USS Liberty Survivor Confronted Over His Claims In Explosive Debate

Yeah. So, you guys that uh maybe want this to be like a a hot and you know fiery debate between these two gentlemen. I don't think we're going to have that. Both these guys have respect for one another and this isn't a um this isn't a Jew hating session that we're going to do here. This is this is a debate about a historical event. So, we're going to keep it cordial. We guys are we're not going to be yelling at each other. We're going to try to keep it factual. So, if you guys are looking for something different, you're going to be disappointed.

But, um, the way I'd like to start is I would like for we'll start with you, Cam, to just lay out and not go into detail, but lay out the the key points you want to address in this debate on whether this was an intentional attack or if it was a case of mistaken identity. So, um, you could I'm not going to be, you know, limiting people on time too much, but, um, you know, take as much time as you'd like, but yeah, lay out sort of lay out your whole argument and what what are the key points that you want to address. So, go ahead.

Yeah. So, I think, uh, primarily, uh, I mean, my side is the official narrative. So, um, in terms of refuting anything, uh, in terms of like things that I would view as conspiracy, stuff like that are things that I'm going to have to hear from Phil before, uh, you know, I can actually refute them. So, I I'll wait for Phil to um actually make his arguments before I start refuting things. I don't want to put words into his mouth. I'll start by kind of just I've got some bullet points of what happened as I see it. There's about 10 of them. I should be able to get through it in like less than two minutes. So, I I'll just lay out how I see what happened and then um we'll let Phil do the same, I suppose.

So, the USS Liberty was dispatched to Sinai. Uh the six-day war broke out while it was in route. The UN ambassador to uh for the US said that there were no assets aerial or naval within 100 nautical miles of the Navy uh uh sorry of the battle zone for the six-day war. The Liberty was cabled to stay within 100 miles uh five times but never received it. The Liberty arrived in the region on June 8th, the fourth day of the six war. On June 8th, there were explosions in Alarish. Israel believed that Egypt was shelling the shore. They dispatched aircraft from a nearby mission to find the ship responsible. They see the Liberty just off the coast about 14 nautical miles appearing to be heading towards the port of Sed. They identify it as a warship and an attack order is given. They believe that it is the ship responsible for this shelling in Erish. In reality, it was probably some kind of benign fire in an ammunition cache that resulted in the cash exploding and um the the local forces believing that they were being shelled, but they in reality were not being shelled. The Liberty did not attack the coast of Earish. Um the aerial attack lasted about 14 minutes. Um the Israeli Navy sent MTB boats and helicopters for rescue and identification. The Liberty's machine gun Mount 53 opened fire and blanketed the middle MTB boat. Israel believed that they were under fire and returned fire at a range of 2,000 yards. First with machine guns and then with five torpedoes. One made contact. The attack completely ceased after the torpedo made contact with the Liberty. It lasted no more than 2 minutes at most. The MTBs signaled the Liberty if they needed assistance. Israeli rescue helicopters attempted to make contact with the Liberty, but were waved off. Uh some time after this, Egypt accepted uh Israel's ceasefire, which had been proposed the previous day before the Liberty had even arrived in the region. So, Israel uh Egypt actually surrendered the same day Liberty was attacked that night. Jordan had surrendered the prior day and the ceasefire was proposed on the 7th. The next morning, the Liberty rendevued with the USS Davis and Massie for ship to ship aid at about 6:30. So that's that's the timeline as I see it.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, Phil, really quick. So, don't don't really respond to anything Cam said right now. Give give your whole um give sort of an overview of what you talked what you want to talk about. And then after that, think of this as two different segments of talking that you're going to do right now. You're going to give sort of an overview of the point you want to make and then dive into your first point, expand on that, and then I'm going to allow Cam to respond to your first point. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I I will. Uh uh thank you, Michael. Uh Cam, the uh what what you just said and all your bullet points, uh I could refute them, but uh let me tell you what really happened. We were uh headed to the west coast of Africa. We got emergency orders to leave Abigan Africa. When we just got there, 4 hours after we got there, they said get underway. We got underway as fast as we could and we went to uh parts unknown. We didn't know the six-day war was going on. We ended up in Roa, Spain, picked up three linguists uh three uh marine linguists. Two of them were were blown to bits and one's CIA, NSA analyst. He was also blown to bits during the attack. We headed to the uh Mediterranean and we got off the coast of the Sinai at uh on the 7th or actually the evening of the uh six and got there on the 7th and uh the Israeli aircraft flew over us with their reconnaissance aircraft with the Star David on them and they reconed our ship over and over again that day on the The same thing happened on June the 8th. Recon Erica with the Star David on the airplanes. They waved at us. We waved at them. We thought everything was fine. I might add, uh, Cam, we didn't receive any help. Our captain asked for a destroyer escort. They denied that. Says, "You don't need any uh escort. Your American flag is your is your shield. Don't worry about it." And we didn't. We was happy to see the Israelis. We in fact we had Star Davids all on the inside of that ship hoping the Israelis would win.

The next morning at after the aircraft uh overflows, we went uh to a general quarters, a chemical drill. After that, the sound power phones weren't working. I went to my uh to the scar scarboard gun mount which was destroyed by the way. There was no way any any anybody could shoot at that uh or have it shot or any post made or anybody shoot. That was impossible on the first on the first pass by unmarked dead aircraft. They're blackened aircraft. We didn't know who they were there. We we thought it was the Arabs. No, it wasn't. We didn't know that till the torpedo boats got there. But on the first the first 30 seconds uh of that attack, every ant tuning antenna and every machine gun on that ship was taken out. Every watertight door was taken out on the first pass. We got a message out by Terry Halard through a hard wire coaxial cable to one of the antenna was not taken off. that was that was taken off because it wasn't tuning. That's why every other antenna was hit with heat seeking missiles. They knew exactly who they were attacking. Every watertight door, every every antenna, everything was hit on that ship. They dropped napom on us. We got a a distress call out to six fleet under attack. Rockstar Rockstar under attack. Under attack by unknown jet aircraft. Immediately, Captain Tully of the USS uh Saratoga sent aircraft to come to our aid. They were re immediately recalled by Lyndon B. Johnson, excuse me, uh McNamera and then they reconfigured off the America and the uh uh Saratoga. They both launched Angen off of the uh America and toy off the Saratoga. They both launched this time. Then the B Johnson got on the line. He says, "Turn those aircraft around right now. I don't give a GD about a few dead sailors. I will not embarrass my ally Israel." How did he know was attacking us if if uh we didn't? We had no idea till the torpedo boats got there. We saw the Star of David. We thought they were there to help us. But they weren't. They got in a a torpedo configured attitude and they fired five torpedoes at us. Two went out. I saw two go after. I don't know where the other two went, but I saw one go. One one hit the uh uh CT spaces. Blew 25 American spies to bits. Blew them to bits. This went on for an hour and a half. Circling and circling our ship, shooting at our firefighters stretch of barracks, which was me, firefighters, and getting people off deck. We had two flags up. They were taking out the first pass or the second first or second, I don't know. I didn't see them all come down. We put up holiday color. Everybody in the world could the Israeli aircraft even said that the attacking jets but it's American ship but it's American ship you have our orders hit it hit it they did and the torpedo boats did the same thing this two-hour blood bath our country set us up to be murdered by the Zionist state to sink us to bring us into World War II and that's the sum of the story and I can back it up with facts eyewitness testimony and uh people like Admiral Thomas Moore on down. So uh this was not a mistaken identity. This was to bring us into World War II. And that was the whole setup. So uh I guess I pretty much put it that way. But there was 34 men slaughtered, 174 wounded by the Zionist state with a false board of inquiry that said his mistaken identity when it wasn't. We were ordered by Admiral Isaac Kid to keep our freaking mouth shut. We ended up prison or we'd end up dead. So that's the orders we got from our own government to shut up. Don't tell anybody about what happened for I didn't speak about it for 18 years. I'll stop there.

All right, Cam, you got some key points you want to respond to there?

Yeah. Um, so I want to start with the uh the destroyer escort. So, um, during your Jako interview with Larry Bowen, he said that the reason the Liberty travels alone is because even simply having another um, vessel near the Liberty interferes with the transmissions that the Liberty receives and puts out, which is why likely why a destroyer escort wasn't granted for an intelligence gathering ship that is so susceptible to interference.

Okay, let me let me wait. Phil, Phil, Phil. Okay, just let him let him finish. Um, you talked about the soundpowered phones and I'm not saying that you said that these were jammed or anything like that, but I you always talk about the soundpowered phones not working just before the attack and it seems uh almost an implication that Israel was jamming those soundpowered phones. Soundpowered phones cannot be jammed. It's physically impossible. They're hardwired. The only way to uh jam a soundpowered phone would be to sabotage the hard wire and you'd have to be on the ship to do that. So, that definitely wasn't happening. And I'm not saying that you said it was. It just seems sometimes when I hear you talk about the soundpowered phones that it's kind of heavily implied. You talk about um every antenna taken out. That doesn't surprise me at all. Especially when fixed guns on a um aircraft that is coming down for a strafing run on the ship and the ship is covered in antennas. It doesn't surprise me at all that many of the antennas are just completely raked by the machine gun that's fixed on the front of the uh each of the aircraft. Um, you talked about blackened unh blackened aircraft. You didn't specifically say unmarked, but this is a claim that I know you and Joe Meadows talk about a lot. Uh the unmarked aircraft, uh I don't see any evidence this. It doesn't make any sense. First of all, if the aircraft were unmarked, they'd be shot down by their own AA guns. Remember, these aircraft were dispatched from another mission in Egypt, and then they were um rerouted to go locate the ship that was allegedly bombing the shore of Earish. They would have been shot down by their own AA guns. Another thing too is you, Joe Meadows, and pretty much everyone I've ever heard from the LVA talk about this specifically says that you saw the insignias over the Israeli MTV boats. Um, also, uh, Captain McGonagal talks about how he saw the Israeli insignia. Doesn't make any sense because why would you attack with unmarked aircraft and then bring in marked MTBs? All you'd have to do is take the flag off the top of them. Doesn't make any sense that you'd coordinate this huge unmarked aircraft attack and then come in with marked boats. On top of that, Theodore Aster, who was one of your crew crew mates, specifically said that he saw a Jewish officer on the deck crying because he saw the Star of David on the wing of one of the planes. He felt as though he was being attacked by his own people and so he started crying. Um, you said that they had heat seeking missiles. Heat seeking missiles weren't really a thing here. There was like really rudimentary heat-seeking missile technology at this time, but it was proven to even have poor performance on like uh civilian targets on the ground or not not civilian targets, sorry, you know what I mean, human targets on the ground. Um, so I highly doubt that they were able to use heat-seeking missiles on antennas that are emitting far less heat probably than a human body. And not only that, you're cooking in the sunlight, the whole ship's going to be hot. The ship's made out of metal. So I doubt that that was something that actually uh was being used. Um, you talk about Napom, and I think that's an interesting point because again, these aircraft, if they intended to come sink the Liberty, which is what you and Joe Meadows and everybody else at the LVA claims, they wanted to sink the Liberty, why would they be attacking you with Napal? Napal doesn't burn metal, right? You're gonna catch the deck of the ship on fire, but it's not going to sink the ship. If I was trying to sink a ship, I'd probably come with thousand pound iron bombs and sink it in one go, right? They didn't do that because these aircraft were obviously on a previous mission probably attacking Egyptians during the six-day war because that's what was happening. They weren't really concerned with what you guys were doing. They were concerned with the war they were actively fighting. Um, so it doesn't make any sense that they were using small munitions in in Napon. Um you talked about Magnamera calling recalling the aircraft. So what's interesting is um these aircraft were recalled after the attack had completely subsided. So McGonagal in his testimony before the Naval Court of Inquiry and I know what you're going to say Ward Boston says the Naval Court of Inquiry is bogus or whatever, but that does not redact the testimony that Captain McGonagal and others gave during that Naval Court of Inquiry. Um, so McGonagal specifically said that, let me find it real quick. Um, and this is backed up by Lloyd Painter, too. So, McGonogal says that the motor torpedo boats were closing at a range of 2,000 ft. Then, machine gun mount 53 opened fire and uh was extremely effective in blanketing the middle motor torpedo boat, the Israelis. Um, they found out that there was nobody on machine gun mount 53 and the person who was on it either left or it was just an ammo cookoff and it was a total accident. Regardless, McGonagal acknowledges that the Israelis would be fully correct in feeling that they were being engaged by the uh USS Liberty. And the if you look at the transcripts between the Israeli fighter jet pilots and their controllers, the the state specifically talks about the Navy dispatching these MTBs and the helicopters to come provide aid to the Liberty. McGonagle talks about how the MTBs do not open fire at all until 53 blankets that middle boat. Then they open fire with their guns and then fire the uh torpedoes. So from a range of 2,000 feet um that would take McGonogal estimates that they were traveling at 27 to 30 knots to close 2,000 ft to 500 ft. McGonogal says that the these boats afterwards milled around the ship and you're talking about circling the ship at about 500 to 800 meters. So let's be um generous to your side and say it's 500. That would take about a minute and 30 seconds. So this whole thing, this whole attack happens about a minute and 30 seconds. McGonagal says that they open fire with their guns and then they close this this 2,000 yard gap. They end up at 500 yards. They circle the ship. But after the torpedo makes contact with the USS Liberty, Captain McGonogal says the boats completely cease attacking the Liberty. There's no more shots fired. Lloyd Painter says the same thing. He says that they lay off after the torpedo makes contact with the USS Liberty. So, the most that this attack could have lasted with a at a range of 2,000 yards, this whole thing happening within that closing distance of 27 to 30 knots is 2 minutes. So, that attack lasted about 2 minutes. Um uh where was I? Um so, it definitely wasn't uh an hour and a half. The um the air attack was uh about 14 minutes. It started at 1356. I know you often claim that it started at 1400. I'll be generous to you. It seems uh to me from the pilots transcripts that it begins at 1356. That's the first time an attack order is given. It's not the first time a bullet was fired, but it's the first time an attack order was given. So, I started there and it ended at 1410. That's the last report is Israeli pilots made uh of attack and that's again generous to your side. That's their last report of attack. McGonagal estimates that the attack was 5 to 6 minutes. Uh probably a gentleman pumping through his veins um thought it was a little shorter than it was. Um you talked about um the transcripts, the Israeli jet pilot saying, "But it's an American ship." and then being ordered to attack. Anyway, that appears absolutely nowhere in the transcripts between the Israeli fighter jet pilots and their air controllers. Um, and the state is communicating with them through their air controllers. It's nowhere to be found in there. Um, in in addition to that, this is completely against like Israeli code of conduct, right? IDF soldiers after a massacre in 1956. A Supreme Court ruling issued to Israeli IDF soldiers instructs them that it is not only um an option but a duty and obligation to Israeli soldiers to object and not follow orders that are blanketly wrong and immoral. Um, you said that they wanted to bring us into World War II. I don't think that makes any sense because again Egypt surrendered the same day. They they unilaterally agreed officially to a ceasefire only a few hours after the Liberty was attacked. Israel had them on the ropes. They destroyed 90% of their air force in the first day. And that brings me to my next point. Why would you, if you want to frame Egypt for an attack, why the hell would you attack them from air, right? Egypt doesn't have an air force at this point. And they don't fly Mysteran Mirage jets. They fly Mig21s. So that doesn't make any sense. And these jets look distinctly different than than French jets, dissol, right, which is what the Israelis were flying. They have giant red nose cones on the front of them. Um, you also said that uh you were ordered by the admirals to keep your mouth shut or die essentially or else or you know or worse. You know what worse means. I've heard you say that a lot. This would be my last point. Um, I can't disprove that, you know, Admiral Kid came in and took his stars off and uh, you know, ordered you to keep your mouth shut. But what I can say is that I imagine that if um it was a widespread thing that your crew was told to keep their mouth shut or they'd end up in Levvenworth or die, I imagine that um Ken Ecker wouldn't have given an interview aboard the USS Saratoga to the American Spirit on June 11th, 1967, only a few days after the attack. On July 11th, 1967, I doubt Richard Rainwright would have given an interview to the Oregonian. I doubt in 1979 the BBC would uh have published their Dead in the Water documentary with eyewitness testimony. It goes on and on and on. May 21, 1987, you had ABC aired interviews with survivors. Uh 1992, January 27th, that's my birthday. NBC behind the story 2009, Seattle Times published survivor testimony. And there are tons of other situations before that like um James N's book in what 1979 published only what a decade and a half afterwards. So, I I I find it hard to believe that if everybody was given this we're going to kill you order that they would have literally gone and spoken to the media three days after the attack.

Oh boy. Oh boy. Uh that's a lot that's a lot to respond to. Yeah, it is. Uh let let me start with this. Uh first of all uh as president of the LVA and uh Jill Meadows is a is a good friend of mine, an American hero and are are the rest of my shipmates and I'm I'm very honored to be their president and for for you to say what you just said is insulting to the crew. Uh, you know, the USS Liberty is the most decorated crew in the United States naval history from any any war. And you talk about the soundpowered phones, that's just what they are, sound powered phones. The soundpowered phone was not working. Why? I don't know. I went to the eye seaman and I got a uh a fellow by the name of Skolac, David Skolac. I asked him to take care of it. No. Uh I understand a sound power photo is not electrical. It's sound power. That's the name. And you you're talking about heat seeking missiles not being very very good. Well, they were very very good that day. And uh you know there's so many things that you said that uh that it it's hard to even to uh fathom but uh I I'll go I'll start with this. You were talking about McGonagle. You know uh I've never heard McGonagle say that. Uh we never strafed anybody. We didn't fire a shot. We weren't able to. if anything cooked off, it sure as hell didn't hit uh an Israeli torpedo boat. Uh they knew we were an American in and in in the area. And you you talked about uh not having a surveillance uh uh with us. We were never in a war zone. We never needed uh uh a surveillance to have somebody help us. We've never been in a war zone. We we were in a war zone then. That's why the captain asked for destroyer escort and and talking about a destroyer uh disrupting the most sophisticated uh technological spy ship in the world is ridiculous. We could bounce uh uh signals off the moon within 3 seconds. So that's ridiculous what you said there. And they they on their war table cam they had us on their table as an American and friendly and we have this on tape and we also have the pilots on tape. If you if you listen to those I don't think so. They said on their war table they changed the watch and took us off their table like we were no longer there. We were ghost ship. Why would they do that? And as far as French jets or or mid jets or whatever, oh, these these were a French Israeli jets blackened. They were blackened. The other aircraft were marked. They surveiled us for two days. I don't know how many times I have to go into this, but uh I can't remember all you said. Uh I'll I'll tell you what, Michael. Refresh my memory a little bit here so I can get keep on going here.

Well, Cam, you want to start with just uh why don't you go to your first two bullet points that you that you mentioned because Phil wanted to respond to the first the first thing you said and that was about the uh that was about the antennas.

Um, which which part specifically are you looking for? the your first point you make made was uh it's not surprising that they took out the antennas with a strafing rod.

Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean yeah you're strafing with fixed guns uh automatic machine guns uh that are fixed in the front of a an aircraft. It's not surprising to me that when you're looking at a cover a ship that's covered in antennas that you rake most of the antennas the first time you you pass it. Now I can't confirm that all the antennas were hit or weren't hit, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were. They weren't hit with machine guns. They were hit with heat seeking rockets. all of them and machine guns, rockets, cannons, and machine guns for a solid two hours. You ought to try it out sometime. Uh, you know, it's just I'll read you this. This is from Captain McGonagal. Okay. the uh captain of the US Navy enlisted 1994 1944, excuse me. And he says this, "Please do not release Jonathan Pard to the government of Israel until and unless the government of Israel acknowledges in writing and publicly that the the government of Israel armed forces and naval and sea deliberately attacked the USS Liberty ship on June 8th, 1967. I'll go on further." Admiral Thomas H. Moore. I have never believed the attack on the USS Liberty was a mistaken identity. That is ridiculous. Israel knew perfectly well the ship was an American. June 8th, 1997. We go on to uh uh Captain Ward Boston his declaration. Real Admiral uh Merlin Starring say it was not a mistake. Richard Hams, director of the CIA. No mistake. Clark Clifford, former Secretary of Defense. No mistake. Dean Rusk, no mistake. He was a secretary of defense by or secretary of state by the way. Marshall Carter, former national security administrator. No mistake. George Ball, former under secretary of state. No mistake. Uh on purpose. Uh Lucas Battle, one-time president of Biser. No mistake. FBI officials FBI officials uh counter that friendly spying can be a as damaged as spying for enemies. The note as in 1967 when Israeli jets deliberately attacked the electronics gathering ship USS Liberty, Washington Times. I could go on and on and on. George Ball, James Akins, Victor Ostrovski, uh Dwight Porter, uh Lewis Tordella. These are all all all very Listen, I've rubbed el ambo elbows with so many admirals and generals you can't believe. And not one of that I've ever talked to. And I I gave a a presentation to Army Navy Club with Admiral Thomas Moore. He was a former chairman of George Houston staff, a very decorated hero. And we gave him a liberty award. But he said in front of everybody, he's been slated till the day he died. The attack on the USS Liberty was deliberate, premeditated to bring us into World War II. Now, you want you ask why would uh we want to do that, Cam? We were set up by LBJ and Levy Ascol. I know you don't believe that, but it's the truth. To bring us into the war, sink our ship fast. Israel attacked us for two solid hours slaughtering my shipmates. You ought to see them on deck blown to bits in their bones and their blood and their meat. You ought to have seen that blood running down the deck. They're trying to shoot you as you get your shipmates off the deck. Try that one out. That's what they did to us. They did it for a solid two hours and left us out there for 17 hours. The government didn't even help us. Our own government didn't help us for 17 hours. That's what happened, man. We were set up. There was a submarine, a Russian submarine under us that was going to uh nuke Israel if if the planes kept on coming and they were from Sack aircraft. They even left sack before our ship was even attacked hours before that. And that's that's confirmed. That is confirmed. If you haven't watched Sacrifice and Liberty, you should. Sacrifice and Liberty was done by Rick Wilds. True News. Uh the the really the main thing that bothers me is you weren't there and and you're going off uh pieces of paper or or somebody sent you a text or whatever. Uh that's fine. I could do it by myself. If I don't need text or anything like that, Kevin, I'm not trying to be as smart as I'm just telling you, man. I saw these guys trying to murder all of us with my own eyes. I saw an Israeli helicopter come over after the attack. I was on the starboard uh side on the main deck. An Israeli helicopter came over with the Star David with Marines in him to board our ship and murder us all. I gave him the bird and I did. He gave me the bird back and they left. About 45 minutes or an hour after that, there was another Israeli helicopter that came over on top of us. They dropped a bag with an orange in it from uh Commander Castle. He was at Sha in in Tel Aviv. On the back of it, it says, "Do you have you casualties?" "Have you casualties? My god. Can't you see? You dumb so The old man says, "Get out of here. Get out of here. I don't want you around my ship. We didn't see anybody for 17 hours." And Israel never offered any help to us. Never. Ever. Ever. That's a lie. And we got it all documented. So, Cam, you can go on and say what whatever you want to about uh me, but don't disparage uh the gallant crew of the USS Liberty that I love dearly. And I saw my shipmates die in front of me, man. You know, you got to try that out. And I was there and I saw it. My shipmates saw it. We're not liars, man. We You think I'd be We'd be doing this all these years if we were liars and putting our integrity, our lives on the line. And believe me, when he said worse, he meant worse. I'm done.

All right, Cam. I'll let you I'll let you respond to a bunch of the points he made, but one thing when you're when you're done responding, um, one thing you said about the Napal, the use of Napal, um, and address this after you respond, are you are you claiming that you don't believe that there was actually use of Napal?

No, no, no. I'm claiming that I do believe there was use of Napal, but what I'm saying is that if you wanted to sink the ship, you wouldn't use Napal because Napal's not going to sink a ship, right? Uh, Napom sounds like they probably had the aircraft loaded with uh, stuff to use on people on the ground, but were dispatched from that mission to the Liberty and weren't outfitted with the equipment to actually sink the Liberty. Otherwise, they would have stuck three iron bombs through the deck of the ship and it would have been sent straight to the bottom, but it wasn't. Um, so uh, as far as what Phil said, I I want to start uh this segment of me talking by saying this, I am in no way denying a that this was a horrendous tragedy. Again, I love my country. I love my service members and I hate it when service members die. What I also hate though and what I do not love is the twisting of the death of service members to extract a certain narrative. Um, it's a tragedy all around and and I'll grant this too, Phil is a hero. Phil actively rushed around the USS Liberty putting out fires and trying to save people's lives. He even uh assisted the doctor Kefir on the ship in an operation on another soldier. Um, Phil is undoubtedly a hero. Um, and he deserves all of the commendations he's received. I just don't agree with his telling of the story. Um, and and I'd like to further say Phil said that what I said is insulting to the crew. But really what I'm using is the testimony of the crew. Half of what I said in my last speech was um, testimony from other survivors like Captain McGonagal, Lloyd Painter, Theodore Arn, etc., etc. These are not my words. These are their words. Um, so I don't know how they could be insulting to the crew when I'm just citing the crew. The only other thing that I referenced was for example the um the flight the communications between the Israeli fighter jet pilots and their air controllers and that actually was in assistance to Phil's argument because it extended the period of time in which the attack was happening compared to what his his commanding officer claims it was five to six minutes for the air attack. Um, as far as um the heat seeking missiles um so Israel did have some like heat-seeking missiles at this time. They had the Shafir one in the R530. They were early early French infraredg guided missiles. They weren't really heat seeking and they were extremely inefficient. Um they they were tested over and over again and always shown to uh miss their targets. So, I highly doubt that they were able to use heat seeking missiles to take out all the antennas. Regardless of whether they did or not, that doesn't prove that they knew it was an American ship. So, it's not really relevant to the conversation. Um, he's Phil says that they never fired a shot. The Liberty never fired a shot. But I have right here, and this is from the LVA's website, the Liberty Veterans Association, of which Phil Turnney is the president, from McGonagal. Instantly, machine gun 51 opened fire. Machine gun 53 began firing at the center boat from the uh from the fire from the starboard wing of the bridge. I observed that the fire from machine gun mount 53 it was extremely effective and blanketed the area to the center of the tor uh the center torpedo boat. It was not possible to get to get to Mount 53 from the starboard wing of the bridge. I sent Mr. Lucas around the port side of the bridge around to the skylights to see if he could tell Quantero, whom I believe to be the gunner of the machine gun Mount 53, to hold fire until we were able to clarify the situation. He reported back a few minutes later to the effect that he saw nobody on Mount 53. As far as the torpedo boats are concerned, I am sure that they felt they were under fire from the USS Liberty. At the same time they opened fire with their gun mounts and in a matter of seconds one torpedo was noted crossing a stern the ship in about 25 yards. Uh the time that this torpedo crossed the stern is believed to be about 1426. Now again McGonagal is uh not at this point he's not referring from the actual deck logs of the ship because there are no deck logs. This is purely from his memory. Uh Lloyd Painter puts it at uh about 14:30 which again is a credit to to Phil's argument here about for but really what really matters is the chronology about 1427 without advanced warning the ship sustained a torpedo hit on the starboard side forward immediately below the water line in the vicinity of the uh coordination center the ship immediately took a 9-degree list to starboard uh oil and debris were noted coming from the starboard side following the explosion there was a major resultant fire from this explosion And let me just get to uh where it is that he talks about. Um he talks about the lifeboats a little bit in here. Um and he didn't want people throwing the lifeboats over because it wasn't the ship wasn't sinking. It wasn't going under. Uh but I really want to get to the point where he talks about um the torpedo boats right here. The torpedo boats stopped dead in the water and milled around a stern the ship at a range of approximately 500 to 800 yards. And there's a question mark in the second digit of that. Uh, so we'll just put it at 800 yards to credit Phil. Um, one of the boats signaled by flashing a light in English, do you require assistance? So, I'd like to further reiterate the fact that this this attack lasted no more than 2 minutes because traveling at at a at a speed of 27 to 30 knots. You would close to 500 yards, which is where McGonagal puts this um uh where they were circling at about 500 800 yards. you'd close that 1500 uh yard gap in about a minute and 30 seconds, but we'll say two minutes to be nice. Um, so McGonagal talks about how as soon as the torpedo hit the ship, they completely stopped firing on the Liberty. Lloyd Painter says the exact same thing. I think that he said they um pressed off or something like that. Um, so anyway, um, definitely not milling around the ship and shooting people. McGonagal and Lloyd Painter both say that when they were milling around the ship, circling it, as Phil put it, they were not firing upon anything. Um, so, um, that's that's a lot that's a lot to respond to right there, Cam. Is it is it okay if we, uh, if we let Phil respond just what you just said there and then we'll jump right back to you. I just don't want to get too many points where it gets sort of buried in the weeds.

That's fair. I just want to say to be clear, these are this is McGonagal's words and this is directly from the Liberty Veterans Association website. They took it down presumably because it doesn't fall in line with their narrative, but the way back machine works and this is directly from the LVA website of which Phil is the president.

Yeah, I am the president and uh I'm the fourtime president. Uh, you know, it's very interesting uh that was there. Uh, do you know uh Captain McGonagal? If there's any captain in the world that got more pressure put on him. I can't think of any other. No man in history has taken the pre pressure he did from our government. And what all that stuff right there you just heard, that was all [ __ ] And every crew member will tell you that that in fact the deck logs were even changed. You're not supposed to do that. That's again that's against uh uh the MCJ MCMJ. You can't do that.

So really quick uh before you before you continue, Phil, so the document that Cam was quoting from here, that was testimonies from other sailors on board. And are you to clarify, are you saying that they were under duress when they made those testimonies?

I'm not saying I'm not saying the other survivors that were on the on the uh America didn't say anything. They hadn't been they hadn't been uh indoctrinated yet. They they were wounded. Th those guys were wounded. They they haven't talked to anybody. Of course, they're going to say something. But uh what they said, I don't know. Uh is it I I don't find any reason they would say anything uh different or lie. But my my point being, and this is very important. Now, Lloyd Painter, I've got an official document. He said in his testimony, the board of inquiry that the life rafts, we only had three left because they shot them all up. Every life rafts for 294 souls and they shot them all up. We only had three left. Lloyd parent his sworn statement to the board of inquiry was never included that he saw them shoot the life ra as I did in my sworn statement to the board of enquiry that was never included and how many others weren't included probably all of them but the the captain at the end of his life and this is an interesting story my division officer captain or excuse me uh lieutenant commander excuse me he's a commander now he's passed on, but George Golden he him and uh the old man were really good friends and and uh Captain was dying and uh of cancer and I saw him just before he died. I went there when he died, but but uh George talked to him. He told everybody and he told the crew. It's it's on tape. Uh, McGonagle said to George, he said that I I lied. Uh, I sold you I sold you guys out and I I'm sorry. He got a brand new ship. He got the Medal of Honor and uh which he deserved the Medal of Honor. He deserves a Medal of Honor. But you know uh and I'm not trying to run down the captain. He was a hero. I saw him on the bridge, you know, uh already wounded and uh given orders. But uh what what the testimony of fact is not the fact. The board of inquiry is a is a pos it's not worth the paper it's written on. And uh they were ordered by Admiral uh John S. McCain, LBJ, and everybody else on line and that little cabal they had to uh uh betray America and get us into World War II and have Israel, the hitman, uh get us. That's what it was all about. you know, uh the the the you know, like with uh uh Admiral Moore, he's been over the ocean many many times. He says that was the easiest ship in the world to identify, but everybody knows it. The facts speaks for themselves. I just Cam, nothing personal against you, buddy. I believe me, it's just that uh You think I would lie to you now? I I man I swear to God I wouldn't. I promise you that. So uh I you know just go ahead and ask me anything you want to but it it's been proven that the USS Liberty was set up and and you need to watch Sacrifice Liberty. We got documents who can prove it. So uh whatever you've said, whatever else you want to say, that's fine. But believe me, this was a a pre-planned, premeditated attack on a flagged American ship in international waters. They knew exactly who they were killing. It was American sailors and marines on the high seas. And you saying they could have sunk the ship. They nap wouldn't have sunk the ship. That's the craziest thing I ever heard. They dropped it right on the bridge. Napom can burn you to pieces. It was burning all over the place. Are you kidding me? They fired five torpedoes. One of them hit the starboard side by a 40 by 40 foot hole. You said, "Well, why didn't they use uh bombs or leted bomb 500 lb bombs?" No, they sent the Israeli aircraft there to soften us up first. That attack went on for about 25 to 30 minutes. the torpedo boats come along and they weren't alongside just millie gagging around. They were about a thousand yards off and got a little closer. We saw the uh Star David. They got a torpedo launch attitude. I said this once before. They fired five torpedoes at us. One hit the starboard side 25 American sailors and marines to bits. They circled the ship, firing and firing and fired at our stretch of bears and firefighters and everybody else that moved to murder us all. This went on for another This went on for an hour and a half. The torpedo attack, the air attack was 25 minutes. It was a two-hour attack. And that's a fact. They shot all our laugh rafts up. You dropped them over the water. They shot them out of the water. That's a fact. We can prove it. They took one abboard their uh our their boat one inflate is a trophy of the kill and we that's in Hifa supposed to be maybe they moved it so it's his podcast or Candace's podcast but uh you can go on from for for a month of Sundays and quote anything whatever you want to do Cam but I ain't falling for it the crew's not falling for it and uh we're all decorated heroes. You think we'd lie. You think what you're doing? You're calling us a liar. You're calling us a liar. And that is not good. That is not good. You say you love your country. I'll tell you what. Go up and sign up and join the military tomorrow. If you love it that much, join. Join. Prove it. You love it that much. Go to boot camp. Join the Army, Navy, Marine Corps. Go to boot camp. Go through it and fight for your country. If you love your country so much, if you want to stand up for your country, I'm standing up for my country, the United States of America.

All right, Phil, that's a lot for uh Cam to respond to there. So, that's fine, Cam. I saw you I see you taking some notes there. Yeah. Yeah. I uh I I I hope that I'll be given enough time to respond to what Phil said at this point. He's had the time to make more points than I have. I just like to say, Phil, I'm not necessarily saying that you're a liar. You yourself have said in multiple interviews that

You didn't even remember the day that the Liberty was attacked because you repressed the memories for so long. So I think it's perfectly possible that you had resentment towards Israel because they attacked and killed your crew mates and that's perfectly reasonable and then built an idea of what you thought happened afterwards and you truly believe that. I'm not necessarily calling you a liar.

Um, why don't I like this argument of why if I love my country, why don't I join the military? It's a non sequitur. First of all, we're not at war. Second of all, um, I can love my country perfectly well without joining the US military.

Um, you said that McGonagal was under a lot of pressure, that his testimony was quote unquote [ __ ] which I think is extremely disrespectful to your commanding officer and recipient of the um Medal of Honor. Um, I I hate this sort of, "Well, this guy says that McGonagal said on his deathbed that, you know, he threw us under the bus." It's like, okay, well, Phil, you know, um, now I have contact with you. I'm I'm loosely affiliated with you, right? We're ever having having a conversation, I could easily establish communication with you. What if I called everybody after you died or I I made a public statement after you died and said, "Well, Phil just came to me with so much guilt. He couldn't live with the fact that he had been lying for so many years that he told me it wasn't a deliberate attack and that he was lying the whole time. What if I did that?" Right? It's not it's not an actual argument. It's completely circumstantial evidence with nothing that proves it.

Um, next, um, and I want to respond to some of the other stuff he said. He said that there were only three life rafts left and that um they were all shot up. Lloyd Painter talks about this in his sworn affidavit, which by the way was in 2012, not 1967. There's no evidence that he said this in the Naval Court of Inquiry at all. Again, this is like a revisionist history from 2012 that has nothing to do with what happened in 1967. So, what Lloyd Painter actually said related to his Naval Court of Inquiry in 1967 is he me he actually mentioned the life rafts, right? He talked about how they were strafed by the jets and that they were burning and on fire and they were knocking them over the side. um, which is like, why would they leave that in but omit that they were shot out of the water? It doesn't make any sense. The life rafts were shot by the fixed guns on the um Mirage assault fighter jets um and they were thrown over the water.

Now, McGonagal specifically talks about this in his Naval Court of Inquiry. He talks about how there were a few sailors um that misinterpreted his prepare for torpedo fire order as an abandoned ship order and started throwing life or prepared abandoned ship order started throwing life rafts over. He quickly had somebody get down to them and tell them that we're not abandoning the ship. Ship isn't sinking. Um, and then no more life rafts were put in the water after that according to McGonagal.

Now, what's interesting is um a long after the attack ended. So um the the attack fully ended according to McGonagal and all of the transcripts um that are objective primary sources, the attack was completely over at 14:35 local time. Okay. The NSA intercepts of the Israeli helicopters show that the Israeli helicopters found the lifeboats you're talking about fully intact at 15:06. The problem is these helicopters were zooming around and trying to figure out who the hell you guys were. Right? So, um, the MTBs had communicated with the Air Force and said, "There's some lifeboats. Go find them." So, the Air Force is now telling the Hilo pilots, "Go find those lifeboats and pull somebody up out of them to identify their nationality. Once you find their nationality, tell us. It's very important that you identify their nationality." And they get over the boats at 15:06 and they're like, "Uh, there's nobody in the boats. They're they're just floats boats floating." This was after the attack was concluded and different parts of the Israeli government had figured out who this was, right? The Air Force had figured out that this was an American ship by the end of the air attack, but clearly these people weren't very good at communicating with each other if you look at their transcripts because they're all thinking and saying different things. The MTB motor torpedo boats are are actually coming to help you guys, but they're like, "Who that like who is this?" Because they're required to by international law to come render you assistance. Like who is this?

Then according to McGonagal, the Liberty accidentally opens fire on the MTBs, and that's when they opened fire on you guys. They were coming in to render assistance, closing in you guys at at 2,000 yards, and they did not open fire on you guys until after the Liberty opened fire on them and blanketed with extremely effective fire, according to McGonagal, the center motor torpedo boat, and then they launched the torpedoes. And then after the torpedoes were launched, it was completely over. The attack was no longer than 2 minutes and the first air attack was 14 minutes. McGonagal estimates that it was 5 to 6 minutes. And to say that McGonagal was just lying for his own greed and to get a new ship and to maintain his rank and get promotions, I think is extremely disrespectful to McGonagal. Uh, everything I've seen of McGonagal, he's an extremely respectable man. And at the end of his life, he did, I assume, under your influence decide that he believed the attack was deliberate. And he talks about this in an interview that you guys have published on the LVA website. He says, "I now believe after most of my life believing this was a mistaken identity. I now believe this was an intentional deliberate attack by the Israeli government on a US vessel. And the reason is because I later found out that they sent out these aircraft to come help us and then they recalled them." But again, as we know, the aircraft were recalled after the attack was fully over. Okay?

And this crap about LBJ. And I'd like to point out, none of this is your firsthand recount. You don't know anything about LBJ. You weren't in the room with him. You didn't see him. You've never spoken to LBJ, right? You don't know any of this. Okay, so this LBJ thing is is complete ludicrous. Okay, LBJ had no idea what was going on. Okay, McNamara um said in an interview that LBJ was sleeping when they found out that the Liberty was attacked. He was in bed sleeping and he had to tell a marine to go wake him up and the marine was like, "Uh, I don't think so." And then McNamara was like, "Wake his ass up." And he did. Um, and at uh 11 a.m., that's about 17:00 local time where you guys were, um, Lyndon Johnson sent a teletype message to Kosygin, who was the prime minister of Russia, saying, "We just learned that the USS Liberty, an auxiliary ship, has apparently been torpedoed by Israeli forces in error off the port of Sed. We instructed our carrier, the Saratoga, now in the Mediterranean, to dispatch aircraft to the scene to investigate. We wish um you to know that this investigation investigation the sole purpose of the flight aircraft." At this point, the jets had already been recalled. Lyndon Johnson has no idea what he's talking about. They were recalled a half hour prior. He's not in the loop. Okay, this is all um the admiral, the sixth fleet commander that is communicating um orders to the sixth fleet to recall and launch aircraft. Uh, and again, those aircraft were were recalled after the attack was over because what are a bunch of A4s going to to do for you guys, right? They're not going to circle the ship and waste fuel. The ship's not under attack anymore. They don't need air support. These aren't rescue aircraft. They're A4s. They're not going to provide you aid. What you guys need is ship-to-ship, right? You guys need people brought from your ship onto a different ship, the Davis and the Massey. And so they brought the aircraft back and dispatched the Davis and the Massey to you guys to provide ship-to-ship aid. And that's exactly what happened.

Um, you talked about they sent Israeli aircraft to soften you up. Doesn't even make sense, right? When you could outfit the aircraft with bombs, if you're planning an intentional attack, if you could outfit the aircraft with 500 lb bombs that are going to sink the ship in one pass, why wouldn't you do it? It doesn't make any sense to waste more assets and time trying to sink the ship than you need to. And again, this this dissonance of they had unmarked aircraft and then they came in with marked boats. Again, doesn't make any sense. It's complete like an incoherent thought.

Um, you talked about um, uh, the Russian submarine. I've looked into this submarine theory. There's no evidence to confirm it. Um, does it make why would they be nuking Israel? They're like loosely affiliated with Egypt. And again, Egypt uh, had already surrendered that night. Uh, Jordan surrendered the prior night and Lebanon and Syria uh, Syria specifically would surrender later this week.

The helicopter, you talked about the helicopter that came up to you guys. McGonagal and Lloyd Painter both talk about this helicopter that approached the Liberty. You say it was aggressive. They were armed to the teeth. The Marines were going to board the ship. McGonagal says they approached uh the side of the ship at a distance of like 200 yards, never in an aggressive manner. They didn't know the intentions, but it was never in an aggressive manner, and there was never any hostility. Lloyd Painter actually says um something really interesting related to this in his Naval Court of Inquiry. Um, let me just find it real quick. Uh, yeah. Okay. So, yeah, Lieutenant Lloyd Painter said in the Naval Court of Inquiry that helicopters quote came out uh and asked us if we wanted aid. Well, they didn't ask us. They just came alongside and acted like they wanted to help, but we waved them off. And then like you said, the next helicopter that came literally had a US military attaché on it.

Time the Israelis were communicating with Washington and that's why ultimately the aircraft were recalled because Washington knew that Israel had attacked the ship and the attack was over. So, um, I by the way, I've watched Sacrificing the Liberty. I've actually watched, I think, probably every documentary you've ever done. And what's interesting is I've cited these helicopter trans or these uh, you know, Israeli transcripts um with the pilots and their controllers. And you guys actually use that same transcript in the uh documentary, but it's not available on your website, the transcript um which actually completely exonerates Israel. You you you show little snippets in the in the Sacrificing Liberty documentary, but you don't show the full thing. And I'm also Nobody's texting me. I I have a notepad here that I'm that I'm writing down your talking points on and I have a laptop in front of me that has uh the information I've gathered on it. So with that, go ahead, Phil.

Yeah. Uh, thanks Cam. Uh, that's quite a load. Uh, you know, I I I can't I really can't convince you one way or the other but uh, you know, like uh Ward Boston uh his declaration and you know about it, he recanted and he told him, you know, he was ordered by to be a good boy, shut up and that that's exactly uh, that's exactly what he said. Uh, why did he do that? Because uh he wanted to and and kid, I used to call him every Christmas, Cam, until he died. I say, Admiral, how you doing? Merry Christmas. Are you are you going to come clean this year? He says, "Phil, I can't come clean yet. I'll come clean when I'm dead." And uh he was a friend of mine. He was a good friend of mine and uh he hated it. You know, he'd cry about it. So uh that's what that was. And Ward Boston was his under his JAG officer, you know that. And uh he told the same story. Uh, you know uh, they were ordered, they were military men, Cam, and they said, you know, shut up. Uh, you know, this was a 7-day board of inquiry, Cam, on a ship that had over 820 rocket and machine gun machine gun holes in it. Excuse me. Over 5,000 machine gun holes in I helped I helped count them so I know how many there were. I helped count them and uh Ward Boston was a a proud man, a good lawyer and he just recounted it and said, no, that was that was a lie. It was a not a mistake. It was a It was intentional, cold blood. And uh I'm emphasizing cold blood, but it was cold blood. Uh, Admiral uh JAG, the senior JAG officer. It was a JAG uh officer uh Admiral Starring. He uh he said they took that report from me because I didn't agree with it. W Boston Boston said that they took it from me. you know, I don't want it. Uh, they didn't want him to have it, so they retrieved it. And in seven days, you get a board of inquiry to find out that it was a mistaken identity in a 7-day board of inquiry. It would take, look at the USS Cole, USS USS Stark, or any other investigation. You know, a few Marines just got sunk in a bunch of damn mud and killed. And that's still ongoing investigation. So they give us 7 days with 34 men blown to bits, 174 other wounded. Uh, yeah, we got seven days and told, you know, shut up whether you believe it or not, but that's the truth. And you can't refute all the generals and admirals and everything else that say this was a deliberate attack as well as the survivors. And uh, I am not belittling our captain. I know what he went through. I know what he went through. And a lot of people that are still alive right now that were aboard the Liberty still won't speak about it. They're too frightened to. I got a f I got a friend that got shot up on the Liberty. It's called his name is Nikki Lame. He's still got over 500 50 pieces of shrapnel in him and he was up on the M he was up on the uh uh 04 level when he got hit and he could tell you all about it. They're all eyewitnesses. You saw him at Sacrifice and Liberty. So, Cam, all I can tell you is I don't agree with you. I don't believe what you're saying and I think your documents documents are not worth the paper they're written on. And if you get anything from Israel, it's not worth the paper it's written on. That's just the way I feel. You're you're saying stuff that's not true. We were there. The attack lasted a hell of a lot longer than than uh 15 minutes or six minutes or 45 minutes. Lasted two solid hours.

Me. Are you guys all there? Good. Cam. Okay, cool. Um, so, uh, I guess I'll just I'll go in reverse actually because, um, you said something interesting at the end there that my documents are not worth the paper it's written on. Um, and I I just want to again like make very clear that this that I showed earlier is not my document. This is yours. It's from your website. You're the president of the Liberty Veterans Association. You guys very conveniently removed the Naval Court of Inquiry from your website. And on top of that, we keep talking about sacrificing liberty. And you just said something even more interesting about how my Israeli documents are not worth the paper they're written on. Talking about the flight transcripts between the fighter jet pilots and the aircraft controllers. Again, this is um the USS Liberty or sorry, the Sacrificing the Liberty documentary right here. The same communications that I uh I'm referencing, but you guys cherrypicked them right here on the seas. Even we have right here Royal uh and and the other fighter jet pilots that are communicating in the in the thing. This is the Sacrificing Liberty documentary. Um, now if you're wondering why it's on Twitter, it's probably because you guys actually took it down from YouTube just before this debate. I watched it last week and it was up on YouTube, but it's conveniently privated. I found the link and this video is private. We go back right here. Um, Sacrificing the Liberty. Here it is right here on YouTube. It pops up, you know, in the search, but when you go here, it's a private video. You can't watch it. Um, very convenient. I think that you guys probably didn't actually want me to watch the Sacrificing the Liberty documentary.

Talked about Ward Boston recanting his uh testimony. As far as Ward Boston goes, uh, Ward Boston's name and signature are on the US Naval Court of Inquiry. Whether he recanted it later or not, I think it's probably irrelevant, right? Because either way, he's a liar. He's either lying that it was fake or he's lying that it was true. One way or the other, he's a liar. There are the signatures of other people on that. And and even if even if they were coerced, Boston says that he was coerced into saying that it was a mistaken identity, right? That's what he says. Um, that doesn't change McGonagal's testimony because that that Naval Court of Inquiry is rife with the testimony of Captain McGonagal, Lloyd Painter, and many other people who were on the ship who said exactly the things I'm saying. I'm not using my words. I'm using their words. This is how they see it. The way I see it is how they see it. Okay. Uh, you said that Admiral Kidd was a good friend of yours, but you also said he threatened to kill you. That doesn't make any sense. Um, you said there's been no investigation, which is just fundamentally not true. Um, you had the United States Naval Court of Inquiry on June 10th, 1967. That's 2 days after the attack. On June 13th, the Central Intelligence uh, agency conducted their own investigation. The Joint Chiefs of Staff investigated it in June of 1967. You had the Clark Clifford investigation, LBJ adviser, you mentioned him earlier in July of 1967. You had the Senate Foreign Relations Committee where Secretary of Defense McNamara was cross-examined about the attack in July of 1967. I believe that one was primarily focused on communications, which is exactly why the US did do some form of sweeping this under the rug because at the height of the Cold War, you have an incredible communications failure where they can't reach their ship and tell it to stay 100 nautical miles away from the battle zone. Um, they cabled you guys five times. You never received it. I think the Liberty might have received it like the day after it got rerouted to a different place. The Senate House Armed Services Committee was investigating military communications and had a second uh a section into the USS Liberty where McNamara was interrogated in February of 1968. The House Appropriations Committee on May 10th, 1971. The Senate Select Committee uh on Intelligence investigated claims of crewman James Ennes after his book and found no evidence to support them in 1979. The NSA investigation in 1981. The House Armed Service Committee launched a probe uh in response to the LVA's claims, your claims, uh and found no evidence. I think what in reality happens is the LVA fundamentally misunderstands the difference between a congressional hearing and a congressional investigation. Usually when investigations are conducted in Congress, staffers do the majority of the leg work for actually looking into the topic and probing it. And they have a hearing to publicize their findings. But if there's no findings, they're not going to have a hearing to publicize them. And the fact is they didn't find any new findings from what had been previously found in other investigations, which is that it was a case of mistaken identity and there was no intentionality.

So, um, you talked finally about, um, I guess that pretty much brings us in a full loop. Now we're back down to you talking about my documents not being worth the paper they're written on. But in reality, these are all your documents and sources that you have used. Well, uh, but you but you cherrypicked them in this sacrificing the liberty documentary. You you specifically at the the very last section of the transcript between the Israeli pilots and their flight controllers is where uh they say it's an American apparently and that's after they've dispatched MTBs to come provide you guys rescue and they're no longer attacking. You guys played that in the sacrificing the liberty to say they're attacking us. They're Americans. They know we're Americans, but that was the very last thing said in it and they were no longer attacking.

Go ahead. Well, uh, first of all, uh, Sacrifice of Liberty is is not my film. It belongs to News Rick Wilds. And uh that was taken down by us for this reason. Rick Wilds is going to sell that film and have it go worldwide. Uh, is our hope. And we I did not know that that was even up there, but we took it down for that reason because uh we didn't want to mess with Rick. That's a copyrighted film. And so uh that's why we took it down. I just talked to him a few days about that. And he said, "Don't worry about it. I'm not mad at you guys." And that's that's one thing. Uh, you know, it's still up on Rumble. He He put it up himself on Rumble. Correct. Is it still Okay. I didn't Is it still up there? Yeah. I didn't I didn't I didn't know that. No, you might be right there, Cam. I didn't know that. Uh, of course, I can't do anything about that. But, uh, Cam almost let me put it this way. You know, I don't want to go uh hash over so many different things, but let me put it this way. Do you really think within how many minutes do you say the attack lasted, Cam? Uh, the aerial attack was 14 minutes and the torpedo attack was more the attack from the motor torpedo boats in totality was no more than two minutes. There was a hiatus between the two. But um, yeah, so in this 16-minute attack, a little longer because there was a the hiatus in the middle of the Okay, let's give it I'll tell you 38 minutes. Let's just give it an hour. Let's just give it an hour. Uh, you could do that much damage to a ship. No way. That ship was the worstly I mean it was blown to bits when it when that ship got hit and come up out of the water most broke in half. But by the grace of God, we stayed alive. That's the only reason I'm here right now is because of the grace of God and all of us that speak up for the truth. So you can you can say all you want about the facts or this that and you say, "Well, they're my facts." uh that what what uh McGonagal said is and I still believe uh and I always will believe he was coerced uh to say that because uh I was on the bridge with the captain and he says, "Those dirty son of a [ __ ], those dirty son of a [ __ ] what he that." So, uh, that's about as close up and personal as you can get. So, some discrepancy between the testimony of I can't really hear you, Michael. I apologize. My internet's backing up. I'll just let you guys keep going. Uh, Phil, I want to say um, you know, um, as far as they can't do that much damage in 38 minutes, I completely disagree with you. You had 14 minutes with multiple passes of aerial attack with uh, you know, with fixed machine guns and cannons and then they come down uh, you know, with the motor torpedo boats and they pepper it with a probably a 50 caliber machine gun and the MTBs and a torpedo that accounts for all the damage, right? You had multiple aerial passes and then you had the torpedo and the the machine gun fire from the um the MTBs. And by the way, like I fully believe that Israel was negligent in this situation. I just don't believe it was deliberate. I fully believe that they were um probably a little trigger-happy. Thought they were shooting up some Egyptians. Um, they're at the height of the Six-Day War and um and and they they made a mistake and didn't take all the precautions they should have. And and also this was a mistake for the US government. A mistake, right? Mistake. Communications errors. Yeah. But not but not a not a a grand conspiracy of collusion with another country to sacrifice sailors. And I just want to say the last thing about um you believe that McGonogal was coerced because he said those dirty Israeli sons of [ __ ] on the on the bridge? I'm sure he was pissed, right? I would have been pissed. I'm sure that you were pissed. And you're fully justified in being pissed about it, right? Fully justified, but that doesn't mean that's not what happened. And McGonagal said many times throughout his life, up until the end of his life, that he believed the attack was a case of mistaken identity. So on the bridge there, he definitely didn't believe that it was an intentional attack, but he was probably pissed at the Israelis for being so neglectful in their attack. And he said that at his Arlington speech, that the Israelis were incredibly neglectful and um this was a case of a miscarriage of duty or dereliction of duty, etc., etc., which is probably true. Yeah.

Okay. Uh, Cam, just in said 38 minutes. Figure this out. How long how many jet aircraft would it take to do that that kind of damage? How many how many jet aircraft? Two in 38 minutes. Two. They can't carry that much ammo. Uh, 821 rocket holes. Over 5,000 armor-piercing bullets. So, what do you think? You think the aircraft You think the aircraft went home and rearmed? Wait, wait a minute. I didn't interrupt you. Okay, go ahead. Wait a minute. And a 40 by 40 foot hole in the starboard side of the ship. You think how long will it take to figure it out? How many jet aircraft would it take to do that? How many torpedo boats? How many torpedoes? Yeah. So, I just want to be clear. Are you like making the argument that the jets went home and and rearmed or in the middle of the attack or I don't know what you're saying cuz that that is equally as improbable, right? That makes zero sense that they in the middle of this attack that according to you never stopped and never ceased. They went all the way back to Tel Aviv and rearmed and then came back. It doesn't make any sense. No, either they do carry that much they either do carry that much ammo or you're not telling the truth about how many holes there was. One one of them has to be true. Hey, listen. It was jet aircraft after jet aircraft after jet aircraft after jet aircraft after jet aircraft after jet aircraft. That's what it was all about. So don't tell me. So you're saying there more than two, but you yourself said there you said there was only two multiple. In every interview you've ever done, you said that there was a Mirage and a Mystere jets. Mirage and Mystere jets. You say two jets. Oh no. [ __ ] Mirage. I've watched every interview you've done in the past 10 years. I promise you in every interview you said there were two jets. A Mystere and Mirage. Okay. All right. By by your estimation, Phil, how many jets would you say there was? Probably 30 sorties. At least 30 sorties to do that type of damage. to do that. You think there were 30 aircraft over the 30 30 sorties? Yeah, I think what they just deployed the entire Israeli air force on you guys or what? Yeah, they did. You that is that is it crazy, Phil. And you know it sounds crazy. No, I'm not I I don't know how much how many jets they had or how many how many they wanted to use, but I know there was at least 30. And that's that is mathematically exactly right, too. You figure it out. 30 aircraft attacking me. How many bombs? How many bombs? How many rockets you think? So why does nobody not a single person says there was 30? How many missiles can a can a jet aircraft carry? Tell me. I have no idea, but I know for 30. Well, I do. Okay. How many does a does a Mystere hold? Four. Okay. Let's look it up. Look it up. How How many? That's on top of my head. Oh, right. Yeah. I never counted it before. I don't know. They can carry up to 55 missiles. Okay. No, not four. Well, I didn't know that was that that capable. Phil, you you really think I don't even know if the Israelis had 33 aircraft in their entire arsenal? This is insane. You think they were over you guys with the entire Israeli Air Force? That this is this is just insane. You know it's not true. This This would be the most elaborate attack ever in military history. And why is nobody else ever saying that there were 30 aircraft? That is so significant. The sky would be blotted out by aircraft. And nobody's saying that. Not in the Naval Court of Inquiry, not in any interviews, not in any books. James Ennes doesn't say that in his book. You don't say it in your book. You've never said it in in an interview before. Everyone always says two. Everyone. Everyone I've ever read has said two. Two airplanes. Okay. Let's go with two. They did a hell of a lot of damage. Okay. Now, we're back to say Okay, they got two aircraft. Okay. Say that's 50. That's 104. That's 104. And uh we still got a uh a little over two 150 to go. Okay. Okay. So, what's the argument now? Well, the argument is, okay, if it was only two Mysteres they carried 50 each, uh, you know, that doesn't add up, does it? Uh, well, I don't know that you're the one who's claiming the number. I didn't claim a number of holes. You did 821. Well, I think you actually you've actually said in your interview in like a previous interview that they made you stop counting the holes uh before you got Actually, they they told me to stop counting at 850 and they come up with 821. Maybe that sound a little bit better to him. Yeah. Wait. So, if you just look at pictures, wait a minute. This whole thing's been covered up and covered up and covered up. You're covered up for him, too, Cam. I hate to say it, but you're you're a cover up artist. Is I'm not. You're you're doing revisionist history. I I would fully agree there's probably 800 like like like small bullet holes, right? But if you just look at a picture of the Liberty, there's not 800 shell holes in it. If you just look at a photo, have you ever looked at the Liberty? Have you ever looked at it? Yes. Okay. Look at it real hard. Look at the damage. Tragic event. It's terrible. Yeah, they did a lot of damage. Not a tragic event. It was an on-purpose event. There even you haven't provided any material evidence to prove that. Well, listen. It is a criminal enterprise what they did. LBJ and the Zionist state of Israel com got together, wanted to sink an American spy ship, blame it on uh Egypt, and bring us into World War II. And that is a fact. LBJ was asleep. He didn't even know what was going on. He's telling Kosygin at 11:00 a.m., "Yep, we we just sent out some aircraft with the sole purpose of reconna he wasn't he wasn't uh sleeping. Yeah, he might be sleeping. He was sleeping with an air god agent. That's who he was sleeping with. Have you if you heard about that? No, I don't care about that. We're talking about the Liberty. Yeah. Well, you just told him sleeping. He was sleeping with an air god agent. That's what McNamara said. He said he was sleeping and he had to have a marine. Okay. Well, all right. Well, let's go. Okay. He's sleeping. He just went to sleep. He'd been asleep, though. His whole presidency, he was telling he almost brought us into World War II. That son of a [ __ ] almost brought us into World War II. Why? What's the incentive? What's the motive to do that, Phil? What's the motive to join this war? Greater Israel. Okay. Egypt was surrendering. They already captured They fully captured Sinai. Is Egypt surrendered the same day the Liberty was attacked. There's no incentive to drag America into the war. They were Egypt was already losing. The war was effectively dead in the water. It was over the first day. Hey, they destroyed 90% of the Egyptian air force on the tarmac, which again makes no sense that they would be attacking the the Liberty by air when Egypt didn't have any air any air force. Why? If I'm going to frame somebody for something, I'm going to think of a pretty good story, a pretty good, you know, I'm going to frame them pretty well, right? But if I say, well, you know, these guys don't have any airplanes, but we really want to make it look like they did it. Let's go attack the the ship by airplane. That doesn't make any sense. Well, we're going to fly Mystere jets. They fly MiG21s. Doesn't seem like very uh, you know, it doesn't make any sense, right? Oh, and by the way, they're already on the brink of surrendering again. They surrendered a few hours after the Liberty was attacked. Doesn't make any sense. It's not a coherent story. It's not a coherent. Okay. Uh, they can't I'm going tell you again. They had us set up dead to rights to sink us and that's exactly what they wanted to do. If you got to understand something, Cam, and it's taken me a long time to get over this in my heart and my faith. I I hate what two crooked governments did. And what the world needs to know, Cam, and I say this sincerely and respectfully to all everybody, especially you, sir, America needs to know the truth. And that's the only reason I'm here is to tell the truth. And we're not liars. We'll go before Congress. We'll put up our hands and we'll swear to God. We on our oath. We tell you the truth, but Congress won't listen to us. We're the biggest whistleblowers in the world, and nobody listens to us. Us sinking prevented World War II, Cam. Believe me, it did. You need to I would love to talk to you and and guide you through a few things. I'm not trying to be a a smartass on this. I think you're a good guy and I listen, you believe what you believe in, and I believe what I believe in, Cam. But I saw the carnage up front and personal from an ally and that's hard to get over. We may disagree, but I would like to be friends with you where we can just get along and have a civil conversation because I think you you are a good American and you don't have to be in the military to serve your your country either. I just ask you that. So uh I I would like to end on this note that we could leave here as friends to agree to disagree but uh I want to always remember my 34 gallant brothers that died and the the ones that are still living uh the greatest heroes the greatest men I've ever been lucky enough be president of the organization four times and uh I I love them and uh we're just a small family now. We're all dying out and we don't want to die with the truth not being told. And we swore that on our lives. If I if you know I'd give my life right now, if the truth would come out the way it's supposed to, I would give it gladly so the world would know. So, I'll leave it with that.

Yeah. Uh, Phil, I'm perfectly happy to leave here as friends. Uh, if you ever want to soundboard anything off me or anything like that, you're more than welcome to reach out to me. You have my contact on Twitter. Um, I'd like to remind my audience, I know everybody's watching on my end, Phil Turney is a hero. Again, Phil Turney rescued his dying and injured crewmates. The USS Liberty incident, regardless of whether you think it was deliberate or an accident, was an absolute tragedy. It was an absolute tragedy that resulted in the deaths of American service members and the injury of 174 of them. Okay. So, do not forget that. Do not forget the things that Phil did to defend his fellow Americans. I'm an American. I love my country. I love my veterans. Um, again, what I don't love is um seemingly twisting stories to um demonize certain people in the United States government and the Israeli government. I tried to defend my country here in its honor um to try to bring people to the belief that America did not collude with a foreign enemy a foreign country to uh sacrifice sailors and then collude with them to cover it up. Um, with that being said, I've heard Phil talk about this a lot and I've heard Joe Meadows talk about this a lot. Uh, Liberty Veterans Day, um I actually support Liberty Veterans Day. I I would love for the USS Liberty to be remembered and all of the men who never had the opportunity to come up and have their opinions shared about the USS Liberty. I would love for those men to be remembered and I'd love for there to be a big shining monument in their name. I just think that unfortunately the USS Liberty incident in totality is jaded by conspiracy theories like this that the United States government colluded with a foreign government to kill its own service members and then cover it up. And I think that if we moved away from the false stories that this was uh a false flag conducted by the United States government and the Israeli government and just looked at this as this tragic situation um where service members unfortunately died, which is exactly what it is, we could finally remember those those men who never got the opportunity to have their opinion about the situation heard because they died in that compartment or on the deck. Um, so that's the note I'd like to leave it on. Um, Phil, I appreciate you joining me here today. Michael, I appreciate you moderating the debate and I appreciate you being such a good host. Um, and yeah.

All right. Thank you. I appreciate you being here. Phil, you got any uh All right. Well, that Yeah, I still I still disagree with Cam. And listen, man, I I I'd rather have a friend than an enemy. And uh we disagree right now, but I think maybe we can come to terms. But you know, uh America is a wonderful place. Uh, we're fortunate to be here. And uh the USS Liberty story can change America. It can change history. uh every school and uh college should have uh uh a book or a chapter on the USS Liberty and what what really happened and by the grace of God uh that will happen because uh God is in charge, not me. I'm just his servant and I will continue to be his servant till the day I die. The truth matters in America and and uh America deserves the truth. And Michael, God bless you, brother. Thank you for uh being so cool to us. And thank you again, Cam. And uh I guess I'm going to go get some dinner. Have a good dinner, Phil. All right, guys. Thank you both for being here. I really I really appreciate both of you guys uh taking the time to do this. And hopefully uh hopefully you guys will remain friends and talk about this a little more in the future.