Transcription
Hello, hello. How are you? Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. It is a great pleasure for me, Arif, to meet you all again. I hope you are always in good health and remain spirited. Uh, last Monday, a number of senior doctors reported the Minister of Health, who is usually known as Ir. Budi Gunadi Sadikin, to the Metro Jaya Regional Police. And the one who reported him was a senior lawyer, I think he is retired now, Mr. Kaligis. Now, why was this Minister of Health reported by a number of senior doctors? I invite you to join one of the doctors who participated in the report, namely Dr. Nur dari Saleh. Assalamualaikum. Waalaikumsalam. Mas Harsu. How are you? Fine, thank you. Why are these senior figures involved? I know you are quite senior. Professor Zainal Muttaqin is also senior, and others. How many people reported him? Can you mention who they are? Uh, it is said that Mr. Budi Gunadi Sadikin is using a fake degree. This is a serious matter if a public official uses a fake degree. Well, first, let me introduce myself. Mr. Arsul, our group of five indeed consists of Prof. Zainal Muttaqin, Prof. Budi Iman Santoso, myself Nurdadi Saleh, then Dr. Baharudin, and also dr. Er Supriadi. Uh. So, before this, in February, we had sent a legal notice to Mr. Budi Gunadi Sadikin regarding the misuse of degrees. Okay. He graduated from ITB with a degree in nuclear physics. Okay. That is the MIPA group. Not engineering, not engineering. So his degree should be Dr. Andes. Okay. IR. Yes. So, we sent a notice that he was using the degree IR. Whereas he should be using the degree Dr. Andes, but he has a degree, he has a diploma, yes, sir. It's not that he never studied, never graduated from ITB, no. He is indeed an alumnus of ITB, from the Physics department. Correct. Okay. So, we had sent a legal notice to Mr. Budi Gunadi Sadikin, but it was completely ignored. Uh, okay. We thought that, as Mr. Haru also said, he is a public figure, a public official, a prominent figure in this country, a minister, he should be able to set an example. Secondly, he should also be able to give honor, respect to academic degrees. Yes. Why should he be ashamed? Uh-huh. Or unhappy with using Doctor Andes? Uh-huh. Even though that is indeed the case. Uh-huh. Based on that, Mr. Arsu, because our legal notice was not responded to, we went to the Metro Jaya Police on Monday to file a police report. Yes, before this, was it checked with ITB that he indeed graduated from the MIPA department? Yes, it was checked. So it was thoroughly checked that he is indeed an alumnus of ITB and he is from the nuclear physics department. Yes. Yes. Okay. So, all this time he has been using that engineer degree. Is it just a title or is it used in official documents from the ministry? Yes. Yes. That's precisely why we are bringing this to a legal matter. Yes, because it is used in official documents, sir. There are proofs of that, right? Yes, there are 10 proofs that we have attached to the police. Yes. Yes, I remember two of them. One is during a hearing with the council, from the minutes, he signed the minutes of the hearing with Ir. Budi Gunadi Sadike. His signature is there. His signature is there. Okay. Yes. Uh. The second is in the pocket book about Health Law Number 17 of 2023, he also signed with the title engineer Budi Gunadi Sadik. Okay. Oh, so there is indeed proof in black and white, yes, like that. Because a colleague of mine, like Rocky Gerung, is often called Professor Rocky Gerung. He is not a professor. But similarly, yesterday during the investigation at the Metro Jaya Police. Yes. I told the investigator, like me. I said, yes, yes, because I am older and senior, a friend of several professors, some juniors call me Professor Nur. I said, I am not a professor. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. We must say it gentlemanly, right? That is an academic degree. It must be accounted for. If I am not a professor, then don't call me a professor. Uh-huh. Okay. Okay. Okay. What is the impact of his action in using the engineer degree? Uh. Well, perhaps in terms of technical impact, policy impact, there is none. But in terms of legitimacy and credibility, it has a significant impact. Uh. Yes. So that is what we want to convey, that he should be able to maintain his dignity as a public official, a high-ranking official, and even an academic. Yes. And the funny thing, Mr. Harsu, he is a trustee of ITB. Okay. Now, in the list of ITB trustees, everyone has a degree. Except him. Oh, now he doesn't use a degree. He doesn't want to use a degree. Oh, he doesn't use a degree at all, Budi Gunadi. Uh-huh. Yes. So, but if someone doesn't use a degree, there's no problem. Uh, Doctor. There's no problem. But in an educational institution, right? And he is a trustee and he has a degree. Yes. Why isn't it displayed? Uh-huh. It's as if, as if, Mr. Arso, he is ashamed to have the DAES degree. Uh-huh. As if. Now, you have engaged a lawyer, a senior lawyer, Mr. Kaligis. Does using a degree different from the one actually held have criminal legal consequences? Yes. Yes. So, there are two articles that we have put forward. Firstly, general criminal law, I forget the number. It states that this is a forgery. Forgery. Okay. Then. Then, the more specific one regarding engineering, how about the law on the use of attributes as an engineer. Uh-huh. Yes, sir. So, there are two articles that we have submitted to the police. Yes, this is my question. You are a doctor, and he is now the Minister of Health. Of course, this will have implications with the Minister of Health. If Professor Zainal Muttaqin, I know he once had a dispute with Mr. Budi Gunadi Sadikin. But Dr. Nurdadi, you haven't had any problems with him so far, or have you? Oh, no personal problems, sir, because I am already, uh-huh, old now, 75 years old. When he became minister, I had already retired everywhere. And I was last in the Indonesian Army, sir. Oh. Oh. Oh. So, in the Indonesian Army, Dr. Nurdadi, previously, I was his junior, sir, so there was never a problem, personally. But is there a connection with the many issues that are arising now that he is the Minister of Health, and it is linked to his competence? Well, so, let me just tell Mas Arsu. So, this is actually a collection of problems that we have repeatedly brought to the Constitutional Court, to the State Administrative Court, and so on. This is part of a summary of how he has caused controversial issues. Okay. First, he created the Health Law so quickly, like lightning. We had hearings and so on, but all the results were like that, strong. Uh, okay. We took it to the Constitutional Court, we lost. We, in the sense of doctors, sir. Yes. Yes. Yes. Then, article by article, we took it. Then, he did something even more bombastic, he took over the function of specialist doctor education through collegiums. Uh. A collegium should be a body formed by a group of experts and composed of education experts and professors. Uh. Which is independent. Yes. But in the government regulation number 28, it is stated that the minister can intervene. Uh, the minister forms it. Yes. We took it to the PTUN, we lost, we appealed, we lost, we petitioned for cassation, we lost. Then Prof. J. Prof. Johans took it to the Constitutional Court, and we won. Uh-huh. But he still refused to accept the outcome. Uh. He still considers that what he has done is correct as per the mandate of the Constitutional Court. So, if we say it's correct, why was it reviewed by the Constitutional Court? Uh, that's the problem, sir. Complaining about the handling of our vocal people. Uh, like Muttaqin. Uh. Diprim, maybe you've heard. Yes. Pediatrician. Yes. Pediatric cardiologist. All dismissed, not in accordance with his policy, sidelined. Uh. So it caused chaos. Okay. In hospitals, he made a policy that there are departments related to the faculty of medicine and departments related to the hospital director. Uh. One is for education, the other is for service. Whereas before, one department was led by a head of department who handled education, service, research, and so on. Yes, the entire system, in simple terms, was messed up. Uh. Uh. So, we brought all of this to the legal realm. Yes. We brought it all. Now, this is part of, yes, showing, actually, the goal is this, Mahasu. Uh. Market. We want President Prabowo to know that he has a minister who does not use his degree as he should. Okay. Yes. That shows that this person is certainly not someone who can defend his academic dignity and credibility. What's the point? Hm. Why not use what is rightfully theirs? Uh. So, that is what we actually want with our report to the police, so that perhaps, hopefully, Mr. Prabowo can hear and see what is actually going on. Okay. Why are old doctors being reported to the police? Actually, the civil case is also ongoing, Prof. Yes, roughly. So, it could be that people think because they are suing through various channels and losing, as Dr. Nurdadi said, but winning in the Constitutional Court, so they keep looking for weaknesses from Dr. Budi Gunadi Sadikin, isn't that right? People can certainly interpret it that way, yes, they can. But we want to show the world who this person is, that it's not wrong to attack in PTUN, attack in the Constitutional Court, attack the doctors, and so on. And it turns out that this person, when given the original degree, doesn't even want it. Yes. And perhaps, if it's just a piece, yesterday someone even said, "This is because of the fake diploma issue, so we have a fake degree, right?" Yes. Yes. Uh. I say, people can interpret it that way, but actually, this is the connection from us, the group of doctors, to show that Mr. Budi Gunadi Sadikin, as a public official, a high-ranking official, and as an academic, is not good at maintaining integrity and credibility. Yes, that's roughly it, sir. So, on such a fundamental issue, he is not responsible enough, let alone on other matters. That's what is meant, right? Yes. So, Mas, this is not an isolated incident, but part of the entire sequence of problems. Yes. But this, because it has entered the realm of the police report, it means it's a criminal case, right? Uh, but earlier there was also a civil consequence. Yes, there is. So, we have also filed a civil lawsuit regarding this. Uh. Yes. But if it's a civil lawsuit, it's not as sensational as a police report. But it happened first. Okay. Okay. What is the civil claim? If this is detrimental, detrimental. Meaning, detrimental, I forget the exact details, but it is detrimental that someone does not present themselves as they truly are, which is certainly detrimental to reputation. Okay. But I cannot state the exact civil claim accurately because I do not master it. Okay. I suspect, because all the reporters are senior figures who no longer have much to lose, is it that the younger ones are no longer brave enough to report, so the seniors have to step in? Yes, perhaps if the juniors say to us, Dr. Nurdadi, he has finished with himself. Okay. If we, if we make a fuss, we will be transferred. Uh-huh. Threatened with transfer to another region. Threatened, removed from our jobs in the hospital. Yes. So, we are not as brave as our friends and seniors like Dr. Nurdadi. Because Dr. Nurdadi has finished with himself, sir. Yes. But indeed, there is such a fear. During his era, Mr. Budi Gunadi Sadikin, this fear has emerged, a lot of it. Yes. What is happening, sir? Yes. So, I can mention one example, a professor from a pediatric department, related to when we first went to PTUN, then he backed down a bit because Dr. Nurdadi, when it was discovered that I was involved, I was approached by my colleagues. Uh-huh. Prof., please restrain yourself, Prof. Uh-huh. We are being threatened with transfer. Uh. So, the subordinates said, well, as a leader, he naturally thinks, oh, pity them all. But it's extraordinary. Uh. So, what is his name, his steps, his steps, in the sense of Budi Gunadi Sadikin, are harsh. Harsh, completely. Of course, it can be made to seem that it is all based on civil servant regulations. Uh-huh. For example, let me tell you a little story, sir? Yes, please continue. Yes, please. Dr. PB Prim was first transferred from Cipto Hospital to Fatmawati Hospital with the excuse that there was no interventional cardiologist there. Yes, even though Dr. Piprin at Cipto Hospital was performing examinations, treatments, and interventions for pediatric cardiology, and also educating sub-specialists in pediatric cardiology. So, a pediatrician wanting to take a sub-specialty in cardiology and also educating sub-sub-specialists in interventional pediatric cardiology. Yes. Then he said to the RSM director, "Okay, I'll be transferred there." But this one, don't let me leave. What I am responsible for is this: let's arrange it so that I am at Fatmawati twice a week, and here three times a week. Uh. No, Cipto. Uh. Because he resisted. Uh-huh. Mr. Budi Gunadi Sadikin. Uh-huh. Then he was given a warning letter. Given a warning letter. So, after three warning letters, he was dismissed. Yes. Because Dr. Bif was unwilling to leave his students. Yes. Here, it's like that, his approach is harsh. Dr. Professor Muttaqin, a rare neurosurgeon, actually, specializing in epilepsy. Yes. Yes. He even became an operator in Japan. Uh-huh. Yes. But because he disagreed, because he wrote about the Health Law. Uh. The Director of Karyadi Hospital was told, "He, he leaves, or I'll transfer you?" Oh. Hmm. Yes. Okay. Uh. Yes. So, all of this is a collection, a collection of what we, the doctors, want to show the world, to Mr. Prabowo in particular, who can be held accountable. Okay. Like that. Throughout your career as a doctor, you have had many Ministers of Health. Has a situation like this ever happened before? Never, never happened. It was a bit shaky when Mr. Terawan became Minister of Health. Yes. Uh. But he was only minister for a short time. The shakiness was about COVID, saying "don't be afraid of COVID," who told you to re-ing, maybe you remember. But, but he was still a doctor. Uh. Now, this is not. Now, this is interesting. Is it because he is not a doctor that this makes it seem like, "Doctors should be led by doctors, right?" Is there such a thought? Not in the sense of envy. But we see, sir. Okay. He does not understand and comprehend what epidemiology is. Okay. For example, "Oh, many people die from heart disease. Many people are waiting for cardiac catheterization." So, as Minister of Health, I will make all Regional General Hospitals have cardiac catheterization facilities. Yes. I don't know, sir. Wow, this minister is amazing. So visionary. Uh. But now, our question is, who are the personnel there? Heart procedures are performed by cardiologists who further study intervention. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So, it's not just that there's a department, there's equipment, but there's no human resource. Yes. That equipment is now in the regions, sir, idle. Yes. Yes. But who will operate it? Uh-huh. I heard, but I don't have proof, that several general practitioners were sent to China to study it. Uh. Well, we ask, "Oh, if that's the case, then the catheterization technicians will come, not cardiologists who are experts in intervention." Yes. Yes. Yes. So, it's like that. Then he issued a statement that general practitioners can perform cesarean sections in remote areas. Uh. Perhaps you have heard, sir? Yes. Yes. Yes. Then I replied, "Coincidentally, I am an obstetrician." Uh. Actually, this issue was previously raised by one of the ministers, the late Minister Endang. Uh. Yes. Coincidentally, she went to the Maluku region, she saw this. It seems the problem is because specialist doctors are difficult to distribute. So, let's train general practitioners for cesarean sections. At that time, I was the head of the Indonesian Obstetricians Association. Uh. I said it's not allowed. Uh. Why? When we studied to be able to perform surgery, we studied for 2 years, sir. Uh. Only then could we perform surgery accompanied by a teacher or senior, concerning people's lives, we could fly solo, sir. Uh. Yes. Then, a general practitioner is trained for only 3 months and is allowed to perform surgery without guidance, without supervision. Yes, at that time I stated, sir, to the Secretary General of the Ministry of Health at that time, Mr. Supriantor, "Sir, we are going to create double zeros, sir." Oh, what is that, Dr. Nurdadi, double zero? Have you watched James Bond movies? Uh. License to Kill. Uh-huh. Double zero. So, he kills, and it's legal. Uh. Yes. Uh. Imagine, the cases are rare. Uh-huh. There are no supervisors, only 3 months of study, what's like that? Then what was the doctor's answer? Send specialist doctors to the regions. Hmm. Sir, when I was in Minister Nila's time, I said, "I have a concept. We have a professional concept, namely mandatory service for specialist doctors." One year in the region. Uh. Yes. At that time, five specialties: obstetrics, surgery, internal medicine, pediatrics, and anesthesia. Uh-huh. Go ahead. Uh. But it was taken to the Supreme Court, judicially reviewed by a doctor who said it violated human rights. Uh. Yes. Yes. Those who implemented it never protested. Uh. But 98% of the needs were met. Yes. I told Mr. Budi Gunadi when I was still the head of the Specialist Doctor Placement Committee at K. "Sir, you are wrong to want to produce a lot, the important thing is distribution first, sir. I am not against production, it's impossible." Uh-huh. He insisted. So, perhaps you have heard of hospital-based training. Hospital-based training. Yes. Uh. Yes. So, hospitals can train specialists. Uh. Uh. So, all of these are a collection of policies. Okay. Earlier, you bought 10,000 ultrasound machines. Uh-huh. For community health centers. Uh-huh. I said, "Have you ever known about community health centers?" This is related to doctors or not, sir? Yes. Yes. Yes. Not all community health centers have electricity, sir. Hm. Yes. Uh. Yes. Yes. Have you been to community health centers everywhere, sir? Yes. Yes. From Sabang to Merauke, I said. Yes. Yes. Then, if there is an ultrasound, who is the operator? Yes. Yes. The doctor, they say. Do all community health centers have doctors? No. No. Then, okay, those that have doctors. Are those doctors competent? Yes. Are they performing it? He answered the president at the time, "The people are happy now, sir, they can get an ultrasound examination." But what about the quality of the ultrasound itself? Okay. So, the problems with Mr. Budi Gunadi Sadikin are piling up. Because, as I said, he is not a doctor. It is absolutely true that heart disease is prevalent. But there is a pyramid, starting from the bottom, we start with preventive measures, healthy living, good nutrition, proper lifestyle, and so on, not smoking, and so on. Yes. Then choosing that step. Uh-huh. Not based on bottom-up. So, it's all top-down. So, top-down policies, what are they? No region ever requested it. Uh-huh. Catheterization. For all regional hospitals. Yes. So, that's how it is, sir. That's why we think he doesn't understand. Hm. It's not that we are envious, sir. Yes. Yes. Understand. The soul of a doctor as a health manager. Yes, it's not because I'm a doctor, but indeed, sir. Try to listen now, there are doctors dying while on duty, so many. Because doctors are on duty, sir. That's nonsense, sir. 40 hours a week is nonsense, because a doctor, sir, in the regions, is on duty 24/7, sir. Yes. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. We are at 10 PM, sir. If the people knock, we can't say no, sir. The next day we will be paraded by the people, sir. We cannot say this is outside our working hours, Doctor. It's very hard, Prof. Very hard, Doc. This, Doc. Uh. Yes. So, there's no such thing as a doctor having 40 hours, but it needs to be regulated. It should be regulated, right? Similarly, in certain places, sir. Uh-huh. Where there is only one doctor. Uh. Then there is an internship helping the doctor, also handling administration, yes, meetings with the regency, and so on. 120 patients, it's sometimes unavoidable, sir. So, that's how it is, doctor. Yes. So, he doesn't feel that, sir. It's easy to say 40 hours. Well, try it in Jakarta, maybe it can be arranged like that. If we are in a region, sir, there is only one doctor. I was an obstetrician in Magelang as a doctor. There were only two, one in the general hospital, one in the military hospital. No excuses. Uh-huh. Whether it's Eid al-Fitr, or any other day, if a patient with bleeding comes, I can't say, "Oh, it's over, my working hours are finished." I can't, right? Working hours are not applicable. Yes. Uh. Yes. That's how it is for doctors. Yes. Yes. So, he is not a doctor. We are not envious at all. Perhaps at that time, Mr. Jokowi appointed him because he was successful as a manager. Okay, perhaps. But returning to Mr. Arsu's question, are we... Oh, no, sir, not at all. No. Yes. If only he were willing to listen to what we have to say. If only he were willing to discuss with us about it, then we certainly would not have... So, this is also a story, sir. Okay. He gathered us, he gathered us for a policy. Uh. He spoke, we spoke, sir, expressing our thoughts. Uh. Then the decision came out according to his thoughts. Then he said, "I have gathered professors and senior doctors, and they have agreed." Oh, okay. So, it was just for justification, then? Exactly, that's the term, sir. Yes. Uh. Okay. Okay. So, it is undeniable that the reason for reporting the diploma issue is due to the accumulation of various policies he has implemented. Absolutely, sir, Mas. Well, we will wait. So, because this is now the realm of the police, right? Uh. If it's already... Criminal realm, right? Yes. Yes. Okay, in that case, see you again, Doctor. We will wait for further developments. We will wait to see if the police will take action or not. Because usually in Indonesia, they say if it involves powerful people, it's difficult, sir. Correct. Correct. Yes, when we wanted to report yesterday, there was also some resistance. Uh. But perhaps because Mr. OC Kaligis, who is senior, came, and Mr. OC Kaligis's opening statement was, "By chance, the police officer is a woman, so that the police officer knows that I was Prabowo's defender in the Constitutional Court during the 2020 election." Okay. Oh, yes. Well. That's it. Okay, let's call this "Good luck, warriors, old warriors, all of you who have descended from the mountains." Thank you very much, Mas Arsu. On behalf of my friends, I was given the opportunity to exchange thoughts with you. Hopefully, this is beneficial and useful. Dr. Nur dari Saleh. Uh, thank you. Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. Waalaikumsalam warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. Yeah.