Transcription
There's only three envelopes. I'm not moving. I'm not going to lay hands on people. [music] So, you're obedient. Get out of your seat. Come on and come bring up a seed. So, now we need to sow specifically for his deliverance. And speak this is for his deliverance. And and a good amount. If there's a good amount given to psychics, it needs to be a good amount because that's the key that needs to unlock his complete freedom. And it needs to be what his power is. Like Fire Wall Church for example. This episode is meant to teach you how to activate in the angelic realm and their response to giving. Angels love giving and they are directly connected to bringing you wealth.
Welcome to the Minor Prophets podcast. I'm John Mark Baker, joined with my co-host here, David Fish. How you doing, David?
>> Man, it's a good day. Beautiful weather kind of before the rain starts here in Texas. So, I'm doing awesome. How are you, John Mark?
I'm doing well. I'm doing really well. It's It was a good weekend. I had our church service on Sunday night. That was really amazing. I'm still kind of riding high off of that.
Well, hey, we are here to talk about a ubiquitous sin within the church and there's a clip from Paula White that has been brought to the attention of the internet as of late and we're going to respond to that because it is rightly being condemned. Now, what I want to say is that this is not the only instance of this. In fact, this is a This is a ubiquitous practice that we're going to see all over the place. And this is the sin of simony. Now, simony is Well, let's just go to the scriptures and find out what exactly simony is here. We're going to pick up Acts 8:14.
Now, when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them. But, they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then, they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Now, when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, saying, "Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
But, Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money. You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in this gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity."
And Simon answered, "Pray for me to the Lord that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."
Okay. Um so, we see here he was trying to offer money in order to purchase the power of God. And Peter says that you thought that you could purchase a gift from God, and thus being an affront to the Lord himself. Um in Matthew chapter 10, verses 7 and 8, Jesus is commissioning his disciples, saying, "Go, um proclaim the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons." And then he says this, "Freely you have received, and now freely give."
We're going to um also look at the trusty old Didache. I have brought this up on a number of occasions because it continues to be relevant. Oh, where is the where is the Didache? It disappeared. Oh, no. We have to do go on an archaeological expedition here. Okay, this is uh the Didache. This is from chapter 11. This is just an excerpt of the Didache. By the way, the Didache is not an authoritative book. It is something that was considered authoritative or at least instructional, useful for instruction by the early church. I think it was even Athanasius who believed that this should be required reading for all catechumens. So that anyone who was seeking baptism, he was like requiring, you got to read this book before you can be baptized because he considered it to be that important to the early church. So while this is not the teaching of the Lord, this is not necessarily inspired by the Holy Spirit, it is instructive on what the early church thought and how the early church interpreted the the scriptures and the teachings of Jesus. So obviously Acts 8 would have been very important and you got to see what is the principle and how is this principle that is in effect in Acts 8 being applied in the early church.
And so we see this starting in verse 8. But not everyone who speaks in a spirit is a prophet except he have the behavior of the Lord. From his behavior then, the false prophet and the true prophet shall be known. And no prophet who orders a meal in a spirit shall eat of it. Otherwise, he is a false prophet. And every prophet who teaches the truth, if you do not what he teaches, is a false prophet. This would solve so many of the issues in the charismatic church, by the way, right now, if we just just paid attention to those couple sentences. Uh but no prophet who has been tried and is genuine, though he enact uh a worldly mystery of the church, uh if he teach not others to do what he does himself, shall be judged by you, for he has his judgment with God. For so also did the prophets of old, but whosoever shall say in his spirit, "Give me money or something else," you shall not listen to him. But if he tell you, uh I got to move my screen here. Uh if he tell you on behalf of others in want, let no one judge him. But every true prophet who wishes to settle among you is worthy of his food. Likewise, a true teacher is himself worthy, like the workmen of his food. Therefore, thou shalt take the first fruits of the produce of the wine press, and of the threshing floor, and of oxen and sheep, and shall give them as the first fruits to the prophets, for they are your high priests. Well, that's kind of an interesting thing to say, isn't it? But if you have not a prophet, give to the poor. If thou makest bread, take the first fruits and give it according to the commandment. Likewise, when thou openest a jar of wine or oil, give the first fruits to the prophets. Of money also and clothes, and of all your possessions, take the first fruits as it seems best to you and give according to the commandment. Appoint therefore for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, meek men and not lovers of money and truthful and approved, for they also minister to you the ministry of the prophets and teachers. Therefore, do not despise them, for they are your honorable men together with the prophets and teachers.
Now, there's a whole lot there that we could unpack, but we'll just say this. There are prophets who are to live among you. These are sort of the bishops and the elders of your church. The The Didache seems to be indicating those are enacting the ministry of the prophet among you. And the church is to support your local your local bishops, your local elders, those whose are laboring and teaching. This is clear from the New Testament. You know, do not a muzzle muzzle an ox while he's treading out the grain. For a workman is worthy of his wages. And so, we see that principle in the New Testament, but then there's this other class of itinerant prophets who are going from place to place. And they're servicing a useful ministry to the church. However, however, if they are to stay more than a few days, if they begin to freeload, if they begin to encroach upon people, or if they begin to say, "In the spirit, give me money." You are not to listen to them. They are a false prophet.
All right. Now, David, you brought something to my attention just recently.
Yeah, real real quick. Before I Before I get to the clip, I do want to say like a couple things. One, um this passage in Acts 8 had a very very very profound impression on the early church and to the point where when you read someone like Irenaeus, for example, he basically connects every heresy in the early church back to Simon Magus. Like the early church basically traced every single heresy, whether that's historically true or not, that's how important they saw this moment to be. Simon is kind of like the example of everyone who blasphemes against God. And I want to note um our English translations here being done by very wonderful, polite scholars. Almost all of them are going to water down what Peter says to Simon when the offer is made. Right? So, if you know Greek, you know, so Peter here he says ace apollyon, which if you go to Bauer Donker Arndt Gingrich, which is like the scholarly standard for Greek lexicons, you know, the the brightest
>> know it as the the BDAG, right?
>> The BDAG, exactly. The brightest guys. If you go to the entry for apollyon and you scroll down to where the reference of Acts 20 is, you will see this phrase, "To hell with your money." Um, that is in the official Greek lexicon. So, what Peter literally says is, "You and your money can go to hell." Um, that's how strong Peter views this moment. And so, I I do like as you pointed out, Dr. Mark, I think when you look at that text, it's a very simple exchange. Money, power. So, when we're looking for simony, we're looking for those two things to be present. Money and spiritual power specifically. So, get Can my money and and of course, Simon here wants the power wants the power to impart spiritual power. But, even if you just want the spiritual power for yourself and you're and you're offering money or someone else is is claiming that you must offer money to get that spiritual power, that is simony. So, we're not talking about "Hey, if if you sow into this ministry, you'll be blessed." You know, that's kind of just a general, you know, and of course that language can become really manipulative and coercive and problematic as well. But, that doesn't rise to the level of simony. So, what we're looking for as we get to this next clip is we're looking for an exchange of power for money. And I think we're clearly going to see that.
What What we're going to see is what Why are we making this video? Um, Paula White recently and and many of you might say, "Well, we know Paula White's bad news." Um, well, this conference that Paula did recently, I believe it's called the Unleashed Conference, Featured a host of different Christian leaders, um political leaders. That's one of the things we can do a separate video on is there's there's very much a um intentional mixture of kind of political speakers, um Christian leaders, pastors. Um if you aren't aware Paula White heads the national faith advisory board. So, this is not a marginal figure in the religious life of our country. Um this is the number one most trusted person to represent Christianity from uh the president's point of view and from, you know, the the top of our government down. And so, that's a significant thing. This the role that she wields is very very significant. And yes, Paula White has demonstrated extremely problematic beliefs and behaviors for many many years. Now, this is nothing new. But I think there's a new generation of leaders because of her political influence that are leaning in to gain influence in many of these circles. Um and so, you're going to see, for example, Malachi O'Brien is going to appear prominently in this video. Um Malachi O'Brien who is um I think by his own admission kind of one of the architects of cover-up culture. Um I don't think he would even mind me saying that cuz I think he would he would be honored that I believe that that's true of him because um you know, Malachi basically appears on every post to kind of comment and say, "I support so-and-so leader who's, you know, covered up abuse or whatever the case may be." That's been his role. He's on the board He was on the board of IHOPKC. He was on the board of IHOPKC. Um when asked would never be transparent about his seat and position on the board. So, there's all sorts of issues, but my point is you'll see him he's appearing on stage and there's a lot of leaders who are present. So, this is a very important moment. And it demonstrates um something very specific about the theology behind this kind of segment of the charismatic plus kind of word of faith and the mixture of that. Uh and so, I think it's going to be really instructive for us to look at it.
Yeah. Uh by the way, one thing, some things that keywords you may want to look for. I'm actually not sure if they show up in this video, uh, but they will show up later in this podcast. Sowing into the anointing. Um, so the exchange here is Simon Magus's, "What can I sow into your ministry, Peter, so that I can receive your anointing?" Um, an exchange of money for power, as David pointed out uh, earlier, or an exchange of money for ministry. Um, that's an that's another thing. So, it's it's and it's not like, "Hey, I'm paying for this conference," or I'm, you know, I'm I'm paying to attend or reading this book, I'm buying this book. Those are, uh, in my mind, separate things. Instead, this is directly, uh, giving a transaction to receive the ministry of the spirit. Um, so it costs X amount of money for me to lay hands on you, uh, those types of things. Uh, when it there's a direct correlation between those things, this, uh, reveals something very deeply wrong that we think that the gift of God could be bought with money.
So, with that being said, let's turn our attention to, uh, uh, Miss Miss White Cain. I You know, uh, I don't know what to call her anymore, so here we go. Keep praying. Keep praying. How many of you want to help me with that, Eddie James? [music] How many of you want to be a blessing? Because I'm telling you there's an there's an anointing of release right now. I want a hundred thousand dollars to [music] come in. I want a hundred thousand dollars. There are people there are ten people that could give ten thousand dollars. There's a hundred people that could give a thousand dollars. Get a check, make it payable to Paula White Ministries. There are people that are watching right now who say, "I don't have it." Give a hundred dollars. Bring up a sacrificial seed. This isn't for me. This is about kids [music] that will die.
So, she's saying that it's not for her directly, and I think that that does matter to say, um, especially when we look at what the D D K had to say is that, hey, um, don't judge somebody if they are like asking for money for somebody else.
>> Yeah, and you heard, just one short note on the beginning of this, you heard, what is this framed from from the beginning? I sense an anointing of release. Now, first of all, as with a lot of these hyper-charismatic slogan words, what does that even mean? Probably even she doesn't really know what that means, but the point is, um, the
>> This is a very Yeah, this is a very common tactic where, first of all, she senses something that you don't sense, right? So, this is the elitism of the the woman of God on the platform. She senses the special thing for the room. And for this is the gnosticism, right? For you to be able to get into this, there's something you got to do. I sense it, but you're not going to be able to get access to what I sense until you bring up a sacrificial seed. So, she's setting the ground, and she says, it's for Eddie James. And then she says something here, which, by the way, um, is an extremely manipulative and coercive thing to say, right? Kids are going to die if you don't bring up your seed. Now, I don't know what it is specifically that Eddie James is doing. It could be great, he could be saving lives, right? Doesn't actually matter how noble the ministry is. What Simon Magus wanted to do was an objectively good thing, right? It It's objectively good for people to receive the Holy Spirit. So, Simon, in his mind, has this noble goal of I want to see people receive the Holy Spirit. But he connects it through the lens of I can buy this and I can purchase it, and that's the fundamental issue. Mhm. Right. Uh, you also have to wonder, like, by the way, here's here's old Malachi O'Brien right there. Um, but you have to wonder, this is a Chanel uh, belt, is that right? Yeah, it's
>> a 16 It's a I believe a 16 or $1,700 belt. Yeah. Um, I I wonder if somebody could do sort of like an investigation on how much this whole wardrobe plus this microphone would cost. And I wonder how much money that would bring in for the kids that are going to die. Uh, if they were to just sell sell just a couple of these things, you know what I mean? Anyway, but you know, they're not going to give sacrificially. You've got to give sacrificially. Anyway, let's keep watching.
die without you being obedient. This is about kids who are going to be mistrals [music] and instruments and warriors and mighty for God. This about kids who going to make a difference. [music] I'm not going to take everybody's blessing. Come on. I'm going to tell you get a seed of sacrifice. Thank you Dan and Pre-Born for helping sponsor this. If you don't know Pre-Born Ministry, you need to get to know it. Thank you Dan for helping with this. Thank you to the ministries that helped with this. I pray supernatural blessing and over Again, Pre-Born probably a great organization. I think I know a little bit about them. They're a pro-life organization, is that right? I think so. I think so. I'm actually I'm not sure either, but yeah, a lot of a lot of people tangentially connected to this might be doing great things. Yeah, we're not we're definitely not saying they're not. Yeah, anyway, just to make that clear. an overflow over you. But in the name of Jesus, how many of you say I want to help with the kid? I want to help [music] with the kid. Get your seed. Get your seed. Everybody bring it. Every single person bring it. Get a seed right now. I'm going to pray over people, but you got to e- I think it's releasing you when you when you begin to release something that is sacrificial.
>> All right, there it is. There's the first one. There's the There's the first one. Go keep it going, yeah. And if I'm not even asking I'm not asking for somebody to buy me a house or car or give me a salary. I don't take any [music] of that. I got a husband and he's a good one. He's a real good husband. He's a very good husband. He loves me with all his being. I adore him. I honor him. I respect him. He's good to me. He cooks for me. Don't hate. Don't get jealous. He cooks for me. He loves on me. He tells me how proud he is of me. He prays
>> they she got married to her current husband just months after his divorce to his previous wife. Um Yeah, I believe Yeah, I believe this is her her third marriage and and we We don't ever bring things like that up to to make light of difficult situations that people might go through in their lives that might lead to a divorce or something like that. But um you know, when when Paul says that an elder must be a husband of one wife um things like that these kinds of things are important in terms of qualifications for leadership. But you'll notice she's already done the first iteration of I'm going to lay hands on people. But then what has to come first? But you got to bring your seed. And so she's it keeps priming the ground. She goes, "I'm going to give you a spiritual uh a some kind of impartation of spiritual power. But you must make this transaction in order to unlock that anointing of release. And the language that she uses, which this is also very common, I don't want to steal your blessing. Yeah.
>> So I I can't do this for you. You have to bring it up and that will that will pour back on you and I don't want to take that away from you, right? Yeah. Now again, this is not as crass as some of the other things that I I have seen and and we will probably see later in this
>> Yeah. in this podcast. It seems here again, she is raising money for something else. Hopefully that money is going to those things for which they're allocated. Um but she's like this is for Eddie James and then this is for um Pre-Born and you know, I but it's all funneled through Paula White Ministries. Um so yeah, we'll I'm not even speculating about any of that. Uh we're just looking at the theological aspect here.
prays over me. When I'm sick, he doesn't say here's a pill, he starts to anoint me, and he gives me communion, and he lays hands on me. Don't you hate Come on. Come on. Get in the arena. Get in the arena. Get in the arena.
>> There's only three envelopes. I'm not moving. I'm not going to lay hands on people. To your own obedient, get out of your seat. Come on. And come bring up a seed. Come bring up a seed. Come bring up a seed. Eddie, don't worry, you're going to get it anyway. You're going to get it with or without the people's obedience, but I got to break some ground up in this place. [music] I got to break it. Malachi, it was the least giving any Unleashes ever had. The whole week was less than one night we've ever had. The lowest Unleash offering was $59,000 on a night, I think, in a day. It's not even been 40 for the whole week. But that doesn't matter. God already raised it. God's already given it to me. Doesn't matter. I'm not doing this cuz I need it. I'm doing it to break something off there. given it to me.
>> it to break a mentality. I'm doing it to break something. I'm doing it to break something. I'm doing it to break something. I'm doing it to break something. I'm doing it to break something. You need a break Yeah. What's that about? What's that repetition for? Well, I I I hate to go this direction because I I think I want to Okay, I want to be really balanced here. Um some of the uh you know, we love our our uh well, he's not my friend, but uh I I'd love to meet him, you know, but we obviously have a very different approach in our channel from someone like Steve Kozar. Um someone like Steve Kozar would point out here that there does seem to be a kind of uh hypnotic situation going on here, and I I'm not saying that playing music behind someone is demonic or anything like that automatically. But it is true that just psychologically, when you have like a band swirling around and you just repeat phrases over and over again, "I'm going to break something. I'm going to break" Like it does like I'm I'm already kind of like dazing out over here just watching the video again. And so, I do think we have to be careful. There's a reason why John Wimber, for example, would not allow music to be played during ministry times. John Wimber was very sensitive to this. He did not want any kind of emotional manipulation to contribute to any kind of like faking or exaggeration or anything like that. And so, John would say, "Hey, let's let's not set like too much of a mood." And so, you can see here the lights are down and the music's going. And you notice I want to point back to you you know, a minute or so ago when she said, "I'm not going to lay hands on anyone until you bring your seed." And notice again the elitism throughout the whole video. She has to break something. She doesn't need anything broken. You need it. And therefore, you must bring the money, put it on the stage. And I think people at home can see transparently why this is actually happening. Which is that Paula is personally offended that that she has not seen the amount of money that she would like to see come into the conference as it has in past years. And this is really, in my opinion, I can't read it another way than basically a personal ego trip at the expense of these people of I am so offended that you have not given money to this conference that I'm going to make a scene in this meeting and basically stop everything until you give a certain amount. It's true. You [music] need things. You need a building. Come on. You need a wedding dress. You need some things, but you're struggling all the time financially. That's not the kingdom [music] of God. The kingdom of God is not every wish and every want, but it is provision for the vision. The kingdom
So, this is intentionally targeted towards people that are financially not doing well already and she's say she's targeting those people. If you're struggling financially, what you need to do is give her money with her Chanel belts and that's got to be a a specific microphone to her. I don't know, but like Money she already says money she says she already has. So again, she's already repeated
>> Yeah. I already have it. Like her personal her ministry. She's like I've already got it. I'm going to give it no matter what. But you have to give it so that you can be blessed. Yeah. Yeah. And listen, she might be very generous behind the scenes with her own money. I I don't know. Maybe she maybe she is giving out money to preborn herself uh to to quite a degree. I don't know that. Um but it it is uh it is rather crass to be standing up there wearing what she's wearing bragging about her finances and then asking people who are already struggling struggling financially to give to whatever cause she's raising money for. Um and then and then saying that uh her laying hands and evidently ministering some sort of ministry of the spirit is predicated upon your financial gift. Um that would have been condemned by the early church. The kingdom of God [music] is there is no lack in Christ. He will supply all your needs according to his riches and glory. [music] The kingdom of God, there 30 people right now that can give a thousand dollars, Pastor Todd. You and I know [music] you give him one, I'm giving lots of them, too. Come on, I know I know what this is about. This is about freedom over my unborn great-great-grandchildren. This is about what I've done for these kids, God is going to certainly do for mine. That my lineage and legacy, I got [music] too many prayers, too much in the arena, and too much seed in the ground. Come on, get up here. In the name of Jesus, Pastor Paula, [music] if all I have is $10, then bring your $10. But you get something down here and say I'm not going to leave until I put a seed and a sacrifice on this altar. [music] I'll keep on I'll keep on You guys have no idea. I'll keep plowing this because I'll break every demonic chain, every spirit of poverty. Come on, how many of [music] you get afraid? Come on, how many of you get afraid of giving sometimes? I break it in the name of Jesus. You're looking at your bills, you're looking at your checkbook, you're looking at what's ahead of you. God, [music] whatever we did wrong with financial decisions, we redeem it and we ask for your forgiveness. We repent of being irresponsible. We repent for [music] being materialistic. We repent for doing things for ourselves more than we did things for your [music] kingdom. We repent
>> [laughter] >> Oh, yes. I'm just going to remind everybody what she's wearing. It It's just First of all, at a minimum, let's take the simony piece out of it. And we've This has been coming up over and over again with the Todd White situation, with so many other situations. If we could make Matthew 6 required reading again of Jesus saying, "Do not practice your righteousness in front of other people." This includes fasting. This includes prayer in a performative sense, right? Jesus is not saying we're not allowed to pray in front of anybody, but we're not allowed to perform our relationship with God in front of other people. And that includes almsgiving. That includes donating money. Jesus says, "Don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing." It seems like Paula White's left hand knows exactly what her right hand is doing. Because she is announcing she will go on later, We'll see in just a a few moments that she will talk to another person in the crowd and say, "You know what it's like to give a thousand dollars seed? I've done it many times." She will repeatedly talk about how much she has given.
>> Yeah. Yeah, uh yeah, she she just said that in the in the video. Like it's a cancer eating away at your life [music] and put it at this altar. Take this. Take poverty and debt like it's a cancer [music] eating away at your life and put it at this altar. Put it at this altar. Say, "God, I'm redeemed in the name of Jesus by the blood of [music] Jesus. Now, look Hold on. Theologically, what did she just say? Take poverty and uh death and cancer. So, um according to Word of Faith views of the atonement, poverty was atoned for through the through the death of Christ. Um uh you know, other views, Pentecostal views are like, you know, maybe not poverty, but certainly um sickness, uh death, uh those things are paid for in the atonement and then she clearly connects it to the blood of Jesus. And take those things and put it at the altar, meaning your monetary exchange is purchasing for you the atoning work of Christ. That's right. Yeah. I don't think she think is thinking about what she's saying here.
>> Yeah. I think she's just, you know, diarrhea of the mouth. But the the reality is that is an egregious thing to say. It is an egregious thing to say because we've pointed out time and time again. Imagine you're somebody who is struggling in your finances, you're in debt, you are objectively poor maybe, and you're in that room. And you leave without giving. And I've heard these stories time after time. And you are haunted, your child gets sick. And I'm serious, this is the actual ramifications of this theology. Your child gets sick, and in the back of your mind you go, "I didn't I didn't put my seed on the altar. And so I I didn't break it." Right? Because if if you could just break this by a simple act of faith, um which some word of faith people would never do simony, and they would just say, "You just need to have faith." I think that has its own set of problems, but at least it's not saying, "This is your moment." So this you you you can see she's stressing over and over again, "This is your moment, and you're going to miss it. And so if you leave this place and you didn't give, everything bad that happens to you is because you didn't take advantage of the moment when the woman of God kind of opened up the heavenly portal for you to receive this breakthrough." Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. All right, let's keep going. Line everybody up. Pastor Todd, [music] line them all up, and give me room to pray for people. Give me room to pray. Many you need to get a seat up here. If you're not going to bring one to the altar, text to give. Go to paula white.org to give. In the name of Jesus. Tamara, take the offering. Tell them to go count it. I want them to count it because I want to tell [music] them what they gave. I want to tell them we don't This full transparency, guys. [music] If a 100,000 is taken in, you will be blessed tonight. If $10 came in, we got to keep on praying. Yeah, so we can stop we we we can we can stop it there. This is basically the end of it, but what you can see is two two final things as we wrap up that clip. One, line everybody up, but then it's very clear because she's she's already been emphasizing this the whole time. Basically, and I'm not I promise, you know, I'm not trying to read too much into what she's saying, but based on the fact that she's already basically said it four times, it is impossible to not conclude that what she is saying here is line up if you've given a seed. If you have not, don't come up for prayer. Like this line is for the people who gave the sacrificial seed. So, what is the exchange of simony, folks? Uh an offer of money for power. If you have placed your money on the altar, you can have the power. And she's going to go and prophesy over people, and she's going to go and uh tell a man that he's never going to uh get sick and die, and that he's going to live until he's 90. And you know, nobody's going to hold her accountable for that word if the guy dies at uh 80 or 85 or 90. So, she's going to go and kind of do her thing, and Malachi O'Brien's going to be right there with her as her catcher the whole time. And all of this is predicated upon an exchange of money. What it doesn't matter if it's for a good cause. Every person in ministry believes that their ministry is a great cause. Everybody in ministry believes that they're changing lives. Everybody in ministry believes that they're reaching the lost, that they're See, like there's we can always justify why it's a good reason. But I also again just want to point out in closing just how manipulative this is. It's so there's a such a manipulation behind it of people's emotions and people's poverty and people's insecurity. And all of that is being weaponized. And the fact that she says, basically like a scolding mother, "Hey, go back there and count it. And if it's not enough, I'll come back and I'll tell you we didn't do it. Like we didn't get there. You need to do it again." Man, it it's it's crazy. But this is not the only instance of this sin. Um this is far more far more ubiquitous than I think most people realize. I'm going to play uh a clip here. This is from the 2024 Southwest Believers Convention. Um and uh this is George Pearson taking up the offering. He spends nearly 10 minutes taking up an offering which is uh not a long time by Word of Faith standards, I don't think, but uh let's let's see what he has to say in his offering.
Three Paul saying to his partners, "I thank my God upon every remembrance of you. Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy for your fellowship or your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perform it unto the day of Jesus Christ. Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all because I have you in my heart. Inasmuch as both in my bonds and in the defense of the confirmation of the gospel, you are partakers of my grace. The Philippians the partners with the Apostle Paul. Those that were sowing into his ministry were partakers of the grace that was on him. What is He's he's about to equivocate on this term grace and he's going to say that it's the anointing. Um, Paul defines it in the previous sentence in my confirmation of the gospel and in my imprisonment, you are partakers of the grace that is upon me. The grace there is his ministry and his suffering. And so you're the Philippian church was sharing in the eternal rewards for the ministry that was being done. But he's about to equivocate on this term and turn it into the anointing that was on Paul's life the Philippian church was about to receive, but I think we could just maybe do a historical check. Um, were there any members of the Philippian church that had the same ministry as the Apostle Paul? The answer to that is, "No." Like, no. Why? Because God has unique callings for each and every individual. You can't just like pay money to receive receive this a portion of the spirit on somebody else. And And that's not what the Philippian church was trying to do. But that's what George Pearson is attempting to get his congregation or the the people that are there at the convention. He's about to try to get them to have this attitude.
The grace that was on him, the anointing. The anointing of God on Paul was on the Philippians. And that's part of the benefits of sowing into a ministry like the Apostle Paul's and ministries like these that we're hearing right now. And let me share this with you. We've [clears throat] heard this from Brother Copeland before, but Kenneth and Gloria Copeland were at Oral Roberts University in 1967. And Brother Copeland was co-pilot uh taking Brother Roberts during those months that he was with him in in 1967 to the different meetings. And there was a particular meeting that he was in and Brother Roberts was speaking. And he had a It was a partner service that he was conducting. And in that partner service, he told the congregation this. He said, "This is Oral Roberts speaking. I will do the preaching and I will go to battle. You can be a partner with me and receive the same rewards, the same anointing for $10 a month." He said, "You will receive from unexpected It's a It's a subscription service to the anointing, I guess. For You can You can receive the same anointing for $10 a month. Imagine Imagine Imagine laying hands on somebody uh but your card was declined for that month. [laughter] Sorry. You had it and then the you know you know what happens like I've had my internet accidentally turned off one time because I didn't know that my card was being declined. So yeah, you had the anointing and then I'm assuming based on this that you you lose it if you don't keep giving. Yeah. And so this really went off on Brother Copeland and of course at that time they didn't have much money. They were he was a student. They were in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And
>> [clears throat]
>> all he had to give and some of you might be able to answer this quickly. All he had was a pencil. One of the little pencils that were in the envelope. So this is part of the mythos of this ministry.
>> put that pencil in there and determined to become a partner with Oral Roberts. And as he was leaving the building a woman came running up to him and say, "Hey you, the Lord been worry working me about giving you this $10." So Brother Copeland got his envelope back. He took the pencil out and he put in the $10 and then he went home from that meeting and he announced to Gloria, "We can have Oral Roberts anointing for $10 a month." We can have Oral Roberts anointing for $10 a month. And this is being used in order to extract funds from the attendees of this conference whom I presume I don't know actually that maybe this is a free conference. Maybe we can maybe you can fact check me here David as I'm I can. as I'm talking.
Yeah, it is a it is a free it is a free conference with the caveat that there is at least a 45 minute offering message every [laughter] every single session. And I that's not speculation. And that for a fact. The offering message will be anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour. Um only dedicated to the offering. So, free with a considerable asterisk. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, the the um this one was only 10 minutes long, which is still uh far longer than I'm comfortable with. But, um uh what what do you think about that, David?
I have a lot of I don't think we have to be prophetic to Yeah.
>> what you think, but
>> I have I have a lot of thoughts. Um I've met George Pearsons uh numerous times. Um Very nice man. Um the theology is unacceptable. It It is. And the the ramifications of the bodies buried underneath the bus um of that ministry and honestly, I and I hope this isn't off topic, but one of the the first things that comes to my mind was last year, I watched Bill Johnson at that exact same conference get up on the stage and say, "You guys need to know that Kenneth Copeland Ministries and this conference is one of the biggest blessings to the body of Christ because of how faithful you are to the word of God." Yikes. And uh you know, this isn't a vi- video about Bill, but as John Mark and I, we've obviously been doing a lot of work wrestling with the consequences of uh seeing the lack of discernment in the body of Christ. And so, I think for the Malachi O'Briens who are participating in the Unleashed conference, for the Bill Johnsons who are coming and headlining Southwest Believers Convention, um there comes a point where you have to say, "This is an unacceptable level of theological error and um manipulation and coercion." And I can tell you at Southwest Believers Convention, there's an incredible amount of manipulation and coercion to give um because that's that's kind of the entire ethos of of what's going on and you have Jonathan Shuttlesworth at the same conference that Bill Johnson is at and he says, you know, I'm still you know, this is still one of the few places where we take the hundredfold return seriously. And he just tells the people straight up. He says, I can't believe that people are telling you that it's wrong to give to get. He says, Of of course we give to get. You give and you get a hundredfold return and that's literal. So if you give $10, you will get a hundredfold return. And that's just straight up what they say and so I just the vast majority of people and I've been to Southwest Believers Convention. Vast majority of the people that are there are in wheelchairs, they're in uh they have crutches, they're hobbling in, they're wearing some people are walking in clearly in tattered clothes and they are desperate for something to go right in their life. And so to hear this that if you just give that $10 a month, it's my your life will turn out like my life. Um right. It's really twisted. Yeah, you not and not even just that, your life will turn out like my life or you will receive the powers that I have by the spirit. Um but you know, the scripture says this, if uh Paul's talking about the the grace of God and if if grace could be merited, it would no longer be grace. Right? It would no longer be a gift because it would be wages, it would be earnings, it would be a reward for good behavior. We as good Protestants know that we cannot do anything to merit the grace of God. It is by God's grace that he gives. And so then to say, well, it's by God's grace but it costs $10 a month is is not only to say um God's gift is not free. It's also to make yourself the broker of the gifts and graces of God. It's It's charismatic indulg- It's charismatic indulgences, is all it is.
>> That's what it is. Charismatic indulgences. And And you know, our our forefathers in the Protestant Reformation, you know, uh fought against this system where a priest must mediate and you must In the Middle Ages, right? The The Roman Church later corrected this error, but you must pay to buy an indulgence that will acquire some kind of spiritual result by lessening your time or the time of a family member in purgatory. And this was actually the number one thing that led to the split. It wasn't even just uh salvation by grace through faith or sola scriptura or all those other things, and those were really important. The initial thing was, "Hey, it's wrong to tell people that they can pay through your mediation to achieve some kind of grace or some kind of merit, as you said, John Mark, that will have some kind of effect, whether it's in this life or the next." That's right. That's right. It is to say, you know, in the Nicene Creed, this the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, and then, you know, of course, the uh the Western Church added the filioque, you know, the Father and the Son, uh but we add another clause, the Father and the Son and me if you
give me $10 a month. So, um here's here's another clip I want I want to share, and I think that this is important. This is Katherine Krick. Uh she is doing what is an ostensible deliverance, and this kid is, you know, convulsing on the floor. I don't know that this necessarily actually looks demonic in in my view. Um I think he might be mimicking some of the beha- I don't know, though. Um but the mother is obviously very distressed, and we can see this.
"I want nothing but Jesus. No, I want my boy set free. And I renounce the Jezebel spirit in my family and my bloodline. I renounce"
She's She's obviously very much like um this mother who's speaking. She's like, "I renounce the Jezebel spirit that is in my family and my in my bloodline." This is her son that's manifesting, you know, quote unquote this this demon. So, she's obviously very much um indoctrinated already in in this in in this uh ideology.
"I renounce everything that is not of the spirit of God. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Father. I break every generational curse off of him, off of her now in Jesus' name and I detach them both from everything she renounced. I break every curse of witchcraft, every sacrifice made upon his life. I cancel it. And on three, I command every spirit attached to what she's renounced must leave him. One, two, three."
So, no effect. Um tarot cards, bringing my kids to psychics. Um Can you Can you renounce specifically what it was with the psychic that happened, the interaction? Just renounce it specifically.
"I renounce going to a psychic to Not with him, but with my older kids to for our future, for what our purpose was. And not Jesus because I didn't know that it was an abomination. Thank you, Jesus. I detach him from what she's renounced and I command every spirit attached now. Thank you. Thank you, Jesus."
God is going to free him completely. There are different keys to receive complete freedom. Here we go.
"What happens is the more that we entangle ourselves with with witchcraft and psychics and things like that, it's like a more complex deliverance. So, sometimes it's not just about the commanding the demons, but there's other keys that need to be unlocked. And one of them is to sow seeds."
Did you pay money to the psychic? Yes. Yes. How much? Hundreds. Hundreds. Ongoing for years. Look up. I didn't know, but I've been following this It was ongoing for years. So, in the spiritual realm, there's laws. I've been I've been sowing 10% of everything that comes to my hands for the last 2 years. 10%. God's saying more. Okay. Because 10% is was what's what what God. So, now we need to sow specifically for his deliverance. And speak this is for his deliverance. And and a good amount. If there's a good amount given to psychics, it needs to be a good amount because that's the key that needs to unlock his complete freedom. And Yeah, you get it. A good amount needs to be sown. Uh you need to sow for his deliverance. Jesus says, "Freely you receive, now freely give."
She is um you know, attempting this this deliverance or or whatever it is. And and saying, "Oh, it's not working. It must be because you haven't given enough money." Um the the grace of the Lord Jesus is free. Salvation is free. Deliverance is part of the atoning atoning work of Christ. I believe in deliverance. I've seen it. I've I've I've seen it happen. Legitimate deliverances. I've I'm not a skeptic about deliverance. Um but I am certainly a skeptic of people who are making the claim that for you to receive what is the free gift of Christ, you need to you need to pay some sort of money. This is simony. It is.
And what's what's really funny is and this is an issue with Benny Hinn and with other people as well. Um the one clear story we have in the New Testament about other than the seven sons of Sceva, which is kind of its own separate problem, where a demon is not coming out, um the blame is blame. It's not That's not even probably the right word. The responsibility, so to speak, um is placed by Jesus on his disciples. And he says this kind comes out only by prayer. And of course we can talk about textual variant there. I think Katherine Kuhlman thinks there's an extra textual variant that says this kind comes out only by prayer and sowing a seed.
Well, she has a whole course on all the various keys to deliverance. And so there's there's more than just that. So the point is the fault the fault or responsibility or what whatever you want to call it for the fact that this boy is not being delivered cannot fall on Katherine Kuhlman Krick because she's the woman of God. So it cannot be that she lacks faith or whatever like that's not an option here. It's also not an option here for that for there to just be mystery. It's also not an option. You know what I'm saying with like we don't really know why this is happening. We don't know exactly what's going on here, but let's just keep praying, right? This kind comes out only by prayer. Like let's continue to pray. And no, there has to be an added level of responsibility placed on the mother. So again, there's always some kind of stand-in. There's always some kind of mediator. And so here it's like um the mother is now being forced to take all the responsibility for a demon in her son. That's not scriptural at all. Nowhere do you do you does Jesus show up to a demon-possessed person and be like, "All right, Mom, you better figure it out. Like, you better figure out how to get your son free of this demon." He casts the demon out. That's the only pattern we see. We don't see this blame game where these whether it's healing or deliverance ministries are always finding a way for it to be your fault or your mom's fault or your cousin's fault or your great great great great great grandfather six generations ago why what they have promised would happen in their meeting is not happening to you.
Yeah. And uh lest there are those who think that this is some sort of um aberrant, you know, uh misstatement or misunderstanding of Kathryn Krick and she doesn't believe that or or teach that anymore. Um this is just a post on her Instagram from last year, April 2025. This is uh promoting her book Unlock Your Deliverance. Uh which is you know, it's when you sow into anointed ground, you reap abundant blessings. Sowing into anointed ground isn't just about giving, it's about stepping into alignment with God's power and unlocking the breakthroughs he has for you. When you invest in truth, you reap the fruit of freedom, healing, and abundant life. Unlock Your Deliverance is here to equip you with the keys to lasting freedom. Don't settle for partial breakthrough. Step into all that God has for you.
And you know, this is um so she's doing two things. One, she's she is propagating this teaching that sowing can unlock your deliverance. She's also selling a book um that teaches this and other keys to unlocking your deliverance. And um you know, I'm uh I think she was actually recently on Daystar to promote that book. Um a whole other can of worms. Anyway, all that to say, Simon is bad, guys. Like, may your money perish with you. Like, so the the deal that Simon was trying to strike with uh Peter, what must I sow into your ministry in order to get your anointing? Simon is Peter is saying, may your money may your silver perish with you or as David put it, to hell with your money. And and but we're we're not offering that. We're we're saying, hey, what do you want to give me to get my anointing? You know, maybe it's as little as $10 a month or maybe it's maybe it's something more. Maybe there's there's there's 30 people here that could give $1,000 right now. And I'm not going to lay hands on you unless you bring your seed. Like, this has to die. This has to die. It is it is an affront to the spirit of grace. This is an affront to the spirit of the living God that we think that we could buy with with money something that cost Jesus his blood to pour out on us, the spirit. This is a sign of the new covenant and then we are offering it in exchange for finances. This is a sin and we should repent. Like, I I feel this so strongly in me. This is probably the most passion I've gotten on this podcast, but this is this is sin. This is sin. This is evil. This is wicked. It's got to stop. And and we cannot tolerate this anymore and shame on us when we haven't spoken up about this. Shame on us. We cannot tolerate this anymore and those who are offering this, may your money perish with you.
Yeah, and and it's right to be angered by this, right? And we're not Jesus and and sometimes people make it sound like they're Jesus when they use analogies like this, but it is true that when Jesus sees the money changers in the temple, um he is extremely angered, and his response is to turn over those tables because a financial transaction has gotten in the way of his people being able to meet with him. And he says, "You've made my father's house, you know, which is supposed to be a house of prayer, right? Which prayer is just this pure unmediated interaction between God and man, where nobody has to get in the way and nobody has to be your mediator." Like and he's saying, "You're getting in the way of that by trying to make a transaction that will cause more things to happen, or whatever the case may be."
And I just want people to know, um I would appeal to you that if you're writing this off still as, "Oh, well, that's just a couple weird ministries, and that's not really a big problem. That's not really a big issue." I'll say I'll say two things, Tan. I was at a conference with uh Katie Souza, um who has been platformed and still is platformed by Patricia King, by other kind of big uh charismatic ministries, and she began to prophesy and give words of knowledge. But she said, "I feel a block in my prophetic gift, and I believe people need to come begin putting seeds on the stage." And so here we have it again. It's It's also this performative thing where it has has to happen right then. You can't do it later. It has to happen right now um in front of everybody. So you have to either give in front of everybody, or be exposed by not giving, and embarrassed and humiliated. Uh and and people begin to come up, and they begin bringing money. As they begin bringing money on the stage, Katie Souza says, "I feel your seeds are unlocking the prophetic gift in me." And she begins to give more specific words of knowledge.
Um I was there. Many of them were not true and did not resonate with people. Um so it really wasn't unlocking anything uh in the moment, but but the point is Did you get >> back if the if the word was That's right. Hopefully there's a refund policy, but the point is she said the more you give, the more you're taking this. It is unlocking something in me. And I think it is absolutely not too strong to say that that is witchcraft. That is demonic. That there's nothing being unlocked in you.
Yeah, Katie was just recently I'll I'll drop the the clip here in the video. Advocating that people give to activate their angels, the spy angels that will go out and find money for you. And so if you give a certain amount, and by the way, here's the link to give to my ministry, and um you can activate those angels. Let's go into today's topic, and we're talking about angels connected to wealth. But also how angels respond to your giving. Stop just throwing your offering in the bucket and walking away, oh well, I hope something happens. This episode is meant to teach you how to activate in the angelic realm and their response to giving. Angels love giving, and they are directly connected to bringing you wealth. It's the people that have the faith to go, you know what, this money's not mine anyway. It's God's, and God will provide for all my needs. And I believe as I sow generously a sacrifice, it will be remembered by God, and what will happen? An angel will be sent to involve me in a world-changing event. Some of you even need to sow your seed right now. Right now, at the beginning of the of the broadcast. As I pray for you right now. You can even pray after me. As you're preparing your seed, you can just say, Lord Jesus, I want to be involved in a world-changing event. And I know the angel responds to generous gifts that are made in sacrifice. So, Father, I let go of my fears. I let go of my doubts. I I sever my agreement with a withholding spirit. And I sow a generous gift believing that you'll send the angel to involve me in something incredible, something world-changing, something that will shift the atmosphere in my family, in my friends, in my household, in my neighborhood, in my state. I want to be picked. So, I sow my seed now and I fully expect my generous sacrificial gifts to be remembered and an angel to be dispatched.
So, as you can see there, she's taking the story from Acts chapter 10 where Cornelius has a visitation from an angel and the angel says that your alms to the poor have arisen to God as an incense. And so, um God dispatches angels to Cornelius because of his faithfulness to him and his alms to the poor. Then she says that if you give, you can activate angels. And by the way, you can give to my ministry. Well, is giving to Katie Souza's ministry the same as giving alms to the poor? No, not even close. But she's saying, "Give generously and um and you'll get angels that will activate wealth for you or will involve you in some really important, grandiose event, a world-changing event. And if you give to Katie Souza's ministry, God will involve you in that." And that's absolute absolute garbage.
Yeah. And and so, I just want to say, one, it's extremely widespread. And look at the Unleashed conference billing. Look at all of the names on there. Look at the Southwest Believers Convention billing. Look at the names on there. Look at the names that have platformed Katie Souza. And if if Simon is a serious demonic level twisting of God's very spirit um and a blasphemy against God, um then it does become a no association kind of sin. And And And if you don't believe this is widespread, don't try to look in the US. I have been all across the world, but specifically I've been to Africa at least eight times. I've been to Kenya five times. And all of the pastors that we support in Kenya say, "This has spread like an epidemic across our entire continent, and it was exported from us in the United States specifically, from the word of faith movement, where people are going into slums, where people make less than a dollar a day, and they are saying the exact same thing that George Pearsons is saying. They're saying, 'And it might not be $10 a month, it might be the equivalent of 10 cents a month.' But the point is, they're going into these places where these people are poor and broken and hurting, and they are completely abusing and taking advantage of them, and it starts from the wicked root that comes from our expressions of the word of faith movement and people like George Pearsons. And people like Katherine Krick and all of these people who routinely go over to Africa and other places and export this, and it is a blight and a shame upon the church specifically in the United States. And you know what? I do believe in identificational repentance from the book of Nehemiah and the book of Daniel. I think that's in scripture, and I think we ought to be doing quite a bit of identificational corporate repentance over the way that this has grieved the Holy Spirit.
Yeah. Amen. Amen. Well, man, this is a this is a heavy podcast uh but aren't they all?
[laughter]
Um thanks David for for joining me today and uh pray that um that this this video was instructive, that it was uh helpful and that it will bring about repentance as the Lord is cleaning house within the charismatic movement. May he continue to do so and may his refining fire bring purity and fear and reverence for the holy name of God and that we who believe in the ministry of the Holy Spirit that is present today, that we believe in the supernatural working of God's spirit would stop treating the third person of the Trinity with such a cavalier and um just casual attitude that we would think that sin that is this grievous that goes on in his name is no big deal. We who are charismatics should should be ashamed of ourselves for this. And um that we would allow this to happen. Anyway, I could just keep going. I'm go I'm not going to I'm going to end it here. God bless you and we'll see you in the next video.