Transcription
K: I should think one of our greatest problems in life must be, surely, knowing that our minds deteriorate, decline as one grows older, or deteriorate even when one is quite young - being a specialist along a certain line, and being unaware totally of the whole complex area of life - it must be a great problem to find out whether it is at all possible to stop this deterioration so that the mind is always fresh, young, clear, decisive. And is it at all possible to end this decline? This evening, if I may, I would like to go into that, because to me, meditation is freeing the mind from the known.
Q: The talks and writings of Krishnamurti cannot be limited to a single category, such as philosophy or religion. Unquestionably, Krishnamurti is one of the more challenging and creative men of our time, for his profound insights into the realities of the human condition. This series of 8 programs represents the first time that Krishnamurti has permitted his talks to be filmed. In this talk, the subject of which is meditation, Krishnamurti continues his exploration of the real revolution, a radical change in ourselves.
K: The question then arises: is it at all possible to end this decaying process of this brain, as well as of the mind, the whole, total entity? And also if it's possible to keep the physique, the body, extraordinarily alive, alert, energetic, and so on. So that seems to me a great issue, and therefore a great challenge to find out. Now, the inquiry into this, not only verbally but non-verbally, the inquiry, the examination into this, is meditation. Because that word itself is so misused. There are so many methods of meditation. If we understand one, we shall understand the total systems and the ways of meditation. But the central issue that we're going to talk over together this evening is this: that whether the mind can ever rejuvenate itself, whether it can become fresh, young, unafraid.
The fact is that there is deterioration. And if one looks at it and translates that deterioration, or tries to transcend it or go beyond it in terms of personal inclination, temperament, and so on, it becomes a very shoddy affair. But if one observes it, as you would observe a tree, a sunset, light on the water, the outlines of a blue hill, just to observe it, just to observe the process of what is actually taking place in each one of us, then we will go together. And if you cannot do this, there will be gaps and we'll not be able to take the road together.
Because we are concerned with the whole, total process of living, and this total process of living, as one observes, is always creating an image - about ourselves, about others, image through experience, image through conflict - and are we aware that there is an image in each one of us, about ourselves? And that image begins to be more and more strong and more and more crystallised, and then there is the end of it all. So is one aware of it? And if one is aware of it, who is the entity that is aware of the image? You understand the issue? Is the image different from the image-maker? Or the image-making and the image are the same. Because unless one understands this factor very clearly, what we're going into will not be clear. You understand?
I perceive I have an image about myself: I am this and that, I am a great man, or a little man, or my name is known, not known - you know, all the verbal structure about oneself, and the non-verbal structure about oneself, conscious or hidden. And I realise that image exists. If at all I become aware, watchful, I know there is this image, it's being formed all the time. And the observer who is aware of that image feels himself different from the image. Isn't that what's taking place? Right? I hope we're making this clear.
And the observer then begins to either say to himself that this image is the factor that brings about a deterioration, therefore I must destroy the image in order to achieve a greater result, to make the mind young, fresh and all the rest of it, and he struggles, he explains, he justifies, or adds, strives to alter it to a better image. And this is very important to understand. And effort, struggle, in different ways, either physically or psychologically, as competition, as ambition, aggression, violence, pride, accumulated resentment, and so on, is one of the factors of deterioration.
So when one realises that the observer is the image-maker, then our whole process of thinking undergoes a tremendous change. And so the image is the known. So, as long as the brain, as long as the whole mind - in which is the brain and the body, the whole mind - functions within the field of the image, which is the known, of which one may be conscious or not, in that field is the factor of deterioration. Right?
Please don't accept it as an idea which you will think about when you go home. You won't anyhow, but I mean, here we are doing it, taking the thing together, therefore you must do it now, not when you go home and say, 'Well I've taken notes and I've understood it, I'll think about it.' Don't take notes because that doesn't help at all.
So the question arises: is it possible to empty the mind of the known? You understand? Am I making myself clear? One must have asked this question vaguely or with a purpose because one suffers, one has anxieties, whether it's possible to go beyond, or one has vague hints of it. Now we are asking it, we are asking it as a question which must be answered, as a challenge which must be responded to. And this challenge is not an outward challenge but a psychological, inward challenge. And we're going to find out whether it is possible to empty the mind of the known. This emptying of the mind is meditation.
And one must go into this question of meditation. I mean, explain it a little bit. All the Asiatic people are conditioned by this word. So-called religious, serious people are conditioned by this word, because through meditation they hope to find something which is not... ...something beyond mere daily existence. And to find it they have various systems, very, very subtle or very crude, like the Zen. And also in that so-called meditative system is concentration, fixing the mind on one idea or one thought or one symbol, and so on. And also there are various forms of stimulation, forcing oneself, stimulating oneself, and that is to expand consciousness more and more, through will, through effort, through concentration, through determination, to force, force, force. And by extending this consciousness one hopes to arrive at a different state or a different dimension, or reach a point which the conscious mind cannot. Or one takes many, many drugs, including the latest, LSD and so on, so on. That gives, for the moment, tremendous stimulation to the whole system. And in that state one experiences extraordinary things. Extraordinary things through stimulation, through concentration, through discipline, through starvation, fasting. If one fasts for some days one has peculiar... obviously, peculiar things happening. And one takes drugs and for the moment it gives you... makes the body extraordinarily sensitive, you see colours which are most extraordinary, which you've never seen before. You see everything so clearly, there is no space between you and that thing which you see. And this goes on in various forms throughout the world. The repetition of words, like in the Catholic, or in those prayers which all make the mind a little calm, quiet - obviously which is a trick. If you keep on repeating, repeating, you get so dull, obviously you go to sleep and you think that's a very quiet mind. But that's not meditation.
So one can brush all that aside. Even though one is committed to it, we can throw all that out of the window. And as you are listening I hope you'll throw it out, because we are going into something much deeper than this invention. One can put all that aside, because the more one practises a discipline, the more the mind becomes dull, mechanised. And that mechanising routine, process, makes the mind somewhat quiet, but it is not the quietness of tremendous energy, understanding.
Then we can proceed to inquire whether it is at all possible to free the mind from the known. Not only the known of a thousand years but also of yesterday, the memory, which is memory. Which doesn't mean that I forget the road, the way to the house that we live in, or technology. That, obviously, one must have. That's essential, otherwise we can't live. But we are talking of things at a deeper level, the deeper level where the image is always active. The image, which is the known, is functioning all the time. And whether that image and the maker of the image, which is the observer, whether it is possible to empty the mind of that. And emptying of that, of the known, is meditation.
I can only understand you when I have no image about you. But if you are a friend, a relation, and so on, husband, wife, and all the rest of it, I have an image. And the image I have, and you have about me and I have about you, those images have relationship. And all our relationship is based on that. One sees very clearly that only when the image doesn't interfere - image as knowledge, thought, emotion, all the rest of it - interfere, then I can look, I can hear, I can understand. It has happened to all of us, when suddenly - you discuss, argue, point out, and so on - suddenly your mind becomes quiet and you say, 'By Jove, I've understood.' That understanding is an action, not an idea. Right?
So, there is understanding, action, only action in a different sense than the action that we know, which is the action of the image of the known. We are talking of an understanding which is an action when the mind is completely quiet, in which understanding as action takes place. Right? So, there is understanding and action only when the mind is completely quiet. And that quiet, still mind is not induced by any discipline, by any effort. And meditation then is - which one can do when you are sitting in a bus, walking the street or washing dishes and God knows what else - and meditation has nothing whatsoever to do with breathing and all that. There is nothing mysterious about it. The mystery of life is beyond all this. Beyond the image, beyond effort, beyond the centralised, egotistic, subjective, self-centred activity there is a vast field of something which can never be found through the known. And the emptying of the mind can only take place, non-verbally, only when there is no observer as the observed.
All this demands tremendous attention, awareness, an awareness which is not concentration. Just to observe without choosing. Choice takes place only when there is confusion, not when there is clarity. So, awareness takes place only when there is no choice, or when you are aware of all the conflicting choices, conflicting desires, the strains - just to observe all this movement of contradiction - and knowing that the observer is the observed. And therefore in that process there is no choice at all, but only watching 'what is.' And that's entirely different from concentration. And that awareness brings a quality of attention in which there is neither the observer nor the observed. And this emptying of the mind, with all the experiences it has had, is meditation. And that can be emptied only, all the experiences, when each experience... one becomes aware of it, sees the whole content of it, without choice, and therefore it goes, it passes by. Therefore there is no mark of that experience, as a wound, as something to remember, to recognise and keep.
So meditation is a very strenuous process, it's not just a thing to do for old ladies or men who have nothing to do. This demands tremendous attention right through. Then you'll find for yourself - no, there is no question of experience, there is no finding. Then when the mind is completely quiet, without any form of suggestion, as hypnotism, or following a method, when the mind is completely quiet, then there is a quality and a different dimension of which thought can never possibly imagine or experience. Then it's beyond all search. There is then no seeking. A mind that is full of light does not seek. It's only the dull, confused mind that's always seeking and hoping to find. What it finds is the result of its own confusion.
Look, please, if you understand one question you have understood all the questions. And so what is important in all this - in asking questions and the answers, or the explanations - is that the explanation has no value at all. What has value is how you ask the question and what you're expecting out of that question. If you are attentive of what you are asking you will see that question is answered without any difficulty. Therefore there is no teacher, you are everything yourself, both the teacher, the pupil, you know, everything. That gives you tremendous freedom to inquire.
Q: This has been the 4th of 8 programs presenting the talks of Krishnamurti. Subsequent programs in this series are titled: 'What Is Love?' 'Questioning' 'Living and Death' and 'The End of Conflict.'