Transcription
Well, first I have to say a big thank you to all the speakers today. Um, we have actually had 10 of them on the podcast, so you can binge it this weekend.
Now, one person we've been trying uh to get since we started the podcast four years ago is uh Jamie Diamond. Uh now I have a a philosophy in life that uh no is a rest stop on the way to yes and in this uh case it has worked. Uh but just um Jamie before we welcome you onto the stage just a few uh snippets here.
JP Morgan's origins trace back to 1799 to a company founded to supply water to a growing New York City. It quickly evolved into a bank and shaped its lasting legacy. Over the next two centuries, it grew alongside the economy, financing railroads, supporting industry, and expanding with global trade. But its role became most visible in moments of crisis. In 1907, as panic spread through the financial system, JP Morgan helped organize a response, stabilizing markets at a critical moment and exposing the need for a central bank. Through the Great Depression, it endured one of the most severe economic downturns in modern history. In 2000, the merger of JP Morgan and Chase Manhattan created a new kind of institution. And in 2008, it stepped into the center of the crisis, acquiring Bear Sterns and Washington Mutual. Built on generations of decisions and culture, today JP Morgan Chase stands among the largest and most influential financial institutions in the world. Welcome.
>> Well, warm welcome. Warm welcome. When we look at these pictures showing the history, the first question has to be what what is the culture that has made you able to be so successful now after 200 years?
First of all, welcome everybody. Thrilled to be here. He is persistent by the way because when he asked me about I could I come in 2025, I said I can't. He said what about this date in 2026? So here so here I am. But I am thrilled to be here. It's wonderful. Um the cultures are my whole life I was always cautious about when you talk about culture because you can say all words a lot of say employees customers and they don't mean it. So the real way you develop a culture is you just you're just driving it the grit and courage like every meeting, everything you do, every trip you make, every person you hire, every person you fire, uh uh that that you it really is about doing the right thing for the customer eventually. Obviously, do they got to take care of your employee? A lot of cultures on Wall Street, as you know, it was about money. How much money can someone make? And you know, some of the a lot some of the things in Wall Street are built on they're compensation schemes. They're not serve a client scheme. And so, uh, so I've just been relentless. You know, I when we first did the JP Morgan Bank One merge in 2004, I had a book, How We Do Business, and Bill Harrison, who was the chairman at the time, said, "You got to send it out." I was like, "No, let's do it first. Let's let people experience the the detail, the diligence, the the the fortress balance sheet, all these things, the followup, the open meetings that you you have to speak up. It's not even a choice hopefully." So, and if you do that, you just drive a certain type of culture.
>> You say you have to fight it every day.
>> Yeah.
>> What what are the kind of things you do in meetings?
>> So, you got to get out. So, when you do in the meeting or in a bus trip or on a road trip that you're talking to your people, everyone knows that you're only trying to do the right thing for the company. So, no one at the company can say they're going to insult me as long as they say because I think it's in the best interest of the company, the client. Uh that I I didn't bring my list. Uh but that when you take a a trip, I come back with a long list of stuff. Matter of fact, my management committee doesn't like when I come back from a trip because they know I'm about to lay on them. Why do we do this and why do we do that and why do we do this? Uh and this is across technology and just about everything else you do. But even in that room, you know, I tell people, my management team, the agenda is your agenda. Don't say to me, you didn't put on the agenda. you have to say that is everything important on this list and it actually puts the burden on the other people to say well you skipped this or what about you know that issue or something so uh every business has a follow-up list every business when you travel around the world you know knows each other uh uh and it's hard work you know I mean it's it's harder than I thought uh but looking back you actually do build a common culture
>> why is it so hard
>> because you you have to be relentless I mean you know if you you know when I go around I mean I don't let I try not to let even one little thing skip my attention. So if there's a you know if if I read a customer complaint and someone says to me why are you paying that's so minor I say well I'm paying attention to that because we might be doing the exact same thing to a million people.
>> It's not that minor you know or or uh you know it was a teller who told us something that shortened how long it takes to open an account. I've been in buses with management teams and they don't want to hear from the teller or the branch manager, you know, what's going on in the branch because they find it insulting. Whereas I look at them, I realize they probably shouldn't have that job.
>> What's the thing you still have on your sheets which you haven't managed to
>> I have a a list of calls I need to make a list of people who owe me something. That's the most important one. Uh and that one is really
>> Well, I I for sure owe you one now after this.
>> No, no, not owe me like that. Like I've asked a question. I'm waiting for a follow followup.
>> Yeah.
>> I want to know why this happened or why that happened. Do do we fix this customer complaint? Uh uh it could be on anything. Then I have a list of things I need to think about.
>> Uh uh I have a list of things which are going to go on another list, but I I just jott it down because um uh so it's follow up dates, calls, uh immediate issues, and I probably burnt through that list, you know, once every two or three days.
>> Yeah. By Kyle, I carry a little folder which has one by each business. much more detailed like very detailed.
>> You say in your by the way uh you write a fantastic letter every year uh and in the letter which recently came out you talk about you know bureaucracy and the way you have to uh you have to fight it. How do you how do you stop bureaucracy from creeping into the organization because you're now is a huge organization right?
>> Yeah. Uh the bure I really believe this bureaucracy complacency and arrogance will take down a company. Bureaucracy is like the petri dish of politics and everything else. And there are and by you could be a small company and have it. You could be a big company and have it. You can have it in your branch. You cannot have the other branch. And it's always the the manager stupid. I mean almost always. Uh the way you fight it is with with me all the information is shared beforehand. So you know there's no one secret. I remember going to companies and you know this wouldn't share with that part of the company. If it isn't shared properly, I can't I generally just cancel the meeting that, you know, if someone comes in and says, you know, Nikolai wants X and I don't believe that's right. I say, well, why did you wait for this meeting to do that? Go talk to them. Uh um every everything, no matter how small, get on the road, go see clients. And clients are a gift because, you know, look, they're they're demanding. they should be. But they also tell you, you know, in our case, what our competitors are doing better, why we didn't get something, what, you know, if we don't do this in that country, you're not going to give us a big piece of business because how important it is for you. And I uniquely know it might cost $30 million to build a payment system to up to a country. But, you know, it's easy to say, well, we're going to do it now. I just found out why, you know, the staff isn't doing it. So, uh, when you have a meeting, people often don't know who's running it. That's a mistake. Uh when you have a meeting and someone ends the meeting by saying that was a great meeting. We'll pick it up again next week. It's usually a bad meeting. The meeting should end with okay David you're going to do X. Talk to these people. Not hierarchical. It's just you could you know who cut across the company. You talk to HR you know consumers got the most people. This change in the program is going to affect you know their branches. Talk about come back make a recommendation. I always ask the if you're king for today what are you gonna do? Because people walk in and they admire a problem. If you ask them what they're going to do, they say, "Well, I look at this. I do." I said, "No, no. What would you do?" And and honestly, for a lot of people, it's just almost crippling uh to to try to answer that question. And so, have the right people in the room. Very often, people making decisions like people think you go back to your office and you think, "No, usually you iterate over and over and over and it gets you to the right place."
>> Why should if you don't have the right people in the room, it will not happen. talking about the right people in the room. You said teams should be small like Navy Seals, right?
>> Very little politic meaning. Also, we don't do a lot of super presentations. We just run through how great you are. Like I think you should celebrate all the time, but when you're in a management meeting with me is what does the other guy do better? Stripe kicked our butt. PayPal kicked our butt. Okay, I can go one after another. So no matter how good we think we are, I point out who's doing better. And you know, we're the number one FX trade in the world, but we're number seven in Vietnam. Why is that? And so you really dig drill down and you find out what you're not doing well, what people aren't collaborating on. Uh and then you have to get rid of the jerks, you know, and and and if you don't, no one believes you. And that takes
>> Who are the jerks? What makes a jerk?
>> It's all about them. They admire problem. I say they're like good bureaucrats do. They're graded process, but they like the process, not the outcome. Whereas I like the outcome. I like like and also I like the inputs. You know like you when you talk about business you talk about your the output your output is your performance your branch something like that but what was the input did you train the person properly did you build the right technology why didn't you put a branch why don't we put more bankers in Oslo why don't we put more the input will drive the business for 20 years the output's just the result of what you did all that time so um uh but the sharing part eliminates a lot of it uh not allowing rope a doe meetings um and you know and like I said they're good bureaucrats but some people it's always about them.
>> They they they simply can't get beyond the fact that they want they're always talking about like the next job, the next thing and you know, pounding their chest. Obviously, men do that more than women. Uh but you see these diseased behaviors and so and and I have to earn my trust and respect every day, too. It isn't like I walk in a room and somehow you have to trust me. You don't. You know, you're going to be watching closely. What does the boss do? What does he say? Does he really mean it? Does he follow up? And hopefully I'm trusted by people that and they know just it's okay to say anything to me.
>> Doesn't bother me whatsoever. I you know I I said to regulators, prime ministers, bankers, tech people just trying to do a better job. That's it. Um my board and this is important for governance. My board now I've been doing this since I got to bank one in 2020 meets without me every single meeting. I asked them to do it because you know I'm a little forceful. I have my opinions, but every time there's a big decision, I have the other senior executives come and say, "Tell them what you think. Tell I want you and they say what they think." And so might they might disagree with me, a people decision or or some risk decision or something like that. But after that, I leave the room and the board meets 100% without me. Uh, and usually the lead director usually gives me a call afterwards or David Novak when he's lead a handwritten note, you know, like he'd say a little coaching what I could do different, what they want to hear about, what they're concerned about. Uh, and it made me do a better job. I was never worried about it. They're allowed to talk to any and all senior management there. No, and no one I have never done a presentation at the board, at least not since JP Morgan that I can remember.
>> I asked
>> and they in other words, they do it all and I let them do it. I may comment afterwards, but I don't I don't do preamles. I don't say that, you know, this person's going to talk about A, B, C, D, and E, then say, "Why don't you talk about ABCD and E?" I say, "Go ahead, shoot." You know, and keep it fast. A lot of the presentations are verbal. So, if you went in there, you'd heard the person say, "Hey, in investment banking, we did great in fixed income. Let me talk about how we're going to expand uh bankers in these eight cities with these various things. We think over time, they'll deploy so much capital and so much this. Here's the risk associated with it. We looked at other options A and B, but we'd picked this one C. So, it's just a verbal and the board loves it. By the way,
>> I asked the CEO of one of the other big American banks, what made JP Morgan really special? And he said, well, it's about it's about the firm. It's not about the individual people. How do you install that?
>> I think that you know, you know what it is and right look at look at it. We all know sports teams and when you see a sport team, you know, jing or you guys look at football or American football or your football or basketball, any sport teams, you know when the team's working. They're doing their job. They learn their plays. They all want to win. They pass off. And you know when there's someone on that team who is just winning for everybody and business is the same thing except you can about it. Literally, you got we did a great job. We're the best person. The reason we didn't do as well as Goldman did is because of A, B, and C. I always say, "Yeah, it's because they're better generally and but you know it when you see it and you know that person who's ruining it, that's the team and you know I'm I just wear the jersey. I'm like the I'm not even the senior coach. I'm like the general manager. You know, we have people running the businesses who actually like they're the quarterbacks. They're making the decisions and uh but if you look at the team, they communicate all the time. I wrote in my letter about Jour's like a neural network. So live over here. She can call anyone around. knows people all around the world to help our clients and they'll get an immediate answer and you know it could be a different balance sheet different currency different problem a local revolver uh a a great idea for an M&A that you know someone wasn't thinking about and that neural network you can't replace it by the way a AI won't be able to replace it at least not for a long time
>> you say the teams need to operate a bit like Navy Seals
>> what do you mean by that
>> I think so I think you have to have the best of both you got to have small teams that are fully authorized dedic dedicated to accomplish something. So I remember trying to do do digital account over years ago and the first reaction you get is tech says okay you know AI this person says okay sales says okay marketing says okay branch system says okay it's 1% of each person's job it will not get done you need a dedicated people authorized to build an account a digital opening and that is the team they obviously have to rely on lots of people but they have what they need on the team that might be a lawyer in some place it might be compliance it might be something like that. It's hard to do. You also need the platform. You know, you can't we can't all have our own separate uh additions of applications and stuff like that. So, you kind of need the best of both. Kind of like these Navy Seal teams. They all have common equipment, common languages, common intelligence. They don't pick their own guns and their own tanks. That's common, you know. And so, you got to you got to have the best of both worlds. You got to make sure that the common one doesn't create an enormous bureaucracy that kills the ability of the team. Then, that does happen. And everyone wants to review it. Everyone wants to go through it. Uh, and you have to have like little war rooms. Okay, we're going to pick we're going to pick what do are we going to do this with data bricks or snowflake? Are we going to do this? Get the people in the room and work it out. Don't allow it to go back and forth with groups for six months or nine months or a year. Um, Nadan built he this guy did something unbelievable by the way in uh India. He built that system that identifies and I I remember 700 million people. was probably more than that by I think by eye by finger. Uh so the transfer payments and bank accounts for 700 million people now
>> what
>> 1.4 billion
>> 1.4 four billion. He did it out of the goodness of his heart. Literally, he built this unbelievable system of ID and now you can go in India and pay people QR codes and stuff like that. And then the corruption on real transfer payments, I don't know if went to zero, but it used to be kind of cash that got handed from the from the the uh state to state to state to this thing to that then distributed to the poor person over here. So I got god knows how much didn't get passed on. So
>> and just to fill in the people on the who are listening in this is uh Nandan Leani from Infosys who has done this. How do you uh you have a very deep bench or you are known for your very deep bench. How do you how do you prepare people for the next world?
>> That's a that's that when you get higher up the organization it gets harder because you only have so many choices and that is a issue about you know you can't move everyone at the same time. Lower down is easier. We move people around all the time. We've had people go from, you know, banking to CFO, from uh, you know, from this to tech. The woman running AI ran prime services for us for years. Uh, she's a great businesswoman, but she wanted to tackle AI. Uh, so we we do move people around and that that is important. Also, my management team meets every week uh around a table, open conversation. Everyone hears everything. They know almost everything's going on. So even though it's not in their business, they're going to hear us talking about consumer payment systems, wealth management products, mistakes, errors, litigation problems, regulation problems, tech problems, uh customer complaints. Um and that same group meets once a month with a detailed agenda with pre-ereads and then we meet by business. And the only other one that meets all the time is a is a risk meeting which meets uh every week. And so um mostly around markets risk.
>> Great. Well, let's move from um let's move from uh copper culture to risk culture. And so when we change topic, you can press that one. It's not the nuclear button. It's
>> got I've been looking forward to that. Um what are you seeing in the credit market just now?
>> Yeah. First of all, when it comes to risk, you have to be really disciplined and and examine it over and over and over with risk reports shared because people things change and before you know it, you're trouble. So the United States is doing fine. So when I you talking about private credit now? Yeah.
>> So private credit just to put it in context, it's at 1.7 trillion of leverage loans. High yield bonds are 1.7 trillion. Bank syndicated leverage lending is 1.7 trillion. Investment grade is 13 trillion. mortgages, which is mostly high investment grade or more, is 13 trillion. And there's a bunch of other stuff. So, you can see right from the beginning, it's not huge. It's not systemic. Even if a lot of it goes bad, it's not going to cause a problem. And some of it's longer term funded. However, here's what I say, and I wrote about this. I'm not saying it's terrible, but there's been an a slightly deterioration under Ryan standards across a wide spectrum of stuff. So, it's only been a little bit, but it's the wide spectrum. a little bit assumptions too aggressive. Uh leverage a little bit higher. Uh there's too much ratings arbitrage. Covenants have gone a little bit weaker. There's more pick in there. And the thing about credit or any investor is that you know I think there are more than a thousand private credit people. You may be you know Carlile and Blackstone and KKR and all these Aries and Blue may be brilliant but I guarantee you not all thousand of them are. So my view because that and the underlying standards we haven't had a credit recession so long. So when we have one, it will be worse than people think. It won't be terrible. It just be worse to building in private credit. That may be true for some banks, too, by the way.
>> What I'm saying is not just private credit.
>> There's a saying that amateurs don't know what to do. Professionals know what not to do.
>> Yeah. Well, that's true.
>> How do you install that in your people? You the to extend the right type of credit.
>> People have short memories. Uh I I've had people say things to me literally in the last month or two. I'm like, really? I mean, seriously? like things can't so when I when I got to JP Morgan the risk they I'm going just a little example the risk measurement was the market going down 10% stock market FX currency's moving 3% the G10 and credit spread is gapping out by 40%. And after a while, I said to him, uh, 50% down the stock market, uh, uh, 10% currencies and worst ever in credit, worst. So, high yield bonds at 500%, you know, se 40% is 700 basis points. Worst ever was 17%. And of course, people say that never happened. It's too much. Now, once you do that, and of course, a wide spectrum of stuff, it kind of undresses how much risk people are taking. And people are selling your balance sheet. They're putting puts in your balance sheet. They're they're you know they're gaining profits and results all the time until it blows up. And so our our losses uh and then you start building the business which is flow give you good prices, good service, great research, kind great execution, honest you know we fix mistakes and and you know how you build a real a real good trading business. So and then I don't guess what's going to happen to the risk. I I I always look and say okay we can manage this broad range of outcomes. low rates, higher rates, lower oil prices, $200 oil prices that can we we can argue about what we think the probabilities are, but I will not be put in a position where if that happens, we're in deep trouble.
>> What are the risks you are most concerned about just now?
>> Oh, cyber. There there's two cyber because of mythos, which I assume a lot of you guys have read about. Yeah.
>> But the bad guys can use cyber and they're going to get stronger and more powerful in terms of finding vulnerabilities. It's been written about. You really should read it. Uh and then uh and then geopolitics. So I'm not I'm not worried about the US. I don't worry about the US economy. You know, I the economy is like the weather. It's going to get better. It's going to people talk about all the time. Did you bring your but it's not the the most the most significant thing for the future of the free world, free and democratic world is the geopolitics.
>> And which part of the geopolitics?
>> I'd say the wars in Ukraine, Iran, our relationship that NATO has to stay strong. uh that we need to work with our trading partners uh to keep the western world together. I think the worst thing we can do is fragment it. Um and and remember economic relations are not just tariffs. There are investment rules, there regulatory rules, there you know there all these WTO rules there uh uh there some people just don't allow it. There's agriculture and almost every country has its own special rules. Um, but what we should be doing is trying to make sure we keep the western world together. America has 60 military allies and partners and more than that economic allies and partners. I think that is important and uh you know the fragmentation that would be the reason that a book is written one day how the west was lost and so I'm quite conscious that you know I'm going to Copenhagen tomorrow. I hope they don't I don't know if I should bring more security or something like that. Um, you know, but I'm quite conscious that we should do that to strengthen our economic alliances, strengthen our military alliances. There are legitimate complaints. No problem. We can deal with those, but we should make sure we don't fragment the world we have. And that which is precisely what Russia and China wants. By the way,
>> you uh run your uh risk scenarios. Is it every week? I think you told me last time we met or was it?
>> Yeah, there's this we do this Fed SE car stress once a year. We do hundreds a week.
>> So, hundreds a week.
>> Hundreds. Yeah.
>> And if you said to me,
>> what's the worst one? if you it's it's usually the great financial crisis, you know, but you know, we we would we'd be fine the great if if that scenario happened. And that's the one we never anticipated home prices being down 40%. That was just not on on the list. And so there's always something new out there, but we got plenty of capital liquidity to handle, you know, shocking scenarios.
>> How worried are you about inflation at this stage?
>> I'm not worried about it. But on the list of scenarios would be lower interest rates, higher interest rates, and higher interest rates with growth is one. Higher rates with inflation is one. The worst case is stackflation. And I just wouldn't take it off the list. And you know, I'm just saying, okay, if if you do that, what would it mean for us? What would it mean for our clients? We run our our clients through tests like that. We run our clients through tests like high oil prices. How many people would be under a lot of stress at high interest rates? you know, what happens to all those rollover loans that people have to pay a lot more uh interest on and that would put a lot of stress in the system.
>> You know, we'd survive it, but it would put a lot we would be fine, but it would put a lot of stress in the system. You know, again, companies are assuming that debt will be rolled over maybe 100 basis points more. Well, why not 500 basis points more? Who said that? That you know, we've had 3% we've had over 2% inflation United States for five years now. And and I think there are a lot my view and I again I'm gonna put the probabilities are higher than the market thinks. And my view is that there are a lot of inflationary things out there including the Iran war, the remilitarization of the world, the infrastructure needs of the world um and our deficits. And I I just I ask all my economists, I know you have a great economist in the room. I don't know how the world running deficits like this isn't inflationary. And you just may not have seen that yet. That dime may have been cast. It just hasn't happened yet. And so when I look at scenarios, you know, I'm not I'm looking for early indicators, but it is possible that inflation ticks up and that will catch a lot of people off guard. Not if it's 15 basis points, but if it's 50, 75, people sell a 10-year bond, etc. When things which we know are volatile, when they move up and down, it's not so worrisome. But if something we think should be stable is moving a lot, it's uh pretty scary. So given the the level of government debt um around the world and in your country, how worried are you about that?
>> You know, I know I'm not again I'm not that worried we'll be able to deal with it. I just think maturity should say you should deal with it as opposed to let it happen. The way it's going now, it will there will be some kind of bond crisis and then we'll have to deal with it and it will be okay. It's just not the way to do it. But I do but you mentioned the level of things that are adding to on the risk column are high like geopolitics, oil, government deficits uh and they may go away but they may not and we don't know what confluence of events causes the problem. So if you look at all economic history, it's different confluence of events, different tectonic places in each other. And they may affect 2026, they may not, but they need to be resolved. And if they're not resolved properly, they will cause real additional problems down the road.
>> Should we move to Europe? Say it again.
>> Should we move to Europe?
>> You
>> we should move to Europe.
>> Oh, we do Europe
>> now. um 25 years ago um the GDP of Europe and America was the same. Now Europe is 70% of the US levels. And you say that Europe never finished its economic union. What do you mean by that?
>> Yeah, we're slow walking into a real problem here. I think the European Union was one of the greatest accomplishments of mankind because after millennial of war, not just World War I, World War II, but the 100 year war, the 30-year war, war of the roses, the Spanish wars, these wars, you know, that's a lot of killing and that decided want to live in peace through political means. Fabulous. Started with the uh the call commission, etc. It never got finished. So, if you look at the part of the point of the European Union is have a common market so that all of the companies in the European Union can compete across all countries just like you can in the United States. That common market creates a huge competitive advantage for American companies. That competitive advantage helps American companies in America, helps American companies with economy skills outside of America. And uh and also bureaucracy, anti- business taxes not conducive to growth. You know, capital formation has been the thing that's driven most productivity in the world. And you have a lot of countries that put in anti- capital, anti- business. Uh so I think we should be taking care of all our citizens. That's not what I'm saying here. I'm saying that policies conducive to growth are really important. Draghi, Mario Draghy, who I have enormous respect, wrote the Draggy report. He lists them all. 300 recommendations of which they've done seven or eight. Okay? And they're needed capital markets union some common bankruptcy laws to for your banks to merge, they need to have probably common insurance schemes, you know, which means handing more power to, you know, unelected bureaucrats. But the common mark would be a huge benefit. I think it's in America's interest to help you not slow walk into it. And and now you all know it. This is not an American saying something bad about a European, but it needs to be fixed. If that number becomes 60% of America, 50% of America, you and your companies will not be able to compete with American and Chinese companies. The Chinese are building juggernauts in almost every industry. And you're going to need scale and scope. And not only is it important for business, it's important for your civilians. All of them. All of them. If this they, you know, affording social safety nets, affording national defense, you got to be a little more competitive. And so, one of the things I wrote about my letter was I know this is maybe a a dream. Okay. I I don't know if President Trump's going to read it, which is if they do the draggy report, I would give them one big beautiful free trade bill.
>> How would that work? How would that work?
>> Well, we we have trade agreements with you know the EU today and the UK today and other countries and you know there only there's some problem you'll never fix all the agricultural stuff you should the digital tax thing could be negotiated that's fair you know was kind of one side and the CSDD thing's got to go away because it doesn't work but other than that we should have free and open trade other than keeping what you need everyone keeps their own national security that was a lesson we all learned you know you need to do some things but in this case I would include French sourcing
>> so you you know I met a great company here today. Konoisburg, they make the NASA missiles. French sourcing works too. Doesn't all have to be in the United States. Um, but we do have to rely on each other for that.
>> So, so I think if we did that,
>> Europe would grow, be stronger, which would be good for America.
>> Europe being weaker is actually bad for our long-term health and the long-term health of the free and democratic world. And that so that's why and this is more like a 20 or 30 year thing. I'm not talking about the economy here, but I do think it's important that we try to accomplish that. So now you're in charge of Europe for a day. Where do you start?
>> That's, you know, that's the great Kissinger quote. If you need to talk to Europe, who do you call? I I think it has to start with MS McRone. McRone won't be there much longer. Starmer, Maloney, uh, and actually they're talking about the collition of the willing. You're not going to get all 28 nations. But if you get the six big ones to agree to do some of those things, I think the other ones will have to do it. And it'll be good for their citizens. I'm not trying to impose on them something's bad. You have more growth, you know, you know, more wealth to share. It should be shared. We should help all of our citizens. Uh, you know, usually, you know, anti- capital act like that's just good for business. No, it's not just good for business. It's good for creation of everything that feeds the people and houses the people. Uh, and I and in America, I suggest some ways to get more income to lower paid. A lot of ways, considerable ways. I think it' go a long way to fixing some of the polarization. There has been a divide. There's no question about it. And I think some of that needs to be fixed. I also mentioned that when business goes to capitals they should also ask the question what can you do for your country like John F. Kenny asked not what can your country do for you because a lot of people they go to Washington it's just about their tax break for sugar or cotton or corn or and that doesn't work anymore you know and business you know Norway and you have very sophisticated businesses but you know businesses back away from the government because governing is really hard and you know it's almost like don't go there but I don't think if we become part if we're not part of the solution it won't work
>> moving on um what will AI do to JP Morgan and the way you work
>> No, we are not going to put our heads in the sand. We're going to use AI to do a better job for you. That's what we're going to do. We already we've been doing it for 13 years. We've got thousands of people deployed in it. We have six or seven use cases around risk, fraud, marketing, hedging, design, location, uh prospecting, note takingaking, AML, BSA, KYC, and it's just started and and it is really powerful stuff. And so deploy it. You know, my suggestion would be have someone when your management team meets, they should always talk about it. It should be part of every business review you do, what are your projects, how you're doing it, what's your competition doing. Um, uh, is also used by bad guys. So part of that conversation is how we protect ourselves from the bad guys. So, you know, we and we spend a lot of money in cyber defense. That's network segmentation, passcodes, you know, everything you downloaded to JP Mor goes through multiple, you know, protection to make sure it's not polluted. Uh uh it's some just hygiene. You know, you put these rules in place, follow them. Don't allow don't allow me to be in our payment systems. I don't need to do it. I don't use it. And people sometimes give access to the CEO. Well, you should have access. No, if someone got my passcode, they're in the payment systems. So, you got to be quite careful how you do it. Uh you got to work with governments. We need we're going to need government help. We're going to have to work together with the government to get this right. It is not possible to do it just on our own. Uh because you know the weak spot, the weak link is the weak link. So that could be the Norway exchange, it could be the Fed wire, it could be a JP, it could be a vendor that serves a company that the vendor, a smaller business is taken down. The company's got to close his manufacturing plants. It it could be a loaners who were just very brilliant can use some of these things now. And think of the uniomber in the United States who are, you know, hate banks, they hate oil companies, they hate airlines or whatever. And they're gonna they're gonna cause harm. You got to you got to get involved in the protection side and then in our own company and I think government should be thinking this way too redeployment. So how do we you know if we pe people going to lose jobs we want to say to them hey we love you we got this job job here here's training you can move maybe you know income assistance or early retirement so that you're taking care of your people during this process because I don't know this is going to happen but unlike internet electricity steam engine agricultural equipment this may happen much faster than the ability of our society to adjust in terms of skilled jobs where people have a job it's not stacking a shelf it's a equal pay and so we just need to get ready and I think governments can be helped in that too not by doing the training programs but by telling local schools to do the training programs by you know giving tax breaks if you relocate someone or assist them or something so they're teaching companies how to handle this so we need you know we don't want to have so many jobs loss that you're having creating huge social problems
>> talking of which uh on the one hand you've been very vocal that you want everybody to come back
>> back to the office on the other hand you say in your letter that you think at some stage will work three and a half days.
>> Yeah.
>> When is that?
>> Well, you're already doing it here.
>> That's pretty.
>> I take that back. I take that.
>> We've gone from working seven days a week to six days a week. It was six days a week, 12 hours a day. Now it's 5 days a week, eight hours a day. All I'm saying is sometime down the road with the more productivity and stuff like that, human beings, developed world, will probably be working three and a half days a week. We'll have wonderful lives. GDP per person will be $200,000. We shouldn't that's pro that's from productivity from capital formation and uh I think work in the office is a different issue that is collaboration knowing each other socialization idea generation um we have people who work at home permanently
>> I just don't think it works very well for a whole bunch of types of jobs and if it doesn't work for the client we're not going to do it
>> we're here for the client we're not here to satisfy my employees that they don't want to do it we've had almost no issue people coming back almost no one quit the newspapers wrote about it incessantly ly uh uh and and a few people friends of mine said, "Look, I understand that you don't want to got it. I don't think that's immoral. I don't think it's wrong, but you cannot tell JP Morgan what to do. So, you have that job as long as you can. We'll work out a transition, but if you don't want to come back to work, you're going to have to find a job somewhere else."
>> You've been talking about jobs. You've been president of the bank for a long time.
>> What about being president of a country? I I think it's it's too late for me for that and you got to run, you know, and uh so I always say I if you anointed me, I'd be happy to do it, but there's no way I'd be able to get through primaries. And plus, I love what I do. Remember, I love what I do. I do a lot to try to help my company and my country and the world from here. I'd have to give that up for a quickotic thing.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Now, if we were to if we were to tie the whole conference back, we've been talking about uh what's a winning corporate culture for you. What is a winning corporate culture?
>> I'll give it to you real quick that people real detail from facts analysis. You never give up on it. You segment into small pieces. If you have companies aggregate stuff, they're hiding something. Okay? And that includes everything like allocations. You report everything everything important MPS systems compliance rules regulations not P&L P&Ls there are they accurate P&Ls I I I give people a million examples this just a little BR if I open a branch I have to expense it it's not earning money for three years at the end of three years it's making a million or $2 million a year is that an expense or a profit or or an investment if there's software I'd capitalize it and I would start depreciating so I tell people when you even when you look at numbers Don't believe the number. Think about a little bit. There are good expenses and bad expenses. There are good revenues and bad revenue. In our business, you take on a lot of bad business. They you will pay for it. There are bad revenues. And so quality how you do things. Then then you want to have a complete openness with management teams. Detailed followup list. People got to have a little grit, you know, a little bit of courage to speak up. You know, some people don't. Treat everyone with respect. Uh uh earn your respect every day. Like you know I look at my company I want everyone to say the company treats me well and gives me opportunity and I I like working there and I trust them. I we make a lot of mistakes. So you also trust me we make mistakes that we'll fix them you know and I have a list of those things I got to fix and uh and it's hard you know it's like and you got to it's got to be everywhere and we we kind of have that we kind of kind of consistent discipline and I travel around I see our people it makes me what we do for companies countries communities companies is extraordinary. We do it in philanthropy. We do it uh we do it in research. We uh and it makes me very proud and it motivates me and you know I go to somewhere on stand on stage with 2,000 people in the room thanking our top branches know not not the branch manager the people work in the branch who got the award some are crying some never been airplane and we stand for hours shaking their hands and giving out awards spend uh two days with them and I tell you it motivates me tremendously that we're giving opportunity to people and they appreciate it and they like their jobs and sometimes they whisper complaints in my ear, but I check. That's true. I always check. So, uh,
>> Jim, it's been extraordinary. Thank you so much.
>> Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.