New World Order + Black British Cultures - Lin Mei

Yeah. What? The digital ID U-turn.

Yeah, digital ID U-turn. You called it.

What? Sorry. You called it. I told you this stuff was not going to happen.

I think I think we very diplomatically got the line right on that day. The best. Cuz I I said that like I understand why they want to do this, but I don't think it's politically possible. Capital. It's not within the instinct of the Labour Party. It's not the instinct of the government. The best defense of it I heard was Ed Maban on LBC.

What did he say?

Governments make mistakes all the time. [laughter] That was literally the only defense of the goal policy. I thought, you know what? Fair play.

Fair enough.

What's Left? Back again in the stew season. Blood clot two. Are you back? [laughter]

We're back. We're back sooner than expected as well. Yeah, cuz we were planning on taking a little break, but it's been going. Everything's been going crazy since we decided to take some time off from What's Left HQ. So, we're back again.

What's Left HQ?

Well, I [laughter] mean the Romy HQ. The thing is, yeah, we've been in so many different studios now. I don't even know where home is.

I'm moving like a. I do like this [laughter] one. As I said, this one does me sweet, so I can't really complain.

Hey, man, we can make this look. We're looking at myself on the screen right now looking great. So, yeah, I didn't. It's. It's been um a crazy start to 2026. Um, but first and foremost, Jay, how are you?

Happy New Year. Yeah, I'm good. Um, I'm not going to lie, I'm actually already exhausted. There's too much stuff to think about. Um, but I had a nice Christmas. I had a nice time. So, yeah. What about yourself?

Good. Yeah, I'm good. I feel like it's going to be quite a big year for us. You know, we put a lot of effort into last year to try and build something new and it's. It feels really amazing to have a little bit of momentum and that people are listening.

People are listening, engaging, chatting. [ __ ] So, have you been recognized yet?

Uh, yeah. There've been a few kind of What's Left in the world. Yeah. So, shout out to those people.

I got stopped on New Year's Eve, bro. Really? In France? Yeah, actually. I was at a party over New Year's and someone stopped me and said hello and I I don't know. I was like, "You shouldn't be seeing me here."

Really? Why? Why? How you naughty boy? No photos. Yeah. [laughter]

Yeah. Some some kid. I was walking past him in this club um on New Year's Eve and he was like, "Yo, cuz I just wanted to say like I watched the episode with Jordan and George." And I was like, "Nice in France, bro, of all places." And he was like, "Yeah, I actually he was on the same flight as me." He was like, "I saw the flight but I didn't want to disturb you." I was like, "Dude, you feel free to disturb you whenever you want."

Yeah. Whenever, man.

But, um, yeah, I mean, obviously, it's good to feel like we're cutting through right now. One of the changes this year, guys, is What's Left is now on Substack. So, if you want to get exclusive content, if you want to see the whole interview, unedited, extra content, want to chat to us, talk to our guests for future episodes, please move over there and get involved. And thank you so much for your support for everyone who does.

Very much so. Yeah. So Jay, what to talk about first in 2026? There's about 500 different things we could choose, but I think number one on the list is we've got to talk about what Trump's been doing in the White House.

This is after Venezuela on New Year's Day before that blowing up Nigeria. My boy's doing some madness in Iran. So yeah, I think there is a lot to cover.

Well, look, [snorts] on the on the Iran stuff, I think probably feels like most relevant right now since that's what's kind of like acting. It is crazy how much [ __ ] has gone on in the time since we broke up.

It's always this time of year, isn't it? New Year. People are like, you know, wake up. It's. It's like the political powers are like, it's time for you not to take notice about what's happening next.

Yeah. I think I don't know like the Christmas Day strikes in Nigeria and then the New Year's Day came.

The Nigerian ones flew under the radar. This is what I find amazing. Like there was like a shock and all policy that took place over the Christmas period and we were all very much awake to it whilst being very much kind of chilled out and asleep and doing our own thing that like these lot started 2026 as well going on. What the hell was Nicki Minaj doing? Bro.

Have the utmost respect and admiration for our president. Although the kind of fanatical Christian thing is such a Caribbean thing to do. So when I see that she's Triny or from Jamaica or whatever it is, I'm like, I see that for you.

We got to talk to this talk to our guest about [laughter] today, bro. This is relevant. This is relevant stuff. Um, so yeah, I mean, look, I want to talk a little bit about uh the uh arising of this multipolarity, this multi-olar world order, which is how it's been currently described. Um, we've been speaking about this different emergence of world powers, a return to spheres of influence for quite a while on this show. So, I hope it wasn't a surprise to any of our viewers or listeners when this stuff has started to unfold. But, I think it's really clear, isn't it? Trump is underwater in polls. Uh, he's not popular right now on his domestic agenda. There is a need and there's always been an attraction for American presidents to flex the muscles and the power of the American military-industrial complex when they are in positions of need. And I think that's what's going on right now. I think that this this this ability to show that we can just do this and no one can stop us is about him trying to project power on a world stage to deflect from the difficulties that are happening at home. But I think it's a bit more than that in that the prime the prime minister the president he's trying to refashion the world in a Trumpian worldview. So as much as it's an exercise of power and an assertion of dominance the whole thing seems like a narcissistic reflection to ensure that this Donald Trump hedgemony just stands and is established in every part of the hemisphere. And I think we've gone from something of a multipar polarity world which you've kind of suggested to a hemispheric world. To me it's very much the West now pitted against the East or the West Europe and the East which I think we're seeing with the kind of Iran dynamics, the increasing conversation around China and then naturally the kind of Russia conversation and Greenland and everything else.

Yeah. I mean, it's different to the um Cold War like the iron. I don't think people are going to be talking about an iron curtain this time around, right? Like the the borders are different. The borders are new. The satellite states that the Soviets used to have within the Western Hemisphere which were you know the reason why they were there were to arrest American power projection to say actually we are players in this stage as well. That is being undone before our eyes. And I think obviously Venezuela they had a strong relationship with Russia. Maduro expected Putin to be there to support him. They expected the Russian intelligence services to be able to give them um you know a warning of the fact that this attack was going to come that he was going to get taken out. It never came. Iran the same. It never came. Right. Something has changed here fundamentally. Right. And one one thing you could say is that perhaps Putin and Russia they're overextended at the moment in Ukraine with their focus of the intelligence services and the military is is is being focused on that front. So they don't have the bandwidth to look at what is happening in Iran, what happened in Syria. Again, the Syri, you know, Bashar al-Assad expected, I believe, to have some support from Russians. All they were saying was come get on a flight to Moscow, son. And apparently now he's he's he's um he hasn't got enough money to stay in any hotels. I don't know if you. Yeah, that's [snorts] the story of with with Assad. So, something is happening here that is seismic and new.

Which is that the Monroe Doctrine, which we've spoken about on the podcast before, but it's this idea that in the Western Hemisphere, there is no threat to the United States goes back to the 1800s. This um policy, ever since America's been powerful enough to enforce it, they have moved to ensure that there are no threats, no adversaries to the US in that part of the world. And Venezuela obviously stood out as a rogue state who don't want to be in the significant oil reserves, no less.

No less. And as you talked about just then, shaping in the image of the deal maker. Of course, there is a transactional bent to what's going on here.

I mean, and he's so brazen and blatant about the whole thing. He literally is stating, I'm doing this for oil and American companies are going to take charge of it. You couldn't be more obvious about your intentions and I think we've seen at any point throughout history probably where there's been an argument for democracy or as much as kind of despotic regime change is also an aspect of it. There is very much a view that we are doing this for oil and it's just going to enrich the American public.

There's no moral posturing.

No, not at. There's no attempt to say this is actually about our liberal values or that we're working within the confines of international law and actually this is legitimate which was the framework that was used in Iraq. It's also how successful they've been able to manipulate an image of Maduro within the space of what 21 days from being somebody who's an inconvenience and has a human rights abuse record to someone who is this violent vicious character fundamentally against American interests, poses a legitimate threat to the United States. All of this has been curated as he's been washed ashore to the United States, which I find quite interesting. Yeah, cuz they were framing it about drugs.

Exactly.

I think that narrative has really fallen by the wayside now. In any case, America hasn't got a massive cocaine problem. It's got a fentanyl problem. That's coming from Mexico, not through Venezuela. Right. Um,

But yeah, I mean, look on Maduro, that Nike tech fleece. Fair play, bro. [laughter] Been flying off flying off the shelves, boy. You know what I'm saying? Halloween is locked down this year.

I'm not going to lie. He kind of looked hard.

He looked hard. He looked. He looked [laughter] He looked hard. I mean, someone um tweeted that it's technically uh torture to deprive somebody's senses [laughter] of the. He didn't look like he was getting tortured, bro. He was just he looked like he was just chilling in the tech fleet. But yeah, look man, I think this is an important juncture in what a lot of foreign policy analysts knew was coming, which was that America wants Europe and the rest of the world to know that this is a world of hard power and unless you have those means, you don't have a seat at the table.

But did Europe really know this was coming? Because we saw some of the mapping of this the mapping we saw some of this um projected to us late last year when the government released what was the the document that the Trump government released.

The national security.

The national security strategy and even then I think Europe was still to a point complacent about how they will enact any of this stuff will they even enact any of this stuff. And there hasn't been a cohesive response and now all of a sudden NATO is potentially under threat. Europe troops on Greenland. They're dropping troops. Sweden and Denmark are dropping troops on Greenland in case there's an invasion by a NATO ally.

Yeah. But I think I think when you look, if you speak privately to European um analysts um and we've got I've got friends who work in the EU, the they've been worried about this since the chance of Trump coming back post uh the uh January 6th and the capital insurrection. They've been concerned about this. Um, [snorts] why does it feel like there is uh a separation between the rhetoric of the Europeans and Trump? They don't feel like they've got a robust strategic response to what Trump is saying. It's because Europe has vasilized. And we've been speaking about this from a UK context, but it it exactly the same anywhere you go in Europe.

It's subservient to its American overlord.

We are subservient to to Trump, Daddy Trump, as Mark Rutter, the general secretary of NATO put it. You know these these guys hold the cards. Why? Because we have nowhere near the same defensive capabilities as the US. In fact, our defensive capabilities are contingent on the US. So the UK's nuclear summary, I think this the salience of this stuff is now going up. People are actually learning this. The Trident program, our nukes are serviced by America.

[snorts]

So if you're an Atlanticist, someone who believes in the longevity of the UK's relationship with the US, you know, you you are fully aware at least in terms of if you're working in Whitehall about how much security is contingent on the United States. Exactly. And I think one of the great regrets of the UK in the 21st century will be the extent to which it hollowed out its own infrastructure in support of the Americans and in so doing has conceded any political ground, any autonomous political ground that we may exercise around the world in light of the fact that we have the Commonwealth, which I'm sure we'll speak about going further, but in light of the fact that we have good relationships with people around the world, we've conceded all of that to to the militaristic might of the US and I think that's quite unforgettable indictment. Yeah. I mean, I think the belief was within Westminster regardless of which party was involved was that there would not be a reality in which the strategic interests of the UK passed fully apart from the strategic interests of the US. It's [snorts] happened.

And we were warned about this ever since 2016 really. I mean Trump has Trump has been speaking quite consistent terms since the first. I mean he was talking about Venezuela in the first administration anyway right? So we've had time to think about this but how do you actually fix it when you don't have any strategic autonomy when you don't have the money for instance to invest into your own domestic into your own domestic military capabilities one of the big you know moves of the EU and the UK recently was to up the uh percentage of GDP spending on defense. But the problem is with that um move is that most of that money in procurement, military procurement is being wasted anyway.

How so? What on domestic?

So we have a domestic budget for and and a lot of it what we get for how much we put in is ridiculous.

Ridiculous.

And a lot of those companies are American. So what we've done now is we've said we have to spend this much money more money. We don't have the right places to spend it. And the market's only in the States.

Only in the. Yeah. So we've basically said we're just going to give these lot more money to invest in in systems that are again dependent on them.

Yeah. It is madness. It is pure pure madness. But these are the policy decisions that have been made over and over and over again. Hence why Europe says nothing looks spineless, you know, and Trump knows that and his thing was, you know, I'm going to call your bluff and I'm going to expose you lot about how dependent you really are. Those bluffs were called when he started imposing tariffs on the European Union and on the UK and when we thought we were slightly better off given we hadn't had the same extent of tariffs at other places around the world. He was calling our bluff many months before he was starting to militarily advance his interest in parts of NATO. So I think there's a a full hardiness on the part of the UK to misunderstand his intentions and really where his allyship is and it is entirely to his project.

That um security document, the US strategic defense document is really important because in that document it says the US plan to cultivate resistance in Europe for types of politics that are against their interest.

Well, they want nationalist politics really. Isn't that to fragment the cohesive organization of the European Union? Could it not be seen as such?

I think it's I think it definitely is. I mean the it is existential. What they're saying is the current European trajectory in that according to that document is not one of these guys have different interests to us. This is a national security problem.

Well, it's of competing interest.

Because of demographic replacement i.e. because of migration. So what they're saying is native white European populations. The more that those the complexion of that society changes because of inward migration, the more those societies become a threat to the US. And if we're seeing what the US is now doing to its threats, what does that mean for the rest of Europe?

The shining light on the hill or whatnot that they like to consider themselves. They I think people like JD Vance see America as the new Europe. They see Britain and the European continent racked with a migration uh crisis as you've said and so they now are the civilized enlighteners of the Western Hemisphere and they're leaving people like us by the wayside because we no longer fit that American ideal I don't think.

Yeah. But the American ideal has shifted from.

Which is deeply racialized by the way.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It's become racialized in a way that of course America's got a deep history with racism. But if you really think about the founding fathers and what they were suggesting within their republican values, it was that if you believed in the values and you came from Europe that's that was the massive caveat.

And you came from white Europe, you could be American. Whereas now what they're saying is regardless of your belief in values, there's been some blood and soil fusing between these white European migrants who've become American over the last 300 years. And now that there is an American, you know, nationalist grounded in history identity that's racialized.

Ethnic identity.

They didn't even originally boy.

Which I found striking given that I think Mr. Trump said, "Just because you landed in a boat in Greenland 500 years ago doesn't mean that you were in the land." [laughter]

This guy.

Incredible, isn't it? But I don't think it's lost on him that the irony of that. I think he enjoys.

Yeah. He very much enjoys it. He enjoys the satire. He knows it's going to rub people up the wrong way. [laughter] But, you know, if you look to Iran now, um, and what's going on there, there've been estimations that up to 12,000, uh, Iranian citizens have been killed in repression of the current anti-regime protests. Um, that is a massive number of people if true. I think it's important to kind of think here about what happens next because we've we've seen regime changes many times throughout history. And often what is sold with a promise of hope descends into chaos, creates a power vacuum and then all hell breaks loose. And the big question now is firstly in Venezuela the raging change has happened. So let's see what happens next with Deli Rodriguez who is the second in command who's now become um the president of Venezuela. Will she bend the knee to the US's oil interest? Will she make sure that everything runs smoothly? Will it descend into chaos? And in Iran, my understanding is that there won't be any regime change without foreign intervention. And so the US has to make a calculation about whether they're going to directly intervene or not.

Now, direct intervention is I'm I'm going to distinguish between two different things that the US government can do right now. So, as we record this episode, and by the time this goes out, it probably will have changed, but there is a blackout on communications in Iran. People can't communicate. There's no internet. [snorts] So, one form of intervention they could do, which I imagine they will do, is that Elon Musk will put up a Starlink satellite and they will turn the internet on, which is a form of interference, right? Because what they're essentially doing is enabling the organization of revolutionary anti-regime forces.

Mhm.

Another option for them to do would be some form of air strikes, military capability, you know, via Israel, most likely. [snorts] They haven't opted for that course of action. The reason I think they haven't opted for that is because they know that as soon as the bombs start falling and and civilians start getting indiscriminately bombed, the mood would can change amongst those re revolutionary forces.

Into an anti-American sentiment.

Into an anti-imperialist anti-American sentiment. They're already walking this a very interesting tight rope where someone like the sha of Iran.

So his descendant Resi Palavi II was the was the uh head of Iran when he was deposed in 1979 by the first revolution. His son now is the kind of bullwalk figure about a return to a monarchist regime.

He is his name is being heard on the streets and people are shouting him out. My understanding of this was that amongst the power brokers in Iran, many of the educated classes in particular, this guy's a joke.

The king.

He's been considered a joke, you know, forever in since since the revolution, right? You know, they they remember why the revolution happened. A quick explainer on the revolution. Uh, the sha was wonderfully corrupt. It's kind of typical. He was in the pocket of the West.

Having massive parties in the desert, I think.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is also not restrained to just Iran. I've heard that happens a lot in the Middle East amongst the ruling classes. But they were corrupt. There was increasing wealth inequality in the country. There was uh anger. Uh, there were very desperate forces who wanted to revolt. There was also brutal state repression. So all of the same things that have coalesced again this time round.

And are typically the recipes for revolutionary activity anyway.

History repeats. So why am I talking about the shot? The reason I'm talking about is because it's really interesting that this person who was basically considered a joke is now being considered as someone who could be a legitimate cohering force by some on the outside. I think internally in Iran it would still be difficult given the disperate nature of the people who are wanting to uh revolt against uh the autocratic Islamist Shiite regime. I think the likelihood is there is this is going to end in a very brutal state repression of the kind that Saddam Hussein did.

That bloody you suspect.

So that that repression they think upwards of 150,000 Iraqis were killed by the regime which is.

Horrifying.

I mean it is an astounding number. They don't know for for certain how many people died, but George Bush Senior, they had the opp the opportunity after Operation Desert Shield, I think, or Desert Storm, whichever it was called, to go into Iraq and to depose Saddam. And there were advisers, hawks at the time of saying, "Go now is the time to strike." But he didn't want to do it. And so what they did was they encouraged the the Iraqis there and said, "Rise up, you know,

Against your government.

Against your government." And.

Yeah, and fight and kill, you know, fight and and and.

Overthrow your government. [snorts] And what happened? They when they needed the help, it didn't turn up and a lot of people died and it wasn't forgotten. You know, I don't doubt that the Iranian regime right now is on its way irreversibly to to being overthrown. But if you look at just the way the power brokers are right now, the people you would need to have a proper revolution, you need people in the revolutionary guard to decide that now's the time. People with military support and military power to to change their minds and and back the and back regime change.

Intellectuals, political leaders.

Yeah. Those of movement and communities. It's not just a kind of vanguard of a small cabal who's willing to take state power.

Yeah. And also the intellectuals tend to not have weapons. So they. And that that.

Weapons of the mind.

Yeah. But that hence doesn't help when you're in a come fight big man. Um, so we'll see what happens there. I'm not holding my breath for regime change yet in Iran. But I do think that that destabilization is going to be is going to have some big knock on effects.

And I guess do you then expect the United States to take a more prominent role in any of that or do you think the United States could instigate regime change and much like you said with the Iraqis, leave those people to kind of fend it out for themselves?

I think the likelihood is that they're they're letting them they're going to let them see how the cards land. I think in their book if there if if plenty of them die, Iranian civilians, they would feel vindicated in portraying the Iranian regime as evil and which they are totalitarian justify which they of course they are.

But.

Which yeah naturally justifies any form of foreign intervention.

Further down the line.

But the problem is is that that's a very firstly, you know, and this is something that Aaron Bastani would would might argue about for instance cuz the thing that I've heard Bastan Bastani who half Iranian talk about a lot is that this is the consequence of crippling sanctions. So in his book, you know, it's not just that the Iranian regime is, you know, morally bankrupt, corrupt, whatever, uh, brutally repressive. It can be all of those things, but because of the nature of how crippling the sanctions regime has been on in Iran, we have precipitated the conditions by which things can get worse and more people can die. Aren't inflation rates upwards of 40% or something?

I've.

It is ludicrous. I mean, the economic crisis in Iran.

Unemployment, all of it. Yeah.

But also, it's not lost on the Iranian citizens, right? That Iran sends money, pays for the wages of Hezbollah.

So, you can be a proxy fighter in in Lebanon and you're getting paid however many times the average salary of an Iranian citizen. you know, these guys know, you know, a lot of these people do not want to be fighting a big proxy war, but it is existential for the regime who literally say in their declaration that they are against the state of Israel, right? So.

That this I'm there's no clean I don't think analysis about what's happening here. But I think what's happened, and this is why 2026 was going to be a very different year to to the past two or three, is that the anti-imperialist cohort of the commentary app.

Will be faced with the people who aren't, you know, the Venezuelans or the Iranians, whatever, doing some really [ __ ] up [ __ ].

They're going to see brutal state repression like this. And it's it it is. It's going to change the the kind of moral picture, I think, of the conversation. It is interesting to see I guess where does an internationalist left go from here with all the politics of anti-imperialism and in the case of Maduro a kind of explicitly socialist project how accommodating people may be of deeply unsavory practices because it approximates themselves to a particular idea of the world or whatever. And I'm curious to see how does this develop the left more broadly. Um, not just within the kind of mainstream left, but even when we're thinking about advances of potential your party and the people that may be interested in left.

Talking about your party.

Well, no. I mean, I just think it.

You think they're relevant still?

No, I don't think they're relevant at all. I think they're increasingly irrelevant. But what I would say.

It's all loud on Twitter.

There are people Yeah, there's obviously loud on Twitter, but there will be people who in this country will still be attracted to them because they see the international affairs and feel as though that that is a coherent leftwing project that could be implemented here is what I'm trying to say. If that makes sense. Because there's a very skewed reading of anti-imperialism that I think parts of the left embrace that can very quickly if not addressed become part of a body politics that is legitimized in elections or something of that sort.

Which is to say in what in practice what sort of policies do you think that they what sort of policy platform would they argue?

Well, I mean apology of particular regimes because they are.

Anti-Western.

Yeah, exactly. And and they have a very heavy reading a heavy Western critique of society today and some of those things may be legitimate and I think much of it is deeply illegitimate but there is there's a cohort of voters and interested people who are willing to try and enact some of those things whether it's in a local authority or.

In national parliaments.

Well, I think that's part of the reason why there is more quiet on the activist fringe of the left when talking about Iran because of the discomfort of you know there are some some people who are just so anti-ionist in their politics that they will not critique anyone who is seen to be a facilitator of um what's it resistance against the Zionist entity as they put it right? Which is to say that because Iran funds Hamas and the Houthis and they are legitimate.

My friend enemy is my friend or something.

Yeah. Yeah. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Yeah. Classic. And I I think that that does explain a little bit of the quiet about around some of those very vocal activist clivisty on the Instagram stories sort of people about what's going on in Iran because.

That is their own you know, they are so ideological about that that they can't politics.

Yeah. Which is I think a politics of racism if if you really if you really dig deep into.

But it's also a deeply simplistic view of the world which renders anything to a left a left right binary or an East versus West or a kind of postc colonial versus a colonial world order or however they see it. I think there is a a coalition or at least an allegiance between some radical, very radical communist type leftists and Islamists, you know, where they say something along the lines of this system that we live under is corrupt and it's broken and so we will do anything to overthrow it. And I think, well, it's less of a communist thing, but a very particular anti-imperialist reading that originates in what I see to be a deep hatred of Western society. And it's really nothing more than that is how I see it is because they don't have the ability to recognize all of the nuance that history has developed to this point in time and are willing to concede any intellectual ground just because they don't believe in it and they have an instinct that the West is inherently bad which I just don't believe in.

Yeah. Yeah. I think I think that is exactly it. They they really believe that our society is the most evil thing that needs to be dismantled immediately and so they can make a coalition together. But I think what's interesting is as I said earlier in the power vacuum that emerged post the 79 revolution in the run-up to it hi who the Ayatollah before Kamei was firstly not in Iran he was outside of Iran and he was broadcasting stuff against the regime right? And Kmeni was saying basically that he was a man to represent all people and that all of the the different factions who were opposed to the sha He was their unifying candidate.

Really interesting.

And then what happened [laughter] as soon as the revolution happened? Round them up, murder them.

Textbook Stalinism textbook, right? Like when the power vacuum emerges, take your most powerful um competitors and kill them off.

Knock your opponents out.

Yeah. Kill them off.

Awful. So, I'm just saying that like be careful what you wish for, you know, and that people can be, you know, um, wolves in sheep's clothing, you know.

I do think that would be the lesson of 2026 is just being careful what you wish for because.

There are going to be no say for Trump, right? Cuz Trump has destabilized the world. He's in he's instituted regime change in one country and it looks like regime change in another whilst affirming and stabilizing his own position on the world and also destabilizing his own country. If you look at what's going on right now with you know the ICE murdered that woman who was driving away in the car. Like America is is a tinder box and it's getting worse, right? Like he's consistently choosing the more authoritarian option of being able to manage and leverage his power over all others. So the be careful what you wish for. You know, you've got power, you're exercising it. But if you make the world just so clearly transactional about if you can, you know, control this, you know, this outcome, then you can do what you want. Be careful what you wish for cuz see how people will behave in a world where God is dead and there are no morals.

I've been reading a bit of St. Augustine recently.

Really? [laughter]

How come? From what perspective? Uh I just I find his views of sin deeply interesting.

Augustine of Hippo.

And yeah, top man.

North African isn't common.

Um.

I think maybe because of how crazy the world is becoming the concept of an omnipresent God I find challenging. But I do believe that there is a moral choice to make between actively partaking in sin against trying to do some form of good. And I think with that moral framework, it's allowing me actually to understand the world a bit better in line with my own views. And Trump and all of these things that are going on to me is the expression of like it's the manifestation of a St. St. Augustine worldview of what is sin and evil against what is good and potentially an enlightened godly path to take.

Interesting because Augustine like Malcolm X lived a life of hedonism.

Mhm. Yeah. Well, that's what I found interesting was that my mom was clinging out clinging g.

Yeah. What 390 BC or whatever 80? That's it. [laughter]

Yeah. He he was he was getting about like Malcolm X clotting bear [laughter] and then they turned then they turned to religion. Trump on all accounts was not only doing that but also else.

And turning to badness.

And and has doubled down on the badness. [laughter] So I think the I think the fact is we live in a decadent world full of hedonism and there's a choice to be made now for all of us who've been down this path which is are we going to choose the more enlightened option or we going to double down?

Yeah. And in a world where God is dead, the choice is.

Well, all is permitted.

Definitely ours.

Yeah.

Okay. I was just going to snap straight in.

I'm going to snap straight in because Lyn, what time do you call this?

S.

1 hour. An hour.

I know. 45.

I'm going to say there's some stereotypes that I can lean into right now.

And I'm happy to wear that with pride. [laughter]

So, you come all the way from from working from home life. Mhm.

Into the studio today. I was thinking about what's the best way to kind of introduce you to the audience, but you're broadcaster, contrarian.

People have said that.

Landlord. [laughter]

Yeah.

And very much headstrong about your opinion, which we love.

Which is the one that gives you the most grief?

What area of work?

Um, all for different reasons, I guess. Cuz when I work in public sector, I used to work on the front line and um I deal with so many different sorts of people. So like I've had a sword held up to me, locked in a house. I've had someone jump over and try to attack me in a court hearing. So that's pretty stressful, but then all the way to getting dragged online.

Sword held up to you. You're going to have to unpack that one for me.

Yeah. So I started working in housing about 14 years ago and just like a very entry level um and being on the front line as a like housing officer you have to deal with like well not all but I dealt with mixed tenure. So that essentially means that could be like shared ownership, help to buy, dealing with right to buy, but also social tendencies, which comes with a lot of like people that suffer from mental health or like I was a fraud officer and that meant having to go to people's homes that hadn't been in contact with the general public for whatever reason for many years. So you're the first person or contact that they're having and they've ostracized themselves from society for a reason.

So I'm there like, "Hi."

So you baiff? [laughter]

Yeah.

I wasn't even a baiff. No, I was, you know what? I found it really um interesting. I especially like I would go in and I'd sit down for an hour and have a chat. And then like you know you really learn and understand people from like your workingass white nan who's 90 who's got no kids and is extremely lonely to your to your like road man who his flats been overtaken for cuckooing for county lines. Like you just see it all in housing.

So.

Is that across London or is that mainly in Essics or?

No, London.

That was in London.

So yeah.

Do you think that radicalized you to your current political position? Because I found out a piece of information about you that didn't.

Oh yeah.

Did you used to work for the Labour Party?

Yeah.

That's mad.

Mad three of us. [laughter]

Three of us.

Yeah. In Tottenham. I used to be a BA officer.

Bame officer for the Labor. You got paid for that.

Yeah.

What's So what does a BAME officer do? Because I feel like you hate identity politics.

You hate Labor, right? Do.

You know what? It's not that I hate identity politics. I hate when it's placed in front of anything else.

Do you know what I mean? Explain that. Okay, for example, I don't mind if someone says the first woman to go to the moon or the first black scientist or whatever the case may be. But what I don't like is when it's like used as a banner for your entire identity. Like take if if I take away who like you being a man, you being straight or gay, you being Asian, black or white or whatever. I'm sure many think that [laughter]

If I take those things away, I should still be able to have a lot of substance for you. Do you know what I mean?

It's used as an excuse sometimes character because I'm X, I should be able to do Y.

And I think um but it's not do you know what? It's not even just like ethnic communities or whatever. We've seen it everywhere now. Like I'm a working-class white guy and I'm a victim or I'm a black person still suffering from slavery like or all these different things. And I think yeah, everyone has gone through things and I don't think we should do you know.

So what do you say to the black guy who's still suffering from slavery?

How do you know you are? If I if you were to be born and no one ever told you that 500 years ago some of your ancestors were potentially slaves, how would you know that you're suffering from it? But is it not in your culture and almost the generational trauma that some may argue that's been passed down over generations? You wouldn't have to be told to know that.

I think you would have to be. Really? Do you think so?

Yeah. I think Well, obviously if you're being told by your whole community, you're going to be subjected to it and exposed to it. But let's say for example, you I I was homeschooled and I didn't really hear about any of these things and my father was born in Barbados. I was born in Barbados, my mother was born in Pakistan. So we're if you like I'm still like first gen. M.

So when I moved to like Tottenham and I started growing up and hearing all this like um identity politics or um civil rights movement or issues with the police, f the police or all the history of slavery, it was new to me. So and when I asked my dad like how come you haven't told me as much as I hear from British black people about slavery, he was just like cuz at some stage you have to move on. I wouldn't want you to lead in life with, you know, however, when I went to Barbados, I could go to certain period properties like plantation houses and I would find my surname there. Do you know what I mean? So, I think the same goes for like the police and the black community, the British black community, because what I can't stand is people saying the black community or certain communities and they're extremely different. So all my Caribbean family who have come here but they weren't born here do not really relate to like third and fourth generation black British people.

We we don't see.

English boy, you know that one.

Yeah. Like [laughter] when when I come here it's like no. Yeah. No, it's true though. But.

It's facts. I mean.

It's and that's why I go back to the whole like um generational trauma when it comes to like the black community and the police. you. And I'm not saying it wasn't justified, but a lot of people in the 70s would tell their children like, "The police are not for you. They're not on your side. F the police. If you see the police, run." Because granted, a lot of black people were battered by the police historically. [clears throat] But if you keep on passing that on, you will create this angst of the police will never be there for you. But then now I've got so many well about several like black friends who are firearms officers. And if you speak to a lot of young black boys who are stabbed, the police have to be first there and they're the ones that often save their lives. But you know, you don't hear that, do you? You don't hear the Mandm say, "Right, I'm going to keep it black 100. I'm alive because of a police officer." You don't hear that.

Yeah. Cuz they're ops.

Well, but this has been created this whole narrative. I'm not saying there isn't racism, but there's issues wherever you go. I went when after I was homeschooled I went to a all black school that I was probably one of the fairest in the school. There was loads of like issues in terms of colorism there.

Interesting.

So there's my point is you're going to it's human nature the us and them theory. You're always going to have issues of.

There's two things I want to ask but firstly at what point did you feel racialized because you moved from Barbados, you gone to Tottenham. At what point did you feel like you were aware of your race as it having an effect on how people were treating you or you thought that it could be?

I don't know because the whole concept of being of mixed origin only came into play in 2001. So most of us who were like millennials we were all whether you were mixed race or not called black. And then there was this whole online conversation like you're not black and well I'm seen as black but you can't speak on black issues. And I'm like, okay, would you.

Say that to Bombali? Like, would you say that to Cara? Would you say that to all the people? Or when you say, "Oh, yeah, this is one of us."

>> The most articulate people ever to speak on race, by the way.

>> But they're mixed race.

>> But I think that's part of the reason why, like speaking as a mixed-race person, the liminal identity allows you to see both sides in a way that sometimes, if you look at you're just part from one part of the community, you have a very different experience, right? You have to experience it from the idea of being different and being distinct. And that expresses the nuance.

>> I think being mixed, you feel, uh, offended for both sides, or like, well, three of my sides. So that's the only difference. I think when you're like, uh, well, no one's hardly anyone's fully black, especially if you're from the Caribbean. But if you consider yourself to be fully black, you're just dealing with people that don't really like black people. But then if, if I'm in a room and someone says something like a joke about white people, it's like, "Oh, you people don't wash. You don't wash your chicken. You don't wash your skin." It's like, well, my family do. [laughter] So, you're constantly having to try and like...

>> But white people do get pred though.

>> I was going to say, what do you say to the like, the Asian side, though? 'Cause I'm like you. I'm half, well, I'm half Indian, but I'm Jamaican Indian.

>> So, my people came from Jamaica time ago, but they look at my dad, they see this Indian man who speaks PWA, who's called Elvis, and who's just a a Yardi. He's just a Jamaican man. And they're so confused. And I feel like you're forced to pick a side. So for me, it's Jamaica, India, Ghana, the UK, all of these heritages. And I notice the Asian side doesn't see me as Asian, whereas the black side is more likely to see me as black. And you're a similar mix.

>> Jamaican Indian, right?

>> Yeah. But we still got the, I'm still going home eating Dalam Rice. All these, you know what I mean?

>> My grandparents are worshiping the same gods. They're just what, 3,000 miles away, wherever it is, from Jamaica to India. So I never felt culturally indistinct from these people, but yet I was made to feel different because ours is just a different representation of a culture from only a 100 years ago.

>> How the community treated...

>> You exactly. And they didn't know. They didn't know. I think I think it's, it's, we, it's, it's funny 'cause if I go to a new workplace and they find out that like my mother was born in Pakistan, they kind of embrace me on the surface, but if I was like, I remember I dated a Pakistani guy and he was just like, "Oh, I don't know how I'm going to introduce you to like my family. They're never going to accept you." So, it's like, uh...

>> taking a lot of racism towards black people as well.

>> You know what? I don't know if it's necessarily, I'm very like careful to say racism. It obviously it could be seen as it, but I think their bigger issue is more religion and culture because the same attitude that Pakistani people have, they have to P.E. people from Bangladesh, who aren't who aren't the same type of Muslim.

>> Yeah, like you, you cannot bring, uh, well, now the new age generation, but historically, you can't bring a Bangladeshi person home if you're Pakistani, or you can't bring, if you're Muslim Pakistani, you can't bring a Sikh person home or Hindu person. So I think it's these cultural like nuances. And then when people place this on ethnic minorities, I have to remind them, let's look at the history of the UK. Like the Jacobites, the Scottish, they hated each other. They actually beat their own language out of them, like Gaelic. So I hate it when there's this idea of, oh, it's just black people, Asian people, everyone hates everyone. Like, let's be frank.

>> You think racism is natural, don't you?

>> I wouldn't say it's natural, but it's more like, I mentioned earlier, the more like, it's us and them. That's innate. That's natural bias.

>> Yeah, exactly. You're naturally going to. It's, it's the same thing of like, when you support a team or a football, you're naturally going to go towards who you feel you can relate to a bit more.

>> Do you know what I mean?

>> Do you not think we should work to try and overcome that, though?

>> You won't be able to.

>> You don't think so?

>> Not at all.

>> We definitely, we've definitely, um, overcome a lot though, in terms of just that inbuilt basis of thinking.

>> I think we, we were, and I think now we've gone back to, yeah. Because now with exposure, more young people are getting involved in politics. So it's not like, oh, what are you a Tory? Or where, when I [clears throat] was maybe 17, no one gave a [ __ ] like...

>> And what, what are you though?

>> I, I don't agree that anyone should be loyal to any party because there's so, they're so movable now. You know, and like, like I said, I worked for the Labour party. I've voted and campaigned with the Brexit party. I would vote for Reform right now, and I voted for Conservative. And if Labour or the Greens did something, if, if their manifesto reflected what I wanted in life, I would vote for the Greens.

>> What would be your three things to reflect what you want in your life?

>> What I want in life, um, uh, taxes.

>> High or lower?

>> Lower. [laughter]

>> Okay.

>> I want lower taxes.

>> You want no taxes?

>> I actually think...

>> Why don't you just move to Dubai then?

>> Because I find Dubai really soulless. Like, I like going into the English countryside and seeing like the period buildings. I like going to the Caribbean and seeing the culture. Like when I went, I love heritage. I love history. When I went to Dubai, I felt like someone pressed a button and a city popped up and that, that's all there is to it. Even like going on the beach, it's like, are you joking? There's massive huge buildings behind. Like my granddad went to Dubai when it was just a desert. Like, I know everything has to start from somewhere, but I felt nothing in Dubai. So I could never live there.

>> Okay. So taxes is one.

>> Taxes is one. Um, I am, what you'd say, is culturally conservative in terms of I don't like a big push of, you know, I like how conservative and Reform are very careful with how children are taught about identity politics. Or like, I have no issues with LGBTQ, but I just don't think any form of sexuality should be taught to children. That's one of the reasons why I left the Labour party because, um, when I was a part of it, it was when Momentum was coming in and we had to have an argument with a guy who wanted to identify as a woman on Wednesdays only, and he got the woman's officer role. And like, there was uproar, rightly so. So for me, that left a bad taste in my mouth. Anything that's a bit more left tends to have those sorts of politics, and I don't, I don't like those sorts of politics.

>> I think that's quite a fringe part of the left that that...

>> Yeah. I'm trying to think about which Labour party you were in and what kind of people were there. Um, I think the kind of fringe cultural stuff is fringe and cultural. I don't think it represents the main kind of stream of the left in this country at all.

>> I, I just, okay, if you, you tell me then, if you were to say, what are the main three to four left-wing policies, let me see if I can relate or like any of them.

>> Okay, that's good.

>> Economic redistribution to some of the poorest in society.

>> Okay.

>> [laughter] That's not for you.

>> What? No.

>> What does that look like? Taxing.

>> Well, it looks like, yeah. Well, taxing people with the broader shoulders. And I think that is becoming increasingly hard to locate because, as you know, you could be a graduate in London on 100k, but tuition fees, which is a lively topic at the moment, you could be renting your flat, hard to save, all of those things. So I think there needs to be a reconsideration as to who is actually the wealthy in society. But I think we definitely have have an obligation to the poorest to make sure that they're in receipt of a dignified life like the rest of us.

>> Okay.

>> I think that we should obviously fund our public services. I think that is the, I don't know, the hallmark of a civilization that is respectable, that is humanitarian in its outlook, and also has a vision for humanity going forward that represents decent health, decent education, all of that kind of stuff.

>> The third thing I would say is ensuring that actually, um, the state has the ability to run some of its most effective utilities. So when we're looking at trains, when we're looking at, yeah, nationalizing, but also not just nationalizing, but people have a say in how they're determined. So the state doesn't just have an overarching capacity to run these organizations, but people who consume them, people who work in them actually have some democratic ownership of where they go. And then the final one is, I think on big issues of the day, geopolitics, climate change, there's actually a cohesive response that ensures that Britain is put first. And I don't think...

>> that is, must love that though. Britain first.

>> Well, there has to be a Britain first.

>> Yeah. Not climate change.

>> No. For everything.

>> Geostrategic autonomy to make sure that Britain's protects Britain's interests first and foremost.

>> Yeah. What does that look like geopolitically?

>> Well, at the moment, it means that we have to follow America doing whatever the [ __ ] they want to do.

>> And that's not what it should be.

>> And you don't like that either, 'cause I know I've seen what you've been tweeting about Gaza.

>> No, no, no. 100%. That's probably my most left-wing, what people would say. But my thing is, I kind of understand like, I do not like Keir Starmer as a leader, but I understood his response in recent situations just because, okay, we've left the EU, whether you agree or not, we're here now.

>> If you look at our capabilities in terms of military, we've got nothing.

>> We don't manufacture. We don't create. Our growth just went up by what, 0.1%? Just because of Land Rover. Like that's pathetic. Like one company. So my point is, if we piss off the biggest in the world, which is unfortunately the hugest consumer, America, the China's, the whatever, like who's going to, who's going to back us?

>> Well, that's the problem right now that the motivation of government should be to ensure that we actually have that capacity domestically rather...

>> How would we have that capacity?

>> Well, I think you're right, that is the challenge. To re-industri, I mean, something that I'm quite interested in is reforming the welfare state. That means people have the opportunity to work and be productive, something of that sort, and then they can redistribute the wealth again to the poorest people. Attracting business through some form of competitive levy. I think things like the National Insurance, obviously, was a disastrous policy for industrialization and building our own sovereign tent.

>> I don't think there's that hunger. And I know this sounds really archaic and, you know, not the most positive, but what gets people working is "must needs must." And when you do have, like, again, I've worked with alongside the DWP, the welfare state before. I was in housing, I worked in welfare to work. Um, and I just think where there is that safety net that is too big, in my opinion, it allows people to feel like they don't have to, it work, if that makes sense.

>> Don't you think we've got to a point now where the way our political economies are, there is essentially a class of indentured servitude? So like people who want to, people want to work for like Deliveroo, for instance. You ain't got many natives who are putting themselves forward to be delivering jobs.

>> Don't you think, don't you think that they should be forced to?

>> But this is what's, I think if it paid a wage that was meaningful, then people would do that.

>> What does that look like? Because as far as I'm concerned, the best time, going back to when I was younger, the best time to take a low wage to just have some pocket money, I'm at home. Yeah. Okay. If you're telling me that you're 18 and you've got two kids to look after and a wife, fair enough. I hear you. But more time, that age group, you're at home, you're not really paying bills.

>> You could do something.

>> Then the, that is the perfect time to have a low wage while you don't have those huge responsibilities and work your way up. But I'm speaking to young people that are like, "I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that." My first job was selling bin liners at 17. It was not attractive. The money was not huge. But there was something about the like, the mid-millennials, I'll call them, that we thought we wanted some money. But like, if you look at the welfare recently, we've had the hugest increase from, you know, young people around 24 applying for benefits, but then a year and a half ago, we had vacancies that were like north of a million. So something's going wrong where you have a million vacancies and then you have young people that are like, "Man's not doing that."

>> And then claiming mental health on top of it.

>> But you can go on to TikTok and really see how you can be ADHD.

>> Like, no, I'm [laughter] not going to say that that isn't warranted for some people. But I think this is the era where, where people, unless it's snazzy, flashy, so they can go into a career that's straight, like that's what I want to do. Like, forget this whole want. Like, historically, the reason why people got a job is because they needed to eat. So, I think yes, have a welfare state. Um, I think it's good that there's a, a safety net. One day I might fall on my ass and I might need it, but it should be, I think it should have a limit. Like, you shouldn't be able to just go and apply for benefits and then three years, you're still on it.

>> You think people should be forced into some form of work after that? I'm not going to say dragging, but you shouldn't be able to claim benefits if you're living with your parents who are working and you just can't decide that you want to work. Do you think that is the attitude of the country? Because I was at home over Christmas and like left-wing Labour people who are working-ass people have that exact view. Do you think that is just the spirit of the country or do you think you embrace like a right-wing philosophy to work? 'Cause to me, I don't, I feel like you, you represent me.

>> Pretty normal. Yeah. What you just said, I'm like, we've said the same.

>> I don't like to like, uh, use these banners because if you go, especially outside of London, and you go to these sorts of hardworking, working-class communities, they would see themselves as like, historically Labour, left-wing to a degree. Like, uh, Labour was supposed to be for the working man. Even if you look at working class, there you go. Yeah. So, I think for me, it, it sounds right-wing now 'cause that's what people would say, but let's get back to, okay, you should just have to. And I think people feel motivated when they have to do something. You know, if you know, if you know that you want to be able to go to that first holiday with your boys or your girls or whatever, like, get in, get into a job and you'll realize how fulfilling it is. Even if it's a job you don't like, you'll meet other people. You'll, you'll be able to put something on your CV that's empowering. Going leaving school or A-levels and sitting at home for four years and thinking, "Oh, I haven't found the perfect thing that I enjoy." You're going to fall into depression.

>> So, you think we're just a worksh...

>> 100%.

>> Do you think we're decadent?

>> [sighs and gasps]

>> In, in what? In what way? I know the term, but what...

>> People think there's an argument now, and if you listen to like people like JD Vance and them lot, they would say that the problem with the West is that it spends more than it makes. You know, we, we're hooked on debt. We can't make the numbers add up. We always want more.

>> The ultra-consumer.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I, I think we are the ultra-consumer. And I think, to be honest, like consumer capitalism, I don't see anything wrong with those things if you can back your share. So...

>> Yeah, but we clearly can't right now. Like five...

>> No, I mean from an individual like point of view. If you have worked hard and you want to go Louis Vuitton and get three phones and dispose of them, that you've worked to do that.

>> Get phones at Louis? Do you think?

>> No, I'm saying [laughter] you...

>> But do you think that is like the reality for most people of our generation? Because I just don't recognize that.

>> No, there's a lot of smoke screens. There's a lot of like, uh, it's so funny 'cause again, working on the front line, I, I would regularly go to homes and I wouldn't recognize people from online, and they're living the best dream online, and I'm like, this isn't a reality. So I think there's, there's such a pretense, especially around like, uh, my generation, a bit younger, of "I'm lit, you're not lit."

>> Yeah. Like your style.

>> You know, it reminds me of that meme where it's like Bill Gates's outfit versus guy from the hood, and it's like, his, the only thing that's expensive is his glasses or whatever.

>> But Bill Gates will wear a plain t-shirt and it's £600.

>> Yeah. Low key, innit? But the thing is, is it's less ostentatious.

>> Yeah. But do you know what that is? That that annoys me a little bit as well, because, okay, yes, when you're working class or come from a poor background, you want to prove yourself, right? You want to present as if or project that power. But at the same time, when you look at certain ethnic minorities, historically, we were ostentatious. We were decadent. You just have to go to a Nigerian wedding. You just have to go to like, Asian wedding. Yeah. It's, and that's what I, I'm not that mad at when it comes to America versus Britain. Like, you do well in Britain and you want to show it. It's, it's frowned upon, but in America, it's like celebrated. And I think we need to see more of that because it would give you people, especially the younger generation, like, "Yeah, why can't I show off a bit? I've worked hard for this."

>> Do you think it's a community problem? 'Cause I see a lot of people like us who are just gloating on social media.

>> Not showing off.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of them are young black people. As much as there are as many white people, but at least on my feed, it seems...

>> I think that's, I think that's a culture thing. I don't, not necessarily black, because I, a lot of a lot of black people actually find that repulsive. It's a class thing. And that's another reason why, because we're a small percentage. I say we, but because the black communities are small percentage in the UK, everyone gets bundled together, but you have these sort of subcultures that are very different. And I think the loudest culture is that culture, the the urban, like hip-hop, grime, drill, um, influencer, Love Island, like they're all merging as well.

>> Entertainment industry.

>> Exactly. And it is driven and propelled by a lot of like black people. So it's, it's, it's, it's a good thing and a bad thing, but I am seeing more positive conversations happen now, like, "Bro, you're showing your role, have you got a house?" Or like, those are the, it's, it's progressed a bit. Do you think, do, do you claim credit [laughter] for, for...

>> Smiling, smiling, smiling.

>> 'Cause I, I feel like you get a lot of hate, you know, for a lot of times, you sometimes you'll say something and it will be like, I know you're trying to get a reaction out of people, but it tends to be...

>> Bootstrap yourself. That's your message, is it really?

>> Yeah. Essentially.

>> You know, if you're in the trenches, no one's going to change it for you except you. So do something. That's your message, right? And people like to say, I saw a bouncer say this once about you, that you, you look down on the on the black podcast community, for instance, that you look down on them.

>> Elements of it. I do. I'm not ashamed to say it. Like...

>> Bouncer was like disrespecting Shadeer. He is a one-man Shade Ber now. Do...

>> You know what I mean? I have no issues of people talking whatever they want to talk. But when you have too many people and the output is [ __ ], then it's, it's not great, is it? Like, you have other communities or sects of people that they're talking about property, they're talking about fintech, they're talking about, and then you go on to our area and it's like, who [ __ ] who or who did this or this guy did this. It's like, is there any substance to what's going on? He has posted a few positive things, but I just think...

>> You're going to give him his flowers.

>> I don't know about flowers, [laughter]

>> But you know what it is? I feel like that whole area is from roadman to rapper, attempt at streamer and podcaster. So, it's, it's people who did the roadman life. They either went to prison, got arrested, sold drugs, whatever. Then they tried their hand at music. And if you weren't good at music, you tried to be a music manager. So then that was the like, and then that's kind of evolved and they've realized that streaming can make more money than rappers now, and then they're just grabbing mics and talking whatever they can to, because these types of guys, and it's quite sad, these types of guys can't lend themselves to any form of like real career. They can give entrepreneurship a go. They can try and set up...

>> Is very entrepreneurial. They reinvented themselves. They failed upwards. They've gone, they've g degree.

>> Okay. To a degree, if you want to call it entre, but an entrepreneur is someone that lends themselves to multiple areas and streams of income. And it has to be consistent and regular. The way that the way that people just throw around entrepreneur, are you really an entrepreneur? If I get, if I get...

>> You can't call, if you call yourself an entrepreneur, you're immediately not an entrepreneur. [laughter]

>> These people in your Instagram bio. Shut up, man. You're an entrepreneur. [laughter] You're twerking for the ground.

>> To me, you're not an entrepreneur. If, let's say, if Bouncer or any of these other guys can consistently put out content, generate a decent level of income, and then from that, they elevate and have various different hands in different pies that are all relatively successful, and then they can be a specialist in those areas. To me, that's entrepreneur. You can't just like have a mic and be...

>> But how are you not, how is balance? So, just for listeners who, who listen for politics, Bouncer, how would you describe Bouncer? He's an entertainment first kind of Instagram personality. The guy's clearly talented at at holding people's attention.

>> He's funny. He say...

>> He said, he said the one thing you have, he said the one thing you have on him.

>> One thing that you've got over me is you know how to read. You get me? Yeah. And you're half smart. So there's someone that has, you know, knows how to read that's on national TV. [laughter]

>> I, I, I think if you consistently like Bouncer and you consume Bouncer's content, you're slightly low IQ. That's my view.

>> Really?

>> I like, Yeah, but you don't, you don't consistently only consume Bouncer like content.

>> You, I watch a lot of filthy...

>> Thunders. You will, you will watch it, have a giggle, and then you'll also read a book, and then you'll also expose yourself to other things. I ain't watching people on the live stream.

>> There are people out there that sit on their live streams or watch every single thing, and when you look at all of their, um, internet history, it's all mini bounces.

>> Yeah, but you can't hate on those people. I don't know.

>> Me, if I say that it's slightly low IQ to, um, expose yourself to that sort of content as a grown-ass person.

>> You're saying diversify the portfolio. It, it, to me [laughter] is...

>> I'm going to have to repeat that one.

>> You think you're going to have to repeat that one?

>> Yeah. I think I don't know. Personally, I think it's just like cultural snobbery. I like what my man's got to say. I think Bouncer's got a lot to offer. And I think...

>> What would you say he has to offer?

>> I don't, I think he's got an insight, a perspective, as you say. He can hold my attention, make me laugh, but I'm also a person that will pick up a book and do all the other stuff. [laughter]

>> That's the whole attention thing, right? The whole attention thing is, I genuinely believe anyone can do that. Also, okay, if I get a mic and start saying like, "I walked into a room and two of you were having a threesome," people are going to start looking at what I've got to say. No, I've made it up. A lot of these guys are making up stories. They're making...

>> Don't tell them about that. I said don't tell them, don't tell [laughter] them about that story. Don't tell them about that.

>> But do you understand where I'm coming from? That is not talent that you are. If you're lying for being lying for hyping, hyping, lying, overly exaggerating...

>> Embellishing.

>> It's more than embellishment. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, okay, let's take what he said about Zezy Mills. Oh, yeah. She's sniffing. She needs to. He did about five videos about Zezy Mill sniffing.

>> Actually, I didn't see that. To be fair.

>> We have not seen any video of Zest. You're, you're essentially praising a guy that has used a, a story to elevate and also to elevate his own position in some way.

>> It's not respectable. It's not respectable. Like if he, okay, the only way it would be respectable, taking Zezy away from it, let's just say any person who's taking, if he was to say, "Do you know what? There's been an incident and you know this per man or woman's really dropped off. We want them to get help. You know, we've been working with certain organizations." D. But that's not sexy, is it? No. It's not fun, is it? So, you're not contributing in a positive way to society. Even if, like me, people might hate me and say, "Oh, you're just being negative." But if you actually look at my content of, let's do better, let's work harder, let's educate ourselves. Why are we not in these rooms?

>> You stand on business. Your whole platform is on business. Which I respect.

>> I do not think they're doing their business though. Like, as much as your business is for the community or for yourself, these lot are evidently doing something for themselves and have a platform. So you can't. So where do you stop then? Because, okay, you can lie. You can, um, if, as you said, embellish, you can make up stories about people. You can actually ruin people's reputation just so you can get those. None of that [ __ ]'s okay.

>> That's not sustainable. That's not entrepreneurial [ __ ].

>> Yeah.

>> That's just hate.

>> Just so that people can be like, "Oh, did you see?"

>> It's fraud. You know what it is? It's fraud. But do you not think it's up to the audience to develop a bit of a critical eye about some of the things that these people are saying? Because I think as much as the onus is obviously...

>> On the creator.

>> On the creator, it's up for the audience to determine what they see to be true and to develop their own considerations as to what that has been said. Surely.

>> Okay, but that's not me. We're changing politics here because you're talking about accountability. But then that's a lot of my politics, and I do agree with that. But where you have, you don't have a stringent, uh, policy of social media, you know that that content is going to go to the minds of very young people. We can, we can say till we're blue in the face, it's parents' fault. It's very difficult. So what you've got now are people that suffer with mental health, young people, people who, you know, they've got a mor of issues. And there has to be, as a content creator, just as a decent human being, there has to be a slight level of morality of how, what could this do? If I put this out, what could this do? Do you know, if, if it was like back in the day where you went to Woolworths or whatever, and it said 18 on the CD, that's different because you know that hopefully people over 18 have a level of, whatever it's, it's not just for anyone.

>> Yeah. We've lost we've lost any...

>> We don't have any control. So if you are going to be that person and then you claim to, oh, I'm taking down the old like way of doing things. This is the new way of doing. Need to do more for the community. And then now you're just espousing lies and horrible clickbait stories. What are you really doing?

>> But don't, but you, do you not think the Shade Borough does that as well though?

>> Yeah. Like, look at the end of the day, I, I see the Shade Borough as like a black Daily Mail.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Black tabloids.

>> It's black tabloids. And I'm not mad at that. What I'm frustrated at is the output. So I can read the Daily Mail today or the latest crappy like gossip in that space, but I can also read the Financial Times. I can also, but it's all from that area. When it comes to ethnic, more predominantly black communities, there isn't that balance. So now knowing that all of our community is hooked on these things, their day-to-day, and this is why I, I got into politics because it's like me living in Tottenham, I'm going to these political meetings. No one else is there.

>> But we're there online like, "Oh, they hate us. The police hate us." When I went to a crime and policing meeting, none of you lot pulled up.

>> So who's to blame? No, because you're consuming garbage online. You don't go to the rooms that matter that actually influence our lives. So do you think the answer is for people of the community to basically diversify how we represent ourselves, how we articulate any messages, whether it's culture, politics, whatever it is, or do we just have to be more critical of the Shade Borough?

>> I think going back to your point of should the audience be more critical? It's, it's like if you keep on eating McDonald's, you're gonna find broccoli disgusting. And there is, uh, we should, as a collective or audience, try and show love and appreciation and platform those who do talk sense or who do talk, um, things that actually are poignant and would help us in life. Does that make sense? But then I feel that if some of these characters were more knowledgeable, let's say for example, if Bouncer went away and read...

>> He can't. [laughter]

>> Audio book.

>> By his own, by his own admission. [laughter]

>> If he, if he subjected himself, he can listen to this, to be...

>> If he listened to audiobooks, let's say for a tune in, big year. Yeah.

>> He [laughter] could probably have better content to mix with the content he's doing to get people. He does, I do see him trying. Like he'll do little political things or he platforms this light-skinned guy, what's Tris in Dubai, who does like finance stuff or whatever. So I do see he, okay, all this [ __ ] real further man's in Dubai, it's all about like, how do you game the system? None of it's ever about like, how do we exist in critically shape the world to a better future? You live in a society, do you know what I mean? I think a lot within the community, especially if you come from a deprived background as well, you feel like the state hasn't intervened in any way to support your life in any...

>> But we, it won't like the, the every, whether it's extreme left or extreme right or any anywhere in the middle, the date historically hasn't been, I don't think for anyone. Like they have these, they have these notion oral like ideas of, "Oh yeah, we're going to change things." It, it never happened. I can't, in since you've known about politics, what party or even politician can you say that would make sense fiscally first, but also is for the people and has made a change to improve all of our lives? Like, who would you say?

>> Well, I think the main problem is that you've landed on is that we've had, uh, stagflation for 18 years. So the majority of our lives, there has not been some dividend to redistribute. But the New Labour years did do that. They, they created opportunity. SureStart was a way to go into communities for people who didn't have access to those means to be able to pull themselves up. They created opportunity.

>> But politics is always about offsetting those balances that you've just set. It's a case of who can we get to support us whilst you say the fiscal credibility. What's fis, what's fiscally credible for me as someone of the left is definitely not 14 years of the Tories. But then for someone who's probably been a bit wealthier over the last 18 months, they would look at this government and say, "Well, actually, this government may not be on my side." So I think I don't think you'll ever find a politician who can really square that circle because there are naturally competing interests within a society. It's how you build a political program to kind of integrate all of those challenges would be my view.

>> Let me ask you a question. Right? You have been someone who has experienced social mobility, right?

>> If you had to explain what the keys were to being an aspirant person and being successful in just three clear values, what would they be?

>> I would say education. I don't, I don't know if they're values, but education, throwing yourself in no matter what, because fear is a huge thing. Um, and I would put as a subheading like networking. Um, and I'd also say delayed gratification. Like that for personally, that's that's been for me. So when I say throwing yourself in rooms, like many people that I speak to, why do you give, oh yeah, that room's not for me. They can't, they don't rape me or, you know, that sort of thing. You've got to get rid of that. Like...

>> You have to believe in yourself, basically.

>> Yeah.

>> That you deserve to be in that space and that you should occupy.

>> Exactly. And like start rubbing shoulders with people who you rate and respect. And you know, if you're going to stay in the same area and everyone's scratching around at the bottom, I know that sounds horrible, but you're not going to elevate yourself.

>> You know.

>> Yeah. And so you, you, you're a landlord now, and you've obviously spent a lot of time working in housing as well. I feel like a lot of what you've been telling people to do is like, how do you get skin in the game in the capitalist system that we live in, right? How do you get to a place, and especially for our communities where we haven't had skin in the game?

>> Yeah.

>> Now probably is the greatest chance that most black and brown people in the country could actually have some skin in the game. And...

>> I just, do you know what it is for me? It's like, so most of my friends now own their own property, and that's because of, I'm not going to take, you know, credit for all of it, but I've literally sat them down and I'm like, "Why haven't you owned a, why don't you own a house?" This is just like one area. I'm not just saying home ownership is the answer. And they're like, "Oh, I can't. I can't." It's, it goes back to that self-belief. And I'll go through their accounts. I'm like, "You could have bought a house two years ago."

>> Yeah.

>> Do you know what I mean? It's something as simple as that, which I think is one of the easiest things to do, the easiest assets to generate income. I know you guys don't really agree with that, but like, is there's certain things.

>> No, I don't disagree with that. And it's true. I'm saying, should it be that way? Because one of the problems we now got is asset over inflation. So the problem that I've got with the system as it is, and this is why I've got a problem with people like that, for instance, was that when she sold off all the council houses, we stopped building houses, we stopped building social housing. And clearly, what's that happened then is that if you've had capital and you've accumulated it, you've been able to accrue more and more and more, you've been able to invest more and more.

>> But you know how I look at it and justify, and I know it sounds weird. We're never going to get reparations in terms of like, if you're from or associated with the black community, right? And I accept that. So what I can't understand about the left or like elements of Labour is, you know, that black and brown people have been disadvantaged for God knows how long, and now you want us to not benefit from capitalism when your family or your parent, no, you sacrifice, you do socialism over there. We, it's our opportunity. We, as a black and brown people, should be capitalists on steroids until we see an even kill. And we're not going to see it. Like, as far as I'm concerned, if we keep on wanting the same government that's held us down for over 500 years, then we're going to stay at the bottom. And I, I know this sounds a bit like a conspiracy theorist theory, but the whole welfare system, if you look at the first generation of like the Windrush, they came here in a way, kind of capitalists and conservatives. They bought up Brixton, Tottenham, Hackney, Notting Hill, and it, some of those houses now are are worth what...

>> And they kept on doing that. And then as soon as the welfare, like all of their children, and I think because of racism, they were really soft on their children. They didn't say, "Come on, you got to be like us. You got to be like us." And then a lot of them went back home and left their children. And their children got into the welfare cycle and that cycle of, okay, social housing. Oh, I could kind of buy, but I don't want to lose my social property like tenancy agreement, but you're not making money, money in there. Yeah. So, do you think there was a moment in recent history where black communities basically got poorer? 'Cause that to me sounds like what you're saying is that we had wealth when we came here, or at least we tried to get wealth, and then something went wrong. Maybe.

>> No, but that's, that's the thing. When Caribbean people came here, they were not wealthy at all, but they did things like partner. Do you know partner?

>> Yeah. Yeah. My parents do partner.

>> There we [laughter] go. They did.

>> Explain. Explain what partner is.

>> Pardner. You explain.

>> Well, it's essentially...

>> Basically, when we first came here, we couldn't open up bank accounts. So, everyone drops a hand in. A hand's about £20. Everyone, there could be like 10, 15 people, and they take it in money to give you the lump sum. So, the lump sum could be like £1,000. Then, everyone takes it in turns and pays their partner until it's gone round. And that's what allowed a lot of black people to buy their houses back in the days.

>> Yeah. So, what this whole idea of, oh, it's impossible now. You dealt with like NF, you dealt with skins chasing you down the road. You dealt with not being able to get a job and being like, not even be able to have a rental where Asian and black families had to share homes.

>> And we still managed to do it then. We still managed to own like, so many of my friends now, their grandparents own these huge big [ __ ] houses, and we managed to do it then. So when I hear excuses now where things are nowhere near as bad as they were back then, and we're still like, "How do we do it? How do we do it?" You're talking about a more solidaristic time. You're talking about a time when people...

>> What do you mean solid?

>> So with solidarity. Yeah. There was more solid, solid, solidarist in. There was more solidarity that people were able to collectively bargain together because there was trust within those communities and and and an understanding that you needed to do something.

>> One thing I'm curious, I feel like our generation is losing the partner spirit. I did my partner when I had a paper round. I got £750. That took me on holiday. Yeah. Yeah. I did my partner when I was a paper round. But I feel like I don't see any young people from the community talking about the financial methods that our parents and our grandparents had to do in order to get a nicer life for us. One thing I get really pissed off about is I always say my grandparents didn't come here to play around. They didn't come here just for us to chill out and have a nice time. These lot came to make sure that we were winning in whatever we were doing. And you can start to see some of that now. But I feel like not just in our community, but I think you're right. It's a class thing. There's a defeatist spirit that, "Oh, I can't do this," or "I'm going to have to do this."

>> There is no, there's no community. That's why it's like what you said with like the solidarity. As much as I'm agnostic, what underpinned that was the church.

>> Was religion. 100%.

>> But do you not think a shared sense of racism though?

>> Say that again.

>> Do you not think a shared sense of racism also underpinned it? 'Cause the church is one thing, but like Muslim communities, Hindu communities, Sikh communities, we all had a common experience in that we were racialized as black, and as you say, the state was against us, whether that was in the police, whether that was in housing, whether that was in education. And so it can't just be the church, surely, as a way.

>> I think it was a common interest of culture as well. You're coming over from a small, really sunny island, and you realize that, you know, Doris a couple rows down is cooking aki and saltfish. You want to go and see Doris 'cause you want to feel at home. So I don't think it's, I don't think it's, or I would hope to believe, because when I speak to many of the older generation, they tried to not concentrate on the racial element. I feel like the racial element became like an obsession with the Pan-African movement. That's a conversation for another day. But the whole from like the '70s, that's when you saw what your parents experienced, and then now you've got hate in your heart. I think with our gen, like the older generation, they just saw it as, okay, we, we are different people, people are gonna not like us, but we're here to do...

>> But they felt British as well. That's the thing. Is I think about my grandparents, these lot felt like they were British people. They were just black at the time that were experiencing disproportionate levels of inequality and prejudice, but they never, as much as they would say, "Okay, yeah, they're from Jamaica, they're from Ghana, they're from wherever." I don't think...

They ever lost a sense that they were here to do something, and they're buying into a country for the future. And they'd also grown up in those schools where you would have the portrait of the queen or whatever, you know. They still love it, 'cause we're all Commonwealth babies. And that's one thing I was curious about. I mean, you literally come from the east and the west and you're met here. My family come from a similar background. Your family is from— My grandma's Chinese Jamaican, and my dad's Australian. But I was saying to Javan before when we were saying we were going to get you on, I was like, you basically have the same politics and attitude as my grandma.

Yeah. Like there's an old school Caribbean sort of grit your teeth and bear it and just get on with it. Keep calm and carry on, you know. Really. Like I get confused about though, 'cause that's why I don't relate. Like obviously I grew up in the ends and all that stuff. But there I do feel a huge disconnect that when I go back home to Barbados, everyone thinks like me. They're like, "What? What? What is it with this crime?" Or like, you know, when there's a big situation like the Chris Cabar in Barbados, everyone was like, "Well, he deserved it. Why was he living a life like that?" Or there is a huge support for the police in our Caribbean islands. Like, yes, go and get him. He's over there. Bring him. Like, there isn't that sort of. And I understand why, you know, we weren't welcomed or supported by the police. So, now we see them, like you said, as the ops. But there has to be this separation of stop the celebration of crime and, you know, all that sort of culture.

But the problem is, is there's cycles of deprivation and then there's no truth and reconciliation. And so that's where the problem is. When we, we obviously we need to shift this in the community because at the end of the day, if you're in trouble, you should be able to call someone who is going to come and help you. But a lot of people still feel like, I don't trust them.

I don't know if it's that anymore as much. I don't— I think it's more like the adoration for the whole gang ethos. Like, I don't snitch, I don't do this, I don't do that. Do you know what I mean? It's it's it's entrenched in the culture of it also not being cool in the top, the top boyification of life. Yeah. And I I think that is a huge issue because you're not going to be able to ever elevate because it it goes down, it trickles down into other things. I don't want to put no money in the bank. I don't want to do— I don't want to do work with the white man. 'Cause that was another thing where I speak to loads of people. I'm like, here's a good job. I'm not being underneath the white man. Or the whole like, I'm going to make sure I retire by 35 'cause I'm not.

But that's a that's a historical though. Because back in the day, you was literally working with everyone from all over the— you worked, people worked in the industrial site with all of these other people. And that was how that was basically how multiculturalism was born was because, you know, when I think about it in terms of the communities that my grandparents were living in when they moved over, it was like if you didn't have a lot, then everyone together would have something. Something. You would pull together. But that's not just an ethnic thing. I think that's, um, that's a human thing. With the way of the world now, if even if you go to like white areas, whether that's well-to-do or working class, they don't really know their neighbors anymore.

Or you were in the summer of community, but this is a consequence of your politics though. Why is it a consequence? Hyper individualism. Hyper individualism, the atomization of communities. It became, you know, Margaret Thatcher, there is no society. You know, the only thing that matters is this island getting rich at the expense of others, largely is how it seems to me. Or not having a sense that you have an obligation to someone else.

No, because when you go to middle class areas, they still have community and a lot of them are capitalists. So how does that work? Because they have they have the richness to be able to afford to be. Whereas for everyone else, the system that—

Wait, hang on, pause. So, I no longer want to find out who my neighbor is 'cause I can't afford to, or I can afford to. How does why does money even come into it where historically you would actually go and introduce yourself? You'd say, "Hi, I've just moved into the neighborhood." Blah, blah. I did it recently when I moved and everyone was like, "Oh, that's really nice. How come?" Okay. And now we're all kind of cool. We got a WhatsApp group talking about parking and [ __ ] Like, you know, it to me that's nothing to do with money or finances.

It's to do with this whole like, yeah, I maybe technology as well. I mean, education is part of it as well, right? People who've grown up in that sort of community understand the value in it and then they they transfer and their behavior is conditioned by that. But I think what's happened is that because the system has pushed us in a way of thinking, right, the only thing I need to take care of is this little box, you know, or my home, my house, my immediate people have lost that sense of actually there's a world that exists outside of this that actually sometimes being in service to that community as well and not wanting anything back from it is gratifying and edifying for your character.

I think it's the other side. I think the welfare state has enabled people to not look after each other because they think the state will. So, when I had to do a lot of possessions, I would often go above and beyond. I'd be like, "Okay, if if her uh mother was going to be made homeless and she's with her children and I've done everything in my power, I would say I would ask her like, "Where's the father?" I would get the father's number. I'd be like, "You know, your children are about to be made homeless. Do you have anything to add or say?" Yeah, but she's on housing benefit. Like, let them sort it. Like that would be the repeated response I would get from loads of like baby fathers or the fathers of the job. What's it got to do with me? Because they know there's that safety net. Whereas historically, you would know you. And that's why I kind of am the way I am because if I'm allowed to keep more of my money, I'm not taxed to the hill, I'm more likely going to want to pay into my community. I think it's horrific that we beg the same government that's never done us any favors for youth centers. Please open youth centers. No, we should be able to make enough money to say, do you know what? Let's create our own centers and not have to rely on a government. That's how I think the world should work 'cause that's how before welfare, everyone looked, okay, John, Johnny didn't have dinner tonight and, you know, maybe his mom's not. We're going to feed him because we've got the money and it goes around in a circle. There wasn't welfare those days. Now that there's welfare on steroids, no one gives a [ __ ] because you can go on and sign on. And that's what we're starting to see in the UK with specific immigrant communities where they are now getting the wealth. They're able to form their own communities of schools, of businesses. You got lawyers, you got accountants, you got all of the trades that you need that exist within particular communities, and some are just left behind.

And and I'm glad that you said that because most of my tenants are people on five-year visas and they tell me the stories of what they've come from. They have nothing and they're here to work. They're like, they wouldn't even conceptualize welfare. I know that's comes from a not having nothing. So it's not, you know, normal to them. But I just think that's also a positive thing because when you look at like the Kurdish community that's only been here for 20 years, they own most of the shops up and down the high street now. Tottenham. Yeah. Tottenham, Green Lanes, North London. And then you go to other areas and it's it's a similar thing. They came here. I used to look after families that came from Iraq like before and they said we saw our families being shot, all this stuff, but now we own like how many businesses.

But then when Reform says we want to abolish indefinitely to remain and, you know, these tenants and a lot of them are hardworking people, how do you square that? I think it's difficult because I think that a lot of working-class people have felt that they've been forgotten about.

How do you identify working class? I'm really curious about this. When I say working class, white people, I mean the ones that I don't— I like to separate the ones that just rely on benefits. I don't think it's fair to call them working class, but I mean the ones that they have, they haven't got an education, so to speak. They maybe left school at six, at 16.

Ignore that. Ignore ignore the timer. I would just say anyone that is on a low salary but does have a willingness to work and they know. We know there are a lot of people. We have to accept that not everyone is going to climb that ladder. And I don't think we should make everyone feel that they have to. If you're really happy working, you know, in a factory or whatever and you want to continue doing that, they should still have some level of a decent life.

But those people can't even apply for the jobs because now whenever I go and see those sorts of jobs, they are taken by people that have come into this country. So in those de-industrialized communities then where there is a lack of opportunity, what are you saying? 'Cause earlier you were saying that people are work shy. A lot of those people have been are families of two, three generations now that have been benefit. The young people are work shy. I'm talking about the the some of the older. Some of those people in mining, old mining communities. A lot of them lost their jobs. They went on to welfare. They got supported by the state. And there was nothing to replace those work.

But then you have to move around. You think, oh, you think they've got so they've got to leave the communities that they've been from for— So, but humans have always done this like since the beginning of time. That's why we do have so many different types of people across the world. Like Syrians weren't able to make money so an influx came to Barbados. The same with Indians coming to Jama. Like you have to do that. And that's like me saying I think I should be able to live like, you know, and buy a house in Tottenham. I can't afford it. I had to move to Essex. Like, and I'm I'm not on benefits. So if if I can say that I can do it, why some why shouldn't other people have that mentality of moving and creating a new? I'll give you example. The Jewish community who are normally seen as wealthy in Stamford Hill have now been outpriced. The gener the younger generation, they have all come together and they've all moved to Canvey Island. Now there's a huge Jewish community in Canvey Island. They're not moaning about it. They've just done what they need to do and go to Canvey Island.

But it sounds like you have more sympathy for the native Brits though than necessary to migr like people from migratory backgrounds when it comes to this. No, I think I think I am quite balanced because at the same time I always say you can't have like a policy geopolitically of bombing other countries and not expecting them to go somewhere. So there is that element more. But then I also understand that your working-class Brit or English person has essentially nothing to do with that policy. Many of them were marching against the Iraq war. Didn't do anything. So I it's not that I feel for them more. I empathize with where they're coming from, you know.

And that's that's the only thing. And when we look at also cultural dynamics of living, lots of Indian people, they can undercut and take those jobs because they will live six or seven in a two-bedroom, three-bedroom house. I've seen it. But what when Javan was mentioning earlier about communities where the whole community is taken care of from all the different industries that you need to take care of. Do you not think that that's a problem for multicultural Britain? If you have different places where just one ethnicity only meshes with themselves and they've got all the resources to do so.

So if you go into like there's parts of Birmingham for instance that we know of are very much enclosed communities that people have feel like they're living. Birmingham. I think all over the country there are communities that exist in silos. Parts of London. Oh, you mean like just Jewish or just Indian? And I think where they've been able to create the infrastructure solely for their own sustenance without having to integrate fully within the community or within the society. And all of that kind of power and wealth and cultural capital is concentrated within their own communities. Do you not think that is a problem? Because I think it's a problem when you're superseding the interests of everyone else against your own.

But you you can't you can't celebrate that we uh as Britain are tolerant, I don't even like that word, but tolerant and say, you know, we allow under our human rights act, you know, right to worship, religion, all the rest of it. And then say, you know, you don't have to live here. Yeah, because okay, essentially you have to create a culture. But it's very hard. So going back again to Barbados, there is one culture. You have Gujarati Indians, you have Jewish people, you have like white Bajans, black Bajans, whatever. But everyone's eating macaroni pie and baked chicken on Sunday. Do you know what I mean? In their homes, they might have their. Yeah. It's like Jamaica. Same thing. Exactly. But you can't create that here because it's it's too late. Like you would have to try and secularize all these people and you you can't go to an Orthodox Jewish community or a Muslim area and say you. They you'd have to say give up. If you want to, you'd have to give up.

But do you not think Britain has to assert its values then? Because if I know, but we need to wrap it up. We can't secularize people. People. We have to assert what we believe to be true. Would you tell people to remove their religion then? No. I think we're the do the Christianity is the dominant religion in the country and then you celebrate Christmas and you recognize all of the things that make us a Christian society. But you can practice your faith privately. You would have to say get rid of your faith schools. Get rid of your community centers that are only Muslim or Jewish or Sikh. You'd have to do that and say if you want to practice those things, do it in your home because we need to be multi. But the problem is that France has tried to do that and it's not exactly made the the country mesh together. Anyway, Lin May, I wish we had more time. But you turned up late and we got wrapped up in the stew. But thank you so much for coming along. Come again. I will. Come on. Thank you very much to our producer living in the back for staying late today as well. Big ups. There we go.