Transcription
[music] My husband and I have been married for 27 years. I was a very compliant wife. I've had lots of children. I've done all the right things. I wasn't the [music] standard of beauty, I guess you could say. And so, he would say things to me like, "Well, you're cute." And I would be like, "But I want to be beautiful." "Well, you're not beautiful. You're cute."
>> Gosh. Okay. Hey, let me tell you straight up. [music] What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show, coming to you [music] from Nashville, Tennessee, taking calls from all over the world. I'm a real person talking to real people who are going through real challenges. People who are struggling to fix their marriages, to heal their past, to deal with kid challenges, mental and emotional health, whatever you got going on in your life. For over two decades, I've been sitting with hurting people trying to figure out what's the next right move. I'd love to have you on the show. Go to johndeloney.com/ask, fill out the form, and we will get you on.
Let's go out to San Antonio, Texas, home of the greatest food in America, and talk to Amanda. What's up, Amanda?
>> Morning. How are you, John?
>> I'm outstanding. How are you?
>> I'm great. I'm super excited to be speaking with you today.
>> I'm really grateful that you called. What's going on?
>> So, uh, my husband and I have been married for 27 years. Um, we both were in the same high relig high demand religion and we have both eventually left it. I left it about 12 years ago. He's kind of gone back and forth, but he's completely out now. Um, but I just have I'm realizing I have lots of resentment around how he treated me while we were in the religion and then since and now I'm older and I'm realizing he also has all his own trauma around that. But I don't quite know how to forgive where we've been and move forward past how I'm feeling right now.
>> So, give me some examples of some things that you are still resenting.
>> Okay. So, um when we were in the religion, I was very I don't know how to describe it. I don't want to say good girl because I don't think I'm a bad girl, but I was very good at following all the rules.
>> How about a compliant girl?
>> Compliant. Very good. That's a the perfect word to describe. Did what you were told and you took all your wants and needs and feelings and shoved them in a box and you.
>> Absolutely.
>> Did what the next person told you to do. Okay.
>> Yeah. Absolutely. So that's how I grew up and then I the saying I always say to everybody is I left my dad's house and went straight to my husband. Okay.
>> So I was very compliant growing up. I was a very compliant wife. I've had lots of children. I've done all the right things. Um and then I just couldn't do it anymore. And so now that I've left, um I've realized that he was probably just telling me what he was told to tell me while we were younger. But it's made me feel bad cuz it was a lot of um how he didn't like the way I looked. Um he didn't I wasn't the standard of beauty, I guess you could say, in our religion. Um and so he would say things to me like, "Well, you're cute." And I would be like, "But I want to be beautiful." "Well, you're not beautiful. You're cute, you know." So, he would kind of downplay I don't know [clears throat] how I felt about myself all the time. And then I the house was never clean enough, the kids were never quiet enough. It was a lot of that growing when they were growing up. Now that I've changed and I feel like I look different and I behave different now. I get a lot of I don't like the way you look. I don't like the way you talk. I don't like. So, I just feel like it doesn't matter what I look and say and do, I'm not good enough or right for him. Yeah.
>> So, I just I don't know quite what to do with those feelings cuz I I don't want to be divorced and I don't want to leave him and I I understand we've lived a pretty great life. It's just a lot of these feelings have just kind of all piled up on themselves and I don't know how to deal with it.
>> Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. So, um I I hear two things happening at the same time. One is you were both in religious tradition that told him that every wrong thing in his life was the woman in his life's fault. [clears throat]
>> Oh wow.
>> And you were told that everything you feel is wrong and the things you're supposed to feel are whatever he tells you to do.
>> Wow.
>> And over time you both broke free from that.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> But I also hear those same things. He's continuing to hurt you in that way.
>> Yeah.
>> And so I don't want you to conflate. I'm I I resent the way he used to treat me.
>> Mhm.
>> I want you to own this is happening right now.
>> Okay. And that's a that's a it's it's both a more graceful y'all. Both um breathing in the same smoke.
>> 10 15 years ago.
>> Yeah.
>> And you're not anymore and yet these actions are continuing.
>> Wow. Yeah.
>> So that's a scarier proposition. It's it's at the same time more graceful and also I got to deal with this present reality that my husband looks me in the eye and says you are not beautiful enough for me.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And probably me saying the words, "I'll give you a pass." It's probably not the right way to say that, but I'll give anybody grace on them simply walking on the on the path they were given and assigned.
>> Yeah, for sure. For sure. Especially cuz if you if you're in a high demand religion, you probably it this move probably cost you friends. It probably cost you family. It c comes with a lot of unhooking which is really painful. Right.
>> Yeah. I I describe it as a death. I feel like I had a death in my life.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And so I'm not going to say I'm give somebody my past, but dude, I've got so much grace for folks who look back and think, "Oh my gosh, look who I was. Look what I did. Look who I became." And some of that to be honest with you.
>> is you we talk a lot about like when you break free from these type of um unhealthy and in this case sometimes it's family dynamics, sometimes it's religion dynamics, that sense of empowerment you feel.
>> It it it can it almost always leads to this contempt like I'm above this now. I figured out something and all of y'all hurt me and y were painful and some of that's true. But here's the challenge. Most people don't do what I think is the next hardest step, which is forgive themselves.
>> Wow. I never thought to do that.
>> Well, it often that discomfort we're still carrying around about what they did to me, what they did to me also is in a in a twisted way. I allowed this to happen. I signed up for this. I participated in this for 5, 10, 20, 30 years.
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> And that comes with forgiveness and grace for the woman you see in the mirror.
>> And none of that none of it excuses where you and your husband are right now.
>> Yeah. So tell me about the things he says because what I hear is and and listen I can be super wrong what I'm hearing so I want you to help correct me.
>> Okay.
>> What I'm hearing is you just want this guy that you've built a life with. You want him to want you.
>> Yeah.
>> Tell me about that.
>> No, that's absolutely it. That's absolutely it. I mean about 4 years ago I found out I had um breast cancer and um and he was so hands off with me. It just it was almost surprising to me how hands off. I mean there would be nights I would cry myself to sleep in my closet because he would be so frustrated with me by how I was handling it.
>> And tell me about that. That has made me feel.
>> He would tell me that I was being too negative or I um or it's not that big of a deal or people have it worse. And so I would lay in bed and cry because I wasn't trying to be negative and but I also had to feel what I was feeling at the time.
>> Absolutely.
>> And so I would lay in bed and cry at night because I had I felt like I always had to keep it together because unfortunately for me I'm a people pleaser by to the ends. But so I would feel like I had to keep it together for everybody at work all day and my kids and yada yada yada. And then I would just want to be able to just cry in bed at night if I needed to. And he would tell me, "You're going to die if you're this negative. You can't keep doing this. You're just being so negative."
>> And good gosh. Okay, let me just tell you. Let me tell you straight up.
>> That's not supposed to happen like that.
>> Okay.
>> Like I'm I'm I'm doing my best to not get enraged inside my chest.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Mhm.
>> On your behalf. And I don't even I just met you.
>> Mhm.
>> I'm sorry.
>> No, don't be sorry. I'll just sit here with you for a sec. Okay.
>> Cuz you've been lonely inside your house for a long, long time, haven't you?
>> 27 years.
>> That's right. Yeah. [clears throat]
>> And you got to experience, I think, one of the scariest things ever, which is when we squash part of our self to make ourselves quote unquote lovable.
>> Mhm. There's always a story we tell ourselves that when the chips are down, our spouse will stand beside us.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And so you squashed part of yourself for a long long time.
>> And he did too.
>> Yeah.
>> But then the then the chips fell and you found yourself all alone.
>> Yeah. Still.
>> That's the definition of trauma is a disconnection from yourself and others. Now, here's here's my next statement. You can't control him.
>> So, my next question for you is.
>> Have you sat down across the table and chosen not to continue to hold this pain in this new era that you're in, this new season of empowerment and strength.
>> And said, "Here is how you hurt me." Or a better way to say it is I was so so hurt.
>> I'm honestly afraid to say it.
>> Tell me what that feels.
>> Anytime I feel like anytime I've tried to be honest about my feelings, he can't hear me.
>> That's not true. He won't hear you.
>> He won't. Yeah, he won't hear me. He just gets mad about and then he turns it into I never do anything right and I'm always a failure and then I feel like I have to squash it again because I've made him feel some kind of way and I need to fix it.
>> So in in there there's an old therapy saying there's there's a one up and a one down position. Okay.
>> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Sometimes they it it tends to fall across gender lines, although I'm watching it in real time shift. Um, where men often hold one up position because they're just got bigger muscles and they can get loud and they can be ferocious, right? This is my house. This is the way we're going to do things.
>> But there's also a way to take power over a household in the one down position. And the joke I always make is we all have that like that that woman in our family that's like, "Oh, I I don't want to eat there. You know what? That's okay. I just won't eat. I'll just eat the napkins in the glove box. Y'all go ahead without me." And it's a way that the whole family stops and goes, "Okay, where do you want to go?" Right? It's a it's the same capture of power just done in a different way. And I'm watching more and more men take this on as culture has said, "Hey, you can't beat your chest and yell anymore." Cuz masculinity, like it it's a poisonous version of that.
>> What they're doing now is, "Oh, I just can't do anything right. And you just hate me and I'm such a failure." And it's and then the whole house goes, "You're not a failure." Right.
>> And it's it's it's the same move. It's just done on the other underneath the water instead on top of the boat.
>> Yeah. And it's almost like I can't point it out because what is it? I don't Yeah.
>> Here's what it is.
>> My body was at war with me and you blamed me for making you uncomfortable.
>> Every time I have a feeling inside my own house, you tell me something is wrong with me. You are such a weak, childish coward that you can't hold your wife's feelings. And you can lift all the weights in the world and do all the MMA in the world and get all the tattoos in the world and have all the guns in the world and listen to all the red pill podcast in the world, but if you can't hold your wife's pain, you're not a man. Period.
>> Yeah.
>> That's the job. And not only is that the job, that's the greatest gift on the planet.
>> Yeah.
>> And so hear me say your pain is real.
>> Now, I've seen some people be successful, both men and women, by sitting down and saying, "We need to have a hard conversation, and I'm going to ask you to act like an adult here."
>> Okay.
>> What does that mean? What is it? I'm going to say some heavy things and I'm going to ask you to not retreat. I'm going to ask you to stand firm and I'm going to ask you to finally listen to me.
>> Okay?
>> And I'm going to challenge you as best as possible to use I statements instead of you statements.
>> Okay. Yeah, I definitely need to work on that. Okay. And somebody who feels perpetually attacked in their home with you, you you you perpetually feels like a victim.
>> Yeah.
>> Versus I had breast cancer and you blamed me for crying too loud.
>> Yeah.
>> I went through this many years of being told that my voice didn't matter. And I just want you to look at me and say, "I'm glad that you're my wife." [snorts]
>> Sorry, I'm a crybaby.
>> No, you're not a crybaby. [laughter] You're somebody who's got your emotions, rightfully so, because for a big chunk of your life, they told you God didn't like your emotions. And then the person that you were hitched to,
>> Yeah,
>> Said, "They make me uncomfortable, so keep them bottled up. They will bubble over." And here's what's Tell me if I'm wrong. Are there seasons? Are there times when you just explode and then he goes, "See, see?"
>> Yeah. Absolutely.
>> Okay. That's what happens. That's what happens when these things get just shaken up like a 2 L bottle with the lid on.
>> Intimacy is crazy when I do that. Well, I I know, but it's it's a way that uh um somebody will point at you and make it your fault. And so, here's what has to happen. You have to have a safe place right now. And I don't say safe like in the kumbaya nonsensical. I'm I'm talking about a trusted person or group of people. Not that you can complain to and whine to cuz that doesn't help.
>> Mhm.
>> But a place where you can be heard and you can let your feelings out cuz feelings don't tell us the truth all the time, but they do have significant value. They are data.
>> Okay?
>> And so if that's not him right now,
>> That is you once a week getting with a group of girlfriends.
>> Not to say my husband, it's to say [sighs] I need to say in front of some people that I feel really lonely right now. I'm still scared to death that my body is um going to kill me from the inside out.
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> I still feel really lonely even though my husband and I raised some great kids together.
>> Okay, I can do that. And my hope is that if you look at your husband and say, "You've got one job, and that's to keep me safe and love me," [snorts] that he'll rise to that occasion. If if it's said in that direct of a way, I feel like I say this every show, but you're not crazy and your pain is real and your feelings are are righteous and and and and good. [clears throat]
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Thank you for saying that. [snorts] I want you to write a letter to 22-year-old you and I want you to tell her I forgive you.
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Cuz that girl was just doing what she knew.
>> And you're kind of pissed at her, aren't you? [laughter]
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I really don't like her at all.
>> I know. Hey, don't judge that girl. Let her go. She was just trying to make do with what she had, with what she knew.
>> [clears throat]
>> And then we have to deal with the gnarly present reality [snorts]
>> That you're in right now. Okay.
>> Okay.
>> It's been a [snorts] one of It's been a high honor that I get to talk to you today and you call me anytime. Okay. And if your husband wants to call and say, "Okay, I get it. I don't know what to do next." Tell him. I'd love for him to pull up a seat and we'll figure it out.
>> I love that. Okay, I appreciate it.
>> Yep.
>> And if [clears throat] y'all want to call me together, y'all can do that also. Okay.
>> All right. I appreciate it.
>> All right. Blessings to you. I appreciate the call so so so much. When we come back, a woman asks how to rebuild trust after her husband used her sister's photos for sexual gratification. I've been telling you about Cozy Earth's bamboo sheets and pajamas forever, right? They are the best. They give you that kind of comfort that makes coming home from a chaotic workplace or a long day out in the wild a reason to exhale and say, "Ah, I'm home." And now that the weather is cooler, I want to tell you about Cozy Earth softwash cotton sheets. I love sleeping on cotton sheets in the fall and in the winter. They're so warm and so cozy. They're breathable and they make you feel at home like you've had them for years, but in the best possible way. and right out of the package. And as always, their new softwash cotton sheets come with a 100 night sleep trial. Try them out. If you don't love them, you can return them hassle-free. You're not going to want to return them cuz they're amazing. And right now, November 27th through December 2nd is Cozyear's Black Friday sale. Go to cozyearth.com/deloney and use code deloney on top of their sitewide sale and you're going to get up to 40% off in total savings. Don't wait. Start your holiday shopping right now. That's cozy cozy. Cozyearth.com/deloney with code Deloney. Home isn't just where you live, it's how you feel. All right, if you've seen me on stages across the country speaking at live events or even the other night when I was at the comedy club, you have seen me wearing poncho shirts. I love them. And it's cold outside now, so I can wear my favorite poncho shirts. The denims and flannels. The ones I wear almost every day are the Laramie or the Buffalo. Actually, I wear a whole bunch of them all the time. Poncho's performance denim has that soft, broken in feel with a little bit of stretch, like you've worn it a million times, but it still looks awesome. And Poncho flannels come in original and western styles, and they're guaranteed to be the softest shirts you own. It's like a hug. They're so great. They're somehow both durable, but also really comfortable. Poncho shirts come in slim or regular fit and they're built for real life. They hold up to whatever your day throws at you. So when you're shopping for the guys in your life this holiday season, go to ponchooutdoors.com/deloney. The guys in your life will love these shirts. You can sign up with your email and you're going to get 10 bucks off your first order. That's ponchooutdoors.com/deloney.
All right, we are back. Hey, take two seconds and hit the subscribe button if you're watching this on YouTube. It really makes a huge difference for the algorithms and it makes a big difference putting the show in front of other listeners. Doesn't cost anything. It just takes two seconds of your time if you'll log in and hit the subscribe button. It makes a huge difference. Let's go out to Lynn Washington and talk to Rose. What's up, Rose?
>> Hi. Can you hear me?
>> I can. How are you?
>> I'm good. How are you?
>> I'm doing great. What's going on? So my question is, how can I rebuild trust in my marriage and forgive my husband after he used pictures of my sisters for sexual gratification?
>> Oh, good grief. Tell me this story. This is giving me the ooze.
>> So, I can give you a little more context um just to start. So, I'm 22. My husband is 28. Um sorry, I'm bouncing my six-month-old at the same time.
>> No, you you that's way more important than this. You you take care of that [clears throat] sixmonth old. You're good.
>> I have a passive sexual trauma from my last romantic relationship four years ago. My husband is aware of the extent of my trauma and has been patient with my sexual boundaries our whole relationship. We have been married for a year and a half and together for two and a half and have an amazing six-month old baby girl. My husband has struggled with porn and lustful [clears throat] desire since he was 11 and wants healing. How do I heal from this deep betrayal and love him through it? I know it wasn't my fault and that I am enough, but how do I support him through sexual freedom while not minimizing my pain? And how do I prepare to see my sisters in person after this came to light?
>> So, tell me what came to light.
>> Yeah. So, it's been um like two and a half weeks since he told me and I I have known that he has struggled with porn prior to us meeting and a few times um [clears throat] during our marriage, but he's been great the last couple months. So, everything that he's told me in the last couple weeks has happened prior to us having our baby. And I saw a shift in him after that just in leading our home and spiritual leading as well. But I just I told him like two and a half weeks ago we were going to buy a new car and I was like, you don't seem to be walking a life of contentment and there feels like there's distance and you're always seeking more. And I was like, I can tell that there's something. And I felt it for a while and my body knows that there's something. So I just need you to tell me.
>> Hey, can I just stop you right there and say thank you? I was going to say congratulations, but that's not that's the wrong word. Thank you for being a person who's experienced trauma and out of that healing is learning to trust the data that your body is giving you about your environment. That's awesome.
>> Yeah,
>> That's what healing looks like and I'm really proud of you for that.
>> Thank you. It's been a lot of counseling and a lot of healing over the years. And so I just I knew. And so he was at first he was like, "Yeah, I struggled with porn." And he had told me back in December that he had been struggling. And so after December, we put precautions on his phone. He got into counseling, started meeting with leaders at our church. Um, and so he had the accountability, but he's like, "I didn't tell you everything." And so he's like, I masturbated two pictures of not just at first it was just one sister, but over the last couple weeks he's been really honest and I think the guilt has been killing him um and said it was multiple. I have six sisters and so there is um a lot and he took their pictures off of social media and so it wasn't anything that he took himself um but there's just been a lot and even [clears throat] since like before we had our kid he did tell me this week um that he he used to play video games he sold his computer yesterday I'm done I want to be honest about everything but he would talk to girls on Discord um just seeking attention attention. And so I think that is everything so far that has come to light. And I know he's doing the work. He's met with our church pastors. He's met with a counselor, but it's just like I just can't keep the images out of my head.
>> Yeah. Yeah. There's I mean I it's it's usually not helpful to classify things as worse or you know like not good and worse and worse, right?
>> Um, yeah.
>> But there's a personalization, right? Because you know there's something about like masturbating to nameless people on on some porn site, right? And
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> That can feel like a betrayal and frustration, all that. But then there's coming up, right? I mean, you're in the holiday season and we're we're we're recording the show, but it's going to be out in the middle of the holidays when you and him are going to be in the same room as them, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, there's a personalization to this that feels gross.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> It's hard. It's messy.
>> Yeah. So, I'll I'll reverse engineer this question and answer your last question first. I think what's important is to not blame your sisters for this.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
>> Um I
>> And I also struggle with should I tell them?
>> No, I wouldn't.
>> Okay. Okay.
>> Yeah. There's I mean there's radical transparency and radical honesty. I mean, it it can get to um it's it can be unhelpful, right?
>> Yes. Yeah.
>> And so I I I want to make sure first you don't blame them.
>> Yeah. No.
>> Okay. They didn't do anything wrong. It when you first said the question, I thought you were they were sending him photos or something behind your back. This is different. He just pulls stuff off of social media accounts. Um, the second thing is you beginning to, in a weird way, it sounds like you are invested in this marriage. You're watching this guy try to work hard and change and do some pretty deep healing. I'm going to tell you all the way back to 11 years old. Um, playing defense is step one, but getting to this idea you talked about he he is constantly wanting more different something other than that's a clear sign that he doesn't feel comfortable in his own skin.
>> Yeah.
>> And so that is he needs to go sit with a therapist and do that hard work similar to the hard work you have done.
>> Yeah. Because this isn't going to be solved with defense because a good offense eventually finds a way through a good defense.
>> Yes, absolutely.
>> And so at step one, cool, you got a he got rid of his computer, he got rid of his video games and whatever. Well, then you're going to have a guy who's completely uncomfortable in his own skin sitting in your living room staring at you. [clears throat and cough]
>> Right. And that's a it's staring at you and this beautiful six-month-old you're holding, right?
>> Yeah. Um, the next step is you get to decide what the path back to trust looks like.
>> What does that mean?
>> So, here's what it looks like. Maybe this year you sit down and I again, I'm always saying this, but I think it's incredibly important here. These are I statements, not you statements. Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> I am wrestling with a path back to trust. And because you were sexually gratifying yourself to real people in my life, my sisters, I'm uncomfortable this year with y'all all being in the same room with me just finding this out two weeks ago.
>> Yeah.
>> So this year I'm going to do Thanksgiving with just me and the baby and my family.
>> Okay.
>> And I I'm just making this up. I don't I don't know if that if that would bother you, if it not bother you, whatever. Um, and when your family says, "Why isn't he coming?" say, "He's working through some things and we're working through some things, and that's about all I'm going to say about it. I'm just want y'all to be happy that I'm here. I'm safe and I'm proud of the work he's doing."
>> Yeah.
>> And I'm not going to go into details. I'm not going to sob story. I'm not going to shove him under the bus. I'm just going to completely own my strength and my boundaries in this in this moment.
>> Okay. Um, that's one that's one idea. Another idea is you can come, but I want you to stay with me and whatever. My guess is that him sexually gratifying himself to pictures of your sisters was less about them.
>> Yes. Yeah. No, he's told me it's more about like the fantasy um that he has seen a lot just from struggling from watching porn from such a young age. the fantasy side, not necessarily them as a person. Um, [clears throat]
>> And so it may be y'all going to counseling together to help untangle the depersonalization of this cuz it's very, very personal for you. It may not be personal for him.
>> Yeah,
>> That doesn't give an excuse, but that might give you some feeling more safe letting him around people. They just happen to be a beautiful person on an Instagram account that he could follow without you raising your suspicion, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Which again doesn't give any any pass and it's gross and it's just gh those are my sisters for God's sakes but also you'd be crazy if you didn't have a side eye the whole time they're in the same room together right.
>> Yes and we're super close too so I have talked to him about possibly not coming but.
>> I also told them I'm I'm really scared that when [clears throat] I see them I'm probably just going to break down crying because we are so close and they're going to be like what the heck Yeah.
>> And so I fear that it might come to light, but I also not giving him that he doesn't deserve for it to come to light if it hurts me that bad. But also I want to like prioritize our marriage.
>> Sure.
>> And I know that some things won't be helpful to one of the sisters that's also struggling with like her own mental health stuff right now.
>> Tell me about um Well, hold on. You are.
>> Taking a lot of responsibility about how everyone else is going to feel.
>> Yeah. And if you try to rebuild a path to trust, making sure everybody else is okay, you're not going to come with a clean path.
>> Yeah.
>> You're going to put a bunch of actions down and people are going to follow those actions and it's never go you're never going to feel like you you're in a place where you can trust again because you outsourced the outcomes of some of those actions. And so it would be helpful if I say with no regard, that sounds harsh, but it's a good exercise. Just sit down with a yellow pad and a pen and say, "In a perfect world, here's what you would need to do for me to trust you again."
>> Okay?
>> And write that down. And then some of those things might be nutso, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Like you have to walk around with a blindfold on for the rest of your life. Like whatever those things are. Um, but this is going to be a weird thing. I I I hesitate to use this because it might be the wrong analogy, but hopefully you'll give me some grace. If somebody's struggling with an eating disorder, they can't just never eat again, like it's the it's the hardest mental health challenge to overcome because you have to make peace with food, right?
>> Yeah.
>> And so, in a similar way, you can't just avoid each other forever. There's going to be some place where I'm going to have to I'm going to have to head into this anxiety. Real quick before I let you go, tell me about why you think you'll break down in tears when you see your sisters.
>> I think it's just because I'm so close with them and we kind of share everything about our lives and we've walked through a lot from childhood um with our mom and she was pretty emotionally and mentally abusive and physically abusive towards the older kids. And so I think there's just been like a huge amount of transparency between all of us sisters. And so it's hard not to share >> things that are really hard on our life because when we got married I moved to a a new city with him and my sisters were like I mean my best friends you grow up in a big family you share rooms we do everything together and so we've just been so close for so long it just feels like and I've heard you say like secrets kill relationships and it feel like it feels like that relationship might have some walls built up around It.
>> It it it this this is going to be people are going to get mad at me on the internets for saying this.
>> Your new primary relationship is your marriage.
>> Yeah.
>> And that is hard. So I would say less if there are secrets, but there are boundaries.
>> Okay.
>> And what I don't want that ever to become is that you don't have a safe place to go anymore. Right? Let's say he got abusive or let's say this happened again or let's say he comes tomorrow and says, "Hey, there's one more secret I didn't tell you. And then two days later, there's one more secret I didn't tell you. Um, there comes a moment when I'm going to need to open the gate to my own boundaries for safety purposes, right?
>> Yeah.
>> But there is a discomfort when I didn't have this with my siblings, but I did have this with some of my childhood buddies. Like we told everybody each other everything. Everything.
>> Yeah.
>> And it was a probably a year into my marriage and my wife, my buddy made a comment and she was looked at me and she's like, "You told him that?" And I was like, I tell them everything. And she was like, that's ours. And I realized, oh yeah, right. So like what was the best part of those friendships now because I got married to somebody that's that's ours now. Not to say that I'm not don't have a group of friends that I reach out to and say I'm not all right or I'm struggling or whatever, but there is some gory details, if you will, that aren't for everybody.
>> Yeah. And dude, if you figure out how the balance of that, like how not to go too far one way or the other, you you write that book and I'll buy it. I'll be the first person to buy it because it's it's tough to figure that out, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Um, and if you feel the need, I'm I've got to say this. I got to I feel like I've got to come clean now. I wouldn't or I wouldn't recommend it. Maybe not right. It's so fresh. Maybe down the road, but um be honest with your husband about it. I can't carry this all right now. Or you go see a counselor and say, "I feel like my husband handed me a cinder block that I got to carry into Christmas dinner with my family and I don't have the tools to set this down right now."
>> Okay.
>> Cuz I want to I want to love and honor this secret world that me and him have created. But also, I don't want to lie to my sisters. They're the they're my been my ride or dies since I was a little kid.
>> Yeah.
>> I think the challenge here for you right now is this is very very raw, very painful, and it's just been uncovered. And again, I want to circle back. You trusted your guts. And I'm glad that you did that. And to his credit, he put every every everything on the table. And to his credit, he's doing the work. What I don't want you to do is run in with a fresh wound and bleed all over everybody because they're because they love you, your sisters and your family. They're not going to be able to get the blood off their shirt. And so, I would love for you and your husband to work together on what does healing look like? What does building trust look like? And when that wound is healed down the road and it's just a scar, then maybe we have that this deeper conversation. Maybe then we have you can feel like I'm not sharing so much a bloody secret, but I am being able to be open and transparent with my sisters again. Sorry you're going through this and um thanks for your honesty. This is a heavy one. But I will say this, the fact that he's willing to do the work, that you're willing to do the work, that y'all both believe in redemption, and you both believe at we're clearing the deck and we're moving forward, um that gives me high high hopes, high hopes for your long-term um outcome, for the long-term outcome and uh survival of your marriage. Not only survival, but it's going to be a good marriage. So, thank you for sharing it with me. Thanks for sharing your hurt with me. We come back, a woman asks how to rebuild her marriage after her repeated emotional infidelity. This is amazing. Montana Knife Company has just joined the Dr. John Deloney Show team. Everyone who listens to this show knows that me and my son are big hunters and fishermen. We're big outdoorsmen. And everyone also hears me talk about how my wife is one of the most amazing cooks on the planet. And for years, the only knife company that I've used is Montana Knife Company. I've bought countless Montana Knife Company knives with my own money. These knives are designed, tested, and built by real hunters and real cooks. My family and I use these knives everywhere, all the way back in the deepest parts of the woods and in our own kitchen. When you first pick up a Montana Knife Company, you can feel their perfection and their quality. They're razor sharp right out of the box. They're the easiest knives to sharpen over time and they're the toughest knives out there. My grandkids and great grandkids are going to fight over who gets to keep these knives long after I'm gone. Every Montana Knife Company knife comes with a multi-generational guarantee. And if it ever needs sharpening, you just send it back and they'll sharpen it for free and send it back to you. Montana Knife Company knives make incredible holiday gifts. I always buy several of them for my closest friends and family and they are my go-to gifts. They're amazing and they always sell out before December. They make limited runs of these amazing knives and when they're gone, they're gone. Give the outdoorsmen in your life a knife they'll actually use and pass down someday. And give the cook in your home the best kitchen knives available anywhere. Montana Knife Company knives are proudly made in the United States of America. And I'm telling you, you will not be disappointed. Go to Montana Knife Company.com to see what's available right now. That's Montana Knife Company.com.
All right, let's go to Austin, Texas, and talk to Emily. What's up, Emily?
>> Yes. Hello.
>> How we doing?
>> Um, doing all right, I think. I guess so. A little nervous.
>> Yeah. What's up?
>> Um, well, uh, I.
>> Canon. Just tuck your knees and jump [laughter] is is into the water's deep. Go for it.
>> Um well, me and my husband, we've been together for 20 years and I have had multiple instances where I reached out to other men. Usually it was online and stuff like that, but recently it was a little bit closer to home and I texted his brother.
>> So there's Yeah, it's like I said, another 20 years. I was I cheated in 2013 online, sent two guys pictures and they got found out because one of the guys ended up telling my husband. He was like, I don't know why, but he just did anyways. Um, and I cut contact with both of them for the majority, but then I did stay in contact with one of them for 10 the last 10 years. I had phone calls for the last 10 years with this guy. And it was only like occasionally every couple years we would make a phone call like how you doing whatever cuz he's on the other side of the country. And.
>> Hey, let me ask you this. Why don't you just Why don't you just leave your husband?
>> I cuz I I love him like a lot. Like I really really do. He does everything. Like he's he's freaking perfect for me. Like we're perfect for each other. We really are. Like that's 20 years I've been here.
>> I know. But you're super not. That's the challenge.
>> I don't want to leave him. I want to be here. Like I don't I don't want anybody else. I really don't.
>> Then tell me this. Why don't you want to be you?
>> I mean, I do want to be me. I'm just weird. I like being weird and I I celebrate that, but and embrace it. It's just I don't I don't know. I can't believe you said that. I and why I want to be with him. Like.
>> I I think that you want to you you you love the safety and you love the security of it all.
>> I mean, of [clears throat] course, but I love him, too.
>> I know. But you reached out to his brother. You reached out to family friends. You reached out to strangers. to get your heart rate up, for that excitement, to feel desired, to feel.
>> Yeah.
>> To feel um deviant like like that. It's like like we shouldn't be doing this.
>> Mhm.
>> And so my stock answer would be if you loved him, you would sit down and say, "Hey, we've established safety in this relationship. I want us to establish like practice, have fun with play and desire and get our heart rates up and have fun and be a little bit.
>> Instead [laughter].
>> You took you left the house with that. You didn't honor him enough. You didn't love him enough to be honest with him about those things. Or maybe you have been and he just said, "I'm not into it. I'm out."
>> No, he was trying and I wasn't. I he the more he was trying it like pushed me away and I don't know why.
>> It's not that it pushed you away. It's that you laughed.
>> That's what I'm trying to.
>> It didn't He didn't push me away. I It It just It did push me away. Like like was like, you know, talk to me like, you know, let's go out. Let's go have fun. And I'm just like, I don't really want to go out. Like I I don't know.
>> And what I'm trying to get you like there's a and it might be pain related, okay? So, I want to honor it, but I but I I don't [clears throat] I'm not going to back down from this this chief thing. You're avoiding reality here.
>> Yeah, for sure. That's what I was doing.
>> But you're avoiding it with me. I And that means you're avoiding it with yourself. Because if you love this guy and he's perfect and you want him and you want to be with him, you don't call his brother.
>> Yeah, I know.
>> You don't hurt somebody that deeply to get your heart rate up 30 beats a minute. [clears throat]
>> Yeah. And so I guess that like I'm asking you like why haven't you left him?
>> Um we have four kids and we haven't been here so long and we've just like we created this.
>> Now we're getting to the truth.
>> That to me fel feels much more honest than cuz he's perfect and I love him. The layer beneath that is there's a sunk cost.
To this thing. I've got four kids. I've got responsibilities. He is safe and I want something else. And so, let me ask you this question. What is it about? Maybe you don't want to escape yourself. Maybe you do love yourself and from the inside out, you are completely okay with you. What is it about this life you have co-created with him that feels so suffocating that it just increasingly shoots out in wild ways, like sending nude photos to somebody and then deceptively not cutting it off for a decade? What is it about going back to that person feels like an IV drip of aliveness?
Well, see, with that person, the last 10 years wasn't even like that. I was actually, it was mostly to me, I was like, just a friend. That's not what that guy ever wanted, and I understand that. But to me, it was just like somebody on the other side of the country I'm going to keep in check. And we didn't even do that for the last 10 years.
I know that. I know that. I know that. But imagine your husband sitting across the table from you watching the exchange.
Yeah, I know. And hearing about it and still not even completely knowing if that was all or like what we talked about.
And that's what I'm saying. He's like, "Did you ever plan to run away with him?" I'm like, "No, I never planned to run away and start a life with him." Like, he's this old dude. Like, I do not want that. He's a loser. It was just somebody that, like you said, got my heart rate up.
And I know. I know. But you're looking at love backwards. You're looking at love, me first, you second. And when you get married to somebody and you build a life with somebody, you say, "Your life first, me second, and I hope and pray to God that I'm first for you." Right? That's I need to do that.
And you need to do that 20 years ago or last week before you. You get what I'm saying, right? And so when you look through at your partner through you first, it's all about how I feel and you're pushing me away and this makes me uncomfortable and I don't like that and everything's about me, me, and you just stare at your belly button more and more and more. There is none, zero. When you sit down with your husband and say, "He either catches you or you admit it. I've been sending nude pictures to strangers across the country and I've cut him off." There is no circumstance where it's okay to circle back other than I'm intentionally trying to hurt you or I care so little about you that I'm just going to get one little click on the morphine drip. And that's where I'm asking you that question. What is so uncomfortable about the world you've co-created? Why do you need to get out of it so bad sometimes?
I'm not sure. I'm working on that. Uh, just started with a therapist and then we also have a couple's therapist. So I'm doing individual therapy and we're going to couples therapy.
Okay. I'll just tell you on the front end, therapy is awesome and great for digging into like what is happening inside of my guts, inside of my chest when I do these things. But before you walk into a therapist's office, you have to make two commitments. One, you will tell the therapist, both your couple's therapist and individual, 100% of the truth. And I think that's really tough for you, cuz it hurts, doesn't it?
I can though. I mean, I can and I have and I've said everything. It doesn't feel like it to him. And I understand that because I lied for so long.
He's got two decades. Yeah, there you go. And the second thing is, is before we get to the why is this happening, and what is an ironclad? This cannot and will not ever happen again.
I know for sure it can't and it won't.
Okay. But then you look at him and you hold both of his hands and say, "I surrender." He gets to make the path back for trust, and you have to decide whether I'm going to walk that path or not. And what I think has happened is you've done these things over the years and then you tell him what's going to happen next, and he's beat down and he's exhausted and he's heartbroken and he says, "Okay." And what has to happen now is you take a knee and surrender and say, "You make the path back to trust. I'm that much, I'm in. And it might look like I have a brick phone with one number in it. It's mine. I'm being ridiculous. I say we don't have internet at the house."
You throw your laptop out in the street and we run over it with a car. But he gets to decide what the path back is.
Yeah, he's he's in my phone. He's got everything right now. So.
I know, but he's not going to be able to go to Thanksgiving without side-eyeing you and his brother. He's not. He's not going to be able to breathe.
And so maybe it's you saying, "I have blown up, thrown a grenade in the middle of your family. I'm going to opt out. I want you to go to Thanksgiving with your family this time."
Well, we pretty much host the Thanksgiving. It's at our house. So, it's like, really, there's no avoiding it.
There's no such. There's no such thing as no avoiding it. Your marriage is in too desperate of a place. And if you'll allow yourself, you're in a really desperate place, right? Because either you're in a marriage you don't want to be in, you're in a life that you've co-created that you no longer want to be in, or you are really, really frustrated with yourself and you don't know where to turn. Both of those avenues are a desperate place, right? Push back and challenge me if you think I'm wrong.
Well, I I don't think you're wrong about me and myself. It's like about wanting to be here. I definitely want to be here and I want to have a life with him and I see us getting old together and I want that. I guess it's just myself.
Okay. What? Give me. Give me the run-up. Give me the two weeks before.
He was at the house a lot, working out in the house and doing stuff in the garage. He was just around a lot.
And you were into him?
I guess.
Don't. But see, that's just an evasive thing. Yes. I was having feelings for my husband's brother.
Yeah. It's weird. And weird. It's not weird.
I mean, I guess technically it's weird.
It is. He's not my brother, but if it was my brother, be a little definitely definitely crossing some lines. But yeah. Yeah. Uh, I don't know. I just.
It just feels like you're this is a game to you.
And it's just. It's not a game.
I know it's not a game because it's my husband. Like.
I know, but it's so bad. It's you. It's you. It's your husband. It's your kids. It's an extended family. And it's okay to see somebody who comes over and be like, "Man, that guy's really attractive, or I like being around that guy, but I'm married to him, and so I need you to be done working at the house, or I'm going to leave, or I'm going to go talk to somebody. I'm going to put my phone away." Those are decisions adults make. If I'm walking down the sidewalk with my wife and some beautiful woman walks by, I can acknowledge, man, she's beautiful. And I keep walking. I can turn and gawk at her. I can secretly behind my wife's back get her number. But I committed to my wife.
Yes, I know. And I just. I need to have self-control. I know that. I just have to do it and be committed and be here. I was just. I was on birth control for two years and it really messed up my hormones and then I came off birth control and as soon as I came off birth control, everything came flooding back, including those kind of hormones. So it was just like.
Yeah, but hormones are a context. They're not an excuse.
I know they're not because I did it before birth control as well and it's just like I said, I was muted for two years. I was muted for two years.
I get that. I get that. Then tell your husband, "Buckle up, buddy."
Right? He knows. He knows everybody. Obviously, that's this is what happened. He He already knew as soon as I was going off birth control. He was like, "Are you going to cheat on me again?" And I was like, "No." I'm not trying to laugh, but I'm trying not to cry.
I got that. I totally got that. I get that. That's the way I handle it, too. There's a. There's a what I would call a reckoning of reality that has to happen, which is this this this sense and I want you to do it with a therapist, not by yourself, because it's really heavy, but it's this sense that I betrayed myself and I betrayed this man who's given 20 years of his life to me. And if he's got problems, if he's abusive, he's whatever, you got to be honest about that stuff, too. But he sounds like he's a great guy.
He He is great.
Okay. And I find myself escalating this thing. Now I'm going after his brother. There's a reckoning that has to happen. I got to stand in the ashes of reality because now he can't call his brother to come over and help with some stuff. And yeah, he's got a reckoning with his brother, but he's got a reckoning with you. And it's you fully not only taking verbal ownership. I did this thing. I did this thing and I don't want to have ever happen again. You're going to have to sit and feel it. I betrayed myself. I betrayed him. Or I didn't betray myself. I just don't want to do this anymore. I wouldn't recommend that, but that can be the path you take. But there's something about just owning this and then making some really powerful declarative statements. I will never do this again. And I take a knee. Honey, you get to decide the path back to trust because I've blown it up too many times. I've been an untrustworthy spouse. Will you still have me? And if so, what does the path look like? Because I'm all in. Or I'm not. I'm not all in. And you get to make that choice. You still have agency here. But it's not a game. And it's not, whoops. And it's not, oh, the hormones made. It's not none of that. It's you making some choices. And now you got to look the guy that you love in the eye and say, I hurt you again. I got to own it. I got to ask you, will you still have me? Keep doing the work, Emily. Keep doing the work. Got a long, long way to go. We come back, everybody's heading into the holidays. If you're listening to this episode right now, you're in the middle of the holidays. And if you're like millions and millions of folks, you have found yourself in holiday chaos. I got an idea for you when we come right back.
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[music] I love you guys. We'll see you soon.