Transcription
So the slower one breathes, the more parasympathetic they are. If we can uh increase our CO2 tolerance, then we can breathe less, which is, in theory, and really, from the research, uh, increases our lifespan. So the less you breathe, the longer you live. The less you breathe, the more parasympathetic your nervous system becomes. The less you breathe, the less oxidation takes place in your body, which accelerates the aging process. So breathing slow actually enhances um lifespan and quality of life.
I'm Garrett Salpeder, and I believe that the most powerful and transformative way to help people recover from pain and injury, heal from trauma, and reach their highest levels of fitness and performance is to focus on the nervous system. In this podcast, we'll share knowledge from the frontiers of neuroscience and inspirational stories of how applying that knowledge has empowered people from all walks of life to heal, adapt, and grow.
Hello, New Fit Nation. I'm here with Dr. Sachin Patel, and today we're going to go deep on one of my favorite topics, which is breath work. He's also an expert in various elements of functional medicine and metabolic health. Dr. Patel is the founder and CEO of the Living Proof Institute, which is more of his patient-facing work, and then also the Precision Wellness Practice, which is more practitioner-facing, where he teaches and coaches practitioners, mostly in the realm of functional medicine and how to implement programs, including one called the Living Light Metabolic Health Program. He trains practitioners on how to implement this with their patients. So he is an expert on metabolic health and breath work. Of course, the two are very related, right? We need to breathe appropriately to have a healthy metabolism. He is also a published author, and uh, he's got a few books here, and we're going to, we're going to talk about his work. He's taught at Essentia along with a couple of other guests that we've had on here. I've shared a little bit about my experience there, and I, the reason I'm so excited to have him on is because I have gotten to participate in two breath work experiences that he has facilitated. Sachin is a masterful breath work guide, facilitator, practitioner, and we got to talk most recently at the Consumer Health Summit a few weeks ago. We were together in Phoenix at this wonderful mastermind, and I got to hear him share his perspective and teaching on breath, and it was just so, so wonderful, and I know it's worth a conversation. So Sachin, thank you for joining us and welcome to the New Fit Podcast, Undercurrent Podcast.
>> Garrett, thank you. What a beautiful introduction, and and it's so wonderful to get to spend this time with you and your community talking about something that I hope everyone becomes more passionate about, and certainly uh, as passionate as I should have been many years ago, just to even get the ball rolling. Uh, breath has really changed my life, and I'm grateful for any opportunity to help others do the same.
>> That's awesome. Can, can you tell us a little bit, so we have a sense of where you're coming from, a little bit of your origin story, how you got into first functional medicine in the first place, and then also how you, what inspired you to go so deep on the topic of breath and breath work?
>> Yeah, I caught the pun there. What inspired you? Uh, so many great breath work puns, by the way. Uh, you know, so I, I'm trained traditionally as a chiropractor. Feels like another lifetime ago because I've been in practice for over 20 years now. And I've actually, you know, it's funny. People uh, kind of judge you or or think about your knowledge base based on your designation that you got 20 years ago, but you actually learn the most working with people. So that's should be what people are more interested in is, uh, you know, how much experience somebody has and how much they evolve afterwards. So I feel like chiropractic was a wonderful stepping stone for me because it gave me the belief that the body can heal itself. There's innate wisdom and intelligence inside all of us. And then functional medicine, uh, was something that, you know, was kind of thrust upon me because I had a whole influx of patients after being on the news, and I didn't know how to help them. So, they had major chronic complicated health conditions like autoimmunity, thyroid dysfunction, fibromyalgia, uh, and a variety of what I would at the time say untreatable and incurable conditions. And they had tried everything. And then they saw me on the news talking about elbow pain for our chiropractic office. Uh, and they, for whatever reason, called, and I couldn't help any of them. So, I started um, turning them down. But I also didn't know where to refer them, which is kind of heartbreaking as a practitioner when you don't know where to send people and you just have to imagine them continuing to struggle with their problem. But then I got an email that changed my life, and it was about functional medicine, and a chiropractor named Dr. Ron Garanti was sharing case studies of people that I was turning down, people with psoriasis, other autoimmune conditions like that. And as I started reading his case studies, I'm like, "Oh, I can do this for my clients." And so I became trained in functional medicine in 2006, and that changed my perspective and how I look at clients. Functional medicine, for some people that might know, can get complicated very quickly. And in 2018, um, I came across a quote from Leonardo da Vinci, and he said that "Sophist simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." So, simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. And that kind of stuck with me because I saw my practice moving in the direction of complexity and testing moving in the direction of complexity, and solutions therefore have to move in the direction of complexity. And I'm like, what if the answer was actually quite simple? What if the answer was right under our noses? H and it turns out it is. And so in 2020, I went to, or 2019 rather, I went to a Wim Hof training. I was invited to by my friend Jordan. And during that experience, I just had like a, what I would describe as a mystical experience. And I was able to push my body in ways I didn't even know was possible. And I tried all these, you know, radical breathing techniques. And then afterwards, I was able to hold my breath for about three and a half minutes. And I was able to jump in a cold pool, and it didn't phase me, and dry myself off using the my own heat that my body was generating through breathing and movement. And I just felt alive. There was something, you know, um, I think there's, well, I know this, there's a part of us, every one of us listening to this, that's asleep right now. There are genes in our body that are dormant because our environment is not calling to express them. So when we put our body through different stressors or stimulations or or environments, a part of us wakes up that we didn't even know existed. So this happens when you do breath work. When you breathe a certain way, in a way you've never breathed before, there's a message that your breath is sending to your body. There's an environment in your body that's shifting and changing that's activating and turning on genes and dormant, uh, you know, code inside of you that you've never activated before. So a new part of you wakes up that you've never met before. And so that experience was my experience with breath work. Part of me that I didn't know existed woke up. Right? It's like Tony Robbins says, "Awaken the giant within." And so part of my giant, uh, had woken up. And the person who's doing the breath work is now my good friend and mentor, Giovanni Bartoo. He started inviting me to other events and other experiences. And then, um, he developed a technique called Elemental Rhythm, which is what you experienced, Garrett. And once he shared that with me, I was able to offer, he offered it to me, and I was able to witness my first few breaths again, my parents holding me in their arms, like, you know, looking at me in amazement. And, you know, while we might not consciously remember those experiences, they're somewhere in our body. They're somewhere in our brain. And so again, waking up parts of me that were dormant also wakes up part of your brain that's dormant, and it, it allows us to experience things that we've, uh, experienced in the past again. And so as soon as I had that experience, I wanted to offer it to others. So I became trained as a breath work facilitator. And then I started connecting a whole bunch of dots from my anatomy background, my chiropractic background, my sports medicine background, my functional medicine background, and my breathing background now. And that really awoke, awakened a part inside of me, uh, spiritually, to to really spread this message far and wide. So for me, this is more than, you know, um, an experience that I curate for other people and education that I curate for other people. Uh, part of it really awakens a part of me that, uh, just really lights me up. So, thank you for asking that question, and I know I gave a long-winded answer, but I hope that helps give people some context.
>> I love that description, and you actually inspired me to pivot and go in a slightly different direction here, where you talk about connecting the dots between breathing and sports medicine, functional medicine, spirituality. What are some of the biggest dots that you've connected there? And part of why I ask is that many people listening to this at least know how important breathing and the associated metabolic health is for healing, how it's relevant for pain and such. However, many people on the street, in the general population, don't even know the the connections at all. So I'm curious to see what stands out to you as those biggest dots that you connected along the journey.
>> Yeah, that's a great question. You know, so through my experience with my own family, my son and my wife, uh, and even myself, uh, one of the things I realized firsthand is how our the way we breathe shapes our face. The way we breathe shapes our sinuses, the way we breathe shapes our jaw. And so there's structural implications of how we breathe. The way we breathe influences how well we detox. 70% of our detoxification takes place through the lungs. Our lymphatic, uh, system, some of the biggest lymph nodes are underneath our diaphragm. So, how we breathe is is gently pumping our lymph. How we breathe is also pumping our trunk organs. How we breathe is communicating our emotions. How we breathe is creating a pharmacy of, uh, neurochemicals in our body. So breathing a certain way changes our internal chemistry. Breathing regulates our pH. It's the most potent way we regulate the pH of our blood. So breathing is connected to virtually every system that we're trying to fix, um, separately, right? Because you can separately address all those things. However, the most important thing that breathing impacts is our nervous system. So we have an autonomic nervous system, which is, you know, loosely divided into two branches: the fight or flight branch, which is where most people are stuck, and the rest and digest branch. And one thing I learned many years ago is that the only way somebody can heal, and not only heal, but heal every cell, tissue, organ, and system in their body simultaneously, is if they're in a parasympathetic state. In that parasympathetic state is where all of our healing and regeneration, digestion, reproduction, all of those things take place. When our body is properly balanced with sympathetic and parasympathetic states, if we run too sympathetic dominant, then we end up, uh, unfortunately, our body is good at breaking things down. It's not good at building things up. It's not good at repair. It's good at escaping or fighting, but it's not good at repairing. And so breath is the bridge between the fight or flight state, where we can actively breathe into a, in, in our bodies in a way that shifts us into that parasympathetic state. Now, I know many people who have no stress, right? But the way they breathe is communicating stress to their body. So breathing is a two-way street. As an example, if somebody sat down next to you on a bus and they could barely catch their breath, what state do you think their nervous system is in?
>> Clearly sympathetic.
>> Sympathetic, right? And if somebody sat down next to you and they were calm and, you know, breathing into their belly, barely, you know, inaudibly breathing, you'd probably assume that that person is in a parasympathetic state, where they're in a rest and digest type state. When we realize that there's a spectrum, so we're all somewhere on that spectrum, and throughout the day, where we are on that spectrum is going to change. But we want to come back to being more parasympathetic. So by doing something as simple as slowing down your breath, placing your tongue in the roof of your mouth, breathing in for a count of four, out for a count of six, and gently holding your breath at the bottom of it, you can dramatically improve the function of every system in your body simultaneously, essentially for free. And there's overwhelming science to back everything up that I just said. So, you know, if anyone's familiar with the literature or even familiar with anatomy or physiology, none of this should surprise them. But it's when you connect all the dots and you start realizing, wow, this one thing can impact a hundred things in my body and determines whether I'm going to get better or not. I mean, that's where we should all be starting. A disregulated nervous system will never heal. It doesn't matter what supplements you take. Doesn't matter how many labs you run. There's people that have horrible labs but regulated nervous systems and they feel perfectly fine. And there's people that have perfect labs and horribly disregulated nervous systems and they wonder why they feel terrible all the time.
>> I, I like that you talk about how that's the bridge into the autonomic nervous system. When we were together last, you also used the metaphor of describing the breathing as the steering wheel for the nervous system. Kind of
>> turn it or nudge it or guide it into different states there, which I loved. And then you mentioned one of several breath practices that you teach people to implement, that being four in, six out. And
>> there's going to be, there's going to be a few more. So I just want to call that out because we're going to come back to talking about some specific tactics. But first, I would like to go a little more into the breathing physiology and share some, some wonderful education here so that we're all even more motivated by understanding the context and the reasons why these breathing practices are so impactful. I think we'll all be more motivated to be consistent and actually implement them. So,
>> sure. Sure.
>> One of the things that I, that I find really fascinating that I'd love to hear you speak about is the physiology. You mentioned pH, the physiology generally of carbon dioxide, and how misunderstood carbon dioxide is because people hear, oh, too much is toxic, and we exhale to get it out. So they think we want to get rid of all of it. But really, too little can be just as bad as too much, and CO2 actually has value. So, can you, can you teach us about this very, very misunderstood molecule?
>> Yeah, certainly. And I think you're going to be, everyone's going to be hearing a lot more about CO2. Generally, when we hear about CO2, it's associated with global warming, right? Or changes in the environment. And that's, we think of it as causing a problem, and it's a messenger. So CO2 is what causes the urge for us to breathe. And when it's not needing more oxygen, it's our inability to tolerate CO2 levels. So that kind of begs the question, what happens when our CO2 levels go up? Our CO2 levels, when they increase, actually allow more oxygen to be dumped at the tissue level. And this is actually a great mechanism because imagine somebody were to stop breathing. We would want them, as their CO2 levels increase, there's no more oxygen coming in, but there's oxygen in the blood, and the body will extract, or the, the red blood cells will dump more of their oxygen. So that person actually has about four or five breaths worth in every breath that they consume. So it actually can save our life in many ways because our mitochondria die after five seconds without oxygen. So they're very sensitive to, and that's why like at five minutes, like that's the end for most people because there's no more oxygen in their tissue. But CO2 is going up, and it's going to dump as much oxygen to the tissue level that it can. Now, this is important because if we want to, on command, increase our oxygenation of our brain or our body, our tissue, then we can actually breathe in a certain way that causes our CO2 levels to go up in a controlled way, and we can actually build tolerance to CO2. So we can actually improve oxygenation. See, so I want to go back a couple of steps. There's, um, research that shows the slower we breathe, the longer we live. Okay? So if you look at a turtle, a turtle takes about three, four breaths a minute, lives about 200 years. A dog takes about 35 breaths a minute, you know, ages about seven times faster, they say. So in Eastern philosophy, we're born with a certain number of breaths. In Western philosophy, we're born with a certain number of heartbeats. When we slow down our breath, it usually means we shift into a parasympathetic state. Okay? So the slower one breathes, the more parasympathetic they are. If we can, uh, increase our CO2 tolerance, then we can breathe less, which is, in theory, and really, from the research, uh, increases our lifespan. So the less you breathe, the longer you live. The less you breathe, the more parasympathetic your nervous system becomes. The less you breathe, the less oxidation takes place in your body, which accelerates the aging process. So breathing slow actually enhances, um, lifespan and quality of life. In the Framingham study, they found that lung capacity was the greatest predictor of lifespan. So if you know, and that makes sense because we need breath, right? Breath is a life force. And if you ever see someone take their last few breaths, you know, if that person could breathe better, they would be able to oxygenate their body better, right? People can live for a long time when a machine is doing all the breathing for them, right? That's so, so metabolically important for for life. So the quest is for, if you want to become a better breather, one, you have to know what your CO2 tolerance score is. We can actually demonstrate that through something called a control pause. And then you want to have a strategy to increase your CO2 tolerance. When we become more tolerant to CO2, we also become more tolerant to stress and anxiety. You see, when we're in fight or flight, guess what? We're making more CO2. And so the more tolerant we, we can become to CO2, the more tolerant we become to stress. Right? See, the ultimate flex of your nervous system is to be calm in a storm. Right? That's where we make our best decision-making. That's where we have our best decision-making. So if you can use your breath to induce more calm, and you could increase CO2 and increase oxygenation, guess what? You become way better at problem-solving, too. Right? The, it's, it's during moments of stress where we make the poorest decisions.
>> Yeah, that is is beautifully said. I, I like the metaphor of the eye of the hurricane. There can be all this activity, stress, whatever of whatever type happening around us, and yet we can stay calm and centered and act from that place. And one other thing you said a few minutes ago, you were describing how CO2 actually enables the release of oxygen from red blood cells, oxygen to be delivered to the body. So, we'll just, I can't, I don't know if you mentioned or not. It's called the, the Bohr effect, B-O-A-R, like Neil's Bohr, Bohr, in case anyone's interested in that. And there's, there's something particularly elegant about that that I just want to mention to piggyback on what you said, which is wherever there's, there's metabolic activity, carbon dioxide is released as the byproduct of the chemical reactions that are used for creating ATP, right? Creating energy.
>> And, and so there's going to be more CO2 in areas in tissues that are more metabolically active at any one moment in time. And so that greater amount of CO2 is going to cause greater amounts of oxygen to be released in those areas where it's needed most. So it allows for this very elegant mechanism for partitioning the oxygen that's in the blood so it can be delivered where it's needed most. So I really, I really like that. Just wanted to piggyback on to something that you said there.
>> Yeah, that's a, that's a great perspective. I love that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna share that and give you credit because it's a wonderful way for the body to manage resources, right? We don't, if we can target where that CO2 goes and where we can dump more oxygen, I mean, how beautiful, how how intelligent.
>> It is. It's really amazing. And I love your description there of CO2 tolerance, connecting that with stress and anxiety, connecting that with the state of the autonomic nervous system. You also mentioned the control pause. So since since you mentioned that, can you please, you mentioned that as being the primary way to actually measure this for ourselves so we can track it, see where we're starting, if we're working on it, see make sure that it's improving, that what we're doing is working. So can you teach us please about the control pause and what that actually is?
>> Yeah, sure. So this was originally developed by, uh, Constantine Bouteco, famous for something called Bouteco breathing, and Bouteco breathing is essentially breathing less versus breathing more, generally put. And one of the things that that you can do is call is do a control pause, or it's also known as a body oxygen level test. And it's really simply done. It's best done first thing in the morning before you're up and moving around. So, if you're up and you've already been moving around and listening to this, then you could do the test just to get familiar with it, but it's best done when you're at rest. So, basically, you would just breathe normally, couple of breaths, just conscious breaths in and out, and then you would inhale and then do a relaxed exhale. So, what that means is you're not blowing the air out, you're just naturally letting the air out of your lungs. And then you're going to plug your nose. You plug your nose, and you're, the test is over, and you start your stopwatch and start timing yourself. And the test is over the moment you feel the first urge to breathe. Now, it's not a breath-hold test. So, we're not seeing how long you can hold your breath, but you just want to pay attention to, do I have this strong urge to breathe? Usually, it might be, you swallow. That usually is an indication, or your diaphragm starts to quiver, and that's when you know the test is over. Now, you can probably hold your breath much longer than that, uh, which is fine, but that's not, that's not what this test is for. You're going to document that time. So, anything less than 10 seconds is severe breathing dysfunction. Uh, anything less than 20 seconds is breathing dysfunction. Somewhere between 20 and 40, we're going to say mild breathing dysfunction. And we want to be able to get to 40 seconds or higher. And what, uh, Constantine Bouteco would say is that anyone who can hold their control pause or their Bolt test for 60 seconds or more, no disease can exist in their body because their tolerance to CO2 is so high, and their body is humming along and tolerant to stressors and such that, uh, no disease can exist. So that's something to keep in mind as well. And we know from the research that, you know, the way we breathe, metabolically, you know, if you think of something that's metabolically very active, you start thinking of cancer cells. Cancer cells are very metabolically active. And so, you know, anything that we can do to manage our metabolic function better, manage our immune system better, I, I mean, breath does all of those things for us.
>> So that is the easiest and most probably consistent, repeatable way to test our ability to tolerate CO2, which of course, we've already established is important. We'll talk a little bit more about why that is and reinforce even more, dig deeper on the value of CO2. I'm also curious from a testing perspective. Do you ever look at blood test results? Because when I get my regular blood panels, you know, two, three times a year, there is a CO2 level on there. And so I, I wonder and I'm curious about that. And I know Dr. Dr. Bouteco talks about how certain blood, certain control pause times correlate with blood levels. Is that something that you ever look at or think about, or is there any, anything that we should consider from that perspective?
>> Yeah, it's a good question. To be honest, it's not something we, we pay a lot of attention to, um, unless it's significantly out of balance, which we don't see that often. Uh, at least in our practice, we don't. Um, so we're not managing based on that. We're typically, when we look at control pause, uh, scores, so like the Bolt score, that's something that we're working on with the client, getting them to measure and give us consistent feedback because the CO2 is oftentimes, uh, any blood work is really a spot in time. It's a moment in time, and it doesn't always paint the full picture for somebody. So we, we try to look for short feedback loops when it comes to their breathing that can tell us if there's improvement. So the Bolt score is a really easy, uh, way for them to measure. An incentive spirometer is another way to measure if their breathing is improving. Um, we also do something, there's ways to increase, uh, CO2 tolerance, like a prolonged exhale, which is taking a deep breath and exhaling for as long as you possibly can. So timing and measuring that, those are the things that we're typically paying attention to. That's, uh, measuring their improvements in respiration and breathing. And then with, uh, with our clients, they also get an Oura ring. So the Oura ring is telling us about their HRV. It's also telling us about their respiratory rate. And it's looking at resilience. So it's looking at their stress levels related to their recovery levels from day to day. And that type of data is what we typically pay attention to when it comes to helping them improve and optimize breathing. So that's another angle in addition to the control pause or the Bolt score, the body oxygen level, both of which you mentioned there. That, that's a really good thought. I, I use the Whoop rather than the Oura ring, but for those of us who have something that gives us our respiration rate at night during sleep, do you have the correlation or what do, what do you look at in terms of breathing rates? What's the equivalent of the control pause being 20 or below is is bad. 20 to 40 is okay but needs work. 40 and above is good. What's, what are the equivalent levels on respiratory rate readings that we might see on our wearables?
>> Yeah, you know, it's a good question. Um, I don't know the answer to that specifically, like, you know, 10 versus 20 versus 30 versus 40. Uh, but I would imagine that the person who has a low tolerance to CO2 is going to breathe more.
>> And that's just a general, I mean, that's, you're typically what you're going to see. Even if you pay attention to like daytime breathing, the person that has lower CO2 tolerance is, is, for the most part, going to be over-breathing.
>> And unfortunately, when you over-breathe, you actually, uh, increase the concentration of CO2 because you don't clear it out of the bottom of your lungs. And so this is why teaching people how to breathe when they think they need to breathe more, it's paradoxical. They actually need to breathe better, and usually that means by breathing less. Thank you so much for listening to the Undercurrent Podcast. If you're interested in learning more about how New Fit and the Newbie can impact your life, please visit our website at www.new.fit, that's N-E-U. So you can learn more about how it might integrate into your professional practice, how you can use it as a patient, and you can also connect with our team there.
>> On, on this topic of respiration rate, I've, I've only talked ever to one person about this and who, who had some insights on that, and that's Andy Galpin. And he talked about how they track this with their athletes. He does some really sophisticated testing with wearables, with blood tests, correlating all sorts of performance metrics, with consulting clients that pay tens of thousands of dollars a year. And he talked about the, I think the cutoff was around, and this is at, at night during sleep, the cutoff on a Whoop ring was like, you know, below, I'm going to be very close, I apologize if I'm not totally accurate, but I think it was below 13 breaths per minute was good. 13 to 14 was sort of the okay, and then 14 and above was like an alarm, you know, alarm bells going off, problematic. And of course, that is during the day. I think Bouteco and, and you, Sachin, could tell us, you know, we want to be breathing, if we're at rest, more like six, you know, closer to probably half that per minute. Uh, but during, during sleep, in the position that we're in, we're not able, we don't have as much room to expand and contract. So it's a different standard. But it was interesting to hear Andy Galpin talk about that, how they were able to correlate with those that respiration rate value with states of recovery and repair and, uh, heart rate variability, resting heart rate. They were able to correlate that, and that was, I think that those were the numbers. Those were approximately the cutoffs that he was looking at. So something, something to pay attention to for those of us who have these various wearable devices.
>> Yeah. No, that's really good. You know, I, I think of a client. So, um, one of the first things, you know, he came to us for was was cholesterol type issues. And I was very interested in his stress levels. And so, we looked at his breathing. And, you know, he's got, you know, not he doesn't have your typical stressors, let's say. So his financially he's good, relationships are good, business is good, all that stuff, but his respiratory rate was 17. And he would tell me he's got no stress. And I'm like, well, something's stressing your body out, right? It doesn't always have to be the, the typical things that we think about. And that was quite, you know, interesting because the respiratory rate was really telling us about the state his nervous system was in, more leaning towards sympathetic. And that would, you know, naturally raise his cholesterol because he needs more cholesterol to make more stress hormones. And then the other thing that we look at is where people start and where they get to. And it can take some time unless you're really consciously working on your breath for your breath to come down, respiratory rate to come down on its own. You know, as we lose weight, as we have less visceral fat, there's less, uh, resistance for our diaphragm to, you know, to pump and, and to go through its full range of motion. So losing weight will definitely help, but we have to actively be engaging in slowing down our breathing during the day because how we breathe during the day will, you know, there's a carryover effect into how we breathe at night. And, you know, I love what you said about positioning. So even considering the position that we're sleeping in can, can perhaps have an effect as well. Sleeping on our stomach versus our side versus our back can make it more challenging for us to breathe versus not.
>> Yes, for sure. So, I imagine people listening to this are like myself, being feeling motivated to want to increase their control pause time. And I want to talk about strategies for doing that. But first, one more point about CO2, just to further hit the point home about why it's important. So, one thing that I'd like to think about in this regard is, you listen to this, you likely know, if you've ever had or know someone who has had a panic attack, what's the first instruction that you get? It's breathe into a paper bag. Why do you do that? Because you exhale CO2, and then you, it's trapped in the bag, so you breathe it back in. So you end up increasing your stores of CO2, and that's having these benefits around the delivery of oxygen like Sachin already said. And I, I believe there's some direct effect of CO2 on, on nerve hypersensitivity. We want nerves to be appropriately sensitive so that they send off electrical signals, but not hypersensitive because that can cause runaway activity like a seizure or like a panic attack, that sort of thing. So I think that there is some mechanism by which, I recall reading about this along the way over the, over the last years, that that CO2 does have some mechanism for for calming neurological hypersensitivity. So Sachin, is, is there anything in particular there that you, that you, that you think about, or do you think that effect is more just generally based on circulation and, and metabolic health and energy delivery, sort of the main through line so far in terms of the benefits of CO2? What's your take on that breathing into a paper bag scenario?
>> Yeah, I mean, certainly you get increased blood flow, and you're going to get increased oxygenation as the CO2 level, uh, increases. And then, um, when you have situations like this where there's, uh, hypoxia, the, uh, as you mentioned, like the hyperexcitability of the nerves changes, and it reduces the sensations of burning and tingling for people. So there is, um, there is a lot of benefits to, you know, to doing something as simple as that.
>> Okay, so that's the mechanism. The mechanism isn't necessarily direct action of CO2 on nerves, but it's hypoxia interfering with nerve function, like likely in terms of having something that we can at least move forward with here. So by increasing oxygen delivery, you reduce hypoxia, and therefore the nerve functions in a, in a more healthy manner.
>> Right.
>> Okay, that, that makes sense. So now let's finally, we've been teasing it a little bit. Let's talk about ways to increase our CO2 tolerance. Now that we have hopefully have established beyond a reasonable doubt, to the legal standard here, the jury will find that increasing our CO2 tolerance is important. So you mentioned the Bouteco method is basically breathing less, and that's essentially going to be the, the spirit of it. So, what are your overall strategies and then top tactics for increasing our CO2 tolerance?
>> Yeah, it's a great question. So, first is the Bolt test. Just understanding where you are with the control pause, and then that helps you kind of manage, uh, expectations as well. Another really simple test that you can do is, uh, from a resting spot, standing in a, from a resting, uh, state, you basically take a, do a relaxed exhale, plug your nose, and count how many steps you can take. So, this is another way to test our, our CO2 tolerance along with, uh, the Bolt test. Now, when I work on improving my CO2 tolerance, I do a few really simple things. Every time I come to a traffic light, I take a deep breath and I exhale through my nose as slowly as I possibly can, and I time myself. So, I time how long it takes me to exhale. Or if I don't want to time myself, I just practice, uh, exhaling slowly for as long as I can. Okay? The time doesn't really matter. It's the fact that I'm doing it that's what's more important. So, don't feel like you have to have a stopwatch and you have to time yourself. Just do it. Exhale as slowly as you possibly can through a continuous stream of air through your nose. Okay. The other way you can increase CO2 is when you're out for a walk. You can breathe in for a count of four steps, breathe out for a count of six steps, and hold for a count of two steps. So, this will increase your CO2 levels, and then, uh, you're going to build your tolerance up that way. Another technique that you can do is as you're breathing normally, do a relaxed exhale, plug your nose, and take as many steps as you possibly can. You want to come up gasping for air. You want to hold for as many steps as you possibly can. Usually for most people while they're out for a walk, 30 is a really good number. I mean, most people may not get there right away, but, uh, you want to start, might be 10 to begin with, then 15, then 20. You'll see your, your tolerance starts building up so much quicker.
>> That's great. I love the, the breath holding or lengthening out breath cycles while walking. I often, if I'm on flat ground, I like to do eight step inhale, 16 step exhale. And then when I go up a hill, it's interesting to see how long I can keep that cadence going. And then as I'm going up the hill, I go six, 12, and then I end up going four, eight, and,
>> yeah,
>> it's, uh, a steep enough hill,
>> by the end of it. I'm, the other day I was at 44 by the end of it. It was really, really tough to keep up. But that was a,
>> and, and one, you know, one thing for, you know, we haven't really discussed is if you're breathing through your nose or through your mouth. Uh, so maybe that's worth, uh, mentioning at this time. So when you're out for a walk, when you're exercising, when you're sitting still, there's really three gears to breathing. And so, uh, if I'm sitting here, you know, during this conversation or sitting next to a friend or meeting a client or having coffee with somebody, so at rest or reading a book, at rest, I, I want to be breathing with my tongue in the roof of my mouth. So the front of my tongue sits behind my front teeth, and the rest of my tongue lays gently in the roof of my mouth. That position is very important because there's 84 meridian points in the roof of your mouth. So when your tongue lays there flat, it's almost like pressing these little buttons. It's like playing a piano. And these, uh, nerve points actually relax us. So this is why children suck their thumb or use a pacifier or latch onto their mother's breast because it actually pushes against that nerve bundle in the roof of their mouth. So this will instantly cause us to calm down. When your tongue is in that position, naturally, it will create a spacer, uh, to help create a nice upper palate. So if you have young children, and there, and even as adults, we can, uh, place our tongue in the roof of our mouth, and it'll start changing the shape of our face. It starts pushing everything outwards and forwards, allowing our jaw to properly develop and our sinuses to properly develop as well. And so the position of the tongue is very important, very often not discussed. And again, when our tongue is in that position, uh, it seals our mouth. So now it's allowing us to breathe naturally through our nose. When we breathe through our nose, it slows down the air. Our nose has 35 different functions, and some of them are to purify and condition the air, spiralize it, pressurize it, moisture regulate it, temperature regulate it before it goes into the lungs. So we primarily want to be breathing in and out through our nose. When we breathe in through our nose, we're filtering the air and preparing it for the lungs. And when we breathe out through our nose, we're also lengthening the exhale, right? It takes longer to breathe out through your nose versus breathing out through your mouth, which means you're going to build up your CO2 tolerance as well. So, breathing in and out through our nose slows down the air, perfects the air before it goes into the lungs, and then also conditions us to have a higher CO2 tolerance because it's slowing down the air, uh, before it goes out. That's the way we should be breathing most of the time. If you're looking for a number to count, it should be between four to six seconds in and four to six seconds out. It should feel to you like you're under-breathing a little bit. Okay? Not gasping for air, but hungry for air. That's how you know you're in the right state. From there, if you increase your exertion, you're going to try to maintain breathing in and out through your nose, but you might speed up that cadence, right? So if you're going for a walk, it might be three seconds in, three seconds out, depending on your level of activity and and CO2 tolerance. So that breathing pace will increase. And then from there, once you can no longer maintain that, then you're going to breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth. So in through the nose and out through the mouth, right? That allows us to let the CO2 escape much faster. And then if you go into a sprint, then you're going to breathe in and out through your mouth. Breathing in and out through your mouth rapidly will also help pump your heart. So it's going to help increase blood pressure, increase your heart rate physically. It's going to assist your heart in pumping more blood because you've got to pump more blood to your arms and legs, um, in order for you to escape or fight whatever is coming after you. So our body will immediately, uh, kind of respond in accordance to the way we're breathing. And then after that sprint, you're going to come down, breathe in through your nose, out through your mouth, and then once you're able to breathe in and out through your nose, and then go back to breathing slowly. So you can breathe like this in between exercise sets, fully recover from the set, fully recover your nervous system from the set. Uh, or you could use these breathing techniques as a steering wheel throughout the day. And just like you, when you're driving, right, I hope that you anticipate the turn, right? So you turn before the turn, not after the turn. And so if you're consciously breathing, then you can actually anticipate how you should be breathing before you go up the flight of steps, instead of losing your breath after you're at the, at the top of the flight of steps. If you use your breath correctly, you could have helped your body up. Instead, your body is now reacting to the change in, in metabolic activity that's required of it. So we can assist our body as we navigate throughout the day, um, by breathing correctly based on our exertion levels.
>> That's beautifully said. I encourage everybody to experiment that with experiment with that and to use it consistently. One thing that you said about the nose, I mean, it's fascinating. You talk about intelligence in the body. The way the nose warms and moistens and filters the air is amazing and likely understood by people listening to this. The, something that was new to me the first time I heard it, I was just sort of a wow moment, was you mentioned how the nose spiralizes the air. It's so fascinating how the, the structure of the sinuses has these little ridges in there. So as air comes through, it actually does spiralize. It gets into a pattern. And so it's the same reason that a, a bullet shot from a rifle, because it moves, or the, or a football being thrown in a spiral, is able to pierce through the air better and is more likely to find its target. The air can actually, when breathing in through the nose, not only do you get all the filtering that you miss if you breathe in through the mouth, but you also get that spiralizing effect. So the air can get deeper down into the lower lobes of the lungs, the lower portions of the lungs, where of course gravity pulls everything down, including blood. There's going to be more blood there, more ability to exchange oxygen and carbon dioxide. So I'm glad you mentioned that. That's just one thing that I thought it was worth another 30 seconds because I found it so fascinating.
>> Yeah, our bodies, our bodies are so amazing. And, and it's since we're talking about the nose, it's worth mentioning that that's where your immune system starts is in your nose. You know, we breathe 30 pounds of air a day. So we have more interaction with the outside world with our, our nose and our mouth and our lungs than we do with the, uh, digestive system. And so, uh, 30 pounds of air a day is, is no small.
number that has to has to go through this entire system and and again be perfected before it gets down there. What also happens when we breathe through our nose is we increase nitric oxide by about sixfold. So you get six times the more nitric oxide production uh when you breathe correctly through your nose. And nitric oxide is kind of our first defense natural defense system against bacteria, viruses and and pathogens. And when we breathe correctly, our nose is lined with nitric oxide and that actually acts as our initial defense and immune system against the outside world. So so many so many little benefits of breathing through our nose.
>> Yes.
>> Yet big benefits.
>> Yeah. Yes. I was going to say that seemingly little but compounded over 30,000 tens of thousands of breaths every day. It's a it's a big deal. or or much less than that now that we're learning to breathe less. Maybe we're going to go 30,000 down to down to 5,000. We're breathing very slow all day. Um and and to round out this topic, what are you've already you've touched on how breathing is the first domino, how breathing influences so many other systems and processes within the body. Are there any any success stories that jump to mind in terms of people who had certain issues, goals, diagnoses, challenges, and your primary intervention with them was breathing and then you saw introducing these air hunger exercises working on increasing control paws actually helped. I mean, what what jumps out? I know there's you see a lot of examples and and you you do this a lot and there's a reason you continue emphasizing it so much because you see success. What are some of the top just to give people a sense of what this can actually do in real life for real people? What are the the top few that come to mind?
Yeah, I mean one of my clients, so this is this is related to something we haven't talked about, but it's the first story that pops up is um his father passed away and his father passing away uh was obviously very tragic, but his sisters can see their father in their dreams. So they all have conversations with their father in their dreams and he unfortunately doesn't dream at night and so they'll be sharing stories about conversations that they've had. It's it's it's quite fascinating. Uh and he's like, "Oh my god, I I never dream. I want to dream again." And so we started working on his nighttime breathing, slowing down his breath, slowing down his nervous system, right? shifting states from being parasympathe or sympathetic dominant during the day as a business owner and then shifting into that uh more parasympathetic state, you know, breathing into the future, right, instead of reacting to it and mouth taping at night. And this ties back to nasal breathing. So, it got him breathing through his nose, increases nitric oxide, and now he's starting to dream again. So, the dreams have started. we're waiting for the first conversation to start. But you know there's a lot of consolidation that takes place in the brain. Um and that's indicated by the dreams that we have. And so dreaming is really a sign of good health, brain health. And so that's one story that comes to mind.
Another story that comes to mind is a client who had debilitating brain fog. And after two days, just simply two days of mouth taping and conscious breathing, uh her brain fog was able to completely disappear. And she had tried so many things, taken so many different supplements, seen so many different experts, ran all kinds of labs, but you know, metabolically, anything that requires energy requires metabolic function. And we know that the mitochondria after 5 seconds without, you know, oxygen, they don't function anymore. And we have trillions upon trillions of mitochondria. So if something as simple as just slowing down h how much we breathe, placing our tongue in the correct position, anticipating uh and supporting our body and breathing correctly. I mean, what could be simpler, right? It's just so fun that it has such a profound effect. And it's again the simplicity and the sophistication all tied into one.
That's those are great great examples. Not what I might have guessed out of the gate, but that's why I asked the question. So, that was very good. Very good. So, as we as we wind down here, I want to give you a chance to share a couple more tools for how breath can be that steering wheel that we can use in certain contexts and settings. I also as a related question want to talk about you mentioned going to Wimhof. So the Wimhof breathing for example is is is an extreme version of hyperventilating acutely temporarily and then there's other breathing practices like in the breath work session that you led last time we were together a few weeks ago. There were phases of over breathing intentionally hyperventilating for a period of time and then there were some breath holes and things like that. How does one reconcile doing those activities which clearly are hyperventilation? Reconcile that with what you've told us about how hyperventilation is bad and the bout method wants us breathing less and we need to build up our CO2 tolerance. So can you just talk to us about that for a moment? that tension.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's really more about the intent and the consciousness around it. So, if you're doing intentional hyperventilation to create an altered state, um I think that's fine because it's very short-lived, right? It's it's a contained stressor. So, we call that hormmesis. Uh just like going into a cold plunge, you go for a period of time. It's a controlled stressor. Too much of it would be bad, right? And same thing with a sauna. You can't live in the sauna. So you get the right amount, create the right activation of of response and then you back out. So hyperventilation can be used as a as a technique uh to create an altered state and to also you know work on you know developing our breathing practice. But if you were doing that all day it would be a problem right? So most people are at a at rest they're over breathing and that's what we really want to draw consciousness to. You know people ask me you know Sachin what's your bre what's your breath work practice thinking I'm going to tell them I have like five minutes in the morning that I set aside and I just sit in the corner and and you know I meditate or do intense breathing. I actually don't emphasize that. What I emphasize is how you're breathing right now and now and now. Right? Not that you did breath work in the morning at 10:00 and then you're or for 10 minutes and then you're completely unconscious about how you're breathing the rest of the day. Right? The real benefits are in how you're breathing when you're not doing breath work. That's what really shapes us, right? So that's, you know, when our tongue is resting in the roof of our mouth, that changes the shape of our face. But if we only do that for 10 minutes a day, it's not enough. Right? And so, same thing, our lymphatic system, we don't want to just pump it for 10 minutes in the morning and then shallow breathe the rest of the day. I want my lymphatics working for me 24/7. So, you know, and I want I want to be in control of my nervous system. So, really, it's how we're breathing throughout the day that's that that's really where the value is. And you know, occasionally if you're doing once a month or once a week or once a quarter, whatever that cadence is where you're doing prolonged breath work experiences like what you and I did together, um that's not something we prescribe on a daily basis to people. It's really more about how are you breathing throughout the day that's most important to us. It's kind of like, you know, now we're discovering that sitting is the, you know, I mean, not it's not new to you, but certainly they say sitting is the is the new smoking. So people exercise for an hour in the morning and then they sit all day. Studies show that it's actually better if they had that same amount of concentrated movement. If they spread it out throughout the day, it'd actually be better for them, right? So how we distribute the stressors uh or distribute movement and activity and awareness in our body, I think it's better if we distribute it across and throughout the day versus just concentrations.
>> Yeah, that's a great a great insight there. that connecting that movement. I think of movement as a nutrient. We want to make sure that we're getting the right type of food, like we're getting the right type of movement, and we need to have it frequently enough. Of course, there's times for intermittent fasting and things like that, but generally speaking, we want to be getting that nutrition frequently enough. And so, it's the the types and quantity and frequency of movement are really like that. And that's a great I hadn't hadn't thought of breathing that way, too. the breath work practice compared to the way we're doing it all day long. So, that probably is one of the best answers to what are some of the the remaining tactics and such that you want to share. One one other thing I do want to mention just on the on the formal breath work practice doing that acute hyperventilation. It was so interesting for me because I felt out of breath, you know, of course when I'm or doing those for extended per for minutes at a time. I felt fatigued in the same way as I do when I'm when I'm working hard, when I'm out sprinting or when I was playing hockey at the end of a shift. And it made me think about some of the research on how diaphragm fatigue actually influences global fatigue through central drive me neurological mechanisms in the brain. And it also did help me see that connection of how doing some breath work can actually help with function, strength and endurance of the diaphragm. And there there can be some value in that for an athletic or or stamina endurance performance context as well. So just one other little piece to throw into the mix for consideration.
>> Yeah, you know the diaphragm is a very interesting muscle as as I mentioned earlier. It's the one muscle in our body we have control over that passively is working for us 24/7. Uh it's really I look at it as a little pharmacy inside of us because uh how we how we breathe creates a a breathing signature that's as unique to us as our fingerprint. So, uh, you know, the way somebody breathes is is kind of a window into the state of their nervous system. Just like the eyes are a window into the soul, the breath is a window into the into the way their nervous system is functioning. And the diaphragm is also known as a second heart because it helps the heart pump blood. U, and then it's also referred to as kind of the seed of our emotions. And so, if we think about how we express emotions, we usually express them with a form of breathing. Crying is a form of breathing. Laughing is a form of breathing. Gasping is a form of breathing. Sighing is a form of breathing. Right? So, a lot of our emotions are conveyed through uh the way we breathe. And these breathing signatures or these um are again clue us in into the state somebody's in. And so, the diaphragm is just a powerful tool that we have at our disposal. We can change the way we feel. There's something called laughing yoga for example where you just go through the motions of laughing you know you go through the breathing cadence of laughing if you will and within a few minutes you have the chemistry of somebody who's happy right? you do physiologic size and then you within a few minutes you have the chemistry of somebody who's calm right or you know I did a I did a breathing practice just recently at at uh at an event and we had people look at their resting heart rate and we had them measure just from a few different breathing techniques how their resting heart rate changed, right? So, we have far more control over our body than we might think and and really the the diaphragm is at the center of all of that. It also helps with posture. It helps with pumping the lymph. It helps with you know acting as a piston to move the organs up and down. And uh you know I I heard an interesting fact that our every with every breath we take our kidneys move about five inches. And so multiply five inches by 23,000 breaths that we take. It's uh quite remarkable how far our our organs travel in a day just because of that upward and downward motion of the diaphragm.
>> Wow. That's a that's a significant distance for the kidneys. So that
>> those renal arteries
>> getting all right
>> getting worked out. Yeah. And and so you think about it, right? somebody who I mean that that helps keep things our our blood vessels pliable right they're because they're moving right and you know our there's a there's a part that we didn't talk about called the myofascial system which clearly your audience would be familiar with which is like a a network of fibers that run through our body that act as our emotional hard drive. So a lot of our uh emotions are stored in our body in our myofascial system and breathing especially the diaphragm kind of works at awakening that system and and providing an opportunity to release uh you know emotional pain that we have stored in our tissues.
>> That's awesome. So we we generally want less breathing during the day. Various methods to work on that with air air hunger drills with walking, lengthening out the exhale. There's times where we want acute hyperventilation to get the diaphragm moving to laugh. There's uh it could be like strength training for the diaphragm. It can be emotional >> emotionally freeing and moving there. So there's some some wonderful stuff here. I I feel I feel inspired. So as we as we actually wind down here. Sachin, what are the the best ways for people to find you online, social media, all the different different places that uh that they can see you and your work?
>> Yeah. Well, thanks for asking and and thanks for thanks for such a great conversation. I learned a lot. And you know, I I wanted to say this much earlier um cuz you called me an expert and what I want to let everyone know is I'm the forever student, which I know Garrett, you're the forever student as well. And I learn from every conversation that I have and I wanted to thank you for for teaching me a few new things and I've got a few new rabbit holes to go down which lights me up. Uh so thank you for that. uh if people like to know more about uh breathing and breath work like we really like scratch the surface of the surface uh uh today and and uh I'd love to share more they can go to breathworkwithsin.com uh everything's free so there's free trainings free breath work experiences uh free guides there's a guide called breathe like this not that that teaches you uh basically how how to breathe in different situations and scenarios there's a stop snoring guide so if you snore your partner snores as I show you all the exercises to do and and uh proven techniques to reduce snoring and teach you how I got rid of my snoring. And you'll also get uh you know breathing tools and and resources that'll be helpful for you. And you'll get invited to live breath work experiences that we do that are that are always free that are always online um that the world is uh welcome to attend. So breathworkwithsin.com and then you know certainly if they want to find me uh on social media Facebook is where I share most of my content. So satchin Patel DC is where they can find me that's my handle on on Facebook. And if they want to learn more about our company living proof or want to work together in a metabolic capacity then they can go to um becomeproof.com.
>> Amazing. So that is a good good resources, good list of places to to go and check out. I hope you will do that. Final question for you Sachin. If you could share one message by shouting it from a rooftop or a mountain top for everyone to hear or putting it on a billboard for everyone to see, what would your one message be?
>> Yeah, it's a great question. It would be that uh the doctor of the future is the patient. And so really the the doctor is us. And I would say that once people kind of recognize their own capacity and healing, it's truly empowering. And if they can embody that, that's what I I'd love to see in my lifetime is what it looks like when when people know how to honor their bodies through which we honor our ancestors and our parents that helped build this body for us and how we can um use breath as a tool to help us get there.
>> Awesome.
>> So yeah, the doctor of the future is a patient. That's my message.
>> Amen. Beautiful message. Thank you, Sachin. It was great to great to get to catch up with you here and I'm really enjoy this. I am inspired to do I I mentioned you actually before we started recording since we were together last I started doing again I hadn't done in a while some of these air hunger drills regularly and for the last few weeks my HRV on my whoop has been higher than it's been in a long time and it it's been very inspiring. So, thank you for reigniting my own fire for these practices.
>> My pleasure. Thank you, brother. Thanks for sharing.
>> All right. And thank you, dear listener, for tuning in to another episode of the Undercurrent Podcast. See you next time.