Transcription
Hey guys, it's Jackson Buhigh with TMZ here. It's necessary before we get into this interview to put a trigger warning here. I interviewed Jess Michaels who is a 1991 Epstein survivor. What you're about to see is her testimony regarding how Jeffrey Epstein sexually assaulted her and she goes into great detail about what happened. So, if you are a survivor of sexual abuse or sexual assault or it's something you are currently dealing with, watch at your own discretion. And if it is something that you are struggling with on a day-to-day basis, please call the helpline that's on screen right now. You can also download Jess Michael's app #withyou2 that's on screen right now. Currently helping survivors of sexual assault. Uh, so let's get into it.
>> I don't know if you remember when the birthday book came out. There was an image of Jeffrey Epstein. He has three girls. He's on a lounge chair. When I was doing that trial massage, he abruptly got up and he said, "You're doing it wrong." He said, "You're you're going to have to take off your dress. You're going to have to let me show you how to do it. That's how you learn." I really just shut down.
Hey everybody, it's Jackson with TMZ here. Today I am joined by Jess Michaels who is a 1991 Epstein survivor. She is also the founder of the With You To Social Safety App. Miss Michael, thank you so much for joining me today.
>> I can't tell you how grateful I am, Jackson, to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.
>> Of course. I I'm very grateful for your time. Um, now take us back to 1991. Who were you before Jeffrey Epstein, and how did he make his way into your life?
>> In 1991, uh, I would say July 8th, 1991, the day before I was raped by him. 1991, I was 22 years old. I was a thriving professional dancer. I was working all over the world. I was I had just come back from Tokyo where I was doing modeling contracts, TV, movies, um uh dancing with a company 6 days a week. I was happy and in a career that is extremely competitive and very difficult to thrive in, I was thriving. And uh I come home from this contract in Tokyo and my roommate um tells me she's working for this wealthy Wall Street guy.
>> So this roommate of yours tells you about this Wall Street guy and uh when she's describing him, what does she tell you?
>> She tells me that she's been working for him for about 6 months. She's very complimentary, very respectful of him, seems to really like him. He is training her to be a massage uh a masseuse. We didn't really call it massage therapist back in, you know, 1991 and the the licing was ambiguous back in 1991. So he was training her in all of these supposed international massage techniques and because she was also a professional dancer. Jackson, I I want everybody to understand that was not uncommon for us to have different side jobs while we were auditioning. We would we could do massage, we could do photography, we could do makeup, we could do waitressing. Uh, a lot of people did temp work, but finding a side job that would allow you to audition, allow you to um be able to run off and take a contract and not lose your position uh in in that career was was really rare. And she had found it. This man seemed to care about dancers, want to help advance her career, and uh she was making a ton of money, traveling around the world, and learning this new skill and being paid to learn it.
>> And was she anything was there anything that she raised to you at the time um that might have caused some alarm bells in the back of your mind or was it just this man who was very philanthropic and wanted to support dancers?
>> It definitely made me question it being too good to be true. Mhm.
>> Right. Because uh so so I did ask her, you know, one one question was, "Are you in love with your boss?" Because she seemed to really like him. The other question I had was, "Is it just massage?" To which she said yes. And
>> I believed her. So I asked my questions when I was concerned and when some red flags went off and felt felt really confident and trusted my friend. This wasn't a new friend. This wasn't just a roommate. This is someone that I knew for a year and a half. I'd spent 5 months on a cruise ship with her. She was somebody I loved and trusted.
>> At what point uh does the bridge between you and Epstein form?
>> So, she's telling me all about him for about 2 months. And I I have to tell everyone this like I think this is important for them to understand. I was jealous. I was jealous of this job that she got because it seemed to be the perfect side job to be able to do and be a successful professional performer. And and so it would be 2 months of me hearing about her trips and seeing her money and hearing, you know, Jeffrey, Jeffrey, Jeffrey, for her to finally say, uh, in July of 1991, I got a dance contract. He's looking for a backup person. Would you like to meet him? So I jumped at the chance of course to meet him and that very first time that I met him I went in for an interview to his office. It was actually Les Wexner's building on Madison Avenue and uh went into his office. Um, he was shockingly, I thought, kind of stoic and very professional and very serious about massage and the body and muscle groups and techniques to the point where when I was sitting with him, I thought, I'm not going to get this job. I don't know as much as I thought I did. And I thought I had an inn because of my friend and it it and it didn't seem to be true. and he he seemed to portray the image of like I'm the authority heel. You don't seem to know what you're doing, so I'm not so sure you're going to get this job. And he asked me to come around the back of this kind of old metal school teacher looking desk. The the office didn't look impressive. It didn't I I didn't I was even questioning whether he was really this wealthy millionaire because the the office was quite sparse. It was that old metal school teacher desk. and he opened up the drawer and in the drawer were these uh this it was called the book of massage and it and there were dozens of them the same book dozens of them and he said you're going to have to study this book and we'll see how it goes. So, I left that office not sure if I actually got the job. Uh, right right away went got a notebook, went home, started studying because I'm an overachiever and I thought, "Okay, I may not have known enough for you when I walked in that door, but I know I can study and I know I can get this job." So, my roommate gets home and she says, "Jeffree liked you, so here's uh a number you're going to call and you're going to go for a follow-up um a trial massage, like a follow-up interview." And I spent that week studying that book. I filled a notebook with all of my notes, and I created a tiny cheat sheet for me to bring to the follow-up interview.
What I'll point out is I've I've interviewed multiple Epstein survivors over the course of this month and there is a um there's a common there's there's a common trend I'm noticing to where he'll create this barrier to entry when he'll meet his victims and he'll go actually you're not good enough to be around me and he'll get them to do certain things whether it's reading a book or researching something to create this idea that it's a privilege to be around them.
>> Yes. very that that is a wonderful way to say it and I would say I I I've started to develop my language in studying you know my own trauma and my own experience and it it it he had to establish authority. He had to establish a sense of authority and a sense of hierarchy and like you said a barrier to entry. That's exactly what it felt like. And it felt like I was going into this second interview to prove myself. I had to I had to prove to him that I was worthy to be there. Exactly. And the one of the other things that I've learned, the more that I learn about just basic sex trafficking 101, you know, my friend bringing me to him, that happens on every street corner in every town and city in our country. That is nothing unique to Jeffrey Epstein. That there's not some special formula. That's exactly how it's done. And it's another way that he created a sense of trust to drop my barriers.
>> And so he put you in this position where day in and day out you are studying this book that he has told you to read and you go back for your follow-up interview. What was that like?
>> Well, it was very different building, different environment because he had invited me to come back to a penthouse that he was in and it it was not the townhouse that they always show. He didn't own it at that point. And it was this penthouse where I went into the doorman and the doorman put the key into the elevator to open a special elevator that when I went all the way up the doors opened into the apartment. And I walk into the apartment and there is I'm in the the foyer, there's a wall. I walk around the wall. Um I hear Jeffree say, "I'll be right there." I walk around the wall and it is floor to ceiling windows in this apartment. And this is the first time that I have a sense of, oh wow, this man really is a millionaire. Really does have a private plane. Uh there was a sunken living room. I had never seen one of those before. It's one of the reasons why the memory sticks with me because I I was really impressed with the sunken living room and the view of the city was breathtaking.
>> Is it was there anything that stuck out to you besides this sunken living room in the penthouse? I mean, floor to ceiling windows with a massive view is is quite overwhelming for someone that is trying to make it as a dancer and someone in your position.
>> It's it's kind of funny, too, because um uh when I tell my full story, I actually grew up in a trailer park and worked my way through dance classes paying for them for myself. I had never seen anything like this in my life. So, it was uh very destabilizing.
>> And so, he says, "I'm going to be around in a minute." And at what point um do you make contact with Epstein? Um when he comes around that corner, what happens? How's the interaction?
>> So, Jeffrey comes around the corner and he's in a white bathrobe and he has a white towel. It's why sometimes when I see all of the pictures that come out and I see those white bathroes, it can be really activating for me and really uncomfortable and I just want to throw up when I see those white bathroes. So, he comes out in a white bathrobe and he has a white towel and um I as I explained before, I was I was really successful. I'd navigated a lot of success in my life thus far, my year and a half as a professional dancer in New York City and living in Tokyo and navigating the the entertainment industry there um modeling and in TV in movies. So I I felt like I I wanted to assert myself and ask the uncomfortable question. I asked him, "So, Jeffrey, why do you hire professional dancers to do massage when clearly you could hire a professional?" That was my first question to him when he came out. And he said, "Oh." And he said, "Dancers have such beautiful bodies. They know how to take care of themselves. Uh, you know, would you want a fat personal trainer? and you know, I may want you to do uh dance lessons for me. And he does like a little pa in his bathrobe. And then he does something that um was the first moment. If you if you asked me when was the big moment that I wished I turned around and left. Um he said, "And dancers are comfortable with nudity." and he takes off his robe, puts his robe on the back of the dining room table like nothing. Grabs the white towel, puts it on the floor, and lays down. Doesn't even look at me. Doesn't look to me to ask the question. Just tells me dancers are comfortable with nudity. And in my brain, I just go, "Wait, she didn't say anything about nudity. He didn't say anything about nudity." And it it but at the same time, he really normalized the behavior. And what I didn't understand at the time was that of that was a very manipulative move to see how far he could push me. And it and it is something with um narcissists and predators. Every single sentence that comes out of their mouth is about crossing that line. How many times can they cross that line and test you? test to see what you do next so that they can adjust their behavior.
>> I'm wondering I if you are even able to put it into words, which I I imagine is very difficult. Can you describe the level of shock that you were feeling when he stripped down naked in front of you and you're standing in a very uh unfamiliar place? How were you feeling at that time?
That's a great question because um as I've started as I've been through obviously a lot of trauma therapy and I've tried to break down that moment and what was happening in my brain and in my body um as a childhood sexual abuse survivor. What started to happen in that moment and the level of shock was that my um my survival system in my body started to activate. And what that can do is you start to shut down and just dissociate just a little bit. And I I noticed that I just um lost uh a a tiny sense of time. That's the only way I can express like I I started to lose time in that moment. I started to shut down a little bit and lose time and that is the for me was the beginning of a massive just freeze and dissociation. Um, and I don't mind sharing it. This is I actually share my story because it took me 30 years to understand that what happened was automatic and involuntary when I froze. And I think that what we know from the research is that to freeze is the most common response. Um, so I' I'd like to share that. I' I'd just like to go on if that's okay.
>> Absolutely.
>> So I grab my cheat sheet. I'm I'm definitely uncomfortable. I kneel down and I start telling him all that I learned from the book. I start to to be the perfect little student that I can sometimes be. like just I'm very um detailed and I share the names of the muscle groups and I go through the different hand positions and I tell him I've I've created a whole choreography of how the massage would go. And this goes on for a little while and we're chatting and the conversation starts to devolve into sexual jokes. As a matter of fact, um I don't know if you remember when the birthday book came out and there was an image of Jeffrey Epstein that somebody had drawn where he has three girls. He's on a lounge chair. One is at his head, one is at his feet, and one is in the middle. And that was extremely activating for me. Uh I was very upset the whole day when I first saw that image because he said that exact joke to me that day when I was doing that trial massage. He said, "Oh yes." And you know massage is very different in other countries and sometimes you know you have three women massaging you at the same time. One at your head, one at your feet, one in the middle. Haha. And so that would be my second moment when I just started shutting down and getting scared. A few moments after that, he abruptly got up and his whole personality changed and he said, "You're doing it wrong. You're doing it wrong." And I immediately thought, "I'm not going to get this job." Like, that was the that was the level of discontent that he expressed. He wasn't angry. It was just a personality shift because he'd been so friendly before then. And he and he said, "You're you're going to have to take off your dress. You're going to have to let me show you how to do it. that's how they that's how you learn massage. You're going to have to let me show you on your body. And he said, "It's it's it's just professional. It's not a big deal." And he he normalized it in an annoyed annoyed voice. And um that I really just shut down. Um I think this is a really important point for the people in your audience to understand. There's a part in uh trauma responses, it's not just freeze, it's called fawn or appease where your body shifts from the prefrontal cortex and being able to make decisions and that part shifts out into survival mode and we appease and we can freeze and we go along with what's happening not because we chose it but because our body recognized we were in a really dangerous situation. It's kind of like um a de the the sentiment is a deer in the headlights, right? Um there's also like people say play possum. The possum isn't playing. It isn't a choice. The b that that possum's body just shut down. It happens in animals. It happens in humans. It's really similar to when you put your hand on a hot stove and it automatically bounces off and you don't have to think about it. There's a defensive part of the body that is constantly constantly um searching and and and noticing whether there's danger and it activates the minute it senses danger and decision-m is gone. So, Jackson, I took off my own dress. And what a lot of our our justice systems and society doesn't understand is that at that point I was already back being that 5-year-old girl who had experienced sexual harm and I laid down and then I started to freeze and disappear. The way I describe it is that um I didn't um a lot of people talk about how they leave their body when they dissociate and that didn't happen to me. Um, I kind of fell backwards like into darkness and and I describe it as I kind of fell backwards and into myself and things started getting black and I was falling farther and farther away from the scene of the crime. And I didn't want what was happening. And I wasn't saying anything. I didn't scream. I didn't fight. And I didn't run. And he raped me. Um, sometimes I feel like I have to just check in on the people I tell my story to.
>> No, I No, I'm Please, none of the concern should be on me at all. Jess, I want to say from what you've told me about yourself before you met Jeffrey Epstein.
>> You were a go-getter. You were happy. You were inspired. and and from just, you know, the the half an hour or so that I've been talking to you, I can tell that you are empathetic, you are astute, you are just lovely. And and the fact that there are people on this planet that will do things like what you've described is it's awful. It's inhumane. It it's it's it's plain disgusting. It's it's plain disgusting. I I don't think there are words that can describe just how awful that is. I'm I'm so sorry, Jess. That I'm so sorry. It that that is absolutely atrocious. And what I think an important question that I have for you is, you know, being the founder of with with you two and your mission to empower survivors of sexual assault and sexual abuse, is there a common misconception about survivors that you think should be touched upon in this interview?
>> Yes, thank you for asking. So, I want to say a couple things. First thing, anybody of that's watching that's in your audience that froze, anybody that you know took off their own bra, took off their own dress. I want to let people know and remember that predators know their prey. And the reason it got to that point with Jeffrey Epstein is because of all the testing that happened before that. He was testing my reflexes. He was testing my defensive system. he likely knew I was going to freeze long before I did. So, so that's an important point. The other thing I want to say is that in 1991, like when I left that penthouse, as I understood the law back in 1991, rape was determined by one question. How much did the victim uh resist? And so I didn't fight, I didn't scream, I didn't run out of there. I walked past that door man as if nothing had happened. And so I blamed myself for 30 years. And when I didn't fit into the legal definition of what rape was, it's as if I also believed, well, I wasn't injured and I really wasn't sexually assaulted. And so I would go on to develop post-traumatic stress disorder because I never really got the help that I needed because I thought it was all my fault. And I wouldn't learn that I was actually sexually assaulted until Julie K. Brown's Miami Herald article came out and those first four brave women came forward, Virginia, Courtney, Shante, and Michelle. And I I realized for the first time in 27 years, I realized I was not the only person that Jeffrey Epstein raped because for 27 years I thought I was the only person that it had happened to. And because I was isolated, because I blamed myself, I never got help. And um I would learn after the article came out, after I started talking to my therapist, after we started dealing with is that we actually can help people that develop post-traumatic stress disorder, that sadly sexual assault survivors have the highest rates of post-traumatic stress disorder than any other tragedy, including combat. And study after study after study tells us so. So what I developed was the thing I wish I would have had and that was support and that people around me knowing what to do. So so my app is a social safety app that helps peers know exactly what to do when someone needs support and it includes a 90-day sexual assault first aid kit that notifies them week by week what can we do now? What what can we do this week? It treats sexual assault as an injury rather than a crime. That we focus on the injury first. Just like Jackson, if if I told you I was in a car accident last night, your first question wouldn't be, "Did you call your insurance claim claim? Did you make an insurance claim?" It would be, "Are you okay?" But the first question we get if I tell you I'm sexually assaulted, you would say, "Did you go to the police?" Right? I mean, that's the most common response. And if if people started responding with, "Oh my gosh, are you okay? Are you feeling safe? Um, do you want do you can I show up for you right now and make sure you feel safe so that you're not alone?" We started knowing what to do for each other in those moments, we could greatly diminish post-traumatic stress disorder. But then I also believe because we've regulated that nervous system, made someone feel safe, we're going to have a better chance of getting justice for that crime, but we're just really doing it backwards.
>> Your testimony is very compelling, Jess. Uh, and I just want to thank you again. You have my you have my utmost respect and appreciation for being able to do something that is extremely hard to do. Um, tell me about how you managed to break free from Jeffrey Epstein and his abuse. And if you could after that, something that we talked about before this interview was um, how there is a common misconception that survivors of sexual abuse are broken forever. And so I think after telling me about how you broke free from Jeffrey Epstein, tell me about how you have healed from this awful situation.
>> So I was so traumatized after it happened. I didn't go back. I was raped by him once in 1991. And what I will hear from people is like, "Oh, well, other people went back." And I I think that we need to clarify something. I didn't go back because I was a I was so traumatized. I was a child sexual abuse survivor. Why did other girls go back? Because they were really traumatized and they were child sexual abuse survivor. It's both. I have not met a single Epstein survivor or any adult really of sexual harm that wasn't didn't also experience sexual assault as children. And that's a really important point for people to know. Even the girl that brought me, I would later on learn that she was sexually abused at a very young age of two, two years old. And so um when people are trying to blame and cast blame on um victims, which I still hear, I think we should really focus on the sex buyers and the pedophiles. That's who is to blame. The co-conspirators, the the sex buyers, and the pedophiles, uh, and the enablers. I think that's incredibly important for people to understand. I really, um, I don't even a lot of those recruiters, the girls that are labeled as recruiters, we're still in that same toxic narcissistic um, pattern of of living based on childhood abuse. So that's an important um distinction for people to understand. I also happen to have an incredible trauma therapist. And when I started doing trauma therapy, one of the things that uh we targeted was that my body has a response to trauma. It's very physical. I freeze. I can freeze up uh when I'm very activated or triggered by something. I am stuck in a in a functional freeze where I'm dissociated or I am literally on a couch and incapacitated by my emotions for hours or days. And so therapy wasn't just about let's talk about it. Therapy involved somatic experiencing. It involved brain spotting. It involved EFT um emotional freedom technique which is tapping. It involved music therapy. It involved a lot of what they call bottom up therapies that helped me deal with how my body was reacting rather than just talking about top- down theories which was just talking about what happened. It's very very different and it and that's a really important distinction for people to understand when they're looking for a therapist. And I would I would say I haven't healed but I am healing and I am thriving now. And that is an important distinction because what that event did for me back in July 9th, 1991 was I became a shell of myself. Uh because I really believe that if anything had ever happened, um I would I would I would be able to protect myself. I would be able to fight him off. I I I believe nothing could happen to me because I was strong, physically strong and emotionally strong and mentally strong. I would be able to fight. But that's the body has different ideas, right? So I lost a sense of trust in myself and who I believed I was in the world at a really crucial age of 22 years old when you're launching into the world as a new adult. It's a critical time in development. And I I cowered and uh became like I said a m a a shell of myself and I call call it kind of like a mouse of a girl in comparison to who I was becoming. And what I've learned from healing is that I'm getting so much closer back to that 22-year-old girl who was brave and bold and who knew how to stand up for themselves. That's what healing has done. So, it's a continuous journey, but I'm bridging that 30-year gap from what I became to who I was.
Jess, if you could send a message to girls that are currently experiencing what you did and they were wondering how they could seek help or wondering how they could follow in your footsteps of healing, what would your message be?
>> Well, first they should download my app with you. It's called #withyou2 and it's we're in public beta testing right now because in it is a 90day um a 90-day protocol for the supporters of a survivor because what we know about trauma um researcher Peter Lavine says trauma is not just the event it's the absence of an empathetic witness and what survivors that are listening to me need to know and find is an empathetic witness who will be there with them to help calm their nervous system, make them feel safe, and um hold their hand while they call a crisis center. Hold their hand while they find a therapist, a good trauma therapist. hold their hand as a peer and as a supporter while they go reach out to strangers like crisis centers or advocates or hotlines or therapists or counselors or support groups so that they don't have to do it all alone. They actually have someone with them that is that bridge to getting other help.
Before we end this interview, Jess, I just want to commend you on behalf of our audience for being able to turn such a tragic event into something so beautiful, into something so positive, um, into something that can help other people. I think that's I think it's absolutely amazing and I and I think it's so admirable. So, thank you so much for joining me today and um you you were absolutely fantastic. Thank you for your testimony.
>> Jackson. Thank you so much for having me and thank you so much for being a leader for young men and being someone that will sit with and listen to a sexual assault survivor story with empathy and non-judgment and and being willing to center that story. uh while we're doing this interview. It truly is admirable and I'm really honored to have been here with you today. Thank you.
>> I'm honored that you were here. I'm just I'm so honored that you were here. That that's all I have to say and and I'm honored that you would sit down and talk to me. So, um thank you so much.
>> Thanks, Jackson.