Prime Minister Mia Mottley: Climate, Immigration, and the Power of Small Nations

I've I've always noticed it, but I've never thought to myself. It seems so obvious now, but I've never thought to myself, "Oh, yeah. You can't tell Rihanna's story without talking about Barbados."

Exactly. The music, the way she sees the world, the way she interacts with the world, the fact that she's still, you know, a citizen of Barbados. Like, all of these things inform how she goes.

And that she still has a Beijing accent.

That's true. Yeah.

So, if I said that phrase to her, she'd know what it means.

Of course.

So, wait, how do I say it? You still have a...

No, the fair. The fair. How do you say the phrase?

Oh, dare.

D fair.

Oh, you got to treat people fairly.

But you said dying fair.

D fair. D fair. I'm going to I'm going to work.

But you have a good Beijing accent already.

I'm I'm working with yours. Dying fair. I'm going to learn it. I'm just going to say to people dying fair and I'm I'm going to get there. I'm Rihanna. You didn't invite me to your party. Dying fair.

Exactly.

Yeah. Now we're on. Now we're on. This is What Now with Trevor Noah.

Prime Minister Mia Mottley, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much, Trevor. I was thinking of every possible question I could ask you because you you're one of the most brilliant thinkers I know. You're also one of the most original human beings I've ever met. And as I was going through everything I could think of, I went, there's one pressing question I've always wondered and I've always wanted to ask you, and that is, does it ever bother you that most people think Rihanna's the prime minister of your country?

I wish it was. Then I'd be able to spend more time on the beach. No, Rihanna is phenomenal. I mean, look, Rihanna has made Barbados known in places and with people that would not otherwise have known it. I mean, we like to think that everybody knows about Barbados. That's what happens when you come from a small nation.

I know what it's like. But the truth is that she really has extended the boundaries for us and, um, she has defined excellence. And I want to speak to it because people don't appreciate that I genuinely feel that she is the businesswoman and artist that she is because of how she was raised.

Huh. See.

Barbados is a place. Barbados is a place that social justice matters. If you go to a Beijing, the first thing they tell you, man, you can't unfair that body. That ain't fair. Everything is about fairness, justice. And Rihanna, when she decided to go into business, said, "Look, I'm going to do a makeup company because, guess what? Everybody's been doing makeup for certain colors and certain hues. I'm going to do it for everybody because everybody matters. Everybody must be seen. I keep talking about seeing, hearing, and feeling people." She did it. Then she wasn't satisfied with that. She said, "I'm going to do a lingerie company." And then you look at the shows and the lingerie is for every shape and size. Those who are fit, those who have been maimed, those who are disfigured, for everybody. And that sense of inclusion, that sense of social justice that was instilled in her from birth, that was reinforced in her in school, is what she's living. So when people ask why is she successful? Because she's authentic, 'cause she's real, 'cause she's living out what really matters. And that sense of fairness and inclusion, the world buys into with her.

I think that's beautiful.

Yeah, man.

I've I've always noticed it, but I've never I've never thought to myself. It seems so obvious now, but I've never thought to myself, "Oh, yeah. You can't tell Rihanna's story without talking about Barbados."

Exactly. The music, the way she sees the world, the way she interacts with the world, the fact that she's still, you know, a citizen of Barbados. Like, all of these things inform how she goes.

And that she still has a Beijing accent.

That's true.

Yeah.

So, if I said that phrase to her, she'd know what it means.

Of course.

So, wait, how do I say it? You...

You still have a...

No, the fair. The fair. How do you say the phrase?

Oh, dare.

D fair.

Oh, you got to treat people fairly.

But you said dying fair.

D fair. D fair. I'm going to I'm going to work.

But you have a good Beijing accent already.

I'm I'm working with yours. Dying fair. I'm going to learn it. I'm just going to say to people dying fair. And I'm I'm going to get there. I'm Rihanna. You didn't invite me to your party. Dying fair.

Exactly.

Yeah. Now we're on. Now we're on. Um, until next time. You see when you invite me, then I can eventually say, "We is we."

We is we.

We is we. I like this. We...

Most powerful. Three words.

That's the most powerful. Okay. We is we. Dying fair. I I I almost feel like that's that's a perfect place to to start a conversation because if we think of Rihanna as a as a concept and as an idea, you have a single human who has had an outsized impact on the world.

They came from a place that many would have considered insignificant. They started in a place that many people would have considered, uh, unremarkable. And yet, there's no denying that music, fashion, beauty has now been shaped by this person.

Absolutely.

I feel like your journey and the journey of Barbados has been very similar.

Mhm.

Truth is that the journey of Barbados before has been there for good and bad reasons. And let's start with the bad.

Yeah.

Um, Barbados was settled. In fact, this is 400 years this year that the British first landed. But the history was written that they were the first. Although we now know that people were probably there who came from, um, Europe, but the story that nobody told was the Amerindians who lived there for centuries and who, at the time when the British came, there was evidence of settlements and life, but nobody had been living on the island at the time.

I start there really to carry you to the fact that the modern story of Barbados then is shaped by the British conquests. And they started a parliament in 1639. It's the third oldest in the Commonwealth. Um, and they passed a law which really is something that we are not proud of at all. And it became the structure for modern racism and institutional racism as we know it. And it was the bedrock for slavery. It was the 1661 slave code passed by the Barbados Parliament. It was followed in Jamaica. It was followed in South Carolina. It was followed in Georgia. It was followed in Antigua. Almost all of the countries in the Americas used that 1661 slave code, which denied the humanity of black people, as the basis for their thing. The British treated Barbados as the jewel in the crown. It was the producer of sugar. Um, it was for them the earner of great wealth.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it was also the place by which they understood how to control and denigrate black people, um, as slaves. So that we feel as modern, independent Barbadians that we have a duty to pay forward. And that duty to pay forward is as a result of that history. Now, there were other things that happened at the time because of how important the colony was to the British. So after King Charles took back over from Cromwell, ironically, King Charles, he he gave some of the planters in Barbados land in the Carolinas. And therefore, there is a huge impact of Barbadians and Barbadian slaves moving into the Carolinas. And the linkages between Charleston and Speightstown in the north of Barbados go back, um, 370, 75 years.

Fascinating.

Yeah. And and and there is also a belief that we need to do more research with the Gullah people and to really see the linkages between the Carolinas and Barbados. Um, in addition, prior to that, when the Royalists, um, tried to fight against Cromwell, they had the Charter of Barbados in 1651, which they say 125 years before independence, the Declaration of Independence in the USA, really spoke to a lot of the same things in terms of no taxation without representation and a lot of the same things that came to be discussed here. So that you see Barbados popping in a super-sized way through, throughout history. And in a sense, therefore, I don't try to claim it for Rihanna or myself or others today as the country because it really has always had that tradition. Yesterday on my social media, a picture came up of the father of independence, Errol Barrow, and his wife meeting President Lyndon Johnson here in DC. And the story goes at that time that President Johnson said to this prime minister of a newly independent country, um, the Organization of American States, the US will pay your dues to join. And Mr. Barrow said, "Um, sir, with all due respect, where I come from, if you can't afford the dues, you don't join the club." I give you that story as well as in his first speech to the United Nations, he declared that we would be friends of all, satellites of none. So there's a strong sense of dignity, a strong sense of we have a responsibility to do things and to, to give, um, especially because of what we went through. And that does not mean that we are more powerful than we are because at the end of the day, size still does matter. But on things of thought leadership and dignity, count us.

Because you, you, I mean, when you talk size, I think it is important to understand the size of Barbados. What's the current population?

It's probably about 270,000.

Okay. Yeah. That was 300,000. Just under 300.

Just under 300,000.

We actually, regrettably, have declined. And we're right now going through a whole conversation about building back up the population.

Is that because people have been leaving?

Part of it is that, but part of it is that we've done a damn good job at family planning. Family planning has been strong in the country from the 1950s. You know, this is this is one of the things that like feels like one of the greatest conundrums that the world is facing, right? Is actually, I was having a conversation with my mom about this.

Okay.

So, my mom was asking me, um, what I think about marriage, when I'm going to get married, you know, all all of these questions, but not pressing, but pressing.

And do as moms do. Yeah. As moms do. And then I I said to her, one of the things I've been pondering is how much of our, um, advancement has limited the natural progression of what it is to be human because now you have to like choose to make a family. Back in the day, you know, if we think about this, this is only in this in this century, people didn't think that. You just did. You just did. And you couldn't, you know, I mean, obviously there's like old, you know, I've seen like ancient prophylactics and things, but for the most part, people just had kids because they had kids. Like, how do you, how do you begin to think about this idea? You know, we we see people saying, "Oh, populations are declining here, populations are declining there." Is it the threat that that some people say it is to nations?

Well, it is. I mean, look, in the Caribbean, um, the first thing I did when we won government in 2018 was to create a national population commission because having served as minister of education,

Yeah.

many years ago, I realized just from the numbers going into schools that we had a problem. I had in those days, I had about 42, 4,300 kids every year.

Yeah. When I came into office, it in 2018, it was down to about 2,500, 2,600, 2,700, something like that at the beginning. And now the ones going into infants are like 2,200. So that you can clearly see the sharp decline in 30 years. And if I go to other countries in the region, let me give you context. Guyana, that is the fastest growing country in the world. Guyana is...

Yeah. Yeah.

Because of the oil.

Okay. Okay. Got it.

And but Guyana's population, in spite of it being the same size as the United Kingdom. United Kingdom is 65 million. Guyana is struggling to be a million. Um, let's go to Belize. Belize is the same size as Israel. Israel is 8 million. Belize is 400 and something thousand. Um, Suriname is just larger than the Netherlands. The Netherlands is 17 million. Suriname is 580,000.

And if I take Barbados, um, Singapore grew itself literally by reclamation of land. Um, I think they've gone up by 30 or 40%. Um, they're more or less a little bigger than Barbados. They're 5 million. I'm struggling to be at 300,000. So you have this predicament that other than Haiti, almost every country in the Caribbean community is underpopulated, um, including Jamaica, Trinidad, Tobago, all of us.

Do you think it's it's because people are able to choose to have kids or is it because people are choosing to have fewer kids as their standard of living goes up?

A combination of reasons. How does it work?

I think it's a combination of reasons. I think some of it was immigration. Mhm.

I think some of it is more people choosing not to have children or not having children for whatever reasons.

And then what do you say to them if it, if that's the, you know, as a as a leader, 'cause now you have the predicament, and it's a confusing one. You need more people. Do you tell people to have people or do you...

Well, I'd like them to, but the reality is that I still need people before they do it the pleasurable way. So while while they have pleasure in doing it, we're going to need that. I still need skills now. And when you start to see the shortage of skills, then you begin to realize this is a real, real constraint on stability and growth. I would love for you to help us get an insight into thinking about the world like a leader should versus how we think about the world as the passive participants of what's happening.

What, what you just said, we often read about, like everyone reads about it. They go, "Oh, I read, I was reading that there's not enough workers coming into this country. There's not enough people. You know, Japan is experiencing a decline. Germany, etc., etc." When you're with world leaders or when you're working on these problems, is it, is there a light that is shining in one direction? Is it immigration? Is it, is it something that we're not thinking about? Like, where do, where are the possible solutions? How do you think? I fear that the conversation about immigration and migration is rooted in racism rather than rooted in the needs of a country.

I think that people are fearful of becoming a minority in your own country. And that's natural. You can't think that. But at the same time, without the influx of people, you're not going to be able to stabilize or get the growth that you need as a country. And one of the problems is that in the world, we have worked out how to move money. Nobody worries about how to move money globally. But as soon as you start talking about moving people, everybody gets nervous. And in 20, was it December 2018? I think at the OEC, Organization of African, Caribbean and Pacific States in Nairobi, I made the point and I continue to make it that we need a proper deal for migrants. And this notion of people having to drown just because they want a better life when countries elsewhere actually need them and can provide opportunity and dignity to them. Something is fundamentally wrong. And regrettably, that's one of the things I can say we unfair people.

We definitely are.

We are unfairing people. And we are seeing people die unnecessarily when we can have a structured program. And part of it comes back then to the Sustainable Development Goals, the SDGs, because most people don't want to leave their own countries. They leave because there's a reason. They have to. They're either running from something or running to something.

Yeah.

And if we could get a basic agreement globally that there's certain things that we must provide people, basic education, which means from pre-primary to secondary. I mean, I'd love to say post-secondary and tertiary, but let's just start up a base level. Everyone in the world must have a basic education that allows them to learn at any stage of their life again. That basic healthcare for the very basic things. Right. Um, the opportunity to play football or cricket or whatever sport you like, or road tennis, which I hear people talk about. Pickleball. I want you to come to Barbados and help me promote road tennis.

Cuz road tennis can play in this...

Wait. What's it called?

Road tennis.

Road tennis.

Yeah. Yeah.

And what, what's road tennis?

The guys at home made these rackets out of plywood.

Okay.

The net is effectively about, what, six, nine inches off the ground.

So it's like knee height.

So if you're not fit, you can't play it. So even I got a little trouble sometimes. And then a tape ball, and you can play it. It's like the size of a table tennis board, but it's played on the on the road.

On the road. And that's it. So it's this feels like a sport for inner-city, um, areas and ghettos where there's no cars.

Yeah. Well, even when there's cars, how are we playing road tennis?

So the, you stop, you pull up the the the net, the car passes, and you move. Swear to God.

When you come to B, you'll see.

I'm actually going to come and see, you know. So it's funny, in South Africa, we used to, I mean, most places in the world, I, you know, friends of mine who grew up in like Harlem have the same stories that I have growing up in South Africa in the townships where you would just close the road, you would play the game, and then when a car needed to come through, it would come through. But I think as a, if I'm pitching this as like an Olympic sport, it's going to be tough to pitch this idea that we're cruising, closing. But okay, we'll get it. I'll come to some for the Olympics. We leave out the cars.

But I think that's what'll make it interesting. If you want to get viewers, you leave the cars. That's a real gold medal.

We could do that, too.

If you, if you finish the match, you get a medal. Um, yeah. Like, I, I love that you bring up the idea of thinking of new ways to to think, 'cause that's that's probably what inspires me most about you. Is whenever I see you speak and whenever I've even I've been lucky enough to have like two conversations, I think, with you, every time I've left our conversation thinking, "Oh, wow. Nothing is fixed. There's there's new ideas in and around everything, you know, like immigration." We all think of immigration as this fixed idea. It was people going somewhere and then that was it. Do you think there's ever a world where, like you say, with money, do you think there's ever a world where we find a way for people to go work and then go back to their countries?

We need to. Look, people used to do that in a more structured way, but because the world hasn't created, governments haven't created the opportunities. Look, we we create movement. We create treaties that allow for movement of money. We create opportunities for people to invest. Um, but we just don't see people and feel as important enough for us to create a virtual community where you need these skills. I mean, look, in a very small way, you've had the farm labor program out of the out of Canada, the Caribbean. People have gone to for years. They go, they work, they come back. That's a structured thing. The money...

And that, do you see that that benefits?

Yeah, it works well because it helps the farmers in Canada and it helps the persons at home who don't have work at the time. Right. Right.

Who have an opportunity.

So get get the labor where the labor's needed and then get the money where the money's needed. And so you're just bridging the gap, basically.

And technology actually allows us to do it in a very seamless way now. So that, to my mind, if we just rolled up our sleeves a little bit and gave it a little effort, we could do a lot more. Let's take Africa. Every time I go to Africa, the amount of young men you see on the roads just waiting for work, working for opportunities. And I'm saying, but there are other parts of the world that are in serious need of people. And I'm not talking basic menial labor. I'm talking skills at all levels. And I genuinely feel that if we can create the right framework for the movement of skills and labor, that the world would be a far better place than it is today. When you share these, uh, ideas with other world leaders, do they see the possibility? Or, or like, I've, I've always wondered when you're having these conversations internally, are world leaders being pushed by the people, or are they the ones pushing the people? Which, which way does it really go?

You have the ability to push them. And I don't mean that facetiously. World leaders are politicians. Most of them who operate in democracies rely on people's votes. And the people have the ability to shape the work of their leaders, as well as leaders have the ability to nudge the population. Um, I genuinely feel that there are things that we are going to have to do at a popular level globally in order to be able to see the status quo of power move.

In what way?

Why would they change what they're doing if it's working for them?

Okay. Yeah.

You understand? And what we're asking, in fact, is a change in the power relationships and the status quo of how people are treated when they move beyond borders. And that is going to require a little more effort. Um, look at the conversations that are happening across North America, across Europe. Um, look at them. And regrettably, in some other countries, it's it's becoming par for the course. But could the USA be the USA if it was not for migrants? It's immigrant labor. It's the dream of the fundamental story.

That's right. That anybody can come and be whoever they want to be in this country. That was the seed of its greatness. And then let's look at biology. I didn't do much biology in school, but any instrument, any organism that closes in and that doesn't open up dies. Atrophies. So I really, really feel that the problem that we're facing is the browning of the world.

The browning of the world.

Ralph Gonsalves, who is Prime Minister of St. Vincent and the Grenadines, says it all the time, and he's absolutely correct. It's the browning of the world. So that you see when you let too many people come in and people start to mix, in a sense, everybody's beginning to get the same color and the same type of thing. And that frightens people because love knows no boundaries, does it?

That's true. That's true. Um, I mean, I'm sitting here so...

But I, I, you know what? I sometimes think it is. I think us seeing the browning of the world as one of the factors is is completely correct. But I often wonder if this is not a natural byproduct of people experiencing a standard of living that declines over time, and then they start to point somewhere.

Yeah.

Do you know because, because like if you look at Europe itself, some of the biggest wars that have ever been fought only involved white people.

Mhm.

You know, they were just fighting with themselves about themselves. And and so whenever I, I read these stories throughout history, I go, "Oh, wow. It, it doesn't matter. Brown is almost the easy thing for somebody to pick on now. But when you get rid of that, someone will find something else, and somebody will find something else." And and so I, I almost...

It's a combination.

Um, I think that there is definite, um, a definite contribution with respect to inequity. Yeah. And the fact that people who could have believed that this was the type of life that they could aspire to now realize that that is now beyond them. I mean, in this country, you have it with the industrialization that left, and therefore, um, strong, credible, dignified jobs were all of a sudden taken from people. And those jobs sustained families. Um, but let us not forget, as well, that there is still regrettably, um, an eye for differences in the world.

Oh, definitely.

And and and I think the combination of all of those things has helped to create that sense of almost despair, and the despair has led then to anger, and the anger has led to shutting out people and focusing in. Tell me, when in history, any civilization has conquered or survived by shutting in? Any living organism survives by shutting in? Doesn't work. And regrettably, we have to get worse before we get better before we realize that it is a crisis and that the survival of all depends on the well-being and welfare of all. As happened in COVID.

Yeah. That's the, those are the only times when people start to think differently about the world that they're in.

Yep.

We'll be right back after this. Let's look at Barbados in isolation, 'cause I think it, it's, it's, it's the same problem that many countries are going to face, thinking about their populations, how they replenish them, how they keep skills, how they, how they keep growing sustainably. What do you, have you seen any countries that have gotten it right? And have you seen, you know, an example where you go, that is the way that I would hope we can bring people in, we can sustainably...

Canada has probably done a better job than most of the countries. I think that they found a way of recognizing that they need to bring in people, but at the same time, they treat them as Canadians. The US had it right before, too. I mean, for whatever reason, the US is in a schism as it relates to migration. And I'm not passing judgment on them. I'm just noticing that, you know, you do grow and you do succeed if you create those opportunities. I think you were absolutely correct in also making the point that in those parts of the country where people were denied or didn't have the ability to move at the same level and to increase their quality of life at the same level, they then assume that it's because of a foreigner. It's because of an outsider. You're seeing it in France. You're seeing it in, um, other places. But remember when Angela Merkel brought in a million people,

Right.

from, uh, Syria when it was, Syria, and it was like a shot of adrenaline because she understood that Germany was facing the worst possible future, a declining and aging population. The irony is that's what we're facing in most Caribbean countries. The ECLAC, um, agency predicts that in Barbados, that one in every two people could be over the age of 65 by the year 2050.

One in every two.

That's crazy.

Oh, that's not a great ratio.

Exactly. And in the case of Jamaica and Trinidad, 39, 40% somewhere around there. So this is a real issue that we have to solve now, 'cause we're 25 years away from that point in time. Um, at the same time, the Caribbean is a microcosm of almost most of the largest civilizations of the world. It really is. Not all, but most of them. So you have African, you have European, you have Asian in every sense, um, Indian, Chinese, um, you have Middle Eastern, um, and you have the traditional Indians, most of whom were taken out. But in St. Vincent and in Belize, you still have the Garifuna. In Dominica, you have the Caribs. So you still have a few remaining. And I like to believe that the Caribbean, because of our history, has a story to tell to the rest of the world and an example to share with the rest of the world. We've not been perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But for the most part, we have been able to bring about development to our people in the post-colonial environment that sees people, that feels people, that hears people, that recognizes that, look, okay, we need to provide education, shelter, housing, etc. We haven't done it for all yet, but we're on that pathway. Not everybody's gotten on the train yet, but a lot have. And when you start to compare it to other countries and other regions in the world, you begin to see that the difficulty has come in that in many instances, small states have had rules imposed on them that don't make any sense. I mean, for years, for the last 30 years, we've been arguing to the WTO that we need special and differential treatment as small states. And that my percentage share of global trade in goods is 0.0000%. And my percentage share of global trade in services is 0.001%. So we have no capacity to distort global trade. But if you treat me as if I am equal to a large nation, then you will kill me before I can even start. You destroy anything that I can do to keep my population alive in terms of manufacturing or in terms of whatever.

Yeah. So that, there is the old Aristotelian principle, equality for equals and proportionality for unequals. And if we were simply to use that and to recognize that you can't have the same one-size-fits-all prescription, you can't do it in a family, far less a country, far less a global community.

And if we can get that, so many things that we've been trying to solve will find themselves in place. And part of the difficulty is is that the new world post 1945 was still remade in an imperial order. So that all the talk about sovereignty and independent countries, you're independent so long as you do as I say, not even as I do. Because when they told us, "Don't do quantitative easing and don't print money," the truth is, when COVID hit, what did the developed world do? Oh, they, G7 printed and printed and printed and quantitative easing and, you know. So we have to find a way of letting some air, some oxygen, some transparency, some light, and to begin to see that the one-size-fits-all rule will not work. And that you have to be able to give a little elbow room, not a lot, but a little elbow room for us to do the things that we need to do to keep our people alive, to keep our people prospering, to not cause our people to want to get into the things that you complain about globally in terms of migration or crime or all of the other things.

Yeah. I've always been I've always been fascinated by by the, like, sometimes what I think is very short-term thinking from some of the bigger nations, in that they'll often think about mass migration, but they don't seem to wonder why people are leaving the place that they're in. I, I, the first part of me goes, like, maybe it's just an arrogance.

I give you an example.

Yeah.

They do things that literally shoot themselves in the foot sometimes. In what way?

In 2006 and '07, there was a big debate about the International Criminal Court and the fact that the ICC, that US heads of state and army, military people did not want to be subject to prosecution, right? And they went around the world trying to get countries to agree that they should be exempted. And we in the Caribbean said, "Hey, we hear you, but one, it don't make sense because this is intended for all people."

Yeah.

But two, even if it wasn't, this is the idea of the former prime minister of Trinidad and Tobago, Errol Robinson. And as a matter of solidarity as well as principle, we can't do it. They said, "Well, if you don't do it, we're going to withdraw all military aid from your countries."

Wow.

I said, "Okay, that's not a wise thing to do, but I mean, that's not a year, 18 months, and..." Eventually said, "We're going to do it anyhow."

What happens? Nature abhors a vacuum. China, who never had any relationship with any of the militaries in the region, really then stepped in and developed a relationship and provided training and equipment and things thereafter. Does that make sense to a country that is so frightened for China? See, when you're saying that, I wish more people understood, especially Western nations, you know, quote unquote, I wish they understood how many of the problems they're experiencing are created in a cycle.

You know, so friends and I were talking the other day. You can't talk about 9/11 without talking about Osama bin Laden. You can't talk about it without talking about Al Qaeda. You can't talk, but then you can't talk about it without talking about the CIA, which you then can't talk about without talking about the US and what it was trying to do about communism. And now many of those people go, "Oh, we did the wrong thing." But the effects are felt so many years later. And and what you're saying is the same. If you watch the news in America, if you watch the news in the UK, let's say the BBC, they'll very quickly say, "China's expanding. Uh, China, we've seen China here, and China's in Africa, and China's in the Caribbean. China's doing this, China's." But I, I don't think I've seen any news reports that say, well, the US opened the door for China, and the US reneged.

The North Atlantic countries have not necessarily treated to the issue of development in the post-colonial era as well as they could have. We talk about official, um, development assistance being 0.7% of GDP. Most countries don't even observe that. But for...

As in, that's, as in that's a portion that they're supposed to contribute to developing nations.

Exactly.

Yeah.

But countries like my own have been said, "Oh, you're middle income. You don't need money from us." So we effectively don't get any aid from the USA or from Britain or whatever, other than a part of a regional study or a regional thing that is done. And that's one of the things that we've been arguing, and I'll come to that in a bit, because that's at the core of a lot of the development issues that we are asked to be able to access capital from the official financial institutions, international financial institutions, on the basis of historic GDP per capita.

Mhm.

Which really doesn't. I tell people that is like taking my blood pressure two years ago to determine if I'm going to have a stroke today. It is completely irrelevant. You understand?

It's like creating energy.

So that what matters? Because in 72 hours, a hurricane can hit me.

Yeah.

And I can have wipeout risk. Now, a hurricane can hit in Florida, you don't have wipeout risk. A hurricane hits in the Bahamas or Dominica, it's gone.

Yeah.

And instead of dealing with qualitative issues in education, you're now dealing with basic access to schools again. So we make the point that the North Atlantic countries, for whatever reason, had the Caribbean and a lot of the other small island developing states in the Pacific, etc., in a certain prism. This is how they view you. This is how they're going to relate to you. And China and India and others come along and say, "Oh, these are some of your real development needs. Oh, you need a gymnasium, or you need help in building a port, need help in doing roads. Um, we're going to lend you the money at 3% or 2% or 4%. Who else is lending you that money? Nobody." So, I think that remember what I said. We want to be friends of all, satellites of none. So we're not looking to be anybody's pawn, but at the same time, we're not looking to be disadvantaged or unfaired because you don't believe I should talk to my neighbor. Um, when in truth and in fact, the neighbor's done me nothing. And then secondly, when I look at your circumstances, you have greater exposure with your treasuries to them than I have. The Chinese hold 4% of my debt. It can't do me. It can do me less than a hurricane can do me. There are others who hold a far greater percentage of my debt, and the Chinese hold far greater percentages of debt in the developed world, in the G7 countries.

It, it almost feels like a contradiction then in some ways. It's almost like some of the larger countries are basically restricting smaller countries from engaging in the best way, or even in an autonomous way, in the way that they feel is best for them.

You see, you get it. So why do you get it? Because you've been exposed now to the facts. Tell me, where in large developed countries are you exposing your population to the facts? Or is it purely an opiate diet that you give them with respect to entertainment and dulling down the senses and no real discussion? You look at the news at night, and it's the same five stories being done on every channel when you look at this country or Britain or wherever. And the Jewish rabbi who I really, truly respected, Jonathan Sacks, Chief Rabbi in London, wrote a series of books, and I'd encourage you to read them all, but one is "The Dignity of Difference," where he talks about moving from narrowcasting to broadcasting. And of course, we all know it. I saw your last podcast on on the impact of these devices on children.

Yeah.

And if you ask me, one of the things that worries me at night, this is it. And I think left up to me, how, how can we came back into office to find that everybody had these things in schools? But we need to have a national and an international conversation as to how do we balance people's access to a world that is not there and is in the hands of a child whose brain and whose maturity is not yet fully developed. You're going to tell them they can't smoke. Remember, with children, you were told you can't drink coffee when you're young. It's not good for young children. But yet you give them this most powerful weapon.

Yeah. It shapes them. It molds them. It influences them. Yeah.

And at the same time, I've been arguing that you need to expose our kids to risk because what do children want? To play adults. They start at young, and they can get away with it, and they go and take their mother's makeup and their mother's shoes and whatever, and they play in house. By the time they become teenagers, it gets a little more dangerous. They want to smoke. They want to ride a bike. They want to have sex. They want to do other things. We now got us. And I'm saying to them, we teach children how to cross the road as little kids safely. How do we prepare them to manage other risks as they get older? And therefore, the educational transformation that we need is not to give people knowledge because facts, for the most part, although you have to be discerning, are found there in technology. What we need are the values and attitudes, the skills, the commitment to excellence in whatever you do, and empathy because you have to care about people. If not, you're going to be in trouble. And you have to do the best that you can do in everything that you do, however little, however small, however large. And you have to show them how they develop and mature, which is what we don't talk enough about, the social and emotional learning targets. What do you expect a child to say or do?

Yeah.

At 7, at 10, at 12, at 14, at 16, when the hormones start to get in the way, how do you deal with that? Recognizing that relationships with parents are not always the easiest during that period of time. So, how do you create a pressure cooker type thing where the steam can be taken off, and the child just doesn't explode into some kind of, you know, awful situation? So these are the things that matter. So I'm seeing more and more a world that is not allowing us to have the conversations sufficiently that we need to have. And regrettably, um, it means then at the level of international policy, where we were talking about international diplomacy and power relationships, that some of the things that ought to make common sense are ignored. And then we only get to it when it becomes a crisis, you know. So there's so many things that we can do better. And let's take climate, okay? They say that there's no climate crisis.

Mhm.

The reality is that whether we say it or not, the temperatures and the climate is not changing. There's a clear difference of opinion between those now who say there's no crisis and those who are frightened as hell that this is the greatest existential crisis that the planet will face.

So, how do you bridge this moment in time? You've got to find a common love language. What do I mean? Methane is 80 times more dangerous than carbon. We talk about carbon all the time, but carbon stays in the atmosphere for hundreds of years. Methane stays in the atmosphere for 12 to 15 years, but it's 80 times more dangerous. Methane is generated from gas leaks and the flaring of gas. It's generated from how we raise our livestock and farm rice.

It's generated from landfills. If we were simply to fix the pipes that are leaking and stop flaring the gas, because when you flare gas, you can't make money from it. Hm. If you were to capture the gas and if you were to fix the leaks, what would happen to the oil and gas companies? They make more money. That's their love language. What would happen to the planet? It would stop the destruction of it. That's our love language. And the scientists actually tell me that if we get this right in the next 15 years, we can actually reverse the temperature by half a degree. So what does that also do for the oil and gas companies? Oil and gas companies are not the villains. The emissions are. So if they can invest at scale for decarbonizing technology, then they can continue to have a longer route to run. And the controlling of the methane gives them the time to do the research.

President Trump did with the COVID vaccines. Remember Operation Warp Speed?

Yeah, we've talked about that.

Need Operation Warp Speed for methane. And that's what I mean. I'd love to tell President Trump that because he gets what he wants, and the world gets what it needs.

How, how is this missed? I mean, you saying this to me now.

I've said it a few times publicly because I think the world... It's logical. It's what you're saying to me now. I'm I'm trying to think of it in my head and I'm going, I don't understand why this, it's common sense. So what's falling? Where is it? Is it companies that are trying to cut? I've been talking to President Macron. I've been talking to a number of other leaders, and I'm saying, look, we need to have a face-to-face meeting with the oil and gas CEOs because I actually believe that there is a win-win for us all. They have... Remember Sting's song, "I hope the Russians love their children too."

Yeah. Yeah.

Uh, I believe that the oil and gas companies love their grandchildren. And unless they have a plan to live on Mars that they haven't shared with us yet, they got to get this act right on Earth. I feel that if we can reach a legal agreement, just as we did with the Montreal Protocols to cover, um, the, I think it's called HFCs, I keep fixing it up in my head, but the air conditioners and everything.

Yes.

Right. And we've been successful in doing that. If we took the same approach to methane and had a global methane agreement. Now, the Europeans might get a little antsy on the livestock farming, but there are...

ways to deal with that as well. That will not stop the farmers from making money. The farmers in Asia who do the rice, they may also get a little nervous. But I know that President Banga at the World Bank has already been working on how we can do things in terms of changing how we farm there.

We we seem to >> this thing is so simple, Trevor. >> Yeah. But we we seem >> It boggles the mind. >> We seem to it's it is simple but it's >> complex because you can't get people to change. >> Yeah. But we we come up with these solutions or rather we find solutions when it's war. >> Mhm. >> I I've never seen a single war and I've never watched a documentary. I've never read a book about any major war where people said we can't. >> Yep. >> Do you get what I'm saying? The atom bomb is an impossible idea. It is truly impossible. But nobody said we can't. They said find more scientists. They said find more brilliant people. They said find more pieces of land. They said they made it happen.

You know, there's a a trillion dollar jet that America never got right. >> When I'm being facetious, I say if we can find a way to cure men's baldness, we can find a way >> to save the planet. >> But but is that the problem? Maybe is that the problem? Is that is it is it that we haven't found priority? >> Is Yeah. Isn't that Is it that maybe we haven't found the right lever? You know, because when you talk to most people about climate change, I don't think I'm being mean when I say most people don't necessarily care care about it or don't feel like they can afford to care about on a daily basis because it doesn't seem like the thing that impacts them now. >> So, so let me >> like we're so bad at seeing slow problems, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. So, but let me tell you, it's happening faster than we think though. >> Yeah. >> Look at California this year. Look at the fires. I mean it was apocalyptic >> right? >> Look at the fact that from as far back as probably 2 three years ago insurance companies start started to say we're no longer insuring for >> fire risk. Then let's look at southeastern south southwestern US, sorry. Florida, >> Texas, Louisiana, >> all of those um states, especially in Florida, you're getting insurance companies and in the northern Caribbean starting to say, "Hey, I don't know if I want to insure you for flood. I don't know if I want to insure you for hurricanes."

Now what and I've been saying for a while what becomes uninsurable eventually becomes uninvestable whether it's a country a sector or a region the financial system globally is premised upon insurance in many ways you go to a bank you want to borrow money for a car insure the car you want to borrow money for a house a mortgage insure the house you want to borrow money for a company these are covenants that we require and we acquire you to cover insurance blah blah blah. >> I mean it goes back to shipping days like back you know. Yeah. So when uninsurable becomes uninvestable then the world is going to listen because the financial markets and the financial companies and the finance people of the world are going to say hey what's happening here now Barbados we were not the first but we are the largest with respect to the issuance of commercial paper debt with natural disaster clauses. Um, I could make this joke here because you know you you would to get it. We call it natural disaster clauses and then the World Bank and the British and everybody came and gave it new names just as they gave us new names when they brought us across the Atlantic. But hey, we we're accustomed to that. So, but these natural disaster clauses simply say this and understand the internal logic. If I get hit by a hurricane tomorrow of a certain category, not any and everyone, >> your first thing you're going to worry about if you lend me money, are they going to pay? >> Can they pay me back? >> Can they pay me back? >> And you price that risk >> Yeah. >> into the cost of the paper that you're charging me. So I come along and say, "Hey, you don't have to worry. I'm going to give you a legal commitment that if you allow me not to pay for two years, well, I get my body strong again, my country strong again, >> because I have a lot of uninsured people, which you know about. >> So, the state has to step in, >> right? >> If you give me that 2-year break, I'm going to back it up at the end of the payments. You remain whole. I'm not even asking you to take a haircut, which really and truly you should, but I'm not asking you for the haircut. And you don't have to worry about whether I'm going to default or not. You're just giving me the ability to fix my stuff and move again. So, let me use the word hard because if we get hit, >> these clauses now >> allow me >> to get just under 20% of GDP released over a 2-year period for me to fix up >> for you to get back to the place where you can help people. Exactly. >> Yeah. Becomes a more s sustainable model essentially.

Like I'm I'm listening to you saying this and and I'm going I can't help but draw parallels between what's broken in many societies. >> Forget on a geopolitical level. I think about the United States. >> You look at what's happening in France right now and then we can go to African countries, South Africa, South Africa being one of them. >> The amount of people who are one car accident away from completely being destitute. the amount of people who are one medical procedure away from being completely wiped out. the amount of people who will have one moment where >> forbearance is called >> and but what's what's mind-blowing to me what's mind-blowing is if these I always wonder why can't these companies who are in charge of this why can't these companies see that the person being given an opportunity to get back to whole >> becomes better for them long term >> then by squeezing them when they have the very little that's left I >> I gave a speech in Algeria last week th Thursday Friday where I quoted Derek Walcott who is noble um laurate for literature from St. Lucia and there's a poem that he has that talks about the reassembling of the broken vase and that the love that it takes to reassemble makes it stronger. >> Oh yeah, it's similar to the Japanese technique. I'll send you the quotation >> um when when we finish here. >> And that's exactly the point that you're making and that the country becomes stronger, the individual becomes stronger. >> And what does it really require? An understanding of the circumstances or maybe the practice of the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

But do you think that's become broken because corporations have an outsized power in all of these conversations? Like like if you if you're think if if you're a CEO >> and you're only working towards that quarterly quarterly report, >> you don't see or hear anything else. >> Yeah. And and all they're thinking about is I need to make sure that this number in the next 3 months is bigger than the next number is bigger than the next number is bigger than the And so what that then means is you can't think long term. You can't think in a beautiful soft curve. You can't think in a way that's sustainable. I feel >> which brings us back to the conversation about narrow casting and echo chambers. It brings us back to there's some kids in the region that I met recently and their parents said I make my child watch something that is an hour long every day because they are so consumed >> by quick >> with one minute and 2 minute that their capacity >> Yeah. >> to sustain attention and to think and to reason is compromised.

I think I think it's I think it's more than that as well. I I I I I always find myself bristling when people say no one has an attention span and I go that's not true. I I really don't believe it. >> And the reason I don't believe it is because somebody can stay on TikTok for 4 hours so they do have an attention span. I think >> rotate it. >> Yeah. I think what they've done is we've created a system. We've monetized a world >> where keeping you addicted to the drip drip >> means that you don't realize the long-term reward of exploring, understanding, misunderstanding, rereading, digging deeper, and then getting to the end of something where you go, "Oh, wow. I >> there was a moment where I knew nothing about this. >> There's another moment where I thought, then I lost, then I and at the end of it, what a beautiful expanse of information I now have." >> Yeah. And and it's a discipline that people had before. But I think that we need to get people to understand that you need to be able to discern and to explain and to understand. You don't have to agree with everything you read, but you need to understand what it is you're doing and why you disagree. Don't press anything. We've got more what now after this.

You talk a lot about global debts >> and I think you've had one of the most outsized influences in helping people understand why so many countries in the world are stuck in the positions that they're stuck in. You know, I I grew up in a country where people until this day will say, "Oh, well, I mean, look at South Africa. They haven't, you know, and look at and then I've seen them say that about African countries." Well, you know, Africa, they haven't done well for themselves. I mean, you can blame the European, but Africa hasn't done well for itself. And you talk about this this >> global hypocrisy and inequity in a way that I think most people have never heard. And it made me wonder like what do you think what is one practice that you think is the most globally, you know, indefensible way in how larger companies countries are are treating smaller countries? You were right in saying larger companies too because I think it's a form of of of bullying and a failure to put yourself in the position of the others and to craft rules that work for you but not for everybody. So let's look at everybody knows the story of Greece with their economy. Greece and Ghana, and I'm not talking about Ghana in the last postco years, but just before COVID, Greece and Ghana had basically the same credit rating, but Greece was accessing money in the international capital markets at a fraction of what Ghana would access it. Part of it has to do with the safe assets and part of it has to do with a lot of underlying assumptions that were made as you created these institutions. And if I want to get it as basic as I can, why should Europe determine who's the head of the IMF and why should the USA determine who's the head of the World Bank? >> Doesn't South Africa have somebody who can head the World Bank? >> Doesn't um India have somebody who can head the IMF. So a lot of these assumptions were made and the rules were crafted in the image of a few, not of the many. And as a result, we've been paying the price of those rules that have not been touched, have not been deconstructed and reconstructed. And we have been paying the price as well that just doesn't matter enough, you know. Okay, South Africa is having problems. Okay, that's a conversation piece. Okay, maybe there's too much corruption in Africa. What's happening in Europe and North America? The same corruption out there. It takes two hands to clap. more often than not, it's a European or a North American investor in Africa that's driving the corruption and it takes two hands to clap. This makes no noise.

So, I think that bringing these things to light matters in terms of those who have a conscience immediately say, "You're right. That's true." And those who don't have a conscience will find it more difficult to sustain the error of their ways. You've said things that have made me think of how we convince people differently because I remember one day you said and you you'll correct me because I might paraphrase you incorrectly. You essentially said >> we'll listen to people fighting about like migration and who's going where and who's going we never think to ourselves how can we pay somebody to stay in their country >> and I I I saw you saying this. Yeah, I saw you say and some people were like oh no you should never how could you say such a thing? because I realized there's this there's this there's this idea around immigration that has been romanticized, you know, and I think maybe because I've I'm an immigrant and because I've been an immigrant in another country, I think sometimes people don't realize that for the most part, no, I'm not saying for everyone, but for the most part, people do not wish to leave their home. >> They don't, >> you know what I mean? Some people want to explore. Some people, but for the most part, people want to stay home. >> What chases them out is a war. >> Yep. >> What pushes them out is a famine. What pulls them somewhere is an opportunity that they don't have where they're from. But if they had those things in the place that they were >> Yeah. >> You find that that would stay their home forever. And when you said that, I remember thinking this is wild that a world leader would say that pay people to stay in their country. >> Yeah. Look, and and it may not be as crude as that. It may be in terms of the development package and the investment. >> But it broke through when you said that, I think. >> But that's the point. And and the thing is to get people's attention to start to think differently. Yes.

Because what I find is that there are too many assumptions that we accept as rigid positions rather than and and the thing I say to my government to to my ministers all the time to the country all the time. Let us deconstruct and reconstruct what is the public policy we're trying to serve? What is the public mischief we need to avoid? Has technology made it more possible or easier for us to do things in a way that we weren't doing it before? >> And if so, who are the winners and who are the losers? Because if you don't see people, you're doing nothing. There will always be somebody who will suffer as a result of the change in the status quo. And there will always be somebody potentially who can benefit. But sometimes you need to go in just like a a a sculptor and you need to just smooth it out because even though you're going in one direction, you may find that that's an outlier that you really need to bring back and if not down the line it'll lead to XY Z.

How do you how do you maintain your hope being such a small nation? Because I always think to myself, Barbados to me is is the perfect analogy for for what many humans feel in life. >> They feel small. >> They feel insignificant. They feel like an afterthought. >> Mhm. >> And yet every day you'll go out and you'll meet with other world leaders who will give you the time. M >> you will speak at the United Nations knowing full well that many of the nations that you're speaking to see you as an insignificant part of the conversations that they're having. So >> I guess the it's two questions really. One is >> where did that hope come from and what keeps it going? And and the second part of it is how have you found or what have you found enables you to make an outsized impact relative to where you're coming from? Let me say that hope is human. Without hope, you lose your humanity. Ultimately, I feel so strongly. You have to believe that the next minute, the next moment, the next month, the next year can in fact be better even if you're going through the hardest of times. Um, at the same time, I've always relied on the fact that God and time and circumstances can be allies. God for faith. Time because we have a saying in Barbadish, why catch you, impass you. >> Why catch you impass? Catch you impass you. So, I like that. >> Just because you haven't it hasn't caught you yet, it hasn't passed you either. >> Oh, I like that. And in terms of circumstances, things happen and we don't this may be part of the divine if you're a person of faith or things just happen if you don't have that. >> And why is my voice on climate resonating more today? because of the floods in Pakistan, because of countries in Africa that are going through famine and locusts, because of wildfires in Greece and California. Those are the circumstances. >> Time because 20, 30 years ago when Al Gore was telling us about an inconvenient truth, >> nobody wanted to listen. So circumstances and time and faith have a way of conspiring to create that opportunity even regardless of how small you are. And as you learn in the stories with David and Goliath, regardless of how large you are,

>> do you think the world >> and and the fact that let me give you a small example because South Africa plays cricket >> and Nelson Mandela made the point that when he was in prison learning about the conquest of the West Indies cricketers beating the British, beating the Australians in the 1960s. >> Yeah. that this gave him such a sense of warmth and hope and you understand and that's what it does for ordinary people. So Barbados, as small as we are, before Rihanna, there was Sigarfield Soas, Gary Soas, the greatest cricketer of all time. You go to Australia, they'll tell you who's the greatest cricketer of all time. Allrounder, Gary Soas. You go to England, Gary Soas. You go to India, Gary Soas. He's still living. He is our first living national hero. Rihanna joined him a few years ago. And for me, you know what's special? Both of them grew up within a mile of Bridgetown in humble circumstances >> and both of them came to be the greatest of all in the field that they have been practicing in. >> So smallness and poverty and circumstances of birth or geography do not define us and that must always always always be kept evermost in our minds and as we raise our children. Nobody's better than us and we're not better than anybody, but we have the capacity to be the best that we can be and sometimes our best will actually be better than everyone else.

Talk to me about the um Bridgetown Initiative. >> Yeah. So, that's just a way of us being able to encapsulate a lot of what we've been discussing. >> Yeah. But, but it's so it's so fascinating. Please just just talk us through it because I think regardless of where you're from, it's great to hear, you know, amazing ideas that could shape any corner of of the globe. Talk to me about the idea inception and and what you hope it achieves. >> So, we realized that the things that we've been speaking about aren't unique to us. And a few years ago I said look let me bring together a number of the people globally that I've been meeting that have been agreeing with us that fundamentally believe that things must change and some of them came from mainstream within the financial institutions and the UN some of them from outside some of them from NOS's and we brought them all to Barbados a few years ago and we started the discussion to frame out how can we bring greater transparency and equity and opportunity to countries so that we can achieve the sustainable development goals and at the same time we could save the planet. >> Yeah. >> Um we are on the front line of the climate crisis. There's no two ways about it. I mean >> for 6 months of the year you worry about a hurricane. For the other few months of the year, Barbados is one of the 15 most water scarce countries in the world. >> Two years ago, we actually had 50% of our 30-year rainfall for the first few months of the year. >> So it's real. When we brought everybody together, we realized that look, we need to make a major statement and to go after a set of reforms globally. You heard me speak about the fact about the need for inclusion. Why should the head of the IMF be a European and the head of the World Bank be an American? That's a deal that was done by a few boys in a club >> decades ago. But it doesn't apply to the world that you and I live in today. It also doesn't necessarily mean that the best mind is definitely exactly you may have the best mind but you may not >> what we want is opportunity. Let's deal with the security council. You have five countries that are the permanent five but then you have other countries outside it like India that has over what 1.4 billion people out of 8 billion people in the world and they don't sit on the permanent five. You have Africa and I'm not talking about individual countries in Africa because I keep making the point that the day that Africa gets its act together and becomes United States of Africa then you have Africa, India and China and and and don't tell me about ethnicities or boundaries drawn because India has as many ethnicities um or Africa has more than than India but India has a hundreds of ethnicities and languages. China, >> but they found a way to hold to stay whole as a nation state. So that why shouldn't Africa be represented on the security council as a permanent member? Why should they have to go and fight for an election for a different country every other year to get on? Um let us look at we talked about the per capita GDP as the basis. Why should I have to pay more money to borrow money for development when I am more vulnerable? And you're not taking into account my vulnerability in terms of the cost of capital, the interest rates that you'll charge me, but you're asking me to use the notion that, oh, you've come out of poverty. So, what do you do? You put me back on an escalator to be popularized again because you're charging me now too much money >> and I'm spending more money in interest than I'm spending in health and education. That make sense to you? H. No. So these things all started to come together and as we went we realized that there are other issues pertaining to trade. The issues pertaining to recently the the credit rating agencies because they have a a significant and some argue disproportionate impact. >> Yeah. I mean they determine where money goes >> and and the cost of it. >> Exactly. >> So all of these things we're saying look let's pause. New York is a lovely place to be. London is a lovely place to be. Zurich is a lovely place to be but guess what it's a closed club and the closed club is not necessarily working for us because it doesn't make sense in co I was told as a country that oh you can't benefit from um things that we would like to give you therapeutics um vaccines etc because your per capita income is too high your upper middle income as a country I said but that ain't got nothing to do with people getting co ventilators don't have it. It wasn't the North Atlantic countries. We asked we had export restrictions put on us for equipment coming out of US. We had the UK refuse to give us even 10,000 vaccines far less whatever. Prime Minister of India stood up and he gave us 100,000 vaccines. I could have kept them all for Barbados, but when you live in a small community in a neighborhood dying fair, they dying fair. So we keep some and we gave to our brothers and sisters in the rest of the region, however small it was. >> Then Dr. So Tedros at WH said and Uhuru Kenyata said to me, I want you to meet Strive Miua cuz the African countries have asked him to put together the African medical supplies platform >> and we believe I was chairing the Caribbean community at the time >> and we believe that there may be some opportunities there. I call Strive. Next thing we got the Caribbean countries on that platform. So a country as small as S kits and NEAS with 38 40,000 people could access goods at the same price as a country of Nigeria with over 200 and something million people >> and it meant that therapeutics, vaccines, equipment, all of that started to come together and that the financing would be provided by the Afric um out of Africa. Good things happened that made a huge difference to us since then. Africa Zim Bank decided to come into the region. They've now signed partnership agreements with all the member states. They've now opened their first office outside of Africa in Barbados and the whole African renaissance in the Caribbean in the last few years has been growing. I mean, when we came to office, I said to the population, we want a project called Reclaiming Our Atlantic Destiny. We were defined by Middle Passage coming across, but we going to reclaim it. Now I told you about the 1661 slave code. We have a duty now >> to shape the world in a way that makes sense for us and the Caribbean is part of the diaspora which is the sixth region of Africa and we are proud of it but we also have to do some serious repair. There is no direct link by boat or by plane that is scheduled between Africa and the Caribbean. And yet between Barbados and Africa, there is no landfall. Explain that. Make that make sense to me.

So >> you know what this makes me think of? And I wonder I wonder if there's there's anything similar in your history, but in um in South Africa, there was a a thing that my grandmother introduced me to because she was part of it and I just watched her. They called it a society. >> Mhm. >> And what it was was a collection of all the old granny's and they would put money into a collection pot, right? Just their own money. A small amount of money they would put together, you know? So, let's just say dollars cuz everyone, you know, >> so you put in your $10 >> and this group of 20, 30 women would put their $10 in every month >> and every month >> Mhm. >> that fund, that little kitty >> would then give one of the granny's >> a lump sum of money. >> You know why I'm laughing? >> Why? >> That's a suzu. >> That's what it's called. >> A suzu. >> Suzu. And I then learned actually only a couple weeks ago that in Nigeria they call I think isu or something very similar. >> Oh it's very similar in Yeah. >> In Barbados we call it either suzu or a meeting turn. >> Yes. I love that. >> You take your turn >> out of the meeting money >> and that everybody puts in the piece and that is way that is how families were sustained. >> Exactly. But when you look at what it's trying to do, it it built this system where people realized on the smallest level >> as black South Africans, they were unbanked. >> They couldn't get loans. They couldn't get access to any funds that would enable them to do something that required more money than they had at that moment. But if they all put in a little bit, each person every month was getting a lump sum and then some of it was kept aside in case there was a tragedy like a funeral, a death that was unexpected, etc. And then over time, and I've seen this happen in like some parts of Africa, some intrepid business people have realized that a market exists where people told them it didn't. And they've gone in and said, "Hey, >> we will bank you even though you were unbanked. We will connect you to the financial systems." You know, even the things you're talking about now, >> is a perfect example. >> Yeah. With Empessa. Yeah. Empessa. >> Yep. And remember all the European banks pulled out of Kenya >> and risk that the European banks would never have taken. >> But what is it? But >> the Kenyan banks took. >> Yeah. But this is the thing I found before people pay back. >> But this is what I find fascinating though. Like they say risk, right? >> But Mark Zuckerberg will wake up tomorrow and tell us he's lost hundred billion dollars on a virtual reality world that never happened. >> Yep. >> Straightfaced. He'll go it's gone. >> Yep. >> You know, we'll talk about risk. You know, there's major companies that were invested in partially by these same countries. They lost all the money and it's just gone. >> And and you've just hit what the Bridgetown initiative is about. It's about fairness. We started the conversation with Rihanna about that. It's about fairness. That's why Bridown's name is put to it. It's about decolonization. It's about creating opportunities and bringing light in. And and we're not asking for any special favor. We're asking Jess for transparency and fairness and remember what I said equality for equals proportionality for unequal >> and that's what the Bridgetown Initiative is about.

Let me ask you this before before I let >> and it gets technical for the economist financiers in terms of the capital adequacy framework and the ratios and all that but fundamentally this is what is about fairness. When you speak to people who are from larger countries, when you speak to somebody who's in England, in the United States, uh in France, wherever they may be, how do you make them see or what do you say to them that helps them understand why their fate is tied to yours when it doesn't seem apparent? >> Well, I think climate, as I said, has done a great great job circumstances in proving that point for us. Mhm. >> Because they begin to see similarities in what's happening. The difference is that because we are small, we have wipeout risk. They don't they can live to see another day. They can live to find the way to build resilience. >> Yeah. >> So that that works. And the truth is that when you get in front of most people, people get it. >> Yeah. It's actually true. What happens is the lack of audience, the lack of voice. And that's why I genuinely believe that if I were to sit in front of President Trump tomorrow and say, "Look, let's do this thing with with me." >> So, you've never you never set with him? >> Not not since he's back this time. >> Okay. Okay. >> You guys can drill baby drill and we can save the planet. You understand? and and and and and it's a perfect love language, but what it does require is leadership from the G7 or G8 or whatever you want to call them. And that's why I've said to President Mron, Emanuel is a good friend. We've worked together on a number of things. Um, President R himself and Barbados, we're working on how do we finance? I actually feel that if the World Bank was created today, >> yeah, >> it would be created with a different purpose. 80 years ago, you created a bank that needed to help with the reconstruction because of World War II. >> World War II. Yeah. >> Okay. And I can give you all the examples of the discriminatory treatment, including the fact that you you you allowed Germany to cap >> its debt service payments on the basis of its exports, percentage of its exports, or that UK took a 100red years to repay for World War I. Um but yet you want me to b borrow and pay back for a school in 15 years or a hospital makes no sense. We need longer term cheaper capital in order for the developing world to get where it needs to get and to stop the migration that you're complaining about and to have structured arrangements for labor movement and labor shortages. But if we go back to all of this, we find that look, the absence of that capacity to have cheaper money and cheaper capital is actually making the world unfair. Transpose it as you did to populations. The rich get access to loans on a phone call and the poor have to depend on a suzu or a meeting turn if they're lucky. And it is that absence of fairness that I believe that if we get in the same room, most human beings do have empathy. Most human beings do care about fairness. But when you're in a large corporation, as you said, and you're pushing for quarterly returns and all of these things, you can hide behind all of that. >> Yeah. >> But if I confront you face to face, you're actually going to say, you know, you're right. you know dying fear and we start to begin even if it is going to be complex for you to deconstruct we start the process and we at least agree on the destination and then we start to discuss the modalities for reaching that destination and climate has come at a time that maybe if I was leading 15 20 years ago I'd just remain a voice in the wilderness but The global circumstances and in fact the democratization of voice >> because of technology has created the capacity for a movement to start to build globally and I'm not the one who started it. I'm not the one who's going to finish it. I just happen to be one of the travelers along the way and I will do my best. Um, there's a part of the Talmud that says that we are not expected to complete the task but we neither are we at liberty from resiling from it. And I use the metaphor of the relay all the time and that is why I say to you that we have to do our part and while I'm doing my part where I am and I'm not I'm not a prime minister. I do the work of a prime minister. That's not who I am. I'm here. So for as long as I'm here, I'll do that part of it. But there's going to be a time when I'll be like Trevor and I will choose other modalities to be able to bring about and influence people. And a conversation at its smallest in a block on a on in a community is exchange and persuasion. It's no different at the international level. The problem is that at the international level, you're not given access to the room. Shirley Chisum, who as you know in this country was the first black American congresswoman Beijian roots was actually schooled in Barbados gave credit to her gra Barbadian schooling and grandmother for defining who she was as a person. She was the first woman to dare of black origin to dare to run for president in a established political party in this country. you go back and listen to her speeches, they are as relevant today as they were then. But she said one major thing that continues to to to remind me. Well, a few things actually, but one sure if they don't have a chair at the table for you, bring your folding chair. And that's what we've had to do. >> I like that. >> Bring our folding chair to the table.

That's sort of what um that's sort of what uh Ethiopia has just done. I mean, we, you know, what we're just speaking about is >> Ethiopia has been trying for a long time to build a dam. And I know it hasn't come without its political, you know, sensitivities with Egypt and other countries that are downstream from the Nile, but >> it it's really um revolutionary what they've done because Ethiopia wanted to build >> a dam that they needed to generate electricity for a region that covers how many millions of people? The population of Ethiopia is over 100 million and only I think just over 50% of their population have access to electricity. Yeah. >> And if you talk to anyone about the story of Africa, >> the biggest problem in Africa is that when the world is talking about technology 600 million people out of 1.4 billion do not have electricity >> and the World Bank has committed to doing 300 million and I thank AJ for that. >> But what's happening to the other 300 million? the world has more than enough money to finance it and the fact that they're using a dam means that they're using renewable energy that is not becoming a drag on the planet as well. >> But how they funded it was fascinating. >> That's the story of reserves. >> I mean that's that's the most fascinating story. They asked for a loan from the international bank >> and the banks international community refused to fund it for whatever reasons and the Ethiopians turned inward and between the central bank and and the banks in Ethiopia and the ordinary citizens it's giant bonds citizens giving donations and I said to the prime minister um two days ago when we opened it um to Abby I said look >> you know that this is the 21st century ADWA and And for those who don't know about AdWa, AdWa is the battle where Ethiopia beat Italy in 1896. Nobody believed it would have happened and and Ethiopia came together and it took them I think almost 2 years in the long trek and they rose majestically. AdWa is what led to the beginning of the Panaffrican movement. the New York Times. When you go to the the museum in Adisaba that commemorates Adva, you see the New York Times articles showing that this little African country, that's their mind, don't mind, is much bigger than Italy, beat the great Italians. And out of this then came the entire movement that guess what? Black people can achieve something after centuries of domination and subjugation. And out of that came the glory of the Panaffrican movement, the the conferences ultimately the 1945 Manchester conference which really was the last major one before the independence movement and Kruma and all of the others coming out. So for me this engineering feat it's the biggest dam in Africa. It's like 2 km wide 550 ft high. I mean you have to see it to believe it. I've never seen water move at that speed. And even after they take the water that they need for the dam to generate the electricity, the overspill is coming down with a ferocity that I've never I've never seen it. And that they could do it when the world said no. It took them 14 years, but they did it.

So do you think there's a future where smaller countries and countries that have been cast aside start to think like this or will but do you think there's a possibility that the larger countries who are being pushed by corporations will put their thumb on the scale to block that from happening because if if Barbados, South Africa, random countries come together and say you know what let's do our own little projects. Let's let's get our suzus going. Let's get our societies together. Maybe I'm a little paranoid. I feel like there are companies and countries who have been benefiting this for a long time who would go no we don't want you to do that even though we're not going to help you do it for yourself >> because the status quo changes and most people don't want those who are in control of the livers of power don't want the status quo to change by the same token I've also been around long enough to know and I think you've seen it in South Africa that some of the very same people who were opponents eventually become converts. >> Yeah that's true. And and and I think that that is why I believe first always in dialogue and that's why even what happened with Charlie Kirk I think is regrettable and horrific because violence is never the answer. Violence is the mechanism by which a few retain instant gratification or instant power but it doesn't sustain you in the long run. And I think that the ability to have conversation must always always be our first option. So I'm more than prepared to be able to say, look, let us look and see how we can free up the movement of capital to be able to help those who really need it. And quite frankly, I can lose weight in terms of even debt sustainability. I use the metaphor of losing weight. Um, partly because it's a personal challenge. You know what I'm saying? But you can lose weight at 2 lb a month, 3 lb a month, six pound a month, 10 lb a month. There comes a point at which the rate at which you lose it is unsustainable. It's unsustainable now. >> And we've said simply to the international community in the British initiative that the rate at which you want us to achieve debt sustainability as developing countries in the world is too stark >> a rate too too rapid and that if you do that I can bring back down debt overnight because I can negotiate new terms. >> Yeah. But I cannot replace a generation of persons in under 15 to 20 years. >> Yeah. >> So let us understand what is immutable >> and what can change and quite frankly what you think is immutable is immediately renegotiated in a compromise agreement between lawyers and financiers.

What I'm telling you cannot be changed is a lost generation. And hearing you say this, I I think back to some of the points in our conversation, >> populations declining, >> y >> skills in short supply in many places in the world, uh people not feeling like there's upward mobility. All of these I feel like we can we can sort of draw a circle around and the ven diagram of all of them becomes the singular idea of giving people a a chance. And and what I mean by that is, you know, when you're talking now about a population, I go, I often wonder why so many governments and corporations can't see the direct link between their actions and why people wouldn't want to have a child. >> They're very quick. I've seen, you know, whether it's the Elon Musk, whoever go, this is the greatest challenge we're facing. People are not having enough children. And I go, "Yeah, but why would you want to have a child in a world >> where you cannot pay for that child's schooling, >> where there is no health care for that child, where you don't know where the next meal for that child is going to come from?" >> You you don't need to bribe people. Yeah. You don't create the environment that is necessary for them to want to expand. >> And if your state is not going to catch the ball for you. >> Exactly. >> Then why do it? That's why. And you ask me why? Because in barus we believe that we have a responsibility to provide for every child education from pre- primary to tertiary. >> The last government removed tertiary education free tertiary education. The first thing we did when elected even as we were entering an IMF program was to reintroduce free tertiary education for Beijans at the University of the West Indies at Caveville campus because without education the opportunities are simply not going to be there and the capacity to reason with people will not equally not be there. Um by the same token we provide access to health care. I'd like to do even more, but we do more than most countries of the world, quite frankly. And I think that in understanding that, you then begin to say to the finances, that's why I need 30 years or 40 years to pay back for the construction of a school or a hospital because I need to make sure that the people in whom I'm investing >> are now earning to help me pay back that debt at that point in time. But if you give me 10 or 15 years to do it, uh everything bunches up and I'm not yet at the stage where I have the capacity to repay given the investment that I've made in people. >> Yeah. My mom always used to say you need to give the tree long enough time to bear fruit. >> Absolutely. >> And if you let it grow long enough, you can keep plucking fruit forever. >> That's the point. And it's so basic that if we can and that's why I say to you that you have the ability you and others you and Ava Juven and others who are storytellers who are communicators more than anything else we need the world to hear the message and as a prime minister or as a political figure they'll immediately devalue what I say by 70% because politicians don't carry this way >> that you will carry as a comedian, as an entertainer, um that she will carry as a producer and a director, >> that uh Usain Bolt or Gary Soas will carry as a sportsman or Rihanna will carry as as an artist. You have the ability to reach people when they are vulnerable and willing to hear and it'll stick.

No, we we start like this. >> Exactly. We start like this and then our next conversation on a road >> playing >> in Barbados. >> In Barbados. >> But I'm not going to be playing road tennis with you. I'm going to get some of my constituents to do it. >> As any good leader does, know when you are not the best person for the job. That's that's the mark of a good leader. >> I I will arrange it. I'll manage it. I'll even commentate for you. >> It's it's it's on. It's on. Um Prime Minister Mley, thank you so much for joining us. And uh yeah, I mean, you know, one of, as I say, one of my favorite things about listening to you is >> My name is Mia, by the way. >> Oh, no. I mean, yes, but in my culture, haha, let me call you that and see what my people will say to me. >> I acknowledge that. But, um, >> no, I I think I think >> I hope you don't take for granted. We live in a world where so many world leaders either can't or don't feel the need to break down some of the most complicated issues that people are experiencing in the world and then they turn around and are shocked by people protesting in the streets burning things down or even just losing complete faith in the system that exists. They go, "Why won't people vote?" And you go, "Yes, but why won't you listen to them when the voting isn't what's the most important thing at that time?" And I think what I've always appreciated about you is um you take the time to break down the concept. You take the time to see what someone you don't agree with is seeing and you you you put a concerted effort into doing what I think all great leaders should do, which is educating us about the world that we live in. So, thank you so much for joining me. >> Thank you. You know, with our last rebellion in 1937, the theme was educate, don't agitate. Hm. >> I like that. >> Yep. >> Educate, don't agitate. >> Yeah. Well, you may sometimes need to, but at that time, that was what they said. >> Every revolution has a different theme. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I want to thank you for the opportunity for this conversation, and I want to thank you for making us laugh. You know, there's a great Trinidadian calipian, the mighty chocolus, and he says, "You either have to learn to laugh or you go mad and write your epitap." H. So, keep us laughing. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much for watching the episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friend still. Let them suffer for a change. And don't forget to engage with us in the comments. Uh if you want to suggest a guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you can chat to us. We will read through the comments and we'll get into it. Either way, I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for hanging out with us on What Now. And remember, we do this for you, so we would like to hear from you. Till next time, thank you.