Transcription
Welcome to Schlepper und Bode. Today we are talking about the topic of how you can scale a business from zero to a million-dollar business in 2026, or rather, how Nils and I would do it. And we actually have quite a bit of experience, because Nils is the founder of Levelup. I was a former manager at Levelup, a top manager, and Levelup, for all who don't know it, was a startup that we founded in 2018 and sold for a multi-million dollar amount in 2021, and with that, a warm welcome. A warm welcome, Nils. Thank you very much, Lukas. Yes, Lukas has already given a good intro for the people who don't know me, which is many, but few who listen to the podcast, I think. My name is Nils. I am one of the Levelup founders from 2018. Lukas was there from day 1, and I find it so funny, Lukas, when you say "manager," because that always sounds lower than what we were as founders, even though you were also part of the founding team from day 1. You were also authorized to sign. So I would always count you among the founding team. Therefore, we might need to work on the communication a bit in the future, so that we say that you were a member of the founding team. Uh, that is of course, when you say it yourself, it's always a bit weird, but when I tell you that, like, say it confidently, then I think it's not so weird anymore, you know what I mean? Yes, I feel that. One doesn't want to brag or boast about oneself, you know? Because it's always like in Germany, it's always like: "Oh, look, he thinks he's something special." In America, you would probably say, I did this and I did that. You would even say, I was the manager of X company and it failed before, but that doesn't matter because they have a different mindset, but yes. Okay, I will be bolder from now on, and I am very much looking forward to the episode. It is also an episode that has been asked about repeatedly in viewer questions, or rather, this episode is actually based on viewer questions, because it was always asked, where would you found a business? In which industry, in which niche, what would be margins that you would find good, how would you, if you were to found a business again from scratch after Levelup, what would you do? And yes, it was simply a great viewer question. Yes, totally. And with that, a call to action for everyone, if you have questions for us, always send them our way. We answer viewer questions in every episode, and if it's something that comes up more and more often and can fill an entire episode, then we will do as we are doing today and dedicate an entire episode to one question, and therefore, I would say, Lukas, let's get started, how would we found and scale a new business today? We'll get to that immediately. I just want to say one more thing. I want to say thank you briefly, Nils. We will go into more detail next week in our year-end review. The last two episodes were very successful on Spotify, and in the Spotify Wrapped, we saw in the Creator Wrapped. We also see the stats of our viewers. We were among the top 5 shows with over 1200 people or so, and the top show for the whole year with almost 300 people, and that is crazy. So that is really crazy. So thank you very much for that. But that also means that many of those people among whom we are the top show still don't follow us on Spotify and haven't given us a five-star rating yet. That means I want to say at this point again, do it, because we are dropping content again with this episode. We could also make an online course for that, and we are doing it here for free on Spotify and YouTube. True. Yes, [laughter] good. Okay, then I would say, let's start right away. Lukas, welcome to Schleer und Bodde. In this podcast, [music] your hosts Neil Schliepper and Lukas Bode give you insights into the world of money that are otherwise reserved only for millionaires and the super-rich. [music] You've already teased a question a bit, where would we found? And I think you have to strongly differentiate between our position and what we would advise people who are perhaps just starting to become self-employed etc. Because what we would do is definitely not what I would recommend to you, because I, personally, Niet Schlepper, who has already sold his company, would not found in Germany again. Why? Because I have other options now, but I founded in Germany back then, and therefore my appeal to you, and I believe that's why we will focus the episode on that today. Uh, found in Germany, there are always worse countries to found in, and the fact is, Germany is a huge market. You should never underestimate that. We have around 100 million German-speaking people in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, who are easier to target than, for example, if you try to reach many people in English. That means, in this episode, we will focus very clearly on how we would do it if we were to found a business in Germany next year. And you have to say, a lot has happened in recent years. So many things that we would do now, we wouldn't have done back then, we didn't do back then. But you also have to say, the founding was 8 years ago. And you have to imagine, when Levelup was founded, our startup, TikTok didn't exist yet, short-form videos didn't exist yet, it wasn't a thing yet. Nowadays, social media content consists of, I would just shoot from the hip and say 90% short-form content. That means a lot has happened, and we will talk about that today. Yes. Yes, I can also spill the beans directly. I have registered a sole proprietorship. I naturally have my freelance activity where I also do my business consulting. I also have a great story that fits the topic of this episode. And, uh, I registered my sole proprietorship in September, I think, and I still don't have a tax number. I spoke with the tax office today. That means my tip for you right away, if you found a business, if you do something, register it in time, because being able to start right away is not a given. So you will still encounter obstacles. Of course, you can start provisionally, you can do everything provisionally, but the proper setup, that takes time. That means that is also a very good tip, Nils, that you can start right away, correctly, with limitations, I would say. Yes, I would almost say, let's, so my tip would be very clear, don't let bureaucracy slow you down, everything takes 100 years here, but you can always do everything. Even if you register a GmbH, you can act as a GmbH in formation. That reads nicely, for example, if you found the ABC GmbH, then it says ABC GmbH.gp in formation. That means, don't let that slow you down. Uh, the wheel in Germany doesn't just turn slowly, but sometimes backwards and uphill. So we're not getting anywhere, but don't let that slow you down. Uh, I'll go back to our founding back then, maybe, May 2018, we said: "Hey, my co-founder and I, we want to tackle the Levelup project," and we sold the first can a month and a half later. So, was everything 100% correctly registered at that time? No, but we had momentum, we've also talked about that in an episode, and we just started. That means, don't let such bureaucracy slow you down, and especially not intimidate you. Yes, and what you also did back then, and you just said it, and it's in us Germans, we always want to do everything perfectly, we want to do everything correctly, and wait until everything is set up correctly, that's somehow in us because we don't want to break the rules. That's how we were taught from the beginning. In principle, that's not bad at all. In business, you should completely forget that. And what we also used with Levelup, for the first two years, I would say, you fly under the radar. Nobody has you on their radar. You always overestimate your own importance. I also love it. Someone from my family has now gone to Telegram and said, because in our circle of acquaintances, they always say you're being bugged. And then I say, who has the time to bug you, to bug me, let's say 80 million Germans, and that's just Germany, then there's all of Europe and America and so on. Nobody has the time to bug an individual person that much. And what I'm getting at is that nobody has the time to look into person X, who has just founded a business. Did they do everything correctly? Just get started. You fly under the radar as long as you don't mess with other people. We did that with Levelup at some point. We even did a Red Bull spot, remember that, where we were then warned by them. Exactly. But in principle, in the beginning, nobody is interested in you. That means, don't worry so much. And if you ever get a slap on the wrist, you can always apologize afterwards and say: "Oh, we didn't know, we're a young startup. Sorry, we'll take care of it." So, that's also something we always exploited in the beginning. We just did it first and apologized later. Exactly. And yes, I can sign all of that, and I would say, how we will structure the entire episode now. I think we should also say, we will really focus on one business in this episode. That means, you want to found a startup, a successful business, you want to sell some product, there is of course always the option of services. I am a huge fan of that. You have to say, to be fair, when you are at the very beginning of your entrepreneurial career, you often overestimate yourself, and you know this "time is money" and letting people work for you. Let me tell you one thing. Your time is worth a damn little at the beginning. So, that means you can exchange time for money without any problems at the beginning, because that is the biggest leverage at the beginning. At the beginning, the biggest leverage is that you use yourself, your time, offer a service. Whether it's something digital, whether it's something where you fix cars, whatever, the important thing is that you build up capital somehow. So, with that capital, you can then take the next step and found your own business, your own brand, and there we are at the very first point where most people fail. What should I do? So, and there I would say, look left and right. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. We've said that many, many times, and it's still super important. If you look today at who are the super successful startups, and I'll drop a few names now. There's Holy Energy, who are incredibly successful. Levelup existed before. So, you have to say clearly, they copied Levelup to a certain extent, hey. Which is perfectly fine. We weren't the first with Levelup either. There were companies in the USA. So, then there's Ahead Nutrition, who make sugar-free snacks. Super successful. Yes, there are infinitely many fitness brands, they have also focused on this sugar-free space. A very prominent example is More Nutrition. They didn't invent protein powder. They launched at a time when people said: "Hey, this fitness market is dead, it's oversaturated," and they found their niche in that market again. What do I want to say with that? You don't have to reinvent the wheel. Look at what already exists. Look at where you also have a bit of interest. That means, if you have nothing to do with hair, it might not make sense to launch a shampoo brand. That means you should have a certain connection to it, and then there are many, many, many possibilities, and the most important thing is to start, because if all these brands that I've just listed hadn't started, they would never have found their way. And one more word on that. Holy Energy also started with a very specific focus on gamers, and they eventually realized, okay, we're moving away from gamers and moving more into the mainstream. Ahead Nutrition started and sold products that were supposed to boost you in a biohacking way, make you better, and now they are into sugar-free snacks. More Nutrition started with science-based, that you are healthier. Now they have completely focused on the market of fat loss, weight loss. So, that means all these brands started somewhere and are now somewhere else. And the most important thing is that you start. That means you can look to the USA, look to Asia, also look in Germany, is there anything in an area that excites you, where you think: "Hey, maybe you can do it a little better with a small twist." Exactly. And just because you start with A, that's the second learning you just said, doesn't mean you can't just develop further to B, you know, and that you do things better, or rather. So you see, let's say with the protein bars from someone who did something at the beginning that was super healthy, but didn't taste good at all, and then someone comes along and the founder half-heard someone say, yeah, it's not a Snickers, right? And then he thought, ah, look, Snickers tastes great. Our product is healthy, but it doesn't taste great. We need to make something that also tastes great, that's not just healthy, but also tastes great. And suddenly, a new idea is born. And then, of course, you can't be so narrow-minded or dogmatic and say, no, we're doing it this way, that was our plan. You also have to have the courage to correct. And we did that with Levelup too. With Levelup, we used to do our two-for-one promotions, and then at some point we realized, no, we don't want to do that anymore. But we were almost broke in 2019, and then we said, screw it, we said last week we'll never do it again, but now we're doing it anyway because it's necessary right now at this point. So, you just have to be ready to adjust your position if reality requires it. Exactly. And I wouldn't even relate it so much to the two-for-one promotion, but much more to the product. We started with a product that was highly rated. That means we had, I'll drop a few terms now that probably most people won't understand. For example, we had 2.5g of N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine in it. That's a substance that makes you much more focused. And N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine is the better form of L-Tyrosine. So, we had a super cool composition, super cool substance, and we just realized, people are not interested in it at all. Taste is the most important thing for them. That means we adjusted our product, our marketing, and our positioning so that we focused on the product tasting good, because we realized, people who game, it's a bit different from people who go to the gym, for them, the effect is not number one. They want to drink a great, delicious drink while gaming. And so we also adjusted the positioning of Levelup a bit. That means, product-wise, look left, look right. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. You can also enter a market that already exists. People always think, oh, in business, they call it Blue Ocean and Red Ocean. Red Ocean is a market that is very crowded, where there are already many fishermen trying to catch the fish there, and Blue Ocean is a free ocean, so to speak, where the opposite prevails. But you should never forget why it's a Blue Ocean. Maybe someone has already tried it and it didn't work. With the other, you have the proof that it works. That means, from a product perspective, that's what I would say. Uh, look left, look right. I think that's actually a natural process, Nils, that this happens, that the USP changes, because as a founder, you have something in mind. You think, this is what the market wants, and the market then tells you, yes, I want that, but actually this is even more important to me. For example, we thought exactly that with Levelup, and I know that we also said it at the beginning when we onboarded influencers, like, what is caffeine for, what is green tea extract for, and what is N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine for, and then we eventually realized, hey, nobody cares. The only thing people care about is the taste. And accordingly, we then also, and loyal listeners will know the story of the Levelup shots that we released, and they really didn't taste good at all. Then we realized, okay, we can't continue with this product, this product has to disappear again because it harms the brand, because the brand is good taste. That was our brand, not the ingredients or the effect, but simply the flavor. And that's important, I think, that you always, and this is a very important learning. You always have to think from the customer's perspective, what do they really want? Not what you want as an entrepreneur, but what the customer wants. Yes. Yes, that's right. And I would also say, Lukas, it's a mix, because we've also often found that the customer sometimes doesn't know what they want. And that means, of course, I agree with you 100%, you have to have an open ear for the customer. You have to know what the market wants, in which direction things are going, but don't become too dependent on it, because you also have to consider that the people you reach, who have a voice, who give you feedback, are usually the very, very loyal customers, and they then say, for example, with Levelup, we want peppermint flavor, we want something with licorice, where you know, okay, the broad mass probably won't find that great, but generally yes, totally, you have to adjust to it somehow, you have to adjust a brand so that it's in demand in the market, what the target group is. And I, uh, would now say a word or two about finding the right supplier. And then I would move on relatively quickly to how I would market the product, because we want to talk today about what we would do in 2026 and basically not the A-B-C of how to found a business, but specifically focus on where I see the trends next year, where you should go, what you should avoid. And the topic of suppliers is a very big one. Let's say you have a great idea. I'll give an example, you want to bring a shampoo to market, you have a passion for hair, whatever. You see a market, you think, I'll say something really striking now, the country needs vibrant shampoos. Everything is very focused on ingredients. But I really want a brand that pops, that's colorful, that's eye-catching. So, how do you approach that? The first thing I would do is just look for white-label producers in Germany who make shampoo. So. And it's simply a matter of diligence. You have to work your way through it, you have to research, you have to search, you might look, okay, what is an ingredient that is in every shampoo, and then you look at who produces this ingredient, then you can also contact that company and say: "Hey, which contract fillers do you supply?" Because we are totally interested in your raw material. So. And then you get more contacts, and then you have to talk to people, and you should never forget, these are all people. Be friendly, be open-minded, have your mission somewhat prepared. When you write them an email, don't say something like: "Hey, I'm Jonas and I want to found my first startup and I wanted to ask if it's possible." No, act a bit more professionally, say: "Hi, I'm Jonas from XYZ, we want to launch a new product. Uh, and we just wanted to chat about a possible collaboration," and then you get into a conversation, then you find out, what are the minimum order quantities? And my experience was, and Lukas can confirm that, because we were on many such calls together, if the contract filler you're talking to can't help you, you can always ask, do you know anyone who does something like that? And in the rarest of cases, they say nothing about it, because in the end, they are also business people, and it's a bit like, I help you, you help me in the future, I give you a good contact, maybe you'll come back to me in the future. And the best contacts, Lukas, we got through other people and through him, and he knows him, and he recommended him. That means, be open-minded, you really have to get out there. You shouldn't expect, and we also did a podcast episode about that recently, you shouldn't expect to just be discovered, that someone will come to you and say, I have the best margin for you, I have the best product for you, but you have to be proactive, you have to search, you have to talk to people, and then you will gradually find out where your competitors also produce. Yes, and what we also did back then, and I just thought of it when you said that, when you said you have to act professionally and not, as you just said, yes, I'm founding my first business. What we often did back then was to sell a really strong vision, especially to the producers. We're selling this much now, and then the plan is to sell this much, so that they really, in the end, you always want something from the producer. You want to buy the product cheaply, not at the price they give you first, or they give you first, but you want to push them down, and you can do that by simply positioning yourself in a way that you say, yes, we're not there yet, but we will be there, and that's what we've also done many times, is that we then said, like, we need the support. Yes, exactly. We need your support now at the beginning, so that we can really take off. We want to work together in the future too, right? So give us a vote of confidence now so that we can really step on the gas and make a big splash. We always did that. Yes, and the thing is, yes, we also believed in the mission ourselves so much, that means we weren't talking nonsense, and it's simply the reality, if the producer gives you €1 cheaper purchase prices, you can invest €1 more in marketing. This way, you grow faster, you sell more, you place an order again faster. And you have to be able to communicate that credibly, of course, by saying, hey, we have a great brand, we have the great vision, we need your support now, we need this low minimum order quantity now to start, because we know that next year we will sell so and so much. And in the end, these are all people. You have to sell the vision. You have to be convincing, of course. You have to believe in your vision yourself. And one thing I've heard and read very often, Lukas, is that people are afraid. Uh, when I talk to a producer, should I have them sign an NDA? What if they steal the idea? Let me tell you one thing. Lukas said it at the beginning, nobody is interested in you. Nobody has time for that. And the reality is, Lukas and I together are capable of launching, of bringing any product to market. No matter what kind of idea I get, where an idea is presented to me, if it doesn't already have a track record, it's completely irrelevant to me at first, because you don't know all niches, and no matter how good it sounds, if someone says, for example, hey, I'm launching shampoo only for footballers, huge market, great distribution channels. Could be, I don't know, but I'm not going to run off and copy this brand. Which brands would I copy? Brands that are already successful, where I know, hey, I can tailor it to a different target group, transfer it to another market. That means the reality is, don't be afraid to communicate your idea externally. I can promise you one thing. Competition will come anyway, and it's also important, but don't be afraid of it in the first step and don't start running around with NDAs, because I'll put it this way, if you approach producers and immediately wave an NDA around, that's directly in the communication. Okay, so we are communicating on this level with each other, with contracts and confidentiality agreements, and you will never build a good business relationship that way, and we always had great business relationships with our producers, on a first-name basis, on an equal footing, and we even sent memes back and forth, and that's [laughter] the reality of a good business relationship. Yes, I'm still traumatized by some GIFs I received. In any case, that's one thing. Nobody is as interested in the product you want to launch as you are. And the flip side of that, Nils, is not that the product won't be stolen. There will also be many people who say, this won't work. And those people don't matter, because the probability is 95% that they themselves haven't founded a business, have no idea, that they might not even want you to be successful, because that would hold a mirror up to them. And if they are not among the 95% who badmouth it, but among the, then it's the producer or whoever you're asking, then you don't have to be afraid, because they have other things to do than to copy your idea, of which nothing has been established yet, you know? Yes. And the best example again is Levelup. Now everyone says in retrospect: "Yes, you had the right idea at the right time." Hey, 90% of people back then said, a booster for gamers, who's going to buy that? That's what 90% of people said, and now everyone knows, yes, it was the right thing at the right time, to which I just think, dude, it sounded very different back then, but that's a psychological thing, it also exists in sports, so you can transfer it to sports. If someone breaks a world record, right, that hasn't been broken before, then probably 50% of people will run that exact record the following year, or just under it, which wasn't possible before, but you've set the bar so high that people think it's possible and suddenly these things become possible, and it's the same with businesses, at first nobody believes in it, and then, when you've done it, everyone says: "Yes, it was obvious, I always believed in it." So, yes, that's totally great, and this is a bit off-topic, but I want to tell it very briefly, and I heard it recently, and that is, if a louse can jump 100 times its own body height. A louse. Yes, wait. And if you put lice in a glass, they will always jump there. So, if you then put a beer coaster on top, they will jump against it for hours, for days. Eventually, they will stop trying. As soon as you remove the coaster, they won't even try to jump against it, because they have this limitation. That means the psychological limitation still exists, but the physical one is gone. And it even goes so far that the children who are born no longer try to jump out of this glass, because they have seen it lived by their parents. And you can transfer that to the fact that many people always consider things impossible and probably also from their own environment, because they have never done it. And if there is someone there who does it, then it suddenly becomes clear that it is possible. Yes, there's also a, it's not a bit dark, but there's also an experiment with mice where mice were put in water, and then they were left there until they almost drowned. And the mice that were taken out just before they drowned, when they were put back in the water, they lasted five times as long because they fought, because they simply knew, maybe I'll be saved. Exactly. And the others, well, yes, terrible. [laughter] Okay, but but it but it's also then again, if you believe in something, then you have extra strength. Yes, no, totally. So, good, I think we can say that about the product, about product finding, about producers. And now I think we'll talk about what interests most people, Lukas, and that is what would we do in 2026? What are the hot trends? What is the, uh, what in my eyes has a lot of potential? And there, and there I would preempt one thing, we've discussed it before and we're living it ourselves right now. And that is the topic of personal brands. A personal brand is exactly what it sounds like, right? A brand, a personal brand. In Germany, there are many big personal brands. Montana Black, Elx, Elias. These are all streamers, gamers from the Twitch scene. These are personal brands in themselves. People stand for something. They are celebrated for who they are, not just for what they do. And personal brands are, in my eyes, influencer marketing 2.0. You have to look a bit at how Instagram has developed. Instagram was relatively new back then. At some point, the story function came along. Companies realized, okay, influencers are basically walking billboards. They are people who build an emotional connection with their viewers and who function much better than, for example, TV advertising or billboard advertising, because they are a bit
It's like a good friend. I watch the stories, I watch the posts, and if that person recommends something to me, then of course I trust it. That worked incredibly well at the beginning, for the first few years. There were really many brands that became incredibly big solely through Instagram, through influencer marketing. But that all has its time, that all has its cycle, and one must say, meanwhile there are many influencers who advertise an unbelievable number of products and are therefore also very unbelievable. And this whole topic of influencer marketing has also gotten a bit of a bad rap. That means you also see some people in reality TV who get a lot of reach through it and then advertise the same crap, which is incredibly unbelievable. So, that means, in my eyes, by 2026, many influencers will be increasingly irrelevant to advertising partners. That means, which influencers will be relevant? Influencers who are very niche. That means, if I, for example, bring cooking products to the market, really influencers who are very niche in this cooking game, or large personal brands. And you have the chance as a founder to become your own strongest influencer. That means, who is credible? So, who can be more credible when it comes to your own product than the founder himself? Than the founder herself. That means this mixture of it being a sales channel on the one hand, if you are in front of the camera yourself, promoting your own brand, and on the other hand, it's one of the best branding, because people like small companies, they like these small startups, these likeable companies. And that means this whole topic of personal brand, making yourself a personal brand, is a huge lever in my eyes, especially for the next year and for the coming years. Yes. Yes. I'll take a step back to what we used to do with influencers and what you also did with Tricks, what you just mentioned as an example, they don't advertise for ten different companies, but Ellootrix has had Levelup as a partner for years, for like 5 years. He's had Displayed as a partner for 5 years, and that creates continuity. If an influencer advertises a new company every month, then you know, as soon as he advertises a company, okay, this is a placement, he's being paid for it, and that's why he's doing it. If an influencer advertises something for years, yes, just like we structured our contracts at Levelup back then, then you know, okay, he seems to stand behind it, it's not just about money, but it's a long-term partnership. It's not just like here's some cash and do the placement, everyone gets that nowadays. Everyone knows how this business works by now. And accordingly, it's simply important, if you're doing influencer marketing, to make sure that you choose sensible people who are not sellouts, who don't always switch from one company to the next just because they get more money there, but who are simply reputable and interested in the partnership long-term. And what I also find cool about the topic of personal brands, and now we can steer the topic in the other direction. As a personal brand, if you and you can found companies below, and people, Elias does that too, Elias Nlich, he has founded many companies, and people know, ah okay, that's from him, and then they support it. So, it can of course go the other way, if you have a shitstorm, this company will be immediately shitstormed. So, and with Levelup, you did it back then, for example, you used your social media, you were a YouTuber, you were an influencer, you completely stopped, simply so that the company had no face. That means there are two ways, you can simply decide. But if we now take the path you just mentioned, from the personal brand, you simply have endless possibilities for how you can monetize yourself. Do you do it with a company, do you do it with a placement, do you do it with a digital product? So, you can generate so many different income streams, and that's why for me, that would be what I would definitely do if I were to found a brand now, and especially now the cool thing is, and maybe we'll still have time to talk about it in the course of the episode, what we wouldn't do again. And let me just briefly, let me just briefly touch on what you said, because I think it's important, because I don't want to contradict you, but I think you have to differentiate very clearly between acting as a personal brand, as a founder for a company, or saying, I am now an influencer, because that's what you just described with placements and digital products. It's more, you can describe it as a personal brand, but actually it's more being an influencer, because if you say, for example, I am now a personal brand, and I have now brought the Color Shampoo to the market, then it is incredibly unbelievable if you then start advertising for other products. Okay, I know what you mean. It's about me, it's about you, it's really about a very strong differentiation. What does a person stand for? And you think of Nils Schlieper and you know, that's the guy who founded Levelup, and therefore, right? Okay, I know. Okay, then I know what you mean. And I would even be so drastic, Lukas, that I say, we chose the path back then in 2018, that my CFAer and I said, we don't want to be in the public eye, we don't want to stand for the product. And I would go so far as to say that it's almost essential nowadays that the founder stands by their brand, because in times of AI, where you have an unbelievable amount of artificially created images and videos, natural content will assert itself even more, because the fact is, more and more brands will rely on AI. But I think everyone can agree with me. If you see a brand that produces and uses an unbelievable amount of AI content, it makes it incredibly unbelievable and cheap. Exactly. And I would even say that in times when AI is so on the rise, you have to stand by your brand with your face. You have to be there as a founder, you have to explain, you have to be transparent, because it's no longer just sold through paid ads and influencers, people want to know what's behind this company. And of course, it can also work without you as the founder being the face of the product, but you miss out on such a gigantic opportunity to use this channel. Also, I really talk to many startups. I recently spoke with a startup, actually from the H sector, and they only do founder ads, they do ads, only founder ads, so only advertising where the founders appear. They only do that because they convert like crazy. They do nothing else. So, and where we back then, I mean, and where we back then still rendered images with the can and that it looks delicious, I would never do that again today, because that's simply outdated. So, that worked back then, it doesn't work today anymore. Today you need founder stories. I mean, Holy also started like that back then, they used to dress up, the founders, and put on a chicken costume or something, because they always had their mascots. I think they started exactly like that back then. Yes, I would say Holy was still on the threshold. The founders were sometimes seen, but not very present. They are in a few ads. But if you look at brands that are starting new today, it's really the founder who explains, this is how we made the product, and it's a different vibe. And I would also, so I would clearly say, you can do it without it, because I know many people don't want to be in front of the camera. But hey, honestly, people, if you don't even dare to go in front of the camera, then forget about founding a successful company. So, you will have many other challenges, and if the only barrier for people to go in front of the camera is what other people think of you. And if you are in the mindset that what other people think of you is important to you, then you need to work on that first before you even think about founding a company, because you will have completely different challenges. So, and therefore, for me, in conclusion on this topic of personal brand, it is such a gigantic opportunity, and I say the next unicorns, the next 10 years, the next billion-dollar corporations will largely come from people with reach who have a personal brand, who give the brand a face. Yes, 100%. So, and you wanted to talk about things we wouldn't do again. Exactly, that's what I wanted to talk about, and I also wanted to interrupt you about something else. I completely forgot. Ah, the topic of cancellation, if a brand has a shitstorm, we just talked about it, you didn't want to give the company a face back then, in case something happens or then people say, yeah, right, Schliepper, whatever. Of course, it also goes the other way. You can intervene as a founder, if there's a small distance between the brand and you as the founder, and you can explain a story differently, or and if you are really canceled, and I think a good example of a personal brand is Christian Wolf, who constantly has a shitstorm or people talk about him, but he simply doesn't get canceled, just like Donald Trump. There will always be people who hate you. Especially in such a polarized society as we live in, there will always be about 50% who like you, 50% who think you're absolutely shit and don't want to see you on any screen anymore and want to cancel you. Don't let yourself be canceled, right? Just be unapologetic, don't apologize, don't do anything. You said what you said, period. Unless you've really messed up. Yes, it's just love me or hate me. You just can't be irrelevant. So, if you try to please everyone, you please no one, then you are irrelevant, then you are replaceable, and you don't want that. Therefore, for me, honestly, in my eyes, this is the biggest opportunity in the coming years, if you found a company, to stand by your brand with your face, because if you later do paid ads, if you run Meta ads, YouTube ads, Google ads, everything that goes with it, and you can appear as the founder, you will not only save an unbelievable amount of money on influencers who are not as behind the brand as you sometimes think, but they will also, what I'm really getting from startups where I'm invested and what I observe, they will convert incredibly well. But of course, it's also important again, keep an eye on everything. I would say every movement has a strong counter-movement, and in my eyes, there is currently a strong movement towards AI, towards automating things, which is justified. But I think in this area of content, you won't have to worry, because with AI and AI on the rise, and you should use these systems for your company to automate processes in support, for example. But especially when it comes to content, a strong counter-movement will emerge, where original content will assert itself even more than is already the case. And if people ask me what to focus on now, a newly founded brand, is it Google, is it Meta, is it influencers? No, it's really organic social media content, credible content. It has never been easier to build organic reach than today. When we started with Levelup back then, Lukas, there was no real algorithm. The only algorithm on Insta was if you did a giveaway and people shared it. So, nowadays you can post a Reel and it can get hundreds of thousands of clicks, and you can reach so many new people, and it's free. You just have to create the content, and if you also take yourself as an influencer, then we're back to this topic. Now the circle closes, what I said at the beginning, trading time for money. That means you trade your time for good ads, and that has the potential to go viral, to polarize, and try to buy this reach that you can achieve with social media nowadays, try to buy it. It's terribly expensive and not nearly as high quality. And honestly, that was already the strongest argument for it, Nils, you have reach for free. Basically awesome. Exactly. Exactly. And that's how community building works. And if you look at what are the really big strong brands? More Nutrition, super strong brand, Holy, strong brand, a strong brand, these are all communities by now. These are hardcore fans, these are the hard fans, just like with Levelup back then. Back then we had a Facebook group. I think it's still a thing for a – don't underestimate it. Especially if you have a product that appeals to an older target group, then Facebook can be very relevant, and through this Facebook group, what we pushed through there, what converted there, it was the hardcore fans, and that means don't underestimate this community building, it goes hand in hand with building organic reach, and I can tell you one thing, when do paid ads really become fun? When you already have good brand awareness organically, and then you start doing retargeting, then it's really – then it's really fun, and then it can be a real lever. I have to smile right now, because there are really many people who use Facebook, I don't know anyone, but I think they exist. We saw that back then with Level. Yes, especially the older target group, who, let's say, are in their mid-30s and older, or even early 30s, I don't know. So, I think there are still many who use it. Well, I love that the older target group starts at 30. [laughter] In any case, there is also something that I would not do again, and that always causes a lot of drama, which is a cost factor, a permanent cost factor, and that is personnel. And what we both have seen again and again, we both have many examples of it, is simply companies that have kept their personnel structure very lean. I recently spoke with a company consultant for a food supplement manufacturer for vegan products, and they – it's the two founders, so they have a turnover in the mid-millions, but they are also just the two founders, and then they have three part-time employees for support, for inquiries, and somehow also – I don't know – accounting, back office, so, yes. Now two founders, three part-time employees, and they make millions. So, and you also know a brand that was particularly successful in America, which did something similar, the two founders and a few employees, and scaled it to a multi-million brand. Yes, look at Telegram. Telegram has 30 employees, so, and they make multi-billions. So, I'm completely with you there. Don't start hiring blindly. Really think about it. You can go a very, very long time with few people, but don't fall into extremes either. We fell into the extreme of hiring too much, because we thought, okay, everyone has the same mindset as us, everyone wants to go for it, and 1 + 1 is 3. That's why we're hiring a lot of people now. Hire thoughtfully. Don't say, I have to do everything myself. I absolutely don't want to hire anyone, but if you hire, do it thoughtfully, so that everyone has their task, so that you really know, okay, if I have an employee for this area, then it will get better. So, I'm 100% with you there, Lukas. And it's really important. It's not just about the cost factor and that it's always a huge chunk every month that you spend on employees. It's also terrible if you have to fire people for the entire team, for morale, for everything. And it's also something, Nils, that doesn't just happen to us, it happens to the really big companies. You had the layoffs at Microsoft, at Meta, at Twitter, at all these brands a couple of years ago, and then there are other companies like Nintendo, for example, who don't hire so many people, but then also don't have to lay anyone off. So, and therefore, yes, it's generally important, I think, regardless of employee costs, to keep ongoing costs as low as possible, because that eats into your margin. Yes, 100%. A 100% margin, maybe a topic where we can say a sentence or two. Of course, a high-margin product is always more fun, and I would always recommend it to you, if you have the chance, take a product with a good margin. That gives you the opportunity to further develop the product. That gives you more opportunities in marketing, and I wouldn't define my target margin, because it varies from product to product, but at the end of the day, people, you want to make money, yes? Keep that in mind, you want to make money. The product should of course be decent, meaning don't skimp on the product side. And personally, I would always prefer to bring a high-priced product to market than any low-priced product. So, I just wanted to mention that briefly because you just mentioned margin. And regarding the hiring topic again. You also have to say clearly, hire and fire. That means, if you hire people and you quickly realize they're not it, get rid of them. As harsh as it sounds. In the end, it's your company. You pay for it with your own money. It's your risk. If the company goes bankrupt, you're left standing there. So, it always sounds a bit negative, but there are A, B, and C players. A players are employees who lift other employees up, who make other employees better. C players are employees who drag other employees down. These are people, and you have to say it, we've experienced it ourselves, who always have a negative face at work, and if you sit next to someone with such a face for 8 hours a day, you'll be dragged down by it. We've really noticed that when we removed these negative people, everyone felt better. So, be radical about it, hire, use the first period, use this probationary period to really see if it's a fit, if this person fits into the company, and if the person doesn't fit, get rid of them immediately. Immediately. Nils, that's such an important topic. I can't say which company it is, but there's someone in a supervisory role who is absolutely not up to the task. This person also doesn't work the whole week, but has one day off, and when you have A-players who are going for it, then that's the role model, then that's the bar that everyone aims for, and then people also want to give more. But if you have someone who goes out for a smoke once an hour or more often, who also doesn't come to the office, and who has a laid-back attitude, that drags people down. So, it doesn't even have to be someone who is, as you just said, in a bad mood. That's the absolute nightmare, because people poison your company culture, but it's enough if someone just has this attitude of, yeah, I'll come today, I'll come tomorrow, then nobody wants to go for it, because you think, yeah, that's how it works, he gets his salary too, so I don't have to go for it that much. So, that's really important, and we made the mistake back then, we often didn't fire people directly during the probationary period, and you have to do that, because after that it becomes difficult to fire people, and then it's all a nightmare. So, get rid of them. Yes, you said it well, Lukas. Okay, for me, I don't know if you have anything else on this topic now. I think we've summarized it well. If there are any questions, of course, always put them in the comments. We'll try to answer them in the comments or in the future, but for me, it was important to show that there's this trend towards AI, and that's exactly why original content will prevail, and content is king and will remain even more relevant in my eyes in the coming years. And I have a strong take that, of course, you can exclude certain AI companies, but when we talk about e-commerce brands, about physical products, then in my eyes, many unicorns in the coming years will be founded by people who already have a large reach. That means, use this lever, the personal brand, when you found a company, to make yourself strong as a brand and position yourself. Yes, that was good input, and I would say, Lukas, let's slide directly into the viewer questions. I think I heard you've prepared something again. Yes. And we have viewer questions from Instagram, from YouTube, and from Spotify. I've picked one from each platform, because that's also fair, I thought. And accordingly, a call to action to you again. You can always ask us questions. We often just take some questions into the Q&A, like we're doing now. We dedicate some questions to a whole episode, like today. And yes, the first question comes from Benjamin Schilling on Instagram, and he asked, how and when would you approach scaling first to the DACH region and then abroad? I think we can answer that relatively quickly. You can only scale abroad. For that, you need employees, for that, you need the right, and you need really good employees. We at Levelup, we did it a bit half-heartedly back then. We noticed it wasn't growing that much, and we actually wanted to grow more in Germany because there's still much more potential there, and so we put it on the back burner. If you want to scale abroad, you have to have a really good team there, really good managers, not just some working student or someone who has no experience, but you need top people, preferably hired through a headhunter. And otherwise, stick to the DACH region. Right. I think an EU expansion is of course necessary to bring companies to a certain dimension, but it's always romanticized. You have to forget, you have an EU trademark law. That means you have to check your brand again for different areas. For example, we were never allowed to use the term Levelup in Poland because there was already a brand there. So, and that means, don't underestimate it. It's not like you just translate your content into English and it works. No, in Spain people speak Spanish. Spaniards are not as affluent. In Italy, people speak Italian. Guess what? Italians are also not as affluent as Germans. French people are very particular about foreign products. Then there's the UK, but that's no longer in the EU. That means it's a lot of headaches. And if you consider the gigantic potential in Europe, I'm invested in a startup, they're currently doing an EU expansion. Man, I can tell you, they're making almost 100 million in revenue in Germany. So, before you even think about scaling big in the EU, focus on the DACH region. Many companies would wish to have such a strong market as Germany, Austria, Switzerland. Yes, and especially if it also doesn't matter if, while you're growing enormously in Germany, if it's scaling abroad, because you'll then simply have the money from Germany and then you can go in there and overrun them. German supermarket chains also did that. You now have Rossmann everywhere in Europe, you have Lidl everywhere, but Lidl, all those Rossmanns, where you can shop everywhere from Spain to Poland, they first scaled up in Germany until everything was saturated, and then they went abroad. So, and then you also have a war chest, where you can then – yes – go abroad. That sounded wrong, because you know what I mean. Yes, no, just briefly, so that people don't – so it's not just a translation. Every market works differently, especially in Europe. Five Guys failed in Germany, super successful abroad. Yes, they failed. They'll probably close all their stores now, so, because the concept didn't work in Germany. And it's the same with a gaming booster working much harder in France than, for example, in Italy or Germany. That means, don't underestimate it, focus on the DACH region, and if the topic becomes relevant, bring in experts from the fields, native speakers, who may have even scaled something in that country before, and – good luck. [laughter] Yes, awesome. I always liked going to Five Guys, but I haven't been there in a long time, I have to say. Maybe I drove the company into bankruptcy in Germany. Well, anyway, Fabi asks, and the question is for you, Nils, how did you learn to present yourself like that (mimicry, gestures, pronunciation)? Boah, I'll take that as a compliment. Um, well, I didn't learn it anywhere. It came quite naturally. I think I learned a lot during the time I first started YouTube. Um, but all the gesturing I do when I speak, that comes relatively naturally. Um, I can imagine that some people struggle with it. Then I can only recommend, I once had a guy in my algorithm who always showed how to present yourself, shoulders back, not crossing your arms, and things like that. Um, you can definitely look at things like that, but otherwise, for me, it really came from uploading over 800 videos on YouTube back then, seeing the videos myself, and then at some point, probably subconsciously reflecting on my presentation. But I never said to myself, okay, I need to gesture more, I need to do this more, I need to do that more. And that's exactly the key. You shouldn't overthink it at all. Just be yourself. Don't think too much about your mimicry and gestures. Of course, record yourself or something. I think that helped you enormously back then, but I also think you never thought about it too much, because you can overthink it, you can go in and really, and how, and what if someone doesn't like it? No, that's – then we're exactly back to where we were talking about earlier. Don't think too much about what others think of you. For example, before this podcast, I always thought I couldn't speak a coherent sentence. So, and sometimes you have a wrong image of yourself, and maybe – Fabi, you already have a very good presentation and good gestures and whatever, gestures, mimicry, and – yes, you just need to believe in yourself a little more. I just thought of that meme, when you walked past a group of girls in school back then, and you had a crush on one of them, and suddenly you forgot how to walk, and you walk really stiffly because you're concentrating so hard on walking normally, you know? [laughter] If you overthink it, then you can't do anything. And you have to say, there are of course a few things that you shouldn't do or that you do in relation to your presentation. For example, when you shake someone's hand, stand up. It's a small thing, a form of politeness. So, I always do that when I shake someone's hand, I stand up, look them in the eye. So, um, and a proper handshake. Exactly. A proper handshake, maintain eye contact. Um, when I'm talking to someone, not like this, not making yourself small, not crossing your arms, but with your hands on your hips, your arms, your arms wide, or when I say hello, spread your arms wide, you make yourself – these are small things that I probably do subconsciously, but I know that there are people who have focused on helping other people with this on YouTube and so on. And there I would simply say, um, better posture, better gestures, mimicry, and you can certainly take a lot from that and internalize it subconsciously at some point. Just self-confidence. I think self-confidence is the most important thing. I mean, I walk around and I just know that I'm an absolutely great guy and [laughter] no, kidding aside. And this energy, we also bring that over into Schleppha and Bode, and Alexander wrote to us on Spotify and said, thanks. Great transition. Yes, but wait, wait, really, really thank you for the nice episode. Actually, I felt a bit stuck in my job and wondered why I wasn't progressing. After a few episodes of Schlie, I went to my boss, and he's now giving me training to become a manager. That's where it is again, or you can see that everything is in our hands again. Thank you both. I'm going to put my chives to bed now. [laughter] Many greetings and good night. No, but I found this message very cool, because asking questions costs nothing. My mom always says, asking questions costs nothing. You can go to your boss and ask. Often you just have your own stories in your head. Yes, that person thinks this or that person thinks that, or I made this impression on that person, you don't know. And Alexander simply went to his boss and asked, because he gained courage and absorbed the energy from Stieper and Bodde, and now he's doing training to become a manager. Love, so I love everything about it in a company, because say what you want, communicate. Don't assume that people will come to you and ask you, what do you want? Should I do this? No, you have to learn to communicate what you want in your life. Go to your boss and say, what is my future in this company? I want to achieve more. I want to earn more money. I want more responsibility.
I want to help bring the company forward. Do I have a place here? Do you see potential in me? And if not, what can I do to change that? You must communicate, be confident, slam the table, damn it, and come out of yourselves and communicate in life. You don't want to lie on your deathbed. In a few years, we'll probably all be 130 years old, and at 130, somehow say, oh, if only I had, if only I had opened my mouth, open your damn mouths. And the worst thing people can say is usually no. And then you know where you stand, instead of wasting years. Exactly. Expectation management. So that's exactly what it's about. Your boss can't read your mind. He doesn't know you have ambitions. Maybe it's not even the vibe you're projecting. And yes, so just ask. Yes, it costs you nothing. And if you get a no, then you have clarity. That's also nice. And with a job change, you usually earn more money anyway, but at least you know where you stand. Exactly. Very, very cool. I had a third one, I'm really happy about it. I was also really happy about it. I also said that. Thanks, that's really nice feedback. We often get messages like that, Nils. And I would say, we'll just take the fourth question with us into next week. Cool. And then we can now move on to WGBS WGBB. WGBS WGBB. What's up with Schleer? What's up with Boder? What's up with Schleer? What's up with Boder? And yes, I want to, and someone just wrote, Nils, what's up with chives? What's up with chives as a comment? I laughed so hard. What's up with chives? What's up with leeks? [laughter] And Nils, I wanted to ask you, how's your back? So you were thrown through the air by a judo throw. I saw it on TikTok and Instagram. Yes. Yes, my back is doing quite well. I have to say, the man who threw me across the room did it very well. I even told him at the time, throw me a bit harder, so it looks really cool for the video. It looked super cool. I also have a screenshot, I paused it at the moment when your legs were really in the air. If you haven't seen the video, please check it out on TikTok or Instagram by Nils. It was so funny. Yes, that's also a good transition. I've kind of stepped up my short content game a bit, tried some new things, you've also lent me your voice a few times, you're doing that again today, and yes, I wanted to, I just wanted to try a few new things and maybe also, I think it's cool that we always try to deliver something new with "Was geht bei Slip, was geht bei Bode," because I also got a message right away, try new things, if you do social media, try something new. If you see you've made two or three videos in the same setting, and it's not working, do a different setting. Sit somewhere else, stand somewhere else, say one sentence, and then change location. Say one word, change location, try new things. So, if A doesn't work, don't keep doing A. And there's also that saying, madness is to know that you're always doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Yes, you told me that this week about my content too. I'm still implementing it, Nils, but yes. Yes, but if that was a subtle message to me, I just wanted to mention it, right? No, I'm telling you directly to your face, but that's what I noticed. So, I had content formats that were always very similar, and I kept doing them and somehow thought it would get better, but of course, it doesn't get better, and that's why I experimented a bit. It was more work, of course, but it was incredibly fun. Otherwise, I'm getting a big package in the mail these days with new Pokémon cards. A new set has been released, and I'm finally looking forward to opening Pokémon cards properly again. The last time I opened Pokémon cards was in Japan, and that was over a month ago, really over a month ago since I was in Japan. Um, yes, I also have a really good tip for all viewers, and that is Raw Dog, and I know that sounds extreme, [laughter] but what I actually mean by that is, Raw Dogging in 2025 means just sitting down [laughter] and doing nothing. Nils is dying right now, but please only Raw Dog if you're ready for a family and responsibility, otherwise I would advise against it, [laughter] I'm talking about just sitting down in the morning, and I've actually done that the last few days. In the morning, after getting up, don't go on your phone, but sit on your couch and do nothing. And I did that on Wednesday, I think, I just sat for an hour [laughter] I just sat in the living room. I noticed things that I had never noticed before, and afterwards, and this is not a joke, so seriously, jokes aside, I had the most productive day in a long time afterwards, I was also much more creative, and I worked really focused, because what you do in that moment, when you're really doing nothing, is like, imagine you're running a marathon, you're at the starting line, and in front of you, you're still being held back, you have a rope, a band on your stomach, and this band is cut, and suddenly you start running because you have so much energy. That's how it is with your dopamine level. When you're bored, your body doesn't get dopamine, and then you have the energy to start the day. If you go on your phone first thing in the morning, you swipe. That causes your body to release a lot of dopamine. If you then work, if you want to concentrate, you can forget about it completely, because your body is already used to something completely different. It wants more of that dopamine. You've already hacked your body in that moment. And if you do the exact opposite, if you do nothing, if you dare to go into boredom, if you dare to raw dog time, it will give you a lot of energy, um, to be creative and also to work with concentration. So, regardless of the funny name, it's really a ten out of ten recommendation. And also, the thing is, Nils, you take power back from everyday life by breaking out of it a bit, because otherwise, you get up in the morning, and you have your routine, you have your daily routine, we talked about that last week, and you're completely trapped, you're pushed back and forth by the to-dos, and by doing this, you give yourself time not to be pushed around for a moment. And suddenly you can think. You, you're slowing down your start to the day, and that's really, really helpful. No, I think so too, I think it's really exciting, jokes aside. So, I saw this for the first time about one or two years ago, that people on planes really said, I'm raw dogging. So, in principle, I'm sitting here and doing nothing. They don't even drink, so they don't distract themselves, they just do nothing. I find it quite exciting because, in principle, it's exactly this topic of dopamine, where I have to say that something like that would also do me good, because I'm very productive, but I rush from one to-do to the next, and instead of coming down at the end, I reward myself with even more dopamine. You know what I mean? Um, and therefore, I find it super exciting, and I have a question for you. Um, yes, do you, in the, so this is not meditation, so you're not trying not to think, but you consciously sit down, you sit on the couch, all distractions, no phone, of course, and you sit there for an hour doing nothing, but you're thinking, you're brainstorming a bit, you're thinking, right? Exactly. So, I did nothing for an hour yesterday and the day before yesterday. Today, a hybrid hour or so was enough for me, where I just did nothing, just sat there, and if something comes to mind, I write it down, with pen and paper, not digitally. Then I put it away again, and otherwise, I just sit there. And I think it doesn't have to be an hour, 20 or 30 minutes is also enough, it's just about, take some speed out and focus. And the thing is, Nils, when you're too much in everyday life and in routines, you lose sight of the big picture, because you're so caught up in the to-dos, and it also gives you the opportunity to take a step back, and that's why I found it very, very cool. I mean, they say for a reason that you have the best ideas in the shower, because you're really, you also have sound. You hear the water running, and you can't be distracted by music or anything. No, I think it's totally cool. There's a meme, Lukas, where someone asks, and what do you do when you're at home? D says, sit, brother, sit. Just sit. And it was edited with cats, so it's like, what do you do when you're at home, and then a cat, which is just sitting there, says, sit, brother, just sit. [laughter] Cool. I see, I see that with your cats too. But Nils, what I also wanted to tell you is, happy name day. Happy name day, because your name day is on December 6th, and I did some research on your name. I first considered whether I should do it at the beginning of the episode. Exactly. And I didn't know that. And listen. December 6th is the traditional name day, which coincides with St. Nicholas' Day, and Nils is a Nordic short form of Nicholas. Nils. And now listen. I was on the Wikipedia page for Nils, and the name Nicholas is composed of the Greek words Nike for victory and Laos for people. Yes, so your name means victory and people. What you do with that, you can think about it now, but I just wanted to tell you. In any case, you can also congratulate Nils on his name day in the comments. In addition to the questions you have, for the name day. Exactly and [laughter] yes, cool, I thought I'd just share a bit of trivia. Happy name day, Nils. Yes, thank you very much, Lukas. When is your name day? Mine is on October 17th, by the way. Ah, yes, happy belated name day. Thanks. [laughter] Cool. It was incredibly fun again, Lukas. And we have to say, next week is already the last episode of Schlieper and Bode for this year. Yes, crazy. And this is the first time we'll actually take a short break. So, the very first time, we've really met every week and uploaded an episode every week. Next week, there will be the year-end review. Then, um, during the Christmas season, we want to give you the opportunity to not absorb so much knowledge. You don't have to learn about business all the time, and no, we'll spare you a bit of input. You need to pause for the Christmas holidays, spend time with your family, and in January, we'll start again properly. I'm looking forward to it, I'm looking forward to next week. It will be the Schliepa and Bode year-end review, so be sure to tune in. It will surely be the coolest episode. And in that sense, I think so too, Lukas, we'll hear from each other again next week. Have a good week. See you next week. Take care. Bye. Bye bye. Bye.