Taxila, "This old city with winding roads, we don't like it. Let's establish a new city. Its name will also be Taxila." They established a new Taxila about a kilometer away. We call it Sirkap today. You can see its roads. >> Straight. >> Aligned on cardinal points. Meaning, what we were doing 8,000 years ago, the Aryans came and made us forget. Then the Greeks came and taught us. >> Salman, we are talking about the arrival of the Aryans. >> Yes. >> Of the Indus, of Sapta Sindhu, of its civilization. We are talking about settlement, and we are talking about, if I mistake not, 3000 to 4000 years ago. >> We are talking about 3000 to 4000 years ago. >> And on the banks of these rivers, the Rigveda was written, and other Vedas were also written here. Right. >> And Hinduism was formed on the banks of the rivers of our Punjab. >> Yes, absolutely. >> Talk a little about this. >> Look, if you just read about the Indus in the Rigveda, there is a whole hymn about the Indus. It is so moving that it gives you goosebumps. >> It gives you goosebumps. >> Yes, it gives you goosebumps. It says, "O Indus, in the English translation I read, it says, like a dappled mare, a horse." >> Wow. >> Galloping. >> Galloping horse, it flows. It flows like a horse. The writer sometimes makes it male, sometimes female. >> And he says that its seven rivers run towards it like thirsty, hungry calves running towards their mother cow. >> Wow. >> And what imagery he has created! In English, it is so lively. I don't know what it must be like in Sanskrit. >> Their language was Sanskrit or Prakrit. >> Those who were educated, they must have spoken Sanskrit. The variations of Prakrit, languages like Punjabi or Pashto, I think we can call them Prakrit. >> And the name of our Punjab, before Sapta Sindhu, from the time of the ancient Sindhi settlement, was Meluha. >> Yes. That is known from the second of Sargan and its evidence is great. >> That I am such a great king that the ships of Meluha dock at my ports. >> Punjab. >> Ah. And the Vedas were written sitting on the banks of the Chenab, Jhelum, and Ravi. Right. >> And how was their religion formed, and what was that religion? >> I think it was a very inclusive religion. There was no exclusion in it, unlike how Hinduism is today. It must have been a little different. >> Because Salman, the Brahmanical order, >> that came later. That's not even 2000 years old. >> Yes, yes. What is understood as Hinduism today, the Brahmanical order, just like Islam, our religion was something else before, and when the Maulvis came and created something else. Similarly, Brahmins are the Maulvis of Hinduism. >> Yes, absolutely. And it was a very inclusive religion because before the Brahmanical order, if you look, there was no fighting with anyone on the basis of religion. When Alexander came here, then he came a little further. >> And his general, Nearchus, tells us about Taxila that people of three religions live here. One, Buddhism. >> Followers of the Buddha. >> Buddhism. One group is those who leave their dead in the forest for wild animals to eat. That is, Zoroastrianism. And the third group is the Brahmins. >> And he says all three. >> They burn their dead. >> Yes. They are living together happily. He did not mention any conflict at all. Rather, in Taxila, he also wrote that people here are educated. Taxila was famous for this reason because there were two universities in India, one in the east. >> Yes. >> And ours. >> In Punjab. >> Both in Punjab. >> Both, yes. >> Look. >> Right? >> Look. Like this. >> And we were very educated people. And he says that when business was done here, there was no witness, no written record, and no case of fraud in their courts. They were honest people. >> Oh my! If he saw it here today, >> he would die of shock seeing today's situation. >> Also, he says that when these people leave their homes, they don't lock them. >> Yes, they just close the door. >> They just close the door. >> And that's it. >> And it means, I don't know what kind of people we were, and what we have become now. >> What have we become? >> Okay, let's go back to that. The Rigveda was written there, in Punjab. >> Mahabharata was written by Vyas, who was a resident of Taxila. >> Who wrote it for the first time. >> Not wrote it, but who created the grammar of Sanskrit. He >> was from Taxila, absolutely. >> And Salman, on the banks of our rivers, the Rigveda was written. You talked about how many prominent people emerged from Taxila, how they enhanced and refined the settlement. And now, we have to skip many thousands of years because we don't know the information in between. We are blind about it. We come to 325 BCE, meaning exactly 2500 years ago. >> When Alexander the Great came to Hindustan, he kept defeating Darius, he kept defeating so-and-so, and when he reached Punjab, he was stopped. >> Now you will tell us about this. >> This is a very big thing. People say he was defeated. He was not defeated. Alexander was defeated by our ancestors. But look, Alexander's most reliable history is that of the Aryans. His >> historian, who came with him, >> came after him. His foundation of knowledge and information is based on the letters that were present at that time, which Alexander wrote to Aristotle, to his mother, all of that was there. And he wrote his book on that foundation, 250 years after Alexander. >> Ah. He says, the way he talks about King Puru, in Alexander's 11-year campaign, he doesn't talk about any other king or emperor like that. He compares him to Darius. He says, this man was different from Darius, who ran away every time. He stood his ground. >> Stood his ground. Stood his ground. And he then describes in full how bravely he fought. And until then, he kept firing arrows from his elephant at the Greeks until his entire army was scattered. And then what the Greeks did, they shot burning arrows at their elephants, and the elephants went mad and charged into their own army. >> Let's talk about this for our viewers. King Porus, whom we call Poru, >> was the king of the doab between the Chenab and the Jhelum. >> Absolutely. >> And the battle Alexander fought with Porus was also fought there. Alexander was first met by the king of Taxila, Ambhi. >> He surrendered to him. He bowed before him and said, "Sir, forgive me. I am not capable of fighting you. Please move on." >> And Alexander thought everyone was the same. >> Yes. >> And he went to Porus and said, "Did you also send Ambhi?" >> And told Ambhi, "Go and tell him to surrender his weapons too." >> And Porus said, "I don't even want to see Ambhi's face." >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> He is a traitor. >> Aha. >> And let him not come near me. >> And when he sent Ambhi back, Alexander realized that he would have to fight him. >> And then Alexander had to attack again. And Poru fought a great battle. >> And Alexander thought that if they killed his son, they would surrender. They killed his son mercilessly, the Greeks. >> King Porus's son. >> He also fought a great battle. >> Yes. >> But Poru did not surrender his weapons. He did not admit defeat. He kept fighting. >> Take the story forward. >> Let me tell you something from before. When he had to cross the Tigris, there was an army of two hundred thousand in front, Darius's army. >> You are talking about Mesopotamia, Iraq now. >> I am talking about Iraq. >> Yes, yes. >> Tigris means Tigris. >> And Alexander's general, Parmenion, who had also served his father. Parmenion told Alexander, "We have 30-35 thousand soldiers. This is a two-lakh army. I say we should launch a night attack." And Alexander said, "I don't steal victory." >> Wow. >> Yes. And Parmenion said. >> Parmenion said, "If I were Alexander, I would make a night attack." And Alexander was also very quick-witted. He said, "If I were Parmenion, so would I." >> That's the point. >> Yes. You, you, you. And I, I. That's the point. >> Here, when he came, there were 25,000 soldiers in front, and Alexander had 35,000. And he launched a night attack. He forgot that. He stole his victory. >> He stole his victory from Poru. >> Yes, yes. He attacked in broad daylight. >> Ah. >> Attack. >> And then what would Poru do to him? >> And then look, he deployed that army there too, where Harnpur is now. He deployed the army in front. And he told all the detachments to light fires and do this as if the attack is today and we will cross the river today. And they crossed the river from where it is now called Jalalpur, Jalalpur Sharif. And King Porus had also divided his army. His son was ahead, with him. And he had only 500 men. Alexander took a large army. That boy was martyred. >> Oh dear. >> And then the king came here with his army. And he fought a very pure battle. >> He fought a very pure battle. Face to face. >> Stood firm. >> And Aryan, who writes, he had many rivals, many enemies. How many did Alexander defeat? He doesn't talk about anyone like this. What he wrote about him, and he also said that this was a man, he was not like Darius, who ran away every time. >> Yes. >> He fought standing. >> And the Greek armies, they shot poisonous arrows and burning arrows at our elephants, the elephants of Punjab. And with that, the elephants went mad and trampled their own armies. >> Aha. >> This is how they looted the battle. >> And then. >> Yes. >> And look, Aryan writes that King Porus kept showering arrows on the Greeks from his elephant until every unit of his was scattered. >> He kept fighting. >> He kept fighting. >> Until the end. >> Until the very end. And on his right shoulder, because he was not wearing armor there, to pull the bowstring, this shoulder was used. This shoulder was wounded, and his whole arm was bleeding. >> And then he first sent Ambhi, and he struck Ambhi with a spear, saying, "Get out of here." >> Yes. >> Then Alexander sent a philosopher to him, whose name, I don't know, was Meeru or what. And he was also King Poru's teacher. He sat with him. And Aryan writes that before sitting in his blood, he asked for water to drink. Then he came to Alexander. And there, the famous exchange happened. >> Yes. >> How do you want to be treated? >> Yes. >> He said, "As kings treat kings. As rulers treat rulers." >> Yes. >> Treat me as a king. >> And Alexander replied, "You have answered for yourself. Ask for something for yourself too." He said, "My answer includes everything. There is no need for further discussion." >> Wow. >> And Salman, isn't it injustice that we don't consider Poru our brother, our hero? We worship Alexander. >> Aha. Ask anyone, "Name your son Poru." They won't. They'll say, "We want to name him Alexander." They don't want to name him Poru. He was a Muslim. Like Alexander, his uncle was a Muslim. >> Absolutely. Which Alexander was a Muslim? Look, this is our tragedy in Punjab. >> A big one. >> That we don't accept our heritage. We don't want to speak our mother tongue. We will speak broken Urdu and broken English. >> And the values we want to give to our children, they come only through the mother tongue. >> Respect your parents, have mercy in your hearts, >> take care of your family. >> These qualities, honor, respect, all these things come through the mother tongue. >> And if you don't want to speak your mother tongue, teach your children whatever you want in English. And don't cry tomorrow. >> That we don't understand anything. >> They don't even ask us. They leave their Sant and walk away in old age. >> These values are all with the mother tongue. And speaking the mother tongue is necessary. And accepting your heritage is necessary. And seeing your true reality, your history, in the light is also necessary. >> Yes, absolutely. >> And this is the purpose of our program. >> After Alexander, Poru was made a satrap here and left. >> Right. >> And he went back. Then he died in Babylon. Did the Multanis also ruin him on the way? >> What did the Multanis do to Alexander? Tell us. >> That, there, Alexander was in a hurry to demolish the fort quickly. >> Yes. >> And they put the ladder outside for the assault, and Alexander jumped inside. He went in himself. >> And there, an arrow hit him in the side, on the right side. >> Yes. >> And he fell. >> And when they, look, the Greeks had traveled a long way. They got scared, "If the king dies here, we will be ruined. They will not spare us." >> Yes. >> And they quickly jumped inside, and they took him. Then they demolished the fort. And Alexander had a slight wound in his lung, and blood was also coming from his mouth, but his physicians and doctors treated him. After that, he went and died there. The Multanis say that he died from our arrow. I said, "Your arrow was also slow, just like you are slow. It took him three years to die." He died three years later. And he had a fever there, who knows what happened. Some research also suggests that he was poisoned. >> And the one who poisoned him was Roxana. >> Roxana. >> And they confronted. The Multanis did not just lie down like that. They did not surrender like Ambhi. >> They put up a complete fight. >> A complete fight. >> And injured him well, and sent him away. And they were fed up, weren't they, with Punjab? And all those soldiers said, "Look, our hands are not tied. Take us with you. We will not fight anymore." >> That's when the rebellion happened at the Beas. That was the reason: "Enough is enough. We are tired of fighting." And from where? From the battle with King Porus. >> They got a taste of Punjab there. What could happen to them further? >> So, look, Salman, the conqueror of the whole world, we Punjabis drove him away. >> Absolutely. >> We don't remember this. >> We should remember these things. >> Absolutely. >> After Alexander, who ruled the land of Punjab? >> Chandragupta Maurya. And such a great emperor. From Pataliputra, Patna, to Kabul, Bamiyan, that Parwan, all of Kandahar, his entire empire. These ignorant people sometimes say, the Afghans, that Punjab up to the Jhelum was our possession. For how many years? >> Ah. >> During the time of that bandit Abdali. >> During that period. >> In the district. >> And the 200-year rule of the Punjabis here, they don't even talk about that. Give us Kandahar and Kabul too, we will make them humans. >> This is also a point. >> And Chandragupta Maurya laid the foundation of his rule. He was the founder of the Maurya dynasty. >> Absolutely. >> After him was his son, Bindusara. >> And Bindusara's son was the great Ashoka. The great Ashoka. >> He was a great man. >> Right? A very great person. >> And talk a little about him. >> He even took what he inherited from his grandfather and expanded it further. He had control over almost all of Afghanistan. >> At that time, we were followers of Buddhism. >> The whole of Punjab was Buddhist. >> Yes, absolutely. Sindh was Buddhist. >> All of Sindh was Buddhist. >> Yes. >> And tell us about this. >> We used to think that Taxila was the limit of Buddhism, that it did not go beyond that. But Dr. Saif ur Rehman Dar, an archaeologist, who has passed away, told me years ago that a Buddhist statue was found from Ramkot Fort, on the banks of the Jhelum River near Mangla. This means there was influence here too. And now Dr. Hamid, Chairman of the Archaeology Department, Punjab University, is doing some research. And he has brought us more evidence, showing that they have discovered Buddhist sites and are advancing this work. We know this. But if you go further, the Arabs tell us in '71 that the whole of Sindh was Buddhist. And look at how many large monasteries were built here. >> And this Gandhara culture, which is called Gandhara culture, was spread throughout our regions. >> And its culture, its art, its craftsmanship, is now world heritage. >> Yes. >> It is considered the heritage of the whole world. >> Among them, a very big name after Ashoka was that of Kanishka. >> Yes. >> And Kanishka, who was born in Peshawar, his birthplace was Peshawar. >> That's why he built such a large monastery there, on his order. >> Yes, yes, absolutely. And he was also a Central Asian, like the Aryans. >> He was also from there, but his empire was very large. It included Western China, it included the Central Asian Republics that exist now, a large part of West Asia, all of Afghanistan, all of Pakistan, and half of India. >> That was also included in Kanishka's empire. >> And what is your information about Kanishka? >> He was from the Kushan people. And since he became a Buddhist, he greatly promoted Buddhism. >> Before that, Buddhism had not gone beyond the borders of India. >> Yes. >> And because of Kanishka, he then created all his priests, Maulvis, and monks, and spread Buddhism even to Japan. >> Punjab. >> Salman, let's focus a little on Taxila, which is also called Takshashila. How did it become such an important city? >> Look, first of all, in 800 BCE, there was a university there. And what we call a residential university, it had hostels. People came from far and wide to study there. And this is the university that produced Vyas, the writer of the Mahabharata, who produced Panini, who produced Gosha, a doctor of that time, from the time of Buddha, he was also from there. This was a very capable university. There were teachers and students like Chanakya Kautilya there. >> Think. >> Just think. >> The writer of Arthashastra. >> Writer. >> Kautilya was a professor there, a teacher there. >> Yes. >> And it was the Oxford and Cambridge of that era. >> More than that. >> And it is very close to Pindi. >> Yes, absolutely. >> Punjabis don't remember these things. We have forgotten them. And then look, we compare with Machiavelli, there are many discussions about him, that he was a great man. I say he was an advisor to the ruler of Florence, such a small principality. Chanakya Kautilya was the advisor to Chandragupta Maurya, whose empire, as you just said, was so vast. He was the great man, and our Chanakya. >> Chanakya was there. And Machiavelli was an advisor to the ruler of a small city-state in Europe. We have accepted him. Alexander the Great became great, Poru did not become great. >> No, Poru did not become great. Machiavelli did. >> And Chanakya did not. >> From here, we jump. >> Because there are many gaps in our education, Salman. >> And after him, the most prominent name I see in the empires is that of the Hindu Shahi dynasty. >> Yes. >> And where did the Hindu Shahi kings come from? How did they spread so much? And why do we remember and acknowledge them today? >> One is, if you read the entire Rajatarangini, it mentions all the dynasties that passed through, four or five of them, their complete mention is there. And the language is very hyperbolic, but the mention is interesting and enjoyable. Great kings like Durlabh Bhavardhan, a big name comes to my mind. >> Which century are we talking about? >> We are talking about 700, 40, 730 >> AD. >> Yes. >> Right. >> Meaning, 1500 years ago, 1200 years ago. >> 1200-1300 years ago. >> We are talking about 1300 years ago. >> And they ruled Kashmir, your Uttar Pradesh, Haryana, Punjab, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, all of it. Kabul was also under them. >> Only Multan was outside their rule. Everything else was within their reach. >> Yes. They were great kings. And from one dynasty to another, they merged. There was no bloodshed, no need to kill anyone. They did a lot of work. You can see their temples in our Salt Range, in beautiful places. And I heard that the name of their founder was Kalar, and from Kalar, it became Kalar Kahar. >> Ah, listen to this. >> I don't know. >> No, I heard it. I read it somewhere, I studied it. It's very interesting. You just mentioned the word 'taad' (taad). You just used the word. >> Ah, I remember. In our childhood, we had a relative who lived in Multan. And our elders used to say, "Look, when Muharram comes, Uncle Dhadd Dhadd Hussain has arrived." And he had a ritual: when he heard the news or the mention of Imam Hussain's martyrdom, >> he would come, Dhadd Dhadd Dhadd Dhadd. >> And he would cry, beating his chest, crying. >> And even today in Punjab, when someone is in great distress, has great sorrow, even today people come and say, "Dhaad oye Dhaad oye! Haal oye Haal!" The other day I was talking to Dr. Saeed Bhutta, who is a professor of Punjabi at Government College. >> Yes. >> I told him. And he said, "When the Dhaads came..." >> And he said, "The people of Punjab would wail." >> I said, "What did you say?" "Yes, the invaders, the attackers, in our language, in the old tribal language," >> "we call them Dhaadi." >> Yes. >> And when people saw that a crowd was gathering on the other side, it meant the Dhaads were coming. And people would say, "Dhaad oye Dhaad oye!" >> Right? >> And even today, when people wail in Punjabi, "Dhaad Dhaad, Haal Haal!" >> They are lamenting. >> That this is going to be our fate. >> That's why what you said, they still live today, this is living history. >> Absolutely. >> And we were talking about the Hindu Shahi government, about their empire. They fiercely fought Mahmud Ghaznavi and those who came from Kabul. They fought bravely, for decades. >> And the greatest among them was named Jaipal. >> Now, tell us the story of Raja Jaipal. >> I don't know. >> Come on, Salman, I am interviewing you. You are the great scholar. >> I haven't read about Jaipal, but I know that Bhimpal, his >> father, brother, or son. >> Bhimpal fought bravely in the plain below Nandna, in Baghanwali. And fought very bravely. Fought very bravely. Let me tell you a little about Jaipal, based on my knowledge. It might not be accurate. >> But Jaipal also fought a great war with Mahmud Ghaznavi for a long time. Jaipal fought Mahmud for 15 years.
Ghaznavi fought a war with him. Sometimes he pushed Mahmud back, sometimes Mahmud defeated him. While doing this, he defeated Jaipal. Mahmud said, "Now I heard that Jaipal burned himself, committed Jauhar, because Jaipal was a Rajput, and they have a custom.
"That we do not lay down our arms, we do not retreat, we do not accept defeat. We will take our lives, we will give our lives." And apparently, he walked into the fire. He was a great man. He was a big man. He was a very, very big man, and a great hero of Punjab, and we should acknowledge him. Absolutely. And our hero is Mahmud Ghaznavi. Everything of ours is lost. Look, Jaipal had a brother or a son, I don't remember now, perhaps a son. Anandpal. Bhimpal. Bhimpal. They called him Fearless Bhim, Bhim the Dauntless. He had no fear. There was no fear in him, no terror. When they came down from the Salt Range, to the plain below the mountains, the one called Baghwali, he had stationed his army there, and a very fierce battle took place. He had fewer troops, and he was martyred there, but he fought bravely.
They, the Hindu Shahi dynasty, fought for many decades after Jaipal, after Anandpal, after Bhimpal. They kept fighting. Absolutely. And they fought many wars against the Ghaznavids. Salman, we have told this whole calamity, and we have also heard it. We are now going to the year 1192. This is the year in which Shahabuddin Ghori, Muhammad Ghori, fought a war in Punjab with Prithviraj Chauhan. The war happens here. We will end our story and start the next time. Done.