Transcription
So then I'm as honest as I can be, and then you're hurt. But it is hurtful. I know, but like, I don't, like, I don't know. So, like, if anything-- But that is the truth. Yeah, like literally I don't know. It is hurtful and listen. So that's what's going on.
You want to be honest, which is brave. Yeah, but it always fucks me over. It doesn't fuck you over. It means you have to bear the consequences. I know. It's like you want to be honest, but you can't stand what's coming back at you.
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ANNIE: I sought therapy for us because I believed that I wanted a renegotiation. And without help, he wasn't going to take my opinion with as much respect or weight as his own. I bring things to you that mean a lot to me, and you are very--
- Dismissive?
- Yeah.
Do you recognize any of this kind of-- I understand why she feels this way. No, but do you recognize that in yourself? I recognize why she sees that. So I know what she's talking about. But it'd be like me telling you what one side of this is and then thinking it's the whole side. I got it, yeah. If you look at it that way, that's what you're going to see. If you look at a different way, you'll see something else.
Right, OK, wait, wait, stop. So this is exactly-- this is exactly what I was talking about. I'll say don't say that. That's mean. And then the other side-- so here's the one side is that's mean. Those are ugly words you're throwing at me or, like, making me feel small. But the other side is, that you can't wait to show me, is what a great and supportive husband you are and how supportive and da da da, which just makes my side irrelevant, which is your whole point of doing it. Babe, that was a terrible example. You were being mean to me. I already said I understand why you feel that way. But you don't. Yeah, I know, I do. I still do. But OK-- I did when I said it, and I still do it. OK, then so what part of that is on you? But what is? Just say what part is on you? Well, there isn't a part-- look. It can happen in certain situations. But the constant in those other situations is the way that you're approaching it. OK, well, that's a dynamic. That's a couple dynamic. I mean, you're saying to Annie, look, there's a part that is yours, which is the way you approach me. What part's yours?
THERAPIST: But say, and here's where I can meet you. Here's my part. Look, I'm struggling to find what that is, because you're right. Come on. You can. No, no, I'm being sincere when-- you already have it. It's not missing from your--
THERAPIST: Just say it again. Even if you're doing that effort, you can just say, here's what I'm trying to do. Here's what I'm already successful at doing. That's not the same thing. I think you'll get way more traction if you say, rather than say, I've been doing it all this time, is if you say, I can try harder to not be dismissive. What triggers me is when you talk to me in this way or that way, but I still want to keep making the effort to be respectful. Yeah. That's insulting.
THERAPIST: To whom? To me. It's a ridiculous thing to say. Bear that insult. It would be good for your marriage. I won't do it, and I don't want it. If you could-- if you were to give me everything I ever wanted by doing that, I'd say no. I'd rather have nothing than have that.
PING: We met within the context of an open relationship, at a time in our lives where I was exploring things and he was exploring different things. And we kind of met. Generally what kind of things? A more open sex life. More sexually, sexually. We were both exploring sexually. So he and I are separately serial monogamists, right, from one relationship to another to another. And I think for both of us, we realized sex doesn't have to mean one person for the rest of your life. It can happen within the confines of an emotionally committed relationship. And I think that's what attracted both of us to each other and created that bond. Did you bring other people into your shared sex life?
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
And how did that work for the two of you? Yeah, I think at the time, I always looked at it as we were kind of our exploration buddies, you know, and that's kind of where the relationship flourished from there. And did that stop at some point? So boundaries became a huge issue. And we did-- So who wanted what kind of boundaries? I think when we first got together, the boundaries were that we only dated other people together as a couple. And then just scheduling issues became difficult, whatever. And so she started dating someone on her own. So then we decided to try that for a while. But then his boundaries were, OK, you can't go on long walks with them. You can't cuddle. You can't do this. Well, that's going way back. Hold on, hold on. Meaning you can't do things that are-- I can't do monogamous relationship things with other people. You can do pure sexual?
PING: Just pure sex. Show up for the sex. Put your clothes on and come home.
THERAPIST: Got it. And for me, that's not sexy to me. I don't operate like that. So he had a problem with how I was going to be intimate with someone else. But then when we were looking for other people to date, he was having a hard time, because most guys will respond to me. But for guys, it's much more difficult. So sometimes I would help him write the notes to the prospects, and it worked. But I think when he started seeing other people, there was that switch that flipped, and all of a sudden, oh, I can do this with them. Oh, I can do that with them. Oh, that's OK, this is OK. So it's a free for all now. So he would disappear for three to four hours, not check in, no text, nothing. And I think at that time, it wasn't so much I was jealous. It was just, hello, we're in a relationship where we have other people. So you need to be more mindful of who your primary is. This is someone who told me I can't do x, y, and z, and all of a sudden, he's out doing x, y, and z.
THERAPIST: You were upset.
Yeah. The deeper issue is really-- Feeling left out. I feel fucking left out, and that's not what this relationship is about. That's not what-- You're smiling because? Because the irony is, like, she's saying she feels left out. It's always people trying to include her. Like-- I love how you don't take any accountability for how you make me feel. It's not about them, OK? What would you want Will to say? What would be a way that he could convey to you that he is taking some responsibility? What would it sound like? I guess I would love it if he says, you know what? You're more important to me than all these other people.
THERAPIST: Is there a way that you can communicate to her that she is important, that she's actually the most important? I feel like anytime I tell her how I feel about her, she just says, no, you don't. That's not how you feel. So part of you feels defeated. Yeah. I try to reassure her with words. She either calls it bullshit or says, no, you don't. Or I try to show her with small actions and things, and she says that's not enough or that's not good enough. This is what causes me probably the most stress and anxiety in this relationship is just trying to always figure out how to make her happy and always failing at that. And yeah, I feel like I've racked my brain endlessly and have lost countless hours of sleep over it and just trying to think of things to do and always coming up short.
Well, what are you hearing, Ping? Honestly, just a whole lot of whining. Bullshit, yeah. That's what I hear a lot too.
PING: Yeah. Because he makes it seem like I'm this shrew running around pay attention to me, pay attention to me. I need this, I need that. I don't think I said that. I'm a little concerned about what's happening right now. Are you thinking for a second about what Will is saying to you about his experience?
Yes.
THERAPIST: And your response to that is that is a whole lot of whining, whining. It's hard to know what to do in my seat with that response, because if I can't rely on the two of you having some concern for each other, I don't know what we're doing here. But this growing resentment that I have for him, it's not from any one incident. It's from all of these incidents where I see him choosing himself, choosing his needs, putting his needs, putting someone else's needs in front of mine. So you know what? Fuck you. All I hear is whining. I don't fucking care. I am the person that he can come home to. He can get comfortable, sit around and fart and be himself. But he won't do that with other people. He puts on his best self for other people, not for me.
ERICA: My marriage, my life, my family, I'm probably like 80-20. 80-20 that my family is awesome. I love my family. It's everything that I want. And then there's the 20% that is this funk. There's some stuff that we need to work on. I, for whatever reason, tend to focus on the 20%. So what I definitely need help with is getting out of that 20% space.
Well, let's get into it immediately. Yes. So here's the situation. Sean had cheated on me multiple times.
Oh.
ERICA: Throughout our marriage. And this has hit a head last year. So this has been going on since 2016.
THERAPIST: But you did not know?
I had-- oblivious. So I am beyond enraged. And I guess I try to then tap into my 80%, but I'm off track big time. What would be on track? I guess to be a loving, supportive wife. Can you put a voodoo spell on me to extract it from my brain?
THERAPIST: Let's pretend it never happened or?
I don't know.
THERAPIST: Interesting. So the problem is that you're not managing to erase this piece of information. Is it? I mean, you and I have complete and totally difference of opinions about my activities in the first place. Because for me, Erica and I are-- we're sexual people, and we've been open and experimenting sexually.
Meaning you have an open marriage?
We don't have an open marriage. We've had plenty of conversations that would lead me to believe that what I did wasn't-- it was kind of no harm, no foul. I was in Colombia. I was telling her how much I missed her and how much I desired her physically. Her response was, I thought you would have taken care of that already, because we're in a country where you could go right down the street and find somebody for $40 to--
But he took it as that versus masturbation. You hired a woman to be in the--
Erica, we're not talking about that. We're just not, because it's like you're trying to portray this in some situation where--
But you don't want Erica to talk about something?
If she wants to talk about her feelings, by all means. But we're like, what we talking about, particulars?
No.
THERAPIST: Why not? What's the problem with letting it unfold here so I can understand what the two of you are struggling with? Every time we get into an argument, the catalyst is her wanting to talk about it some more. And after two and a half months of her making accusations of me cheating and cheating and cheating and cheating, cheating and me responding, I'm not cheating on you. I'm not having an affair on you. There is nobody else. He made me feel like I was crazy.
- So then she said--
- In my feeling.
I feel like you're gaslighting me. And then she asked me the appropriate question. Have you ever stepped out on me? And I said, yes. But there's nobody that I've been involved with in New York City or anything like that. It was literally in other countries or other states. I'm sorry, I'm not understanding. For my activities, I was in different states or different countries. I was being selfish. I was doing me and did what I did. And then, like, that's it. Like, that's all I get, and it's done. There's not more to it.
THERAPIST: Well, I guess I have to ask how the two of you think of monogamy, loyalty. What is your actual belief? Mine is very simple. I do not care what Erica does when I am not around. What I don't know will not piss me off.
THERAPIST: So your mentality is-- I've been cheated on. But is that even cheating? You're saying you want an open marriage as long as it's don't ask, don't tell?
But what I'm saying is that you can't be everything for everybody. OK, but I'm asking you more specifically, what are your views on monogamy, open marriage?
What I'm saying is, I live for my happiness. That's still very abstract. So it's really hard to get what you're actually thinking. And maybe you're not clear. My views are that people who are in my life are in my life because they make me happy. And as far as--
THERAPIST: I'm sorry, Sean, let's-- I'm so confused. Just question.
SEAN: I think monogamy is a farce. Do you know that you're being-- you think what? I think monogamy is a farce. I think it's something that too many people-- OK, so say that. Try to use as a control mechanism over their partner. I think if you love your partner, you want them to be happy. They want you to be-- I'll answer. I don't-- I don't-- I'll answer the monogamy question.
THERAPIST: What are your--
ERICA: I grew up in the Midwest. Monogamy has always been what should be applied. But I've always historically been turned on by so many different people. Why would I want to pigeonhole myself with one person when I can have the plethora? Now, I did meet Sean, and I met a man that I said, you know what? He's intimate and sexy. He's very open and willing to do experimental stuff, and it's about the box. I want all this to myself. So monogamy to me is, yes, I want Sean. Now, we have had threesomes before with different women, but those encounters have been discussed and agreed upon. So what would you be comfortable with? As far as him stepping out on his own? I wouldn't. It just makes me very furious. You were that angry and that controlling before, so what different.
THERAPIST: But Erica is saying she did not sign up for non-monogamy. She's angry, upset, betrayed by what you've done. What's your reaction? It seems like your reaction is eh.
My reaction isn't eh. My reaction is--
THERAPIST: That's what you're conveying. You sound utterly dismissive. Utterly.
I'm saying that these behaviors that she's assigning blame existed long before she had any knowledge of my activities.
BROCK: We got in a fight over text. Over? Oh, just like-- Finding a dog sitter for our trip. A dog sitter. I said I was going to handle it, and I wasn't handling it the way that she thought was the best way. And so I felt like she kind of came at me. I was like, whoa, like, why are you getting worked up over this? And then that was triggering for her, because I think you said something like, every-- You always say that. You always say, why are you so emotional? Why are you getting so worked up? It's like, I'm just explaining a situation and a problem.
BROCK: Kristi, it's the way that you do it, though. Brock, I don't know what to tell you, dude. It's just like, look, I'm sorry. Like, I've looked back at the texts that I sent this morning and, like, I don't know how else I could have worded them. You said, Brock, you're fucking us over because you're too cheap to do XYZ. Yes, we're up a creek. We are trying to find a dog sitter for nine days in a week, and you're offering your cousin $200?
Kristi, we're not up a creek. Like, it's not the end of the world. But what you're trying to say to Kristi is?
BROCK: If we get in a fight like this, I sit back and I'm like, why do I continue to entertain, like, this dynamic when, like, she's already hurt me so bad? It's just like, I always fall back to that. Like, why am I--
Putting up with her.
- Putting up with this.
- Just say it.
Not her, like this. Like why am I putting up-- What did you say, Kristi? Why am I? Her. Just like, why am I putting up with this bitch, basically.
But that is not the thought. That is not the thought, though. What is the thought? I don't like it when you talk to me like that. It escalates things. Like, it makes things way more intense than they need to be, and it turns it into a fight, and then I'm not connected with you, and I don't want to be connected with you.
Fine, then don't be connected with me. Like, I just, like, don't know what to do. Do you-- but-- I'm torn between addressing this kind of surface level communication, but it sounds like you're also sitting on the betrayal you felt and need to work something out further about what happened.
I'll be honest. Like, I don't know what else can be said or explained. She's explained it in so many different ways. And are there some things that she has said that I wish I had not heard? Yes.
What do you mean? Like, there was one time where I asked, like, if things had gone well with him, would you still be with him? And you said probably, yeah. Like, I don't know what to do.
Brock, here's the thing.
THERAPIST: What's happening right now? I feel like you put me between a rock and a hard place sometimes, because you are always asking me these hypotheticals. What if this had happened? What if that had happened? What if this had happened? And I don't want to patronize you. I want to be honest. But I also don't know. So then I'm as honest as I can be, and then you're hurt.
THERAPIST: But it is hurtful. I know, but like, I don't know. So like, if anything-- But that is the truth. Yeah, literally I don't know. It is hurtful and listen. So that's what's going on. You want to be honest, which is brave. Yeah, but it always fucks me over. It doesn't fuck you over. It means you have to bear the consequences. I know. It's like you want to be honest, but you can't stand what's coming back at you.
ARYN: We had the most tumultuous week we've had. It was, first of all, a scheduling thing about me getting an opportunity for a circus gig. But it's, like, near New York, so I get to spend more time with Josh. And I assumed that Josh would want to have more time with me, because I'm spending actually a lot of time in Las Vegas.
Just so I'll understand concretely, this would mean that you would be in New York regularly, more than you were planning to be?
ARYN: Yeah, two to three days more per week.
Got it.
JOSH: And I think it's like, that's definitely exciting. But the conversation around something that would impact me dramatically was never had. The majority of the conversation was focused on logistical exercises and assumptions. Rather than asking you how would that impact you? Or just like, hey, we're a team. Like, let's sit down, and this would be a big impact on you. Like, can we just talk about the ways in which this will impact you and if you're up for this?
What are you thinking, Aryn?
ARYN: I was honestly pretty hurt that I, like, wasn't immediately welcome in our home. That, like, everything you've ever told me is, like, you want more time with me. So I was like, it felt contradictory to everything that you ever asked for.
But you're each talking from your own hurt or grievance. In a way, you're each saying, why don't you understand what hurt me? But you're talking about different things.
JOSH: But shouldn't we be focusing our energy on the beginning parts of the friction and argument? I think that's one way to possibly go. From my experience, it doesn't really work, and it doesn't matter who started.
I just feel like it does matter who started it. It matters if you're in court.
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