A Professor Researched Charlie Kirk for Years... Here's What He Discovered.

Coming up on the Preach Boys podcast.

That memorial service really for me was a direct Christian nationalism memorial service. There were certainly people eulogizing Charlie Kirk, but then as the day wore on and more and more Trump administration officials spoke, you can see that they wanted to use his name to further their agenda.

I think the question that can come up often is, okay, they want to Christianize the nation. They want to make kids more patriotic. They want to, you know, teach biblical values. Big whoop. That sounds great. Why should people be more concerned about the spread of Christian nationalism?

Ain't nobody safe. Ain't nobody safe in able.

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Bridge Boys podcast. Today on the show I'm sitting down with Dr. from Matthew Bodie, the author of The Seven Mountains Mandate: Exposing the Dangerous Plan to Christianize America and Destroy Democracy. And Dr. Bod's book was scheduled for release on September 30th, 2025. But of course, 20 days before that release date, the assassination of Charlie Kirk took place. And I've mentioned Charlie Kirk a couple times on the show. He's become relevant in a couple of the topics that I've covered. But I knew I wanted to talk to Dr. Bodhi about his extensive research on this topic. This represents years of diving into this organization, its donors, its power, political connections, etc. And obviously in the wake of the what happened with Charlie Kirk, I mean the curiosity I had about how he was processing that as someone who'd been researching for him for so long and is now examining the aftermath of this moment. Uh I it was just a conversation I I knew I had to have.

And look, I know some of you have expressed, I mean, it's been a handful of people, the majority have been very supportive, but I know there's been some who go, I don't like that you're leaning into politics or that you're, you know, talking about politics at all. And look, there's a very real thing. I mean, I've been talking to a couple friends over the last couple months and I was like, maybe, you know, I I enjoy talking about politics and, you know, maybe I could start a political podcast and just filter everything out there. But the truth is, like, there's people way more qualified, way better at articulating it. well, way more research and study than I am. And it's not something I want to become my main focus. I'm not someone who's interested in just yapping about politics uh every single day at the moment. But it's also something where politics is going to come up as I'm talking about Christian fundamentalism, especially in, you know, 2025 in this current moment. you know, every time that I listen to a sermon, every time that I start digging into different organizations, like more often than not, I won't say every time, but more often than not, there are strong ties to certain political groups and political ideology is leveraged either to advance people into their religion or their religion is used to advance political causes. And those things are just going to come up and we need to talk about them.

And I I try to lay my cards out on the table on this show. There's times that I am being journalistic and reporting on here's a story, here's what happened, let's go. And when something's my opinion, you know, and I have my own, just like everybody watching, I have my own political ideas about certain things, you know, I try to make that known like, hey, this is my opinion. This is what I've noticed. This is what I've seen. And then my guests have the same thing. You know, they're coming from a place where, you know, as a professor who studied this from this perspective, this is what he's seen. And if I talk to someone who's in politics, you know, who has a certain perspective, like former Congressman Adam Kinzinger or Lindseay Boland, who was just recently on the show, you know, they're going to have their perspectives as well. But I think it's naive to say that politics doesn't belong anywhere near the topics I'm covering regularly on the show. I think there is so much crossover there and it's necessary to talk about and so I'm going to do so. I'm 5 years into the show. I've talked about many different issues and there's times where there are a there's a need to cover certain things in more depth right now. There's a lot politically happening I think needs to be discussed. There's been periods where it needs to be the trouble tea industry. There's times it needs to be, you know, the public school system. It needs to be law enforcement. I'm following these threads where they take me and trying to talk about them in a intelligent way. And where my intelligence or my knowledge falls short, I bring in incredible guests like Dr. bod to talk about these topics.

So, I I I'll stop talking now and get into that conversation, but I I just want you guys to know the mindset going to these. Like, I'm not trying to pivot into being a a David Pacman or a Sam Cedar or a you know, or the Young Turks or, you know, Ben Shapiro or whatever side or angle or commentator you want to throw in there. I'm certainly not trying to be a Ben Shapiro, though. I'll be very clear there. You know, I I I'm trying to talk about these organizations. I try to talk about it fairly, try to talk about them in a way that understands where they're coming from and engages with what I think are really bad ideas and, you know, endorse the things that I think are really good ideas. Um, and so that's that's context going to the show, but you know, for those of you that want me to be radio silent on these topics, it's not going to happen. This is stuff that's important. It's going to come up. And, you know, I'm so thankful for experts like Dr. Bod who are pointing out the dangers of things like we're seeing in the Christian nationalist movement. people that are pointing out the really fascist tendencies of the current administration, the attacks on free speech and democracy and, you know, and all of the ways that the evangelical support of those things, you know, has has taken place. And so anyway, that's the context going into the show. I'd love to read your guys' comments. Be sure to leave something in the comments of this video if you're watching on YouTube or on social media. If you're watching a clip, you know, let me know what you think. I'd love to read your guys' opinions, how these things are landing for you and uh your biggest concerns or things that you might think are not a big deal. Uh I love getting to know all of you as an audience and I love how diverse this audience is. So there's never a shortage of differing opinions to filter through. So thank you guys so much for watching. Enjoy this conversation with Dr. Matthew Bodie.

Dr. Bod, thank you so much for joining me.

I am happy to be here. You know, I mentioned before we hit record, this has probably been a very interesting and busy couple of weeks. I mean, first and foremost, for context for my audience, your book was scheduled to release September 30th, 20125 and a primary focus of the book was Charlie Kirk and then two weeks before release or just about two weeks before release, this assassination happens. I mean, how did that land for you as someone who's been researching this for years? Has a book about to come out and then this totally unprecedented thing happens? Like what was going through your mind that day when you saw the news?

I certainly thought it was a tragedy. I got choked up there on the ride home. I was in the car on the ride home when we got notification of his death. I had heard about the shooting before and I knew that, you know, that could be bad, especially being on a college campus. And I think that um you know my my next thought after that was obviously his his wife is a widow now with two kids. I have two kids. So it was difficult there a few days. I I did some early interviews and I went back and listened to them and you can just hear it in my voice. You know I'm exhausted. I'm tired. But also I don't want to I don't want to come across as someone who's just interested in selling a book. Many people do ask about the book at that point. And yeah, as you've kind of alluded to, I've I've been around the world on on Zoom the last few weeks. And I I don't say that to put myself in the center of the story as some sort of expert, though I obviously have a book about it. But there there was a global interest in not just his death, but but in Turning Point and Charlie Kirk beyond the United States. Um, but I will say, you know, one of the reasons we decided, me and the publisher decided to to not put him in the title or the subtitle or put his picture on the cover is because we decided most of America did not know who he was. And even if they did, they kind of knew him as a Fox News person or maybe a college campus person and and then certainly had no idea about the seven mountains. So, we went with the unknown thing much more prominently, the most unknown thing. So yes, the certaint of the book was to come out on the 30th and it is out. You can buy it at any bookstore or Amazon and it was finished Februaryish and you know have not have not changed a word in it since it come out. So it is it is out there now.

One of the things that is, you know, interesting to me right now is like there's a lot of dialogue about what's appropriate to talk about and and you know, I I certainly felt the same way and probably not at the same level because you've been so imshed in this world. So, you have this kind of almost parasocial relationship, I'm sure, with that figure and that organization at this point. Um, but you know, I like many people, you see something no human being should see. You're considering all these things. I mean, the first note that I wrote down cuz I knew at some point I'd have to talk about it was, you know, Charlie Kurs kids are not registered Republicans, you know, and like that was kind of the first thing that came to mind is like, okay, there's this culture war thing. There's someone who acted in this extreme way for reasons still not fully known. And regardless of what the motive was, you know, there's a lot of victims here, you know, that even go beyond Charlie, which even then was not an acceptable thing. My my my takeaway was, and I don't know if you agree with this, was I think it's important to talk about the ideals, you know, almost immediately because they're being talked about anyway. And I know how much evangelicals and Christian nationalists love having a martyr. So, they're going to try to lionize these ideas. And so, I think it is appropriate to talk about it. But there's also some that go, you know, there hasn't even been a funeral yet. You know, there's there was all those steps along the way. People are going, "Hold on, don't talk about this yet. Don't get into the beliefs." What was your approach on that? Did you second guess talking about it immediately? Like, where did you fall into that?

You know, to be honest with you, within hours of of the death being announced, I got calls from reporters. So, it really to me was not a choice whether or not I would participate in the conversation. Um, I did it and I did several long form podcasts there the next day talking about I think who he was. Again, I I would suggest many Americans did not know who he was. And so, at the moment of his death, you're you're introduced to him. And then at the memorial service, you're introduced to Turning Point, I think, for many people for the first time.

And that memorial service really for me was a direct Christian nationalism memorial service. There were certainly people eulogizing Charlie Kirk. But then as the day wore on and more and more Trump administration officials spoke, you can see that they wanted to use his name to further their agenda. And you had this stark contrast at the end obviously with Erica Kirk saying, "I forgive my husband's killer." And Donald Trump saying, "I don't forgive. I don't I hate my enemies." And all that he said there. I think that and and in reading about the memorial service from from not just media people but from turning point allies they they forget that that second part of it. They they don't talk about Trump's speech. They don't talk about Stephen Miller's bizarre speech. They really just talk about all the things that they said about Charlie, which I guess is understandable. Um but at the same time, I think what I'm getting at is is in the first couple days I did not want to say negative things. I certainly pointed out he was a Christian nationalism you and he was an heir to the seven mountains mandate. But as as the weeks have gone on, I I really tried in media interviews to give them the bigger picture. um and and to talk about some of the comments he made about different groups of people and where he go with those, you know. And then we had this list this list of I don't know how many people are on it now, but that there's a group out there that is uh finding social media comments by people, professors, and people in government and getting them fired for saying some ridiculous stupid things, but also some innocuous, you know, I guess negative things. Um so many people have asked me like, "Are you do you feel targeted at the moment?" I I don't and I think that's for two reasons. One, I don't really say inflammatory things all the time. And then I'm I'm at a while my name is out there, I'm at a school some people or many people don't know. Um, and I I guess I I didn't feel the targeting of other people, but certainly I wanted to tell the truth in a, you know, humane way.

We're going to get back to today's episode in just a minute. But first, I want to mention that this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. October 10th was World Mental Health Day, and it served as a great reminder of how important it is to take care of ourselves. And finding the right therapist can make all the difference. I saw this firsthand about a year ago when I was going through some of the biggest transition periods within my life. And being able to use BetterHelp to find the perfect therapist for me was so incredibly helpful. and they made it easy to find a licensed therapist who works with a strict code of conduct and they're also committed to finding the perfect match. The first therapist I found, full transparency, I did not enjoy my experience at all. But I was able to quickly within the app make a couple of changes and select a new therapist and that one ended up being an absolute gamecher for me. I loved every single session I had with them and it became a highlight of my week. With 30,000 therapists and over 5 million people served worldwide, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform with sessions averaging 4.9 out of five stars across 1.7 million reviews. So, if you're ready to put your mental health first, BetterHelp can help you with that journey. Today, our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/preacherboys. That's betterhelp hp.com/preacherpoise.

All right, let's get back into this conversation. I I want to get back to the memorial, but I do want to mention you just talked about people looking for commenters, creating a database, and it's interesting you mentioned that because that's kind of how you got introduced to Charlie Kirk as a figure, which again, it blows my mind thinking whenever I hear someone say, "Oh, most people weren't aware of Charlie Kirk," which I know is true, but I feel like anybody in the weeds of like covering the topics that I'm covering on this show, it's like Charlie Kirk was the name in that world. the Kingmaker as some have called him. You mentioned your book.

I think that was my word actually that I Yeah. to the Atlantic last last fall. Yeah. So, I mean, if you if you didn't know Charlie, you got an introduction to him as his husband, father, family man, great advocate for Christianity, faith, family, and freedom. But Turning Point itself has a long history of targeting people. I was targeted by Turning Point in 2016 when again very few people knew who they were. They went viral with this professor watch list thing after the election in 2016. They came up with this list of professors they didn't like and I was one of the first people mentioned it and I didn't know anything about it until it came out. Um I had written an opinion piece for our local paper advocating against allowing concealed weapons, concealed firearms on college campuses here in Georgia, which is now a law that we have. And you know they couple months later found that and put that in their list. And they've added to my profile over the years of things I've said. And that's really the moment I started paying attention to them cuz I was not aware of them before that. And you know that that list is your picture and your contact information and all the things you said. It is a readymade database for people that want to find you. And I think that while that thing is not known I I guess by a lot of people. It it's been it it certainly has grown over the years from turning point. You can see the number of people they've added to, but they they've done so many other things that the professor watch list has gotten buried in all the other things that they do. And some of them they have other lists. They have a schoolboard watch list and things like that. So there are so many things that Turning Point does and they're in so many areas. Uh so certainly if you're in as you say the weeds of the culture war or into the the weeds of the conservative MAGA movement, you're well aware of them. But I don't think that many people understood how vast an organization it it is and will continue to be.

I mean, the irony kind of hit me reading your book and and I had I had read this elsewhere, heard you say an interview, but reading the book, it kind of landed for me where you were put on professor watch list for talking about, you know, concealed carry on campuses and then you're watching years later the founder of this organization being killed by a firearm on a college campus.

I mean, how did that strike you as someone examining that? I mean, obviously, you know, to immediately get ahead of this, it he wasn't killed by someone with a concealed carry. You know, it wasn't something that was exact exactly the same, but it's a firearm on a college campus.

A gun culture in America. I mean, how did that land for you as someone already worried about these issues and studying people who are actively, you know, pushing back against them?

You know, I I I wanted to point out that, you know, he travels with the security team and he has mentioned many times that he owns guns and and obviously being a proun rights person, he's talked about expanding gun rights and where guns can go and and the line that he and other people use is that the good guys always stop the bad guys and you need more guns to do that. And that was not the case here. He he goes to these college campuses with his security team and and as I think his turning points pointed out in recent days, right, they can only protect his physical presence just around him. They can't do anything else legally. And so and I don't think there was um you know known threats that they were looking for. I guess what what I'm getting at is that we have a gun problem in the United States. Both the amount of the have that we have and the way in which it is regulated. And this particular person was able to carry that in a book bag to a roof and then throw it away on his way out from the scene. Uh that tells me a lot about our gun culture. Um, and I I didn't want to honestly say all that in the days following his death. I I feel safer now saying it now a couple weeks later, but it was it was beyond ironic. It was kind of surreal, absurd to for that to happen. way in which he was assassinated. Um, you know, if he had died in a car wreck or a plane wreck or something along those lines, he still would be would be honored and eulogized. But in the way in which he did, it it it rose the martyrdom rhetoric very quickly and it has continued since then.

Yeah. I I wrote about this whole situation a few days after and after the memorial itself. Um, and I said Robert, Pastor Rob McCoy opened the service saying politics is an on-ramp to the gospel. Charlie knew if all of you started rowing in the streams of liberty, you would come to its source, Jesus Christ the Lord. And then I said, however, based on the speeches that followed, it's clear that political figures are using the gospel, quote unquote gospel, as an on-ramp to to more political power. Uh, two questions. One, are you surprised with how quickly they moved to push the martyr narrative within just hours of this happening? And then are you surprised with how little he was known by the general culture at this point, the amount of leverage that they were able to get culturally out of this moment? I mean, I was looking at the Jubilee debate with Charlie Kirk this morning. It's skyrocketed by 10 million views. His podcast is, you know, shooting up in the charts, you know, continuously. How shocked were you that they leveraged him this way? And how shocked were you by the amount of leverage they were able to exert through this moment?

I think Turning Point has always been good at what it does and it is a brand. Um, you know, with Charlie as its face, it had lots of cache already, but they're very good and the people that work there are very good at at marketing in a good sense. So, I think they knew right away, you know, um, with the the the shock of losing their boss, but they knew right away what could happen here in terms of a narrative. and and that's what they're good at is is these narratives, very simple bumper sticker ideas, hashtags that go viral. They're very good at that. So, I do think in the early days we we heard a little bit about him being a martyr for free speech, but that didn't seem to take off, if you will. But martyrdom for Christianity took off amazing and that became the thing we heard at the memorial service, which, you know, was was a week or so, you know, later. And I think that that gave them much more opportunity to to connect him with Martin Luther King and other people that have been killed. And then you had early on you had people talking about him as a prophet because he would talk about things that happened and he would talk about his death that was predicted and things like that. It was not surprising to me that they did that. They're very good at what they do. And I don't think I mean Erica is have been has been at these events before, but obviously she's not as well known. But that that that statement she gave a couple days before the memorial service in his radio show station and then at the memorial service solidified the idea that she was doubling down on all these messages. She she personally okay to write all these messages and she, you know, was married to Charlie Kirk. She was not just his confidant but the person who would okay a bunch of the things he does. I think what I'm saying is that he's she is the replacement for him.

Yeah. And you know I think I heard Andrew Colbert the spokesperson say yesterday like the turning point has doubled in size since his assassination. That means in terms of chapters and organizations and perhaps money.

Since 910 we've had about 130,000 inquiries to start either a college chapter or a high school chapter. and chapters that we have already officially started. Now remember, we we had about 900 college chapters and 1,200 high school chapters before all of this. We have added just about 800 790 new college chapters and we have added 1,819 new high school chapters. So we've essentially doubled doubled. Yeah, we doubled in size in less than a month. I think that when what we saw at the the Butler, Pennsylvania shooting, you know, when they tried or one person tried to assassinate President Trump, immediately they went to they meaning the president and his allies went to they tried to kill Trump. We saw that immediately after Charlie Kirk's assassination when they were searching for a killer, but it was it was still they did it. And even when we heard a little bit about the motive of a person, perhaps it was still that he was killed by an ideology. He was killed by this thing that this that brainwashed this one person, but it was still a they that they learned from the Butler Pennsylvania thing to do the same thing at Turning Point. So, I'm not was not surprised at all in terms of the cultural power that Turning Point has now. They were the indispensable organization for MAGA and for conservative causes before and now they're that on steroids or 10 times more than that. They are the the face of the culture war. They're their face of sacrifice. They're the face of everything now that Trump wants to do and now he's doing it in Charlie's name.

Charlie grew turning point into the largest conservative youth organization in the entire country. He forged a personal bond with countless young conservatives. He fought for free speech, religious liberty, strong borders, and a very strong and proud America. In everything he did, he put America first. He really put America first. And ultimately Charlie became more than a leader of an important organization. He became the leader of historic movements all over the country. There were movements, individual movements, one movement, but it was historic. Everything he did was historic.

I want to get back to where Turning Point is currently and where it could go at the end of this conversation. But to to wrap up the conversation for now around the assassination itself, which I mean we I I posted just before we did this conversation saying we could have a full in-depth lengthy conversation about your book prior to all of this happening. There's enough there to talk about.

I I do want to just ask this one last question relating to this. You know, obviously Turning Point's good at what they do. They've got a lot of money. We saw this stadium filled out. I mean, that's a pretty penny spent there. Do you think the fact that we could visually see this happen is what gave it more weight? Like I I I mean there was people that mentioned, you know, afterward rightly or wrongly in how it was said that, you know, if we saw the the devastation of gun violence in schools, you know, and someone shared an example of of a school shooting where they had to use DNA testing to identify the children because they were so unrecognizable in the wake of a shooting, you know, versus seeing I mean 4K footage on X seconds after it happened. I mean, do you think just seeing the level of violence in a visceral like unfiltered way is what kind of sparked the nationwide like, okay, this is, you know, this is attention grabbing. This is something we can latch on to. Like, what what role do you think that played in it?

You know, I think that the social media sites have become very good at at at getting those videos down quickly. So, I I came across it sadly in the first few minutes after that's how I found out was seeing it. Yeah. Yeah, and and there's still some places that will show parts of it, but it it but it's been I think after several different school shooters have videotaped themselves doing what it is they do and that social media sites have learned pretty lesson. So, yes, seeing it and and seeing, you know, the the usual aftermath of people running from the scene, we we've seen that before at schools. Uh, and to be honest with you, I I thought that Turning Point and Erica would do more with to be honest with you, Charlie's body. You know, we think about the um Ebony magazine famous cover of the open casket and the till. Did they want to do something like that? And we're talked out of it. It seemed that and perhaps that is gross to think about, but but the the quotes that Erica gave to the New York Times like she wanted to see the body. She wanted to see what they had done to my husband. And perhaps if the if the martyrdom rhetoric hadn't taken off, they would abuse those visuals in a different way. Uh Eric's talked Eric has talked about all the journals and notepads and things he has of her. We're going to see more of that. We're going to see more of Charlie, these AI Charlie's. We're going to see more of that. They're going to keep his face, his name, his voice in the in the culture war ether for for some time to come. Uh, but I do think that maybe the visual didn't, you know, come across cuz they took it down so quickly, but also we've become so numb to those visuals. I mean, we become so numb to school shootings and video releasing of a shooter or something along those lines that I mean, I don't know if seeing this one change to people. Um, but I I will say that there's a reason why we should not watch these. They're they're terrible.

Yeah. it was it was something that stood out to me just because, you know, I I've been concerned about gun violence for a very long time, you know, like yourself. And, you know, but it it is I mean, there's all the quotes about, you know, when you hear a statistic, it becomes a number. You know, when you see one, it you know, it it lands very, you know, a lot differently. And like that night, like I struggled sleeping that night because it just it it was not only that moment, but then it's remembering like, okay, this is happening at wide scale.

Yeah. Yeah, this thing is happening. I mean, I talked to someone just the other day that's two blocks away from where the Annunciation School shooting and knew some of the victims there that were 6, 7 years old. You know, it's it's horrifying to think about. Yeah. And and I'm glad you mentioned with Eric Kirk, you know, I know she mentioned wanting to show people to see what happened, evoking a lot of like Jackie Kennedy, you know, type of things, rhetoric, posting pictures of the hands and the coffin and things. And and I I I I do want to be clear here too. One of the things I've wrestled with is like, you know, I I think on the one hand, I think there's been a lot of like using Kirk and using his death as a prop to gain political power. But I also kind of go like I don't think that accusation comes out of left field cuz I think that's in a way what Kirk himself would have wanted out of this. I mean, that's my read on it. And I think that's clearly what a lot of his organization was about. I mean, do you do you sense that as well? Like, do you feel like what they're doing as an organization is disrespectful to Charlie or do you think it truly honors what his mission was? Cuz I I feel like both sides of that conversation.

I I I think they they know because they're very good at what they do that the baggage that goes along with using someone as a prop. And so they've changed that. They've spun it, if you will, into honoring Charlie by doing things in his name and therefore any Trump official doing anything in Charlie's name. They have not once, you know, criticized any of the things that have been happen. I mean, they they they are selling t-shirts on the Turning Point website. I am Charlie Kirk. We are Charlie Kirk. They they want his name out there because, as you said, he promoted these type of culture war fights, but also the culture war victories. You know, you talk about they use his death as a prop to gain power. They're in power. They're not using it to gain power. They're using it for retribution with the power that they have. Um, and he certainly made comments about different groups of people and the seven mountains mandate frames people who are against them as demonic, as anti-Christian. So, yeah, I don't think that Turning Point and Erica are going to criticize anyone else for doing something in Charlie's name.

Well, let's talk about this because people are hearing the words, you know, seven mandates maybe for the first time. I have to imagine my audience, you know, either is very tuned into this and knows this world and probably I already knew Charlie Kirk before all of this new turning point, had concerns with it. And then there's probably a swath of people who are going, I see the name Charlie Kirk. I'm just watching everything about him trying to get to know who this person is. So, let's go into the beliefs here. Let's let's go into the seven mountains bandate what that is and for somebody's listening like give me the explain it to me like I'm five version of what that that movement is.

I describe it as a very specific strategy of Christian nationalism which is the goal of Christian nationalism is to Christianize America to a particular form of Christianity to not just win the government for Christianity but to win the culture for Christianity. that is Charlie Kirk and Turning Point wanted to win the culture war by creating a Christian culture. And the seven mountains are seven areas of our culture, seven political, social, cultural institutions that they believe if they take them back for Jesus, if they take them over, if they remove the anti-Christian forces that are dominating or in power over those forces institutions, they will create a Christian culture. Now, the reason they're doing this, it has part to do with the end times, and I'll get to that in a minute. But the seven areas, I always leave one off the list, but you can probably guess what they are. Government, media, education, religion, entertainment, business. Business, I always leave one off the list. Um, so just bring up.

Hey, to be fair, I copy pasted your definition to my notes, so it's right off the top of the dome, you know.

Yeah. So if you think about these seven areas, these are not new to Turning Point. They got it from other people. We can go through that history and those people got it from textbooks. The the these institutions are well studied as part of a generic culture. Um, but if you think about how they take these cultural institutions, yes, electing people to office, speaker Mike Johnson is a seven mountains mandate person. So you're putting those people in government power, but the other cultural institutions are not done by election. So it is about silencing, removing, you know, kneecapping other voices, other definitions of the family, other media, entertainment vehicles so that what is left is the Christian one. So just for example, in the mountain of education, it is about installing curriculum that that echoes the 1776 commission which Donald Trump started in his first term and that Charlie Kirk was on. It is about defunding public schools through the voucher movement and taking that money and put it in private schools. But the Christians in evangelical independent funded mentalist Baptist Christians have done that for decades. So what is different about the seven mountains mandate is they want to go back into the public schools and make them into Christian institutions. The ten commandments on the wall a curriculum that promotes a patriotic kind of civic religion and they have done that in several states in different ways. So retaking the mountain of education means to Christianize the public schools and also allow private schools to do what it is they want to do. They want to make public schools into private schools if you think about it that way. I think that these different mountains have always or some of them have always been done by conservative Christian organizations. Some of them have done education for decades. Some of them have done government for decades. And I think turning point was the first to do all seven at the same time. And this is why I suggest in the book that Turning Point and Charlie Kirk has brought the seven mountains mandate as close to success that it's ever been. If you think about the impact of Turning Point, you have to think about these larger seven areas. So if you think of Turning Point as a conservative college student organization, you're missing the bigger picture of what they have done in the last few years.

Right? I I I do want to address this early on because I have I have listeners that are Christian. I have listeners that are non-Christian. I'd say the majority are probably would at least be nominally Christian, you know, and some curious fundamentalists, I'm sure, in the audience as well. I think the question that can come up often is, okay, they want to Christianize the nation. They want to make kids more patriotic. They want to, you know, teach biblical values. Sounds great, you know. I think and I would say even some that are non-Christian. My my parent my dad was actually the administrator of a Christian school growing up and there was a lot of parents who were non-Christian who just wanted their kids to have strong moral values, get a good patriotic view. They like the pledges in the morning, you know, all that sort of thing. And I guess first and foremost, when we talk about Christian nationalism, sometimes it's said in like scare quotes and in a scary way and then people hear the definition and go, "Big whoop, that sounds great." What would you say to those people? And why should people be more concerned about the spread of Christian nationalism?

Um, if you downplay Christian nationalism as merely the idea that Christians should be salt and light in America, and that is not Christian nationalism. That's my version of Christianity. Christian nationalism is about taking American culture and making it Christian by different means. And and and I want to specifically point out that the Seven Mountains mandate is a minority movement on purpose. They do talk about spreading the gospel. They do talk about evangelism. But they're more interested in reclaiming institutions than individual salvation decisions. They don't believe in some manners that they would ever be the majority of people. So when I say it's an anti-democratic or it's going to destroy democracy, this is what I mean. It's a minority group of people who will rule over the majority and perhaps get into power through through democratic means but then enforce a cultural code on these other people who do not want it in an anti-democratic fashion specifically religious pluralism. If you believe that America was founded with a religious pluralism you are not a Christian nationalist. Christian nationalists believe we were founded as a Christian nation that the Constitution and the Bible go together and that the the roots of the Declaration of Independence go back further than that. That is their idea of a Christian nation was as as Charlie wrongly says 55 out of 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence are Bible believing Christians. They want to promote this Christianity that is vague enough to fit everyone's definition of Christianity. But what they really want of course is to put their version in it of it into power. And that has direct impact on religious pluralism. Not just for the other Christians out there, but for the non-Christian religions. So when you say they want a Christian culture, they may, and it's kind of clear at times, they may allow other religions to be there, but the government would be Christian. You think well be anti-first amendment. Charlie Kirk and other people have argued that the founding fathers say uh or argued that the first amendment was there but they but they saw the government as Christian. So they would not draw lines or pick victors in between Protestant sex. There would be a generalized Protestant nation under the first amendment and the other religions probably would not be there. Um, if you think about just those two things, religious pluralism and the way in which a minority movement overrules the majority of people to me and they're doing it in the name of Christianity, that to me is Christian nationalism. And if you think about Christianity as changing individuals and the the things you just laid out, I want my kids to be have morality. I want them to say the pledge of allegiance. I want them to go to a private school where they can do that. I want my individual group of people and perhaps has expanded to a church and to a community and all that. That's one way of thinking of Christianity. The seven mountains mandate way of thinking of Christianity and Christian nationalism is institutional. They see reformation happening, reformation of the government bringing in revival, not revival bringing reformation of the government. They want to take over the institutions and make it a Christian culture. And then maybe after that there might be Christians deciding to be more Christians, but they don't necessarily think the majority of the people in America are going to be Christians and that defines a Christian nation. They define it as Christian nationalism and taking over these institutions. I think that's why it's dangerous to everyone, but it's also dangerous to spreading the gospel. If you think about their pictures of the gospel and maybe you agree with their tenants, therefore spiritual laws kind of thing, but when they go and say that and then take over the institutions of government, many people have problems with the second part.

Yeah, that that's really interesting. and and one of the one of the questions one of my close friends from school growing up, you know, we we go back and forth about some of these topics occasionally and and one of the things that he mentioned in light of this conversation was, you know, exactly what I just asked, which is why are Christian morals and how the Bible describes good and evil such a threat to democracy? You know, if morals don't come from God, couldn't each individual's morals be subjective? And I think what you're kind of alluding to, and correct me if I'm wrong, is this idea that, you know, when you have a general, you know, Christian theology over the nation, you're still still dealing with a subjective understanding of what that means. And whoever's in power gets to determine where that line is in terms of like how much other people have freedom to share their perspective.

With all those moral things in the Bible, that's great. But you live in a country where it is a democratic process. You have to compromise and seven mountains people do not compromise. And then two you live in a country where there is perhaps governmentbacked religious pluralism but also a lot of people who are not Christian who don't necessarily share your morality. And this is fascinating because of Charlie Kirk. Uh Turning Point USA is a Christian nationalism organization but it was not always that. before the pandemic 2020 2019ish Charlie Kirk and Turning Point were a kind of pro- capitalism free market anti- higher education group and he said specifically in 2018 I don't mix my religion politics I make secular arguments because America is a secular nation.

So ask yourself you know why he made the switch but also if that first thing is true we live in a country where we have to make arguments to voters and to other people that are not religious-based how do you get your Christian morals into practice if you have cannot force everyone else to go along with them. And I think to me that's the idea of Christian dominionism. Taking back, taking dominion, forcing other people by either democratic means or anti-democratic means to go along with them. It isn't so much whether or not those morals are true. I think Christians would agree that they are. But how do you live in a country? And this is why the last thing I want to say is this is why Charlie Kirk and other people suggest we don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic. And now there really no difference between the two. But

The republic to them has a moral base, a moral ground. We live in a country that is Christian. And if you can allow that to be taken away by the majority of voters, you don't live in a Christian country.

In a democracy, the majority always wins with almost no breaks and no slowdowns of a check and balance system to protect freedoms and liberties. In a constitutional republic, the government starts with certain truth claims that are transcendent and irrefutable. Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, the government is here to promote the general welfare, things of this nature. A democracy does not usually add the same kind of separation of powers. A a true actual democracy.

"Yeah. We're not we're not a pure democracy."

"Right? But the word itself is not in any of our founding documents and it was actually talked about negatively."

"But the idea that we're not a democracy is is ridiculous. We still vote."

"But that's not but that's not the like I said that's representative government. It's a constitutional republic. You're thinking way too simple about this. You got to go deeper. And I'm not trying to pick on you. I'm just saying you got to broaden your horizon. Not every not every place that has elections is a democracy."

It leads me to a question which you know I'm sure you probably argued with yourself writing you know where you land on this but it is interesting in your book you share things like okay Charlie Kirk refused to let people call someone a slur for you know being same-sex attracted early on in his career later on you know almost leaned into that in a in a really strong way. um you know his comments about like we're being we're in a secular environment, we're in a democracy to leaning to we're a republic and you know we need to shift the culture in this direction. You know do you do you think that this is a situation where he became more deeply rooted in strongly held convictions or do you think this was he saw the direction culture was going and it was as many people have said a grift?

"Um, I I I won't I won't say where I land on this yet cuz I want to hear your answer."

"No, no. The question of Griff is is obvious. I'm not sure the answer is obvious, but the question is yes, he he has made lots of money or or made lots of money through this and his allies have made lots of money through specifically taking Turning Point from a very limited audience to an expansive audience. So, when Rob McCoy, his pastor, and they met late 2019, convinced him to go in this direction. I I think it was easy to convince Charlie Kirk that this was this is a version of Christianity you can go along with because he's always identified himself as an evangelical. He was involved in churches you know in as a young adult so that Roberty didn't have much to to say this is this version of Christianity. I think what he convinced him, what Robert Koy convinced Charlie Kirk of, which took, you know, some time was that that you could make non-seular sacred arguments for the government and for the culture. And here's some Bible verses to back that up. Now, there are many Bible verses they twist and and move like that, but I think he he convinced him that it wasn't a far leap from a evangelical making secular arguments to the Christian nationalism argument. But I will say also it was a tremendous business opportunity for Turning Point. You got to expand your audience in many different ways and expand your donor base and therefore take in more money. Um and you know around the time that they met 2019, you know, the beginning of 2020, we had the pandemic, college campuses were closed for basically an entire year. Charlie Cook could not do his campus events. So what did he do? He went to churches and started saying things that Rob McCoy is saying or or other people have said in the seven mountains mandate. So I think that Charlie saw it as yes I believe these things and then he got he got the education that he wanted to help him do that through Larry Arn and Hillsdale and Larry mentioned that he's taken all these courses online. So he got the education that he wanted that he needed to do this and then yes it was a tremendous business opportunity. Now whether it's a grift is how you define grifting. I see grifting as a con artist, as someone who does not believe in these things that they're doing to gain money. I do think Charlie believes in these. I think he changed his mind, but I think he believes in the Christian nationalism agenda. So, I wouldn't call it a gri, but it has made lots of money for him."

"I I agree 100%. I I when I see people say it's a purely a grift, I kind of roll my eyes because and maybe this is because I, you know, grew up in fundamentalist Christianity and I know how strongly held these beliefs are, you know, even if not explicitly labeled as the seven mountains mandate. Like I mean this idea of taking back the culture, fighting back against liberalism like that all rings true. I think the large amounts of money, you know, you mentioned since 2016, they've raised roughly a4 billion dollars. I mean, that could probably be annotated in a next edition of this book just over the last couple of of months, you know, but you mentioned each year with these different things with the Trump presidency, the Biden presidency, COVID, millions and millions and millions of dollars. 2021, $55 million in revenue, you know, 2023, $80 million in revenue. You're just seeing the numbers climb exponentially. Yeah."

"Yeah. This this is the part where if not a grift, you know, if not a grift on his part, I think the amount of people that are donating to these causes, the amount of people, you mentioned Donald Trump Jr. pairing up with him, Trump himself, you know, having such a close connection. Um, I mean, Rush Limba saying that, you know, Kirk was running the country wasn't doesn't seem too far off. That doesn't seem too too too large."

"Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks. He just doesn't have the ego to tell you that."

"Would you say as you've charted this that you're seeing,"

"Let's go back to the beginning. Let's go to Trump's first presidency. The politicians surrounding Kirk. Do you think they were true believers in Kirk's cause or do you think that they found themselves an amazing exciting opportunity to amass power? And I ask that I asked former Congressman Adam Kininger about this and I said, "Do you think Trump, you know, targeted evangelicals in the beginning or stumbled upon them and then doubled down?" And it's it seemed kind of like it seemed kind of like the latter. But I'm curious for you like just the Republican orbit, you know, how much of it is"

"I do think if you think about why President Trump ran for the first time, various issues that prompted him, but one of the things he wanted to do was raise the percentage of white evangelicals that voted for him, it was it was in the 80s, he wanted to raise it a couple of points. And if you did that and you got a couple of points somewhere else, you could win. So to do that, yes, you have to go to Liberty University and make that speech that he did. Two Corinthians, right? 2 Corinthians 3:17. That's the whole ball game. Where the spirit of the Lord, right? Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty. And here there is Liberty College, but Liberty University, but it is so true. You have to get Paula White Kane and and her network of people on board."

"She up there in the White House praying. You better believe I'm praying. You also then have to tap into this vast network of churches and and apostles and prophets in the N the new apostlate reformation because they are not just the the spiritual power. They are the people that are like the unions on the other side. They have email lists and they have databases of people and they can influence a large amount of people in the right states that you need them. So yes, I think that he saw that and said I need to go in that direction. He doesn't believe in any of it, but he wanted to do that. So Charlie, even in 2016, was part of that. Not so much the the Christian part, but he had a a small growing college student organization. And he spent the summer of 16, you know, hanging out with Donald Trump Jr. on the campaign trail and had lots of time to convince him that you could do a lot of good if you pay attention to the conservative students on campus. Um, and that changed, you know, into all demographics later on. But I think that specifically with college students, you know, it was never about getting a certain percentage of them to vote. College students are, you know, they do vote democratically overwhelming, but they're do it in very small numbers and sometimes they're very flaky in terms of what you think they're going to turn out. So, you weren't going to change the the precincts on campus. But what but what Charlie convinced him was, I go to college campuses so you don't have to. I go to college campuses and make these videos and mock the liberals and the professors and the people down the road are donating to your campaign because they want to stop what I'm showing them on college campuses. That's always been Charlie's cell I think to Donald Trump Jr. and other people and he was able to expand that after the pandemic. I so going now into this sec what we're in now, you know, this this second term, it it seems to me as though you I picture Indiana Jones where he's got the idol and he swaps it out for the bag of sand. And I feel like that's kind of happened with"

"The big rock, right?"

"And then he runs for the big rock, which is a apt metaphor. We could keep this going, but I I do see that like now we're seeing the insertion of people who are I think true believers. Mike Johnson, Pete Hegsth, you know, Pete Hgsth could again be another episode we could talk about. We just going through tattoos. But I,"

"You know, it it seems like there's been this like swapping of like people who are in the grift on the political side to people who are the true believers who are like, "Finally, this is our moment.""

"Um,"

"Does this I mean, does that concern you far more? Does it does it does it make you feel better that at least you can engage with like the actual idea instead of the facade? Like what do you think of the second term and does it make you feel more horrified, less horrified? Same but for different reasons. Like how's it landed for you?"

"We we are in a terrible spot right now in our country. We're lost as a nation in terms of being able to work together and compromise and do the things that the Constitution, you know, says we should do. But we also face a president who is not just autocratic authoritarian but is using the federal government levers of power to seek retribution on all of his enemies and also the enemies that he creates after the assassination of of Charlie Kirk. We see no one there is no one in the room now if you want to say that that's stopping him. all the people you just mentioned were not available in the first term because they were on the friends or they were crazy or they or there were there were adults in the room that could that wanted to be a part of the first term. There's not that now and we still have 3 years left. I think that especially in regard to Turning Point and and what they offer now to the president is just this immense amount of emotional energy, the martyrdom rhetoric that gives him more and more free reign. There's no one that wants to try to put a fence between martyrdom rhetoric and what the president wants to do. There's no one that's going to say you you shouldn't do that. Whatever he wants to do, unless the courts or some other people try to stop him, he's going to do. We've seen that time and again here. So I think that we face really difficult times here. We face certainly if I calling the seven mountains mandate a threat to our democracy and the person in the White House in the Oval Office is an advocate for it then yes I do think we're our democracy is under threat. But I also think that because they own the levers of power they're now using that to win the other mountains and they're using different ways to do it. But but I I don't know where or I don't see a stopping to that and obstacles to that. I don't see that."

"I think it's easy to point at the the quote unquote Bible thumpers, you know, and go like, okay, well, they are unreasonable and they're not willing to have a conversation. And I've certainly said that on on the show that there are demographics that will not hear any criticism and will not have a conversation. But I do think, you know, those who politically lean left or I would say even those who are just pro-democracy, I mean, are are are shutting down a lot of conversation, I think, are are rejecting conversation with the people who are questioning what's wrong with this. I don't see the danger signs here. And"

"I mean, h how do you think we move forward in that? I mean, I like I just mentioned, I read a question from one of my close friends. We do not see eye to eye on this issue. one of my one of my best friends, we do not see eye to eye on 90% of things. And a lot of times I think I'm seeing clear red flag. They're seeing something good. Where do you meet in the middle of that discussion? And I'm not, again, I'm not talking about the extremes that go like,"

"Yeah,"

"Deep down the cute conspiracy rabbit hole and Trump is, you know, XYZ and basically a god to them. for the for the legitimately moderate people who just go like, I'm terrified of a non-Christian nation, what that looks like,"

"How do you think people should be engaging in those discussions to go like, yeah, but this this isn't what it is."

"Yeah. If if you think of the Seven Mountains mandate and Christian nationalism as a minority movement on purpose, to me, the only answer to that is a majority movement. Now that doesn't mean that that majority movement is is one one message, one movement or one party, but it has to be the majority of people saying we don't want this particular thing. And what we do want is the ability for people to come together and and and compromise and make decisions based upon things that we're not calling the other side evil. There has to be a majority movement in the country, a democratic movement that says this what they're doing over here is not democratic. I don't think that you're going to convince that minority people to stop what it is they're doing. There certainly could be some people that peel off and and the big question of course is what happens to MAGA after Trump leaves the scene whenever whenever that is. A turning point I is is built to last. It it it's setting itself up to be the indispensable organization to to replace MAGA or to be the organization that fills that vacuum when when Trump leaves the scene. Um, so I do think that they are dangerous because not just of the amount of money they have and now the martyrdom rhetoric that is energizing them, but I think that they understand how to create divides in narratives and framing and things like that and then take that divide and just turn it up to 10 or 11. Turning Point is not the first people to have professor watch list or professors on list. They're not the first people to say some of the things they've been saying, but that what they able to do is just make it more and more clear to people on their side, you should not compromise with evil, that evil should not be and of course there's many different groups of people that are evil to them. So you're not going to change those those minds. So the only answer is you have to find a group of people that can we'll say outvote them, but also come together with their own differences to say look we are coming together with our differences. This is how America should be. And I I think that for the Christian nationalism, they're of course sacrificing the democracy for the culture or for the culture war, for the winning the culture war. And they're not going to stop, as you point out, they have deep, deeply held beliefs, deeply identity based beliefs, and of course, they have the word of God behind them. Um, so they're not going to change their ways. So we have to find other, more different people to say, we need to come together. I don't know how you do that, but that's the only way to do it."

"Well,"

"You mentioned your book. I mean, Kirk specifically, you know, push back against violence, you know, in terms and again, there's some, it's interesting juaposing the fact that he publicly con condemned that, but was very soft on people at the insurrection, which was very visceral, I mean, assault on the democratic process. And and to Mike Pence's credit, who is a firm Christian, you know, he was willing to uphold the, you know, democratic process, you know, and didn't didn't use his faith faith as an excuse to escue that and move in a certain direction. But all to say, Kirk himself denounced violence toward government. There was sometimes there was vague whispers of at some point that might be necessary. But you also mentioned in the book that 2024 survey showed a majority of Christian nationalists would support a leader who's willing to break some rules. I think those are the people cheering on today when Trump said that, you know, we got rid of free speech in relation to flag burning and things like that. Uh about a third of those same people support violence in order to save our country or to ensure the rightful leader takes office, which is concerning. I mean, if we're going to look at something that's most concerning, it's probably rhetoric like that. I mean, what's your fear going into the next couple years? Obviously, we have three more years of this current administration, but you have a base that's extremely riled up right now. Uh, you have people that believe that we're in a battle of good versus evil. You know, you hear a lot of callbacks to liberation and, you know, fighting civil wars and all that sort of talk. Do you think we're going to see a major uptick in political violence, especially when it comes to grabbing for more power in the next couple years? I mean, we've seen a trend already of political violence, of individuals taking matters into their own hands, not just the Charlie Kirk assassination. And whether or not that political violence terms turns from individuals to organized violence, I think, will be a key question. Because Trump is in power, because he can use the levers of government to quell violence, you might not see organized violence against the government. Um, but you certainly could see that if they Trump tries to go for a third term. I don't think necessary he's going to, you know, do that yet, but I think that we will continue to see political violence in our country because we see political opponents as someone who does not need to be there, needs to be taken out, needs to not have their voices heard. Not not because they're just evil, but they seem to be anti-Christian forces. There's obviously political violence on both sides, but I guess what I'm getting at is for the next 3 years, you have the government in power enforcing their own political violence, and they're they're going to see how far they can take that. I don't know where it's going to go. Obviously, we've seen National Guard in several cities. We've seen different ways in which the president has upended the the federal government. How far are they willing to take that? And and will the majority of people say we don't want that? I I was reading this morning the book Man Up, the new misogyny and the rise of violent extremism by Cynthia Miller Idrris, which is a phenomenal book. And one of the sections that she devotes a good chunk of the book to is discussing meme culture in relation to misogyny, but she she mentions misogyny as at the heart of a lot of mass shootings. Talks a lot about the planned kidnapping attempt of a politician and you know obviously was again framed with a lot of misogynistic rhetoric you know like we're just going to grab the we're going to take her and and this blend of this political ideology blended with you know this this level of misogyny you know I think of this in relation to what you just said about Trump running for a third term you know we just saw the picture of Chuck Schumer in his office with the Trump 2028 hats on his desk. I think for the majority of people that I see who support Trump, they go, you know, he's just trolling. This is him just getting under their skin. He's a businessman. This is just negotiation stuff."

"Um, yeah. What role do you think that memes specifically in pop culture, online content, I mean, gamer chat rooms, you know, what what role do you think those play in this current movement? Because I I I almost when I see it in a book, it's like it it seems so silly to go like let's talk about Pepe the Frog for a few minutes, you know, but it there is a real push here where the propaganda is coming from Gen Z."

"No. Yeah."

"Followers of of groups like this. I mean, what do you what do you see that role being? I mean, I write about it in obviously in the mountain of entertainment and Benny Johnson uh and his work with memes. And what that does because memes act as a very concise way in which to say something, it allows ideas to seep in without you noticing it uh in memes. And Benny Johnson has been spreading this kind of masculinity hyper stuff throughout the different memes that he's he's done. But now he's done he's doing it in person with you know I have this family and we should have more kids and we should uh get married young and all those things. But the memes are the kind of thing you don't see coming or or because it is so tied to jokes or it's so tied to you know things that only the people that make the memes know. And I think this is what we have seen so far from the suspect in Charlie Kirk's assassination. Like the the writings on the bullets don't matter. were were inside jokes. But I and I think that that is what memes have done to our country. Not just memes, but a lot of different things is they have created these different cultures where only the people in the cultures get what they're talking about. We can talk about bubbles if you want, but the inside jokes and the memes create this linkage where you don't have a conversation with other people. We can say that in media as well, obviously, but we are we have this divide in culture. And I think that what Benny Johnson and Turning Point are trying to do, we want to get those people to, you know, be politicized, be agitated, and we have to do that through the way in which they're talking. Well, you're you're furthering the divide by using that same method, even though you're trying to get them to be, you know, vote or knock on doors or whatever. Um, but I think that the the memes specifically because they're so easy to create, so they're viral, so, you know, they can go around traditional media and go around the bigger voices that we have, they're so easy to filter bad information or bad ideas and that's why people use it."

"It seems like comedy and memes and you know have become such like a central piece of this. Um, you know I I I mean really this last election was a comedian's election. I mean it was Trump made his way through the flag podcast with Andrew Schultz. I mean Joe Rogan's podcast obviously. I mean talk about a kingmaker. I mean anybody who would have done Rogan, I think, would have done well. You know, I"

"I do Do you think there's also that def that that built-in deflection where you can say it's just a joke until it's not? I mean, do you think that's been a piece of this as well? And then also, I think too, I mean, I I'm I'm thinking about in this course of this conversation like Kirk loved his portrayal on South Park."

"It is hilarious. I mean, part of it is kind of like whatever typical humor, but it was hilarious. Just watch this little snippet of our prove me wrongs. Our viral cultural domination on prime time on Comedy Central. So important, so impactful that South Park is highlighting. Watch it."

"I'm sick of people stealing my stick. If anyone around here is going to be a master debater, it's me. So, let's go. Who wants to debate the master debater? Let's go. You right there."

"That's the stupidest haircut I've ever seen. You are wrong. Liberty kids 317 says it shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings. So you can shut up, baby. You just hate America and you love abortions."

"Do you think it was just no any name recognition is good and we can rest on that and any way this topic can get out there is good and we can harness it like"

"I mean we used to think that you know any press is is is good press but I think what has happened is that they can spin anything. They can reframe it as as anything good. They were making fun of Charlie Kirk on South Park and he embraces it because he has, you know, makes fun of himself or something like that. But to embrace it means to change the impact of it to defang it. It didn't work on me. I'm not offended about it. Then you're you're just a stupid stupid show. I think that's exactly what the media or the mountain of entertainment and media does through the Christian nationalism movement. We are creating not just a parallel Christian media structure where we can win in the marketplace with our better TV shows. We are taking the fight to these organiz organizations to strip them of their cultural power so that we can have our own. I mean, we saw this in in the White House with the briefing room and replacing traditional media with a turning point correspondent and getting them to ask questions. You are letting them do the job of journalists by mocking journalists. Your turning point has a daily showesque show where they mock the Daily Show, right? So they're doing this in a way in which to expand their audience, but also to show that they can win the culture, and you win the culture through media and entertainment."

"It certainly I I mean, the appeal makes sense when you look at something. I I was watching just yesterday or today, you know, Representative Katie Porter, who's running for governor in California, being lightly pressed on a question and melting down in the conversation. What do you say to the 40% of voters who voted for Trump?"

"Oh, I'm happy to say that. It's the do you need them to win part that I don't understand. I'm happy to answer the answer the question as you have it written and I'll answer it."

"And we've also asked the other candidates, do you think you need any of those 40% of California voters to win?"

"And you're saying no, you don't."

"No, I'm saying I'm going to try to win every vote I can. And what I'm saying to you is that"

"Well, to those voters. Okay. So, so you"

"I don't want to keep doing this. I'm going to call it."

"Thank you. You're not going to do the interview with us?"

"Nope. Not like this. I'm not. Not with seven follow-ups to every single question you ask."

"Kept pushing. I want this to be a pleasant exchange. You know, I want this to be just a calm discussion. And people were just lambasting her for that, you know, that that approach. And I think that is some of the appeal of someone like Charlie Kirk is that"

"They don't have those moments, you know, like there's always an answer. Uh, I just told someone the other day like apologetics 101, always be ready to give an answer. That was really his approach to politics, which is like you can throw anything at me and I can spin it, throw it back at you."

"That's the appeal of"

"Right. That's the appeal of Trump and Kirk, etc. Um, I guess on that on that level, and this kind of ties back to like I people like Kirk, not so much their followers, but people like Kirk himself, do you think there's benefit to getting getting into their territory and having debates? getting into their territory and having, you know, whether it's a moderated debate within a university, whether that's a joining them on a podcast and hashing out these ideas, like is that worthwhile? Is it more worth presenting a separate case to their following or to the people who are out there? Cuz like I don't believe Matt Walsh when he says change my mind or Steven Crowder says change my mind. Charlie Kirk didn't want to have a you know an honest debate like"

"What what benefit is there to engaging in the public sphere in the"

"I think they they wanted to use the idea of debate to further their cause if you think about you know what I think and the week before he died right he has Charlie had this back and forth with Van Jones Van Jones apologized and after the assassination he's like Van Jones said Charlie you know texted me and wanted to be on wanted me to be on his show um and they they do that they pick a or they get fought by and then go back and forth online and then say, "Hey, why don't you be on my show and we can do this for the audience because it's for the audience." I I would never recommend someone going up to a mic at a turning point event and asking a question. Even if you're prepared, even if you are the smartest person in the room, they will use that in negative ways uh going forward. Uh so it is not about debate. You know, prove me wrong. They're never proven wrong on purpose. And even if they go to these formal debate societies, Charlie went to Oxford and Cambridge Union and he brought out all the the good parts of his videos and played it up and and played down the negative ones and he had this, as you mentioned, the Jubilee thing. I mean, he brought out all the positives out of that and not the negative ones. So, it it's a framing war. It's a rhetorical war. You're not going to win or gain any followers by doing it on their turf, on their terms. Now, that then would say, "Oh, you're against free speech. You're against debate." No, I'm against people using me for that. So, this is why I've gotten in weeks after his death parents invitations to be on several podcasts and they send me these and like, "Hey, do do you want to be on these?" And I go look at them and look at the guests have been on them and listen to a couple episodes and I like they would just use me as a pinñata and I'm going to say no."

"So, I would not recommend"

"Doing that sort of thing. You'd be the Haraldo Rivera for Fox News. You know, you get to be the punching bag for a few minutes."

"Yeah. I I know we're getting near the end here and I think one of the one of the things that's clear in your book and just in this conversation general is what a figure Kirk was. I mean, for for all the things that could be said about his beliefs and we can fight those in the marketplace of ideas, you know, he was a figure that garnered a lot of attention. He knew how to tap into younger audiences. he was someone who knew how to lead a movement. You could say the same for Trump uh in his respective, you know, role for those figures, you know, that are such cult of personalities within their groups. You know, far more people still, I think, know Charlie Kirk than Turning Point, you know, like he was the figure. What do you think the legs for a movement like Turning Point is in in terms of like maintaining the momentum it currently has, which is incredibly huge? Um and and specifically, not to add too many uh layers to this question, but I mean specifically with a female CEO of a movement that has been built on hating female CEOs over the age of 30, you know, like what are the legs of that? Do you think it's going to lose a massive amount of momentum? Do you think it carries it for several years? Where do you think we go from there?"

"I do think turning point itself is built to last because they have these seven areas in which they can funnel money and their new attendees or new members into it. So they have many ways in which they can funnel their training and their organization into keeping people involved. And this has always been one of their questions throughout the years. I wrote a a thing on their 10 year anniversary in 2022 and I noticed even at that point they were trying to create these alumni groups, these turning point alumni groups, people that were involved in college. What do we do with them or how do we get at them after they leave our campuses uh and they created all these other arms in the seven mountains mandate to do that and they have a vast network now of people uh whether or not they were ever involved in Turning Point College. They're now Turning Point people. turning point has become the Republican party in many ways in what political parties do. They have strong allies both in the current administration and perhaps any other candidate that runs for office. Uh so they're built to last. Now I I do think you know Erica I don't know how long she lasts a CEO. Not because she's not talented or or or something like that but she's a widow with two small children. She has lots of help obviously, but I I think that she certainly will be the face of the the martyrdom rhetoric and the memorials that are happening each time they have a campus event. It's basically a new memorial and she will be the closer when it comes to donors. You you want to write a check, we'll bring in Erica to talk about Charlie for a minute, but after, you know, after the next year, what what are they going to do? Obviously, they're gonna, you know, help out during the midterm elections, but are these campus events, their bread and butter, are they going to continue? There's no one who can do what Charlie does. And even if they learn how to do it, even if there's someone younger than him that could do it, they're not going to do it in the same manner or they're always going to be accused of being like him or trying to, you know, be"

"Like, what's his name? That new kid."

"I can't remember his name."

"Brillin Brillin or something or"

"What's up, America? Ryland Holly interior about 30,000 ft up. We are on the way to Arkansas. So everybody in line at the University of Arkansas to kick off my 10 stop campus tour."

"He's not a protege at all. He's he's a person who's trying to do what he's doing. Um so the question is what what is it that they're going to do? I think they're obviously going to ramp up Turning Point Action, which is their political directly political organization, and get more candidates to into office, and get that list of people that they're into. And then I think they certainly could push their Turning Point education agenda much more quicker now. Some of the groups that they had helped out with or were partnering with are slowing down. Dennis Prager was one of them. He's obviously still alive, but, you know, not doing well. So they're going to replace those groups and and and fill that vacuum even more. So there's many areas in which they could they could go into. I don't know if they're going to do campus events. Um but they have a lot of attention and a lot of money right now. The last thing I want to say though I I have seen some people note and and these are based upon studies of organizations that have lost their face or lost their leader that over time yes these organizations fade because you cannot replace that person. Some of them survive and thrive. If you think about the Billy Graham, you know, Evangelical Association, Billy Graham lived to be, you know, 90 something years old and his son took it over and he took it over well before he died. It's not the same organization. It certainly does a lot of good work with Samaritan's Purse and all that, but it it fades over time. I don't know their budget, but it does because people lose that iconic figure. And Charlie was just 30 31 years old, so he didn't have time to build a much more bigger portfolio of iconicness. If you think about organizations that make themselves into a brand, and Turning Point has done that, they do that by using their their their founder in a way, but move beyond him. And I think that they're they're good at that. They're good at narratives and framing, and I think they'll be successful. So, I think they'll they'll build to last, but I do think that it won't be it won't be Erica who is the new face of it. I think she certainly will stay around for a while, but I I I do think at some point they're going to have to find not just one person as you mentioned that that other person, but a group of people that can do what Charlie does, but perhaps a group of people."

"Yeah, I was mentioning that to someone the other day. I was like that's what's interesting to me about Trump is like I really can't picture MAGA without him. I mean, Ronda Santis tried his best and really just flailed to try to get any interest outside of Florida. You know, JD Vance certainly does not have any charisma, you know, whatsoever. and has really alienated a lot of people over the last couple years. Um, you know, I mean, it's hard to know where that goes. I I I want to ask just two more questions here as we get near the end. First and foremost, I just totally selfishly, what's your read on the Candace Owen situation right now? Do you think the text she shared of Charlie rethinking Israel is legit? Do you think that there's some truth to that? Uh, and also I mean with how deeply he was informed by evangelical beliefs, I mean turning on Israel would be a massive big deal, but conservatives are largely drifting from it. I mean like what's your view on any of that? I mean"

"Janice has has been off the deep end for many years now."

"She's she's an unreliable narrator, so it makes it a little tricky. Yeah."

"So yes, the the the text that she showed are real. Andrew Colbert admitted to that. But whether or not that's the full context or the full conversation or you know that certainly is up for debate. She is not a good source even if the texts are real. But that letter that Charlie Kirk wrote to Netanyahu was real and he talked about I am pro- Israel and he's been pro-Israel for years. He was never backing off of that. But he also knew that there are many people in his audience that were as you say questioning, moving away from and he could not fight that battle alone. We talk about using Tucker at his at his events and answering those questions. That's why he wanted Netanyahu to do things differently. Um, but I I do think that there's a reason Candace has not been invited to a turning point event in years. And as you can see, she is burning every bridge, boat, whatever she has now, because she's a conspiracy theorist. She's coming up with conspiracy. And sometimes there's texts that are true that go along with that and sometimes there are not. Um, and Turning Points had to answer for them, but I I again, I don't think anyone cares outside of the four or five people that or I'm sorry, the four or five million people that Candace has in her audience."

"I was going to say that's a that's a big downplay of her audience size, unfortunately."

"Yes, I do want to say she has a large audience."

"Um, and yeah, massive audience of people who are concerned with this. And you know, I I think that's the other piece of this too is, you know, there's a massive amount of people in that space who are rushing. I mean, Benny Johnson is grasping for as much audience captures he can. You know, Candace Owens is obviously doing the same. Ben Shapiro is obviously doing the same. You know, trying to harness some of the the audience that's very interested in these topics right now. So, it'll be curious to see where that goes, whether Turning Point hires a lot more personalities over the next year or so. I mean, there's a lot a lot that could happen. The the last piece here I just want to ask I saw a question come in on social. I just checked my post just to see if anybody had dropped one and someone had asked does the book end to the donors behind TPUSA and how Republican policy benefits them? I'll let you take that question, but you know how how much do you think it's important to not just look at the organization but the people funding it and how it benefits benefits them specifically?"

"It's hard to track those because the Turning Point tax records do not list those. There's some indication that they're big donors and the big donors you can think of have go have donated to them and they donated to other causes as well to people make those"

"Such such as like you put in that"

"I mean the Koch brothers obviously fund through different intermediaries they eventually got to turning point but also like you know some of the big GOP donors that you donate to campaigns also donate to turning point I mean they have some of the donors have been there for years but it's hard to track them because of the ways in which tax records work. We we know very little about the amount of money or where that money comes from especially from organizations that have you know kind of generic names the you know America Prosperity whatever. Uh so it's very hard to track that. But I will say what we do know of Turning Point's Finances is they are there are not just big donor people. These are not just people in the shadows directing Charlie's agenda. There is a grassroots people donating5 or $10 to go to these events and buying hats. It it it is beyond just the big donors. Um, well, I know we're we're at the very end here and obviously you haven't changed a single sentence of your book since this happened. If you were to add a preface to this, you know, for a new edition or if there's something that now in hindsight,"

"You know, you wish you would have included or or would include now in light of everything. I mean, is there is there a single angle thought, you know, emphasis you would add to people who are maybe reading the book, you know, in light of everything that's happened in the past couple of weeks?"

"Uh, man, that's a tough one. I I think I might have added there's different people that has been the face of the Seven Mountains movement throughout its history, and some of them have lived long lives, but some of them have not, not just because they were they were killed, because they just died early. And I would have talked about what they did to those names of people knowing what happened to Charlie."

"It'll be really interesting. Well, I I I I'm sure you'll be putting out more over the next couple months and and years as you continue researching this. Like you you mentioned at the very end of your book, this will not be the last book written about Turning Point, just not just from you, just in general. There's plenty to analyze here and certainly won't be the last book written, I'm sure, on Charlie Kirk. I'm sure there's a flood of those that are being prepared as we speak. But I I really appreciate this book. I highly recommend it to people who are listening and for all of your research over the years. You know, it's unfortunate that the attention on it is brought from an event like this. Um, but I'm I'm hopeful that it does raise some awareness about these topics that have been going on for a very long time. Dr. Matthew Bodie, thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate it."

"No problem. Talk to you later."

"You've been listening to the Preacher Boys podcast hosted by Eric Squzinski. The intro music, Bible Belt, was performed by Lou Ridley. I said, "Come one, come all." We are gathered here today to praise the Holy Father, feel the glory of his name. Anyone can worship here so long as you act straight, pay your tithes, and follow rules. Even the ones God didn't make in the Bible belt."