Transcription
Narcissists are all about winning, which is why divorcing a narcissist can feel impossible. On this episode of Navigating Narcissism, I've invited top divorce attorney Dimitria Graves to break down this unfortunate and unique art of war. Unlike Dimitria, many attorneys don't understand the intricacies of dealing with narcissism in a divorce, like the fact that it's not uncommon for these proceedings to last longer than the marriages themselves.
In this eye-opening conversation, she reveals her pre-divorce checklist, debunks divorce myths, and warns of common mistakes. This is a must-listen for anyone divorcing a narcissist, thinking of divorcing a narcissist, or even thinking about getting married, period. After all, the best way to learn how to make it work is from an attorney who spent her career handling the pitfalls and the landscape of narcissistic marriage and divorce. If you don't want to go through a grueling experience of getting out, pay attention to how you come in.
This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and/or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk Productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees.
So Dimitria, I am so happy to have you here. Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule.
And thank you for inviting me.
Dimitria, the reason you're coming on the show is so important and so compelling is that in my own practice, working with survivors of narcissistic abuse, the issue of divorce, as you can imagine, is one of the primary issues I'm dealing with. It's either people who are in unhealthy marriages right, and are thinking of dissolving the marriage, people who are just coming out and making a decision, do I don't tie, and then the people who are already in the divorce process, right? You practice in California.
I do.
And each state is different in terms of how they address family law. And so the guidance you're going to hear today is from an attorney who does practice in California. While some of this may generalize, it's absolutely critical that anyone listening to today's episode seeks out counsel in whatever region that you live in, state, province, nation, whatever.
So Demetria, if you were to put together a pre-divorce checklist for someone who is about to commence a divorce from a narcissistic person, right? What are the things that you would recommend?
So number one, that I tell my clients, all gloves are off. Meaning, the narcissistic partner is going to do whatever they can, say whatever they want to win. So if they can use your mental health, they're going to do that. If they can disclose your intimate details of your relationship, they're going to do that. If they can allow with their children, they're going to do that. So it's nothing is going to be quote unquote fair, and it's not going to be amicable. So you have to prepare for that. That all gloves are off. Anything you shared with your partner, you might hear it in court. So you have to be prepared that they're going to say whatever, do whatever, because they want to win.
Dimitria, how do you prepare people for that? Because that's a lot. Like what you just said is not, that's not just some little thing off a to-do list, right? That's actually almost changing a worldview, right? How do you prepare your clients at that point?
It's really hard to do because I've had clients that are attorneys, that are therapists, that work in the court, and had to deal with, oh my God, all of my personal information is out. So we have to spend a lot of time understanding, okay, this is going to happen. How are you going to cope? Because unfortunately, I'm licensed as an attorney, I'm not licensed as a therapist or to help others kind of deal with the emotional trappings of their divorce. So I always recommend, especially with narcissistic abusers, that you have someone, a coach, a therapist, or someone that can help you through your divorce, especially during those times when you're reading the intimate details of your life, and intimate details that you thought would only be shared with your partner, and it's being used against you.
So, so the first step of this pre-divorce checklist is like, be prepared that the gloves are coming off. The gloves are off. What would you say is are some of the other items on this pre-divorce checklist?
Your finances. The narcissistic divorce will cost three to four times than the average divorce. I've had clients that were married five years or less spend a hundred thousand dollars on a divorce and counting. That's twenty thousand dollars a year for the marriage. Put that in an investment and gotten a better yield on that.
Oh, yeah.
Right. It is very expensive because the narcissistic partner wants to win. So they're going to file every motion, they're going to do all the things to win. So you can have a five-year marriage, but spend six years in your divorce.
I have so many other questions on that. So, but I want to keep going on your checklist, and I'm gonna go back and ask my questions. What else would you put on this checklist?
You have to be careful if you're residing in the residence at the time of your divorce, right? Because then a lot of narcissists know how to bait you to start making the case for the divorce. And in California, a restraining order is tied to who gets custody. So I've seen where a narcissistic partner will try to get the other partner to hit them or to have these verbal disputes with them to attempt to get a restraining order because if there's a restraining order, then the partner has to leave, not the abuser.
Oh, I see.
So you're talking about situations where people are starting the divorce process, but they're still both occupying the marital residence, right? Which is not uncommon in California because it costs a million dollars to live. I can tell you as a psychologist, where I have worked with couples where it's a narcissistic abuse situation, and they don't both leave the residence, I think that the psychological harm is ten times worse. And a lot of people still believe, even though they've experienced the abuse, that there's no way they would do that to me. There's no way they would kick me out of the residence. And I'm here to tell you, they do, and they will.
Yeah, because it's all about winning. And then I think it's very important, in addition to having a therapist, to have a support system, right? Everyone won't understand what you're going through. But again, your attorney is only equipped to deal with the business of your divorce. Despite what we tell you, we are not equipped to deal with the emotional aspects of what you're going through. And quite honestly, you don't want to pay us to deal with, um, the emotional side.
I'm cheaper than you. I know that for a fact. That's just the practical check. The checklist, right? The legal part of this is you have to be prepared that narcissists tend to hire narcissistic attorneys.
Okay. Talk more about that.
They choose people that will harass you and your attorney, that write letters, emails, seven pages, 10 pages, can be every day or every other day, extremely condescending, and make you feel like, oh wow, did that happen? Or did I say that? Or is this really happening? And so that is something to prepare for. And if I had to learn myself how to disengage, how to maneuver a narcissistic attorney, that was a new phenomenon for me, but it is very real, and it is very dangerous.
Okay. So I'm gonna ask you a sort of a procedural question. Since they probably don't have all sit on one website, narcissistic attorneys for family law, like there's not one place you can find these people. How do they find them? Do they just interview them and say, oh, you seem like a jerk, I'm hiring you? Or is there a reputation?
I think it's like attracts like, right?
Yeah, I guess so.
Yeah, tend to go to the people who you're most familiar with and who feels good to you, because it feels right. You're right. So if you're narcissistic, and you go to someone and and they say, I'm not doing that, or I don't believe in that, or no, we're not going to do that, you're not going to go with that person because you want to win and you want to control the show. So if you can't do that, then you're not going to select that attorney.
Okay, I got that. That, let's say there's two people in a divorce, and the narcissistic person picks up the phone and inquires about retaining five or six top divorce attorneys. Right? Are those people then now not just, a lot of time you're disqualified?
Yeah, depends on how much information is shared. If you just call and make an appointment, then no, you didn't share anything that was important to the case. If you call and pay a retainer fee to speak to the attorney and you speak for an hour on your case, then it's likely that that attorney can be disqualified. And if you pay a bigger retainer, yes, then the attorney will probably be disqualified.
Is that a, is that a thing that ever happens? That a person who actually is not going to retain X or Y attorney, but wants them not to be retainable as, as it were, by the, let's call them the non-narcissistic partner? Have you seen that happen?
Yes, especially in small cities, because you know, you know who the quote unquote top attorneys are. So if I disqualify all, let's say, 10 attorneys, you have to start going out to different places to people that are less experienced in those cities. So that's, yes, it is a thing.
Okay. All right. Anything else on this checklist?
Oh, yes. Most definitely. Again, we talked about the cost. It's going to take probably double the time as well. There are many cases. There's two I have right now, both married less than five years, and their divorces are set to go beyond the time they were married. And so my clients get frustrated. And Demetria, can we just offer them X amount of dollars to go away? But you know, like, I know it's not about the money, it's about the control, it's about the grandstanding in court and wherever else. So a lot of times they don't want the money, they want to keep trying to ruin financially and otherwise, the other party. It's about the game, right?
Right. I mean, that's that's really what it is. They'll game the system, draw it out, expensive appeals, delay on discovery, providing documents, and all of that. But then one day, they find their new person that they want to marry. Ever, oh, so quickly, right? They split up on paper and they push, we gotta, we gotta hurry up, we gotta hurry up. Aren't you the person who took like four months to come up with one year? Four years, right? And so it's really what it is, it's like you said, it's they have to be in control of the whole process. It's not necessarily that they draw it out. Sometimes they really try to rush it, right? So quickly that the other person can't even get their feet under them, because they want to quickly get, usually it's remarried in my experience, right? I mean, that takes me to the idea of bifurcation.
Yes. Right.
And so, and bifurcation to me is always code for the narcissistic person wants to get married, right? Right. After they've made this other person's life miserable for three years, right? And then if you could just explain for our listeners what bifurcation is, so they understand what that comes.
That's just a fancy way of saying that we're gonna get divorced on paper, and we're gonna handle the issues of our divorce later. Meaning, we're gonna handle custody and visitation, division of assets and debts. We're gonna save that for a later date. And you know, that always works out really.
So when, when the bifurcation is done and signed, yeah, those people are then legally single. They can go enter into the contract of marriage. The marriage is done, even though all the other stuff's going on.
That is correct. Yeah. Because when I've seen that happen, it was a rush for them to get into their new new relationship, new marriage, big white wedding, the whole nine yards. But this whole, and and there's this whole big mess. It's like, ever people are coming over for dinner, and you throw all the stuff in the closet, you know, the closets all right.
So let's keep checklisting. What else do you have?
Your attorney. You have to pick an attorney that is aware of what's going on, or is stern enough to stand up to the narcissistic attorney. Because they will be condescending, they will drive you crazy, and you have to learn how to draw the line. Because your client is kind of watching you as well. So you want to be sure that you're not engaging in that. That is something I had to learn. Because it is so easy when you're constantly attacked to want to attack back. But that's exactly what they want.
How did you get good at this? Because I don't imagine that there's a law school class called how to practice family law against a narcissistic opposing counsel.
It was trial by fire. Because I found myself, you know, typing away my email. They would type your email. I would type an email. And I said, what am I doing? I'm costing my client a lot of money. And this is exactly what they want you to do, is get in and trapped with with whatever their issues are. But when I started saying, okay, thank you. I have your email. Thank you very much. It stopped.
Interesting. Was there one case and you realized that you almost had to sort of take a very different tack going forward because you learned so much about narcissism and narcissistic abuse in one case?
Yes. It was a case that is still going. No, but it was still, every day, as you know, Miss Graves, I'm called, what we call a certified family law specialist. So she would always say, well, as a certified family law specialist, you should know XYZ. So it was constant job, passive aggressive, very passive aggressive. So I had to get to the point where I said, well, what is more important? Fighting with this person or getting our client to the finish line? It is not easy. I will not sit here and tell you it is easy. It is not. Especially with my personality, I want to fight back. But yeah, yeah, I had to be the bigger person. And it's better for my client. But it is challenging. You're having to do what I tell clients to do with narcissists all the time, which is don't engage.
Right. That's it. Don't engage. People don't like that. They're like, this person is talking nonsense about me. Like, I, and I said, I understand that. And in your case, it's even more interesting because of your fiduciary responsibility that you do have to protect your client financially. You're not supposed to sort of run the meter, you know, constantly. Because if you did answer all of those emails, it would be a lot of money. Them dry, right? But not only that, our clients are watching us, right? So if I'm getting upset and I'm getting emotional, then my client's gonna get upset and emotional. So I, it's not easy. And a lot of times I spend time with my client because sometimes they want to know, well, why are we fighting back? And should we be doing this? And I have to have the conversation, no, the more we engage, the more it's going to cost, and it's not needing us anywhere.
What Dimitria learned early in her career is a classic tactic that works with any narcissist in any scenario. It's called gray rocking. Essentially, acting like a boring gray rock when interacting. You respond with brief, disengaged answers. In time, the narcissist realizes that you're not going to engage, and then they will back off.
Did you know about narcissism before you became a family law attorney and before you started practicing independently?
No, you did not. No. So this is where you learned it. In doing it, a lot of times you're like, well, is this narcissism or is this person just controlling? So you do have to go and do your own research, and you do have to go and start studying and learning. And I think that's what a lot of other attorneys do that haven't had this experience, and some judges, right? Because we do use narcissism a lot now. It's more discussed than before. And if you don't enlighten yourself, it's hard to really take serious and know the signs and know how to engage in the process.
One thing I'd say to that though, Dimitri, is that it's almost less important to get the narcissism part right. You're not, it's not, it's not your job to be a personality assessment expert, right?
Right.
But, you know, you, so it would be very rare to have someone who was harmfully controlling, but then it was also really empathic and nice, right?
Right.
Like, those things don't tend to co-locate. That that very harmfully controlling person might also be coercive, is very likely to be unempathic, it's very likely to be entitled, right? You know, is very likely to be validation seeking, and on and on and on. So this stuff kind of hangs together, right? And that hanging togetherness means it's, I, the one thing I've always had a concern about is whether attorneys or even family court judges are getting too lost in the weeds level. Is this a narcissist? I said, forget it. Let's write down the patterns that are concerning. When they're done, if I were to look at the list, I'm like, probably, right?
Right.
You know, but, but I think that it's, it's going to be very rare for there to be a friendly controlling person, right?
Right.
So I think that's the other thing to almost lift that pressure off of all attorneys to say, you have to be able to make that call. But what you're looking for is consistency, right?
Right.
This is not just someone whose heart is broken and on the first day is saying, like, darn you, you're not going to do this to me, and then they're like, all right, she's not into me anymore, I just gotta, you know, all right. And, you know, what I'm saying, that there's there could be that initial moment, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about things that are going on for years and years and years. And again, it feels like that they've taken a system and turned it into a game.
Keep giving me that checklist. If we hit it all, is there anything else you want to add to that?
The children aspect. Ah, okay. That's it. That's the biggest one, right? Attempt to align the children with their agenda. And what they tend to do is buy toys, buy iPhones, buy PlayStations, and cry. I've seen the crying act. That's very manipulative. And how can Mom do this to us? Mom is breaking up, talking about the collection, right? Um, breaking up our family. We're gonna have to move. Mom's taking away your house. And children, that is very, very hard because children do not want to be in the middle. If you're buying them all these toys and constantly talking bad about the other parent, it's very confusing. Do them, prepare them, and say, this is going to be, yes, everything I'm talking to you about, we sit and have these conversations.
Okay. And so the intake process with someone that is experiencing narcissistic abuse is way longer than any other process because it's way more factors to consider. And I think it's important, you have to look at the practical side of things and the legal side of things, because I'm not there with you when you, when you're at home or when you're getting your finances together and all these other things that are extremely important, but also of the legal aspects and making sure you hire the right attorney for the situation that's going to deal with all of these aspects. And then the last thing on my checklist is over litigation. The case is going to be overly litigated. I have a case right now, we're in court at least once a month. I get two to three different motions. A lot of times I don't even know what the motion is, and we're in front of the court. And what's shifting in this particular case, I think the court is on to the narcissistic partner.
Okay. And so when that happens, and we know things start to shift, and but it took us three years to get there. And what happens in family court also, judges change a lot. Yeah. So a judge can be on to the narcissistic partner, but then they leave, and so we're starting all over.
Ah, and listen, my, what I've been told by clients, and not just in California, is that it was luck. Like, if you got the judge who understood narcissism, there was going to be a much more reasonable judgment. But if you got a judge who didn't get narcissism, the judgment almost felt sadistic, right? Even though it might have literally followed the family law code, it followed it to the T, right? There was absolutely no recognition of the game that was being played in their courtroom.
The overly litigated pieces from my psychologist chair, and these narcissistic divorces, is it's not just the, the cost, it's not just a headache, it's actually the trauma. Yes. Because I find that my clients will say, I'm having nightmares, I can't sit still, I am constantly ruminating, I am not in my life. My body is falling apart. The, this, I'm afraid to look at my inbox. Yes. And so those sorts of things, the phone pings, they jump. Yes. On rings, they jump. The email is it. And to the point where some folks were saying, I was not being good about checking my email, running into some issues at work, because it was that stressful. And it's not just about the over litigation as like, now I have to show up to court again. It's a 24/7 issue. It is. That does tremendous harm to people who are going through these divorce processes.
You have this checklist. It's great. I would say the biggest takeaway from your list to me is, you have to, you have to shift your expectations.
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
And so that's, that's a big one. Yes. And, you know, you keep coming to this point because it seems like what a person needs is a really informed guide through this process. I have often told any client who comes to me going through a narcissistic divorce, I said, you have to retain an attorney. You are not doing this online. This is not going to be simple. How do you recommend that a person choose an attorney if they're going through a narcissistic divorce?
I think it's important to have your own checklist for your attorney. Have you, have you worked with any cases that had a narcissistic person on any side? What is your approach to the solution? And if they're over talking you or not addressing the issues, they probably do not have the experience. Or if they say things like, oh, I don't know about, if I don't believe in narcissism, and that sort of thing, it is not the attorney for you. Or if it's someone that's a little more passive, you know, a little more Kumbaya, it's not going to work. It's not going to work for you. Boom. That's it. And then you do have to follow your intuition. A lot of times we have a bad habit of not listening to our intuition, especially in situations like that. I think that's just as important as the attorney checklist.
I'm so glad you brought that up because I, I cannot tell you, Dimitria, the number of people who, when they met, were meeting with attorneys and they'd say, listen, am I soon to be ex narcissistic? I'm really worried about how this is going to unfold. And we're told by the attorney, everybody says their ex is narcissistic.
Yep.
Which to me is actually a version of gaslighting clients. It's completely minimizing their experience. And it's, it's dangerous because what that does, that client is saying, I guess you're right, everyone going through divorce thinks that person was just rotten, and that's why they're leaving. And so maybe none of this is even, you know, maybe that's the wrong word. And you're right, they could get into that wrong attorney. And I'm so glad you, as an attorney, are saying this. If they are not listening to what you're saying, I've heard this dozens and dozens of times. The worst, hardest cases are the folks who come to me who are already four to six months into the divorce process, they're shredded, and they're stuck with this attorney. Right? And a lot of times, I almost say people can get trauma bonded to their divorce attorneys. They were trauma bonded in that relationship. They're working really hard, they are trying for me, we're this far down the path, justify, justify, justify, which is what happened in the relationship. And I'll say, this person is acting in your service, right? And I understand you don't want to throw more money at this problem with a new attorney, but this could end up going really badly. And what are the biggest mistakes people make when they come in, they start the process of a narcissistic divorce that you've seen?
They engage from the from the get-go. They're in the house, they're fighting, they're fighting in front of the children. They engage from the start, and that really sets them behind the eight ball because the narcissistic abuser is already planning what they're going to do on divorce. They're probably recording you. They probably have you on camera doing things that you're not supposed to do. That's the, the number one thing. I work with clients, I mean, it just becomes the war of the cameras and the recording devices. And I understand it, like from the position of the non-narcissistic person, they've said, sometimes these cameras have been a game changer because I've actually taken the footage and showed it to my attorney and said, this is what we're dealing with. But on the same breath, I have had to tell non-narcissistic folks going through divorce, you might need to to hire someone to sweep this house. Right? Probably 50% of the time, they found something. I'm sure they have. The other mistake I've seen is not having a plan. These types of cases require a plan. How are we going to address this case? Are we going to allow the other person to file first? Which I say yes, because it gives them the illusion that they're in control, and they get to set the stage. So you need a plan for these cases. It's not like the typical divorce where, okay, you file, I file, we go about our happy way. You need a plan.
Okay. So basically, the mistake is coming in without a plan, right? Continuing to engage, right? And then having the wrong attorney. I would love to share with you what I have seen, what I thought were mistakes, but I'm not an attorney.
Okay.
Okay. And I'd love to hear what your take is on some of these. Some of the mistakes I've seen is people having a very unrealistic view of what's going to happen in the family court system. The biggest being, well, people are going to see that I'm a really devoted parent, and they're sort of terrible and mean, and if I show them all the mean emails, well, they're not going to give them any custody. Right? Wrong. So wrong.
Right. Right. Remember working once, years ago, with a family, and this was like one of those really happy families, too. Like, everyone's loving each other and getting along, and the parents have been married like a million years, and everyone was happy. Daughter's going through a narcissistic divorce. And the family's like, well, they're going to see he's terrible, and he's had affairs, and he screams at the children. They're going to give you all the custody of the kids, and we're going to help you, and we're going to move next door to you. And they had it all figured out until the process began, right? And he started fighting for 50% custody, which, you know, of course, he got it. Because yelling at your wife or having an affair are not, in most states, the grounds, not certainly in California, right, to not have custody. This family was shattered. They said, we had no idea. So they literally didn't know how the system worked.
And is that, would you say that's a mistake?
I think that's not having a, a adequate conversation with your lawyer. Because your lawyer should tell you, in California, there is a really big push to have 50/50. And then on top of that, with the not a lot of attorneys and a lot of judges not being aware of narcissism, they're not looking into it that way. They're saying, how far do you live from each other? Yeah. Are the kids okay? 50/50 custody, right? So there has to be very detailed conversations about the topics that are most important to you, so you do know what to expect. And then you have to stay clear of attorneys that lie to you. If they tell you, we're going to give you everything you want, you want 100% custody, you got it, run. Because it's not realistic.
So glad you said that too, which is that idea that an attorney may promise you the moon and stars. Oh, this case, I'm easily going to get you 80%, no problem. I've heard people say that, and it was none of it was true. And what then?
Well, your attorney should be telling you the pros and cons of your case, right?
Right.
You don't want, you should not want to hear all the good things. You should not want to hear, I'm going to win the moon and the stars. You want someone that tells you, these are the pros of your case, these are the cons, this is where I think we're gonna have problems.
Yep. Yep. Yep. And, but it is a, it is such an emotional time that I also think what's challenging is people can't really hear what's being said, right?
That's a big one too, honestly. When they're coming in your office, you know, there's this whooshing sound in their ears, and they're probably hearing about half of what you're saying. So things in writing and all that would make a huge, right, huge difference.
Well, that brings me back to my original point that we are here to help you with the business of your divorce. So the more you can have support outside of what we do, the better you can potentially hear what we're saying. So let's talk about mediation. Okay? Because this is one that comes up all the time. Mediation is put out there as a, what's considered maybe a more civil and less costly approach. Is mediation ever a realistic option for people who are going through a divorce with a narcissistic person?
I think it's only a choice when they have new supply. Supply, or narcissistic supply, is the validation that the narcissistic person wants and needs. This can be praise, attention, a sense of power, control, and domination, like they might feel if they are commandeering a divorce. When narcissistic people have enough supply, we see the charm, charisma, swagger, and arrogance. These relationships are notoriously one-sided with the narcissist needing supply and the rest of us giving it. So if they're trying to get out of the relationship fast, and they really want out, and they're ready to give you what you want because they're focused on something else, yeah, then it might work. Otherwise, it doesn't. Because it's in direct contradiction to who a narcissistic person is, right? Because they know everything. So if you know everything, you can't hear the mediator. You can't hear what they're trying to tell you. You can't hear them. And they want to win. And mediation is not about winning, it's about compromising. And so if they haven't moved on, and and they're still kind of focused on this process, it's probably not a great idea.
I found your example really interesting, Dimitria. If your narcissistic person has already found new supply, you know, that they found a new person to validate. Invariably, in a divorce, is that they've met someone new, which again, narcissistic people, they're, and because they don't go deep with anyone, they're able to replace you with someone new and very quickly. If they didn't already while you were still married, right? So right. They're, they're, they have their new supply. I, that's fascinating to me, is that you found that in some of those cases, the person's found their new supply, they're feeling in a rush to get engaged and to get married, that that might be a point. If that narcissistic person, though, is so sort of feeling such a pressure that they just want to get you gone, and mediation could potentially, but you better hope they don't break up with the supply, because then the focus is back on you, and we're right back to where we started.
So now we get to this interesting place of the language people use. Words like narcissism and gaslighting. Again, I've been told this by my clients. They'll say, when you say these words in the courtroom, you're sometimes viewed as the problem. Yes. Can you talk crazy?
Okay. Can you talk to us about that?
Yes, because I think it's so, I don't want to say overused in our society, but I think it's, it's a new concept. We're learning more about it. And some people don't want to be bothered. And so most judges have 20 to 30 cases on their calendar. And so if you, you go off script and start talking about things that they're not familiar with, then you, of course, are the crazy one. And maybe we should look at you, or maybe you're the narcissist because you keep bringing it up. Courts don't want to hear it. So you have to be very careful with the language you use.
Do you coach clients who are going through narcissistic divorces on that? Saying, we're not, I get that your, your ex is or soon to be ex is a narcissist. But I get that they're gaslighting. I get all that. We're not saying these words. Do you prepare them to find different ways to talk about this stuff in front of a judge? Talk about the issue at hand. This person did not do the exchange at this time. I am concerned because of XYZ.
Dimitria, I want to understand, when a person has, you have a client, they have a narcissistic ex who has a narcissistic attorney. Are there any legal guardrails in place to stop this process from becoming full-on ongoing harassment?
Yes and no. Right? So there are codes in the family code that can sanction a party for over litigating. There's even codes now to sanction the attorney. But it doesn't happen in practice, not really.
Interesting.
Okay. There might be a slap on the wrist, a warning here, um, but not anything significant.
So what that means, what I'm hearing is that it is conceivable, some, this, this entire process can be commandeered by someone, if they have the attorney who's willing to do it for them, to turn into a place of harassment for years. I've had a case for almost five years. They've filed over 90 motions. 90. To what end? Like, those, how different can each of these?
So I worked, my client and I are just like, here we go. Wow.
What ends? Is there a point where a person who holds some form of authority through the stage or the courts or this county or whatever, can finally say, clock's time's up. We've run out. Is that a thing?
Well, we eventually get to a trial, and that would eventually end it. But we have to get to the trial.
Oh, so the trial is sort of the punctuation mark at the end of the sentence, right? But my understanding is it does take a long time.
It does take a long time. Is that because all of this other stuff has to happen first, or is it because the courts are backed up, or both?
It's both. Okay. But a lot of times we have to do discovery. And that's, you know, that's a way to extend the case. Oh, I didn't get this. Oh, I need to do another deposition. Oh, I need these documents. So, and for our listeners, just want to interrupt you, but I just, because we're using this word discovery, I know you know it, but my understanding of what discovery is, is sort of the, the providing all of the appropriate documentation of and anything that's needed to be able to to get what's so that decisions can be made in the case. Somebody write about that, right? So it could be tax documents, it could be a bank, financial bank statements, anything reads, even could be medical records related to children. But then when you're in this process, discovery is all your text messages to my client for the last five years, all your text messages to your mother for the last five years. So it's another form of harassment.
Yeah, because it doesn't solve the case. Can there, is there ever an authority that says, no, you're not getting the text messages to the mother? That's not a thing.
Like, no.
No, no, no. So they, people can just ask for anything that they want. And because they can make up any reason why they need the messages to your mom, right? You told your mom you were going to give her the house. So that becomes a way to try to obtain text messages.
I see. I see. What I tell clients, who especially when I get them in the beginning, is I, I say to them, in about six months, you're going to start regretting that you filed for divorce. You're going to think you've made the biggest mistake of your life. And I want you to know that is coming because of what this process is. To the degree I can give them some psychoeducation, that they're going to ask for things that are, you can't imagine. This is going to become your second full-time job, pulling all this documentation, getting all the stuff together. You are going to feel trauma. I tell, I like literally, this is it. This is what's about to come.
So the way we've been talking about things, Dimitri, we have definitely been talking about folks who have money. What do you advise to a person who is about to approach a divorce, they do not have resources? Maybe they're renting an apartment, but it's the stuff with custody and, you know, a child support, spousal, whatever. How do you advise people in those situations where it may very well be contentious around things like custody, but they simply don't have financial resources?
The beauty of LA County, at least, is there are a lot of self-help centers that will assist with the documents. There are a lot of organizations that will also give you an attorney if you meet their criteria. So you might have to do a little legwork and search out who can help you, where you can get the documentation. A lot of the court's website has all of the information you need, and they try to do a really good job of outlining what you need to do step by step, how to file the documents. There are also pro bono attorneys that take on some of these cases free of charge, but we all know that that's not a lot because, you know, attorneys cost money. But most attorneys will provide a free consultation. Okay? So do not go into court without at least talking to someone to at least getting some of the tools. They might not give you everything, but getting some understanding of what to expect in court, how it's going to happen, how you should present your evidence. At least try to have a conversation so you're not going in blind and not knowing what to expect. Ask the attorney, hey, do you know this judge? What can I expect? What should I say? How should I dress? Should I address the other party? At least you have some framework of what to expect, even if you can't afford representation.
Okay. So however, it's got to be challenging in this case. Absolutely. What about other issues like even around immigration status or anything like that, which could leave a person feeling like they're at peril? How does that work?
Immigration status is not presented in family court. Okay. It is not.
That's good to know.
An issue that the court will consider. And courts actually get a little irritated when people try to bring that up because it's not part of the family law experience.
Okay. That's good to know. And then most courts also have interpreters as well. So I would consider bringing your own if you think the court is going to be short-staffed or if they don't have your particular translator, but most of the times they do have interpreters available at the court. So that they're hearing. There are workarounds, but it's going to be harder. I mean, I think there's no sugar coating this as if a person is going through under-resourced, going through this experience. And again, they're so psychologically wrecked, that working their way through even through these low-cost resources just feels, it's challenging, too overwhelming. It's really challenging.
Yes. What about when you have one partner who has very few resources, right? But the other partner is is more resourced, right? So they have a job, they make the money, they're financially controlling, they financially control all the money. What about those situations?
That party can go in and ask that the narcissistic partner pay for their attorney fees. Now, that's going to probably come with a lot of, I mean, they can, you can ask for anything you want, a lot of challenges.
Yeah.
But that is the standard in family law. If one party has the ability to pay, they will be on the hook for fear. They will. Now, will you actually get it? Is the question. The court can order it. Will you get it? Is an issue. I have also seen where the, the non-abusing party loses their attorney because the narcissistic party is not paying the fees. And so a lot of times the non-abusing party is left defending themselves because they can't afford or the other side is not providing the appropriate fees.
Okay. And I've seen that happen too. So you've raised something though, that I don't, I want to ask about. Okay. I've seen this one happen over and over and over again, which is this person, narcissistic person, making tons of money, right? Bringing it in, living large. Now, this process starts, and oops, lost my job. Yes. Okay. All right. Close my business. My business, right? Close my business. Lost my job. So now this starts this entire game around support payments and all of that. Can you talk a little bit about those scenarios in a narcissistic divorce?
Well, thankfully, if they are employed, we can do wage garnishments and that sort of thing to make sure that, you know, support is paid. But it is a challenge if that person is self-employed. There's nothing to attach to. And so then the non-narcissistic party is trying to survive. So then this process becomes less important because I don't have money. How am I going to take care of the children? How am I going to live? And so now they're off their game. Why the narcissistic partner is going on their game plan, this sort of sick and twisted sort of sense of pride of like, look, I suck it to this person. I, I want, I won. I, I, and may still have resources and and whatnot that they can access because all they did was step away, like you said, from the self-employment kind of setup. And that's why I always try to talk to to clients throughout the process about the practicality of everything. Because of course, I do this every day, right? So this is my job, this is what I do. But how are you going to live? What is the plan if he takes everything away? What are we doing? Because you're not going to want to do this process if you don't have anywhere to go at night. Yes. So that's extremely important to me.
Yes. Yes. Okay. What does community property really mean?
Community property really means that all the property and the debt, for that matter, that we accrue during the marriage belongs to the both of us. Okay? So if we buy property, regardless of whose name it's in, are assumed to be community property.
Okay. Cars?
Cars.
Furniture?
Furniture. Everything.
Everything. It doesn't matter if you bought it from your bank account or my bank account, or your salary or my salary.
I'm going to ask you a funny, tricky, strange question. So I've worked with more than a few people who were with narcissistic cheaters. Oh, okay. And so the narcissistic cheater, he'd buy an expensive item, a watch, a piece of jewelry, for the, for the, for the special friend. That thing now belongs to someone else. But presumably, these joint assets were used to buy a $50,000 gift. How does that play out in a divorce?
It really depends on the station in life, right? Because if $50,000 is really like $500, it's probably not going to be a thing. A thing. But if $50,000 is twice your salary for the month or whatever it is, it's going to be a thing, and you might have to give that back.
to the community. So, in other words, but that $50,000 may have to come back in. It's a really, it's a, it depends kind of scenario. I know of a circumstance where a person found a receipt for an important, expensive piece that equaled to about $50,000. They weren't hers, right? And so then she knew that this was purchased for someone. Oh, that's definitely a divorce issue. Do you ever advise a person in a divorce with a narcissist where there's going to be all this tuning and throwing that if they can find a number that works for them, that would be less than the $50 that they're entitled to, might even be $30, but they can live with the number, right? Take it and go, even though it's not what the law might have awarded them. Uh, all the time. All the time. Interesting. Why don't you talk more about that? Yes. What is it worth to you? What is your mental health worth to you? What is your peace worth to you? What is your, you know, freedom worth to you? And some people, sometimes I have to, you know, talk them back up. Some people say, I don't want anything. I walk away from all the houses, all the stuff. I just want to go.
Let's talk about infidelity. Okay. Okay. Narcissistic infidelity. Because the fact is, not all relationships where there's infidelity end up in divorce. Frankly, in fact, a lot don't. Don't. Narcissistic infidelity seems to have a little bit of a flair to it. It's either repeated. Yes. It's in your face. And their person's gaslighted about it. Whatever it is. When you, and and they've already, if you're married to a narcissistic person, they've already been abusing the heck out of you anyway, so treating you terribly. And then there's this whole other thing happening. And so, in your experience, when infidelity is a driver of that divorce, do those divorces have a different feel to you from the perspective of you representing that non-narcissistic person? Right. They're very dramatic from the start. But again, we're managing expectations because unfortunately, in California, we have a no-fault state. So infidelity is important to the person that it happened to. Yeah. But it's not important in the context of the divorce. So I'm having to say, yes, let's talk about it. I want to hear about it because it's important to you. But unfortunately, when we go into court, the judge doesn't want to hear about it. That must be a big part again about the expectations, right? And I think that's a shocker for people who think like, it isn't that. Don't you get like points for that? No. And then some people get mad at me because I'm honest, right? Everyone doesn't, you know, appreciate the honesty. I've had people not hire me, go hire someone that told them what they wanted to hear, and then come back because the honesty is important. I'm not going to tell you, yes, go tell the court all the times he cheated on you because the court just doesn't want to hear about it.
Interesting. Have you ever represented the narcissist? Yes. Okay. Talk about it. Yes. I think that was before I really understood what was going on and when I was a lot younger in my career, where the money meant something more to me than, um, my reputation. And they know how to control you. They know how to get out of you what they want. And the money is flowing. So in your career, before you learned all money is not good money and your reputation matters, and you know, you have constant money coming in. And that's a very hard experience because you have no client control because they know more than you without a law degree. They know more than the judge. So it's very hard to maintain the case.
Now, the next thing I want to go talk about, why do people get divorced? I can spend an hour on this topic, but I heard this quote before and it really stuck with me. I think people spend more time preparing for the wedding than they do the actual marriage. People aren't talking. They don't know what they want the marriage to look like. They don't know what makes them happy. They haven't talked to their spouse about what makes them happy. So people are just getting married and then trying to figure it out once they get in the relationship. I think what's also challenging though, is that the narcissistic relationship, so add a whole level of challenge to that, right? Yes. Because with all the conversations in the world, we're never going to make this relationship healthy. And then people say, well, shouldn't people have figured this out before they got married? Ish. You know, the idea of this whole trauma bonding, justifying, um, not quite getting what this is, maybe I'm expecting too much from a person, maybe I'm the one who's too sensitive. I mean, the whole litany of things we talk about on this podcast all the time that folks are kind of in a storm. And so then there is this idea of like, but I really do want to get married. I really do want a family. If their friends are all getting married, there's this whole agenda that's happening that has nothing to do. And so I think I saw some stuff that made me uncomfortable, but there was enough boxes being ticked. I'm like, oh, if there ever there was a time to not compromise, it's before you agree to this. But even once they're in it, the justifying all that stuff continues. And communication and all of that stuff, that's all off the table. People are in a mess that they just simply don't understand. And if they don't have the language of narcissism, right, they just don't even know what they're dealing with. And most of the time, they're blaming themselves, right? I wish there were there were more procedures to get in. I wish there were more conversation, more procedure to get in and to force people to really think about the commitment. I really agree. And you know what? I think part of the problem is a lot of that has happened in sort of more religious spaces, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, marriage counseling, you know, these, these six sessions you might have to. And I think that's tricky because what I, I think that's designed like, let's talk about things. But I actually mean, sort of like, for example, when a patient comes to my practice, there's an informed consent, right? Where I'm kind of listing everything that could kind of go wrong, right? Nobody is signing informed consent for marriage. No. There is no form. No. They're not even talking about it. That's a thing. Yeah. Informed consent for marriage. I never thought about it until now. Like, please know that. Can you imagine a lot of people? And there'd be two doors. If you still want to give me, that'd be that door. And the other door, there's the bar. Right there. Right. Just have a comment. I want the bar. I think I'm gonna take a pass on that one.
Okay, so when you're in a narcissistic relationship and things go wrong, the one thing a narcissistic person cannot do is regulate disappointment. No, they cannot. A job offset, uh, not getting the bonus they thought, not getting the promotion, not getting the money, whatever it may be. Things not working out the way they want. They lack the flexibility to roll with that, right? And so a marriage that was already a little precarious because this person was really difficult to start with, when things go wrong, it all, when it falls apart, it falls apart colossally. And narcissistic people always blame everybody else for what's gone wrong, right? This is your fault. This is your mother's fault. This is your sister's fault. This is the kids' fault. This is the dog's fault. And then when the divorce process starts, this is an unfair process. This is the entire process is stacked up against me. Victim, victim, victim, victim, right? And that's how they go. That problem to that process. But a lot of narcissists hide too. They can really hide who they are. Charm your socks off until you're married. Demetria notes that narcissism can hide behind charm. It's not that they hide. It's that the superficial charm is a tactic meant to get validation. And that is on when they feel in control and in power. But lurking underneath at all times is the rage that comes out when they feel insecure. So they can be very charming in a courtroom. Oh, yes. And what's challenging about this is if a person's gone through a narcissistic divorce, they often look crushed, okay? They look crushed and broken by the process. So they can look hollowed out. They may be hunched over. They may be crying. They may not actually even look well put together because they've been through something, right? The narcissistic person comes in there, they're charming, they're grandiose, they've got, they're, they're so privileged, they feel like they belong there. They almost, they're acting like they're buddies with the judge. That's what the judges need to be able to see through, right? Because that picture is maybe of like, well, maybe this person just was like, there's something wrong with them. The other person, and this person seems to have it really well, you sort of put together. Have you ever had that situation where your client was really sort of broken down by this process, and then the charming narcissist comes in and waltzes into the courtroom, and everyone's thinking, well, they've got it all together? I have. And I've had to have a hard conversation. If we go in here crying, it's not going to be good for us. So let's cry now. Let's take a break. Let's go have coffee, and then we're gonna go back in. Because unfortunately, it is a sign of weakness. And when we go into court, again, we want to present our facts, our case, and get to the court what we want. But if we go over there, like you said, slouched over, crying, your message is overshadowed by that. It's unfortunate because there's a reality to it. The reason that person is hunched over is because they've gone through something. It's not, you know what I'm saying? It's not at all weak. In fact, that's a really strong response, right? Experiencing something real. But we, the judges do not understand trauma, right? But this is what I tell my clients too. Again, this is a business, and there's a way you have to present your business. We have to deal with our emotions and our trauma and everything we went through, but unfortunately, we cannot present that in the courtroom.
So let's talk about your not your custody. It's messy enough already. And this is where all the emotions come in because most people say, car, dining table, house, even whatever, right? I want my kids. Right? How do you help people through this process when they're starting, right? And going through a narcissistic divorce and this custody issue of minor children is in play? It depends on the war in the case. Because I've had a case where the narcissistic partner went and tried to win custody before the case even started, right? So when we're in that circumstance, and clearly that's a different strategy. And sometimes if you even start with 50/50, it kind of unravels on its own because sometimes the narcissistic partner cannot sustain it, especially if there's new supply that they're focused on. They don't even want their children 50% of the time. Yeah. No, they don't. But they'll fight for 50% because they know they're going to mess with the other person. But then it falls apart and they can't do it. So, and the fall apart process, because the decision, a court decision may be made for 50%. Right? The fall apart would then be the documentation of this pickup didn't happen. They didn't take them for any of the weekends they were supposed to. They disappeared. But they don't care about that because they won. They won the 50/50. Right? But then your client now is now going to have to mount up the legal argument and go back into court. Yep. Right? So that's the thing is that to modify. And that's not, you're not going to get that appointment right away. And so while you're waiting, those gaps of time, got the 50/50 judgment. Narcissistic person messing up, messing up, messing up. New court dates all the way over here. Right? But in this entire process here, what's happening is that that narcissistic person, the narcissistic ex, narcissistic co-parent, is lording it over them. Hey, I got 50%. Don't you plan a vacation? I got 50%. They don't take the 50%. But the court dates all the way out here. This is so psychologically difficult for people. Oh, yes. Who are holding up 80% custody. Right? They're not getting the financial support necessarily if they're entitled to it for 80% custody. Right? But then when they try to plan a life for these children, it's exactly then where that narcissistic co-parent will say, well, I do have 50%. And if you don't do that, well, then you are in violation of the court's 50/50. Yeah. That's the game. I've seen played over and over and over. And what's sad to me are the kids are watching. Yeah. They see what's happening. They're the most impacted, right? This sticks with them. And a lot of children do not have the language to express how they're feeling and what that's like. I also think of the number of people who sort of wait until their children are either coming in 16, 17 years old, or full on 18, like 18th birthday, yes, celebration of my 18th trials, 18th birthdays, I'm rolling up to court and I'm filing for divorce, right? Where the custody stuff is off the table. Right. The big question, I guess, why can't the courts just do what's right to protect children? And instead get caught in this, well, by the law, they're allowed to have this. What are your thoughts on that? I think courts think they're doing the best that they can with the information that they have, right? Because we both know narcissists can hide some of this behavior. They can present the best of themselves. And let's say, I'm use myself for an example. If I have a mental issue and I went to a mental health facility for a couple of months, you're using that against me. So now it's, how can she take care of a child if she has these mental health concerns? Or how can she take care of a child if she works 80 hours a week? And so they know how to use things against you to make themselves look better and hide the narcissistic trait. The thing that I try to work with clients on is, can we get you set up in your attorney, set things out the right way that you make the narcissistic person snap? That's the game. I mean, I hate to say game, but it's the game, right? You know, is how can we get them? And part of it is, you know, you not reacting, you staying strong, you coming in looking like your fierce self, right? And your new suit, right? Into the courtroom, right? That it's anything that can make them again, snap so that their personality will show to the to the judge.
There are other players. When there are, there are custody, when there's children in custody, there are people who represent the child in, in proceedings. Yes. These folks are a blessing and a curse because a lot of them don't understand narcissism, right? And it also depends on who they align with. Some align with the narcissist. I know that. And that can be very, very dangerous. Very dangerous. Can you explain what a guardian ad litem is from a legal perspective? Right. That's just someone that's appointed as the guardian of the child if something, for whatever reason, either parent is not in the capacity to care for their kid, okay? And so the guardian ad litem is someone that parents choose, or it's somebody who's acting, sometimes the court has to choose if the parents are unable to choose, okay? So this is a person who's in the child's life, yes, okay? And sort of helping represent their interests in the court process. And what I see mostly in family court, at least here, is either minor's counsel, yes, which is a lawyer that is appointed to for the child's voice. We also have minor's interviews where minors are interviewed by the judge to talk about whatever the issue may be. And then we have custody evaluations where someone that's like a therapist comes and evaluates the situation and makes a recommendation for the court what they deem to be the children's best interest. The bigger problem to me is sometimes they don't have enough time to really get into the nitty-gritty of what's going on. And most people don't have money to to pay for a private evaluator that can be $15,000 to $20,000. That's exactly. And then again, if that person aligns with one of the parties, it's not giving the court adequate information. And then minor's counsel, most parties don't have money to pay for the minor to have a lawyer. But I know for me and my practice, I, I don't like kids to have to be interviewed or have lawyers. That is very traumatic. They do not want to do that. It's very traumatic.
And okay, so this is another really important one. The kids are often, if it's not hurt, sometimes even traumatized by this entire process. Yes. What if you have a situation where one parent very much wants therapy for the children, but the other parent is saying no? And you, they have set up their medical care is that both parents have to sign up on joint legal custody? Yes. Which is what most parents tend to have as joint legal custody, meaning they both can make legal decisions about the child. But I will say family court is very, very supportive of therapy for children, especially in divorce settings. So you better have a really good reason why you're objecting to therapy and why you feel it's not in the best interest. Because what can happen is you can lose your joint deciding authority, and that one parent can have the, the authority to decide if the kids are going to do therapy or not. If the one parent is trying to stop something, like there has to be a really good reason, okay? All right. Yes. Yeah. However, I have seen though that, that the parent who is trying to refuse therapy could delay the first, all the processes. They're waiting for the hearing, right? Until they have that. So it could be months, sometimes even a year, the child can't get therapy because you can't get both parents. Um, judges saying that regardless, that is not child-focused. And if you don't come up with a good reason, right? I need to know why the other parent shouldn't have so legal custody. I think that the hardest thing that people learn is that family court is actually not designed to protect children. That's not its function. And that's what a lot of people think it is. And sadly, though, this system is harming children. I have worked with adult survivors of these, of these court systems. I'm thinking of one woman in particular, and she said, I was destroyed by what happened in that family court. That 50/50 custody, yes, damn near broke me. If the function of family court is not to protect children, what is the function of family court? Well, they will tell you it is to protect the children and get the parties divorced. But as we're talking, that, that's not the case. It's not the case. So, but right now, that it's pushing the cases through. Family court has so many cases in front of them, especially post-pandemic. So they're not spending the time on each case to really get down to the details of what's going on. They can only do with what is presented to them by the parties. And a lot of times, you cannot have, or we can't see the narcissistic behavior because they're hiding behind their mask, and they do it really well. To me, family court is a place where this legal contract called marriage is on, is taken apart. Yes. And I think that that contract part, I mean, it's, it's, that's not very romantic, and it's not sexy like a honeymoon or a wedding cake, but it is a contract. It is a contract. And when we take contracts apart ahead of their term, there's a process. Yes. And then what if the, what if the narcissistic co-parent keeps trying to drag the other person back into court over everything from the $100 for karate lessons to the new pair of snow boots, like every little expenditure, they're trying to adjudicate? How do you handle those cases for your clients? I have told my clients to keep as great as records as possible. Document everything. I paid you $10 on February 23rd for karate, whatever it is, to document it because nine times out of ten, if the narcissistic partner did not win, you were going back to court.
Okay, what is your guidance around family communication apps like My Family Wizard? And I'm talking parents love them. And I think Our Family Wizard has the tone meter. So if you feel, if you feel that, you know, you might use choice words, it has a, a tone meter. And they tell you the alternative to what you want to say. Imagine if we had tone meters we could wear around our necks. We walked around the world. Be a really quiet world, right? Um, I think you and I are both so familiar with the apps, but people listening may not be. So My Family Wizard, My Family Wizard has a tone meter. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about how that plays out on the app? Because I think it's a really great feature. So in family court, sometimes the court has to order that parties have to use an app to communicate, yes, with one another. And so what Our Family Wizard does, if you send an email because you're supposed to communicate with your other party, your other parent on the app, it'll tell you, hey, check your tone when you send this email. And that's based on the words. That's based on the words that you put in the message to the other party. And I also say with the apps, keep it short, please. Don't give a seven-page letter. But see, that's what narcissistic people do. If they do give seven-page letters, and you know the features of, you know, Our Family Wizard, Talking Parents, is that they create a, a record. A record that is actually admissible in court. Yes. And that starts to unravel the narcissistic, uh, mask as well. If the court continuously sees seven-page letters, that's exactly right. Does the, did the courts mandate the use of the apps? Is the parties can either agree on their own, or if the communication is just so far out of control, the court will mandate. Okay. Okay. You know what's interesting about narcissistic folks and divorces? At some point, the kids sort of feel like a nuisance to them and sort of cramp in their style and all of that. They could do the Disneyland parent thing for a minute, show up and be all that. They're not really interested in the hard work of parenting. In many of these cases, most of the cases I've seen, once they have whatever custody the schedule they were seeking, it falls apart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nine times out of ten. I think there are folks out there who think that going in front of a judge will be this moment when someone is going to bear witness in this really public kind of judicially way that someone's going to bear witness that this person's a narcissist and there's going to be this magic moment. It'll be recognized. The judge is going to see it. It's going to unmask the narcissist in this really public way. And that the person going through this will feel whole. What you got to say about that? That makes for great TV, but unfortunately, that's not realistic. Yeah. Yeah. And, and do you ever have clients who think, think that they think that's going to happen? People want to be vindicated. Yes. They do. They want to be, yeah, they want to be seen. But unfortunately, it's not in court. Yeah. I think it's a human desire that somebody, especially a person in a position of authority, will bear witness to your pain, right? And I think that if people are not prepared that that's not going to happen, it can actually feel like a catastrophic moment, right? Of even in this place where I thought that rightness and justice was going to be delivered, it wasn't seen. What is the rest of my life going to look like? Like when we have the sense of the world is an unjust place at such a big level, it can actually be this really big existential hole that people fall into. But I'm gonna refer them back to our expectation conversation, right? Of what the court is, what their role is, and what we can expect from experience. So it's got before the person goes in, they need to be aware of that, you know, right? This isn't a TV show where this is a grand moment and everything is seen and the person or people are clapping at the end and it's, you're crying and your attorney's hugging you. Sorry to bust the bubble. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's good to bust bubbles because otherwise it's, it can get messy. Can you tell people where to find you? I am everywhere. Definitely. Yes, you are. Social media, Demetria Graves. I'm on Instagram, Facebook. You can email me at info@graveslawfirmca.com. I have my own podcast, Legally Uncensored, where I talk about a lot of these issues as well. You're such a fresh, wonderful voice. Thank you. So glad that we, again, selfishly, so glad that everyone's like, I need an attorney. I got someone for you. I've got a referral. So I can't thank you for taking time out of your very busy schedule. Really important work you do to share this with. I've learned so much and I'm so grateful to you. So thank you. Well, thank you. I'm very, very happy to be here. Thank you.
Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Demetria. Let's break down Demetria's pre-divorce checklist for divorce from a narcissistic person, which is about the psychological shifts you will need to make within yourself. Her checklist highlights the issue of expectations and mental preparation. She reminds us that one, the gloves are off and this is likely to be contentious and ugly. To the degree that it is possible, you need to psychologically prepare for this. Number two, it will be more expensive than non-narcissistic divorces. Issues such as over-litigation mean that cost overruns will happen. And that means it is essential you hire a good attorney who understands this strategically so they can be mindful of their time and your money. Number three, they may hire an antagonistic attorney themselves. It can feel like you are fighting two people. Demetria reminds us that while this can be overwhelming and anxiety-producing, it is your attorney's job to handle the arrogance and the nastiness of the opposing attorney. You just need to be ready for it. Number four, she also stresses that people must have realistic expectations about custody and co-parenting. Next in her checklist is the idea that you need to hire a solid attorney that understands narcissism. If you are met with pushback like, everyone thinks their ex is a narcissist during a divorce, well, then your concerns may not be taken seriously enough. Find an attorney that hears your concerns without minimizing them because if they do not know what they are up against, the divorce may end up being more expensive and take longer. She also strongly encourages clients to work with an attorney that has experience navigating the narcissistic divorce landscape. She also warns against choosing an attorney that is too passive and assumes things will just work their way out. But above all else, she encourages trusting your intuition.
In my next takeaway, the key mistakes that Demetria highlighted were that people over-engage from the start, don't have a plan, and have the wrong attorney. This may be the fight of your life, so being strategic, tactical, and as supported as possible is essential, especially in a system that doesn't really care if your ex is a narcissist. In this next takeaway, as part of her pre-during and post-divorce checklist, Demetria strongly encourages people going through a narcissistic divorce work with a therapist. A lawyer is not a therapist, and therapy is the place to work through the strong emotions that this process can bring up. Now, this takeaway is important. Not everyone can afford to hire an attorney, and Demetria provided information on some resources to consider exploring. If the narcissistic person has an attorney, you will need one as well. And working with local pro bono and legal aid organizations can give you some essential guidance as you go through this process. So, in this next takeaway, when it comes to working through the custody process, Demetria had three key recommendations. The first was documentation. Documenting everything and presenting hard data is far more important than saying, this is toxic or the other parent isn't following the plan. Second was the use of family communication apps that allow you to keep a running record of communication. Finally, she again highlighted the importance of therapy, not just for the parent, but also for children.
And finally, for those of you not married yet, this episode may actually have more relevance than you realize. If you don't want to have to get out, then pay attention to how you come in. People are able to lavish attention on the minor details of wedding seating arrangements and honeymoon hotels. That's fine, but the same level of attention and detail have to go into talking through and planning what you want a marriage to look like. We've floated the idea of an informed consent form for marriage, and while that may not exist yet, there is no reason you can't explore these issues, uncomfortable though they may be, before you sign that marriage license.