Transcription
Always first choice.
Andy Burnham is now the UK's seventh Prime Minister in just 10 years. His predecessor, Keir Starmer, who resigned on July the 20th, became the latest casualty of what many are calling the Brexit curse. Burnham's challenges ahead include winning back voters from the anti-immigration Reform UK, rebuilding trust in government, and restoring confidence in an increasingly divided country. And beyond Westminster, Burnham faces a daunting foreign policy agenda.
The UK is dying.
Resetting relations with Washington and Europe, and answering a bigger question, Britain's place in an increasingly uncertain world. Our guest believes Andy Burnham has the best chance of turning the UK around after a decade of political turmoil. He's witnessed and helped shape many of the defining moments of modern British politics. Best known as Tony Blair's spokesman, press secretary, and director of communications and strategy. Author of the acclaimed Alastair Campbell Diaries, one of the UK's most influential political voices, Alastair Campbell talks to Al Jazeera.
Alastair Campbell, thank you so much for joining us on Al Jazeera. We've got another upheaval in UK politics. Andy Burnham now the new Prime Minister. You've known him, I think, since his early 20s. Um, why should UK voters be confident that he is the right man to lead the country?
Well, look, you're right that we've had upheaval. He's the seventh Prime Minister in just over a decade. Um, and that is since Brexit, which I think tore our politics apart, and I think we're still recovering from it. I think that Keir Starmer had a lot of strengths, his predecessor, but I think Andy Burnham is probably seen by the public as more empathetic, perhaps has a better sense of the challenges that people are facing in modern Britain, but we're going to have to wait and see. I mean, I've always said you never quite know however experienced somebody is in politics, you never quite know until they get to the top job how they're going to do it. So, I think there is a sense of optimism around at the moment, but we'll see how it goes.
Yeah, the obvious question would be what are the biggest challenges, but I think the challenges are obvious to everyone. In your assessment, what do you think he should be focusing on?
There is a real sense of of Britain um I think it's still struggling to regain its confidence. I I just wouldn't underestimate how much damage we did to ourselves through Brexit. We've had a decade of politics since then of people really not wanting to face up to that, particularly the the conservatives, but also the government under Keir Starmer I felt was being very very slow, maybe just to to to be honest with the public about the damage that's been done. So, I I actually think that getting the economy uh growing again and that is going to require an awful lot of hard graft. Uh our position our place in the world I think is important and you know, that might not be what sort of motivates people, but I I I really do believe that now the link between domestic and foreign policies is so narrow as to be kind of almost invisible. And I think what you're seeing from the first 3 days of Andy Burnham's uh time in Downing Street, he is very very focused on cost of living. He's made a a number of changes already um in relation to things like bus fares and today in relation to business rates, uh particularly in relation to the night time economy. Uh VAT on electricity bills, he's basically signaling I get that people are finding life a real struggle at the moment. But through that, once he's established a new style, established a new way of operating I think the bigger questions are going to be how do you get the economy growing in a in the modern age? How do we deal with the AI revolution? How do we deal with Trump in America and the chaos he's bringing upon the world? Um and for me, big question, how do we rebuild our relations with Europe?
Mhm. Um you've said the politicians that you've interviewed on your podcast, The Rest Is Politics, are so much more impressive if they're actually out of politics. They have a freedom uh to express themselves more. Is there a concern, do you think, that um Andy Burnham's shine might fade once the reality of running the country kicks in?
Well, he's never been out of politics. I mean, you know, being mayor of Manchester is a pretty big job and uh by public consent he's done it well. Of course, he was a cabinet minister before that. And I've just been rereading a book that Andy wrote a few years ago. He co-authored it with his friend and colleague, the mayor of Liverpool, Steve Rotheram. And it's interesting how much of the things that how many of the things he's talking about now, today, are the things that he's been talking about for a long time. So, I guess the question is whether the sort of politics and the sort of policies that he brought to bear in Manchester with considerably faith, can then somehow be adapted and transformed to all the United Kingdom. The truth is in modern politics, particularly in in in genuine democracies, then I'm afraid it just goes with the territory. The the the hatred that there was for Keir Starmer, I think a lot of it was manufactured. I think a lot of it was driven by by organized people on the right on social media. They're now going to forget Keir Starmer and they're going to move that all that to to Andy Burnham. The question then is how do you how do you deal with that? So, there's always a risk in modern politics. There are very, very few leaders in democracies who are popular. Um and that is sort of a commentary upon our times. It's a commentary upon what people think of politics. It's a commentary of on how hard politics is when the public and the media are so demanding of politicians.
Mhm. There is an argument that Keir Starmer and the the Labour Party originally got in, at least in part, because they simply weren't the Tories. And is there a risk do you think that Andy Burnham could face the same criticism that he is not Keir Starmer and that in part is what has driven him to this post?
Yeah, there's always that possibility, but I think that the re- you're right that Labour largely got elected because the public was sick to death of the Tories and wanted rid of them. And then they were at least persuaded enough to give Keir Starmer a majority say that the change he was promising was the change that they wanted. But people's impatience for change is pretty profound, I would say. And you've had you know, you've had a generation growing up, first generation not able to say, "We're pretty much guaranteed to be better off than our parents." So, that's what we have to fix. And um I [clears throat] don't think it's And let's be honest, that the the comparison that people will make people will make the comparison obviously between Andy Burnham and Keir Starmer, but the comparison that has to be made is always between Keir Starmer and the opponents. And I think the reason why the Labour Party decided there had to be this change is because [clears throat] it wasn't as if the opponent the main opponent was a kind of, you know, moderate mainstream Conservative Party. The opponent is right-wing populism. Right-wing populism we've seen fail in so many other places, not least uh the United States of America. And so, I think the reason why Andy Burnham managed to engineer this situation to force a by-election to become the leader, get elected, become the leader of the Labour Party, and become Prime Minister almost seamlessly, ridiculous on one level, but extraordinary on another, is because Labour MPs looked at him and thought he could be the guy to stop the rise of this far-right populism. And thus far, I think most of them think, "Yeah, they probably made the right decision."
Yeah, I I mean, it is at the same time um evident that Nigel Farage and Reform have changed the face of UK politics. Why do you think that so many Labour voters decided to turn in that direction?
Listen, most of Reform's support comes from former conservatives or from people who never voted. Um it's a it's a bit of a myth that they are sort of dominated by former Labour voters. I think that there's some Labour voters went to them. I think a a lot of Labour voters went to the Greens. Uh and I think a big driver for that was the feeling that at the start of the aftermath of October the 7th that Labour were too slow to recognize that however horrific the attacks were that Israel's response to it was in many ways unacceptable.
[cough and clears throat]
Excuse me. So I think that um and and I was pleased actually that Andy Burnham said in the in immediately becoming Prime Minister, he said Labour is not going to win again by out-reforming Reform or out-greening the Greens. Labour has to have its own agenda. So I don't think we should overstate this idea that this is about Labour voters flooding to Reform. Reform have done very well up to now. I think he's peaked and he's in really big trouble at the moment because of some financial scandals that are bringing to that that are coming to bear. And he's finally getting some of the scrutiny that senior politicians in this country ought to get all the time. He's got away with far too much for far too long. But I think that in the end it's about what Labour says and does about itself as much as what they say and do about their opponents. So and and you're right that listen, Nigel Farage is a consequential figure in British politics. I doubt whether Brexit would have happened without him. Um it's another thing that I blame him for. And but Labour now has still has a big majority has a program for change, has to get on deliver it and make sure that people realize that the choice that they face if they do get a right-wing populist government is going to take this country in a very, very bad direction. That's the argument he has to win.
I want to move on to foreign policy because that's a key element of what we're going to be looking out for over the coming weeks. There's going to be a big foreign policy speech at some point that he's going to have to make, and yet it seems to be the area where we know least about what Andy Burnham his his position is. Now, again, I was listening to one of your podcasts and there was a very interesting question that was put there that on the basis of where he goes next with foreign policy, it also begs the question, where does Britain see itself in the world? And you alluded to that just a few moments ago. How do you think that Andy Burnham would choose to define Britain's position in the world?
I mean, if you go back to what I know he believes, for example, he is very pro-European. I think in his heart knows that Brexit was a bit of a disaster, knows that we have to somehow fix it. But you have to bear in mind, you know, there is such a thing as the realpolitik. He was elected in a constituency, Makerfield, that I think was the sixth most leave-voting seat in the country. You have to be to recognize that.
[sighs]
But I think it will be a much closer relationship with the European Union. I think he will his his first conversation after he became Prime Minister with a foreign leader was with Trump. I think I don't know. Haven't spoke to him about it much, but I I think he will want to emphasize that the the partnership matters, but it's not the be-all and end-all of of British foreign policy. I think he'll want to be steadfast on Ukraine. He's already indicated very, very clearly that he thought one of the mistakes that the Starmer government made was in relation to Gaza and not being quick enough to see the nature of the disaster that was unfolding as an act of policy in in Gaza by the Israelis with American support. And then how he then wants to adapt to issues related to AI, for example, is he's appointed somebody very very smart to be the Minister for AI. And then how we deal with the rest of the world, but I think we he's talked a lot about trying to give Britain its confidence back. And I think we've lost our confidence, sorry to bang the drum again, in part because of the consequences of Brexit, in part because of this sense of our politics just being a bit of a joke on the international stage with this constant churn. And then the fact of electing, you know, people who were so obviously unsuited to be Prime Minister, particularly Boris Johnson and Liz Truss. So, I think he'll want to reestablish UK as a serious player in the world, but equally, I think he is and to project himself as a domestic Prime Minister. It's interesting he's appointed Ed Miliband as as Foreign Minister, former leader. Now, he's going to find, as every Prime Minister finds, that foreign policy is a very, very, very big part of the job. I said on the podcast recently, he has to set out a foreign policy vision pretty quickly cuz it does matter in the modern world.
With regard to the the foreign policy as opposed to domestic, he's he's going to be using what he's you referred to before, the Makerfield test, for example, to test foreign policy and other policies [clears throat] to see how they're going to benefit working class and post-industrial communities. But of course, not all foreign policy can relate directly to that. I mean, is does that limit the options that the government might have if they feel that they have to try and make that connection every time when it comes to foreign policy?
Um well yeah, I I get where you're coming from that and I I for example, and and look, economy's been in pretty dire straits, and I don't blame the Labour government for that. I think they inherited a complete economic mess. But, I was very, very disappointed, for example, when Labour went back on the manifesto commitment to maintain 0.7% of our gross domestic product on overseas aid and international development. A lot of the challenges that the world is facing last right now, climate crisis, is going to lead to more people trying to get to safer climates. There is going to be more war and instability if we have this geostrategic churn going on the whole time. But, I think you can make the case, for example, in relation to energy prices, which are, you know, huge issue right around the world. The truth is that two of the big drivers of that have been the Putin's Putin's invasion of Ukraine and the Trump-Netanyahu war in Iran. So, you have to make that link. You have to make that link. The question then is whether you can persuade people that the changes you're making in domestic politics have a rationale related to the other international issues that you're dealing with.
I want to come back to the what we were talking about earlier and the and the the priorities that he's likely to have. One of the first pledges, of course, that he made when he got into number 10 was to solve the problem or work towards solving the problem of rough sleeping. Now, you have spoken about your work with organizations like St. Mungo's. This is clearly a matter that that means a great deal to you. Do Do you think that the government can deliver on on solving that issue or working towards solving that issue when so many other governments seem to have failed?
I do. And and and there's two governments I can point to that showed it could be done. I mean, the Blair government had a rough sleepers unit working under the social exclusion unit, and we, by the time we left office, rough sleeping in Britain was lower at its lowest ever. Then it when then we had austerity under David Cameron and up it went again. When we had COVID, the uh the government the conservative government decided and and I could argue as I did at the time that this partly was because I think they were worried that people were going to be worried that homeless people, people living on the streets would be sort of spreading COVID, we got them all the government got them all accommodation. Um and you mentioned the St Mungo's charity. I was out with them last week. I mean, real crisis of rough sleeping in this country and not just in the big cities by the way. You can go to relatively small towns and you'll see people rough sleeping. There's all sorts of issues related to economic and social and related to our housing policy. So, all of these big issues have to be addressed, but I I was very encouraged by that. I think that I think it can be done. These things can only be done by the way if a government says they're going to do it, uh sets out why it's a priority, and then puts together the infrastructure to deal with it. Now, Andy Burnham made it a priority in Manchester. He actually had considerable success particularly in the early stages. Then the numbers went back up again for all sorts of reasons. So, yes, I think it can be done and I and I and and to be frank, I don't Look, we we're still fifth, sixth, depending which measurement you use, biggest economy in the world. We're still a relatively wealthy country. It's an absolute scandal that we have so many people living on the streets and you know, we must not so many ways we do not want to become like the United States of America.
One of the key elements as well is going to be immigration of course the reform and Nigel Farage putting that front and center. What is Labour's response to that? Or what should it be in fact?
Well, the Labour Labour's response has been I mean, there there there various elements to it and they have actually managed to get numbers down. Um there is still the challenge of the the small small boats crossing across the channel, which I think can only ever be resolved by through better international cooperation. But, this goes to the heart of the absolute kind of populism and the and the and the the sort of, you know, the the lies of the of the Brexit campaigners. Brexit was all about, you know, quotes, "taking back control." Partly because we've lost our membership of the European Union and particularly the Dublin Convention, we've actually lost control. Partly because so many Europeans left Britain, went back, doctors and nurses and carers and all the rest of it. We've then had to We've had what's been called the Boris wave of immigration, which is people from other countries, particularly India, Bangladesh, and people that have come to this country. We've also had, you know, people from Ukraine and people from Hong Kong, which I think the public are far more willing to accept. But, the truth is, we have to get the balance right between an aging population where we're going to need immigrants to do a lot of the jobs that British people frankly don't want to do, and we need high-skilled immigrants, high-paid immigrants as well. We've got to balance that against the political pressures and the pressures on public service. Now, the current Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, is taking a pretty tough, robust approach. Um and, you know, getting quite a lot of political flak for it. And in a very difficult political environment, because these charlatans like Farage, they're always going to make these this the big issue, whatever the numbers, cuz they haven't got much else to say about anything else.
I want to stay with the populism element just for a a second. How do you think Andy Burnham and his government are going to handle the special relationship with the Trump administration?
It's a Look, this there's always been a this special relationship. It was Churchill that coined the the phrase the special relationship. And, you know, when I was with Tony Blair, I saw that there was something special about our relationship. And I I think that one of the worst things about recent years is that our foreign policy essentially was built on twin pillars of being very close to the United States and being a leading player in the European Union. And we could be act often as a bridge between that. We've damaged that fundamentally. And of course Trump is damaging the relationship. He's damaging the relationship with practically everybody apart from, you know, basically dictators. So, I think that [clears throat] the foreign policy should always be defined as what are what are UK interests. I've set out some areas where I think that's important. But the truth is, he's the president of the most powerful country in the world, give or take China. Uh you have we have to have relationships at every level of government, at every level of business, at every level of culture and society. And that's that's good, I hope, for both countries. But I think, you know, Keir Starmer is not the first leader and he certainly won't be the last who has tried really, really hard to develop a positive, close relationship with Trump, which Trump has embraced until he decided not to. Uh so I think it should be based on principles, it should be based on values, and we shouldn't be afraid to call them out. Um I actually think Mark Carney may be paying a price economically, yet more threats of tariffs, but I think the way that Mark Carney has handled it is a good model for uh for Andy Burnham.
Mhm. You've often said that Britain is a much more pessimistic country these days. Why do you think that is happening? Why is it gone from being just the rigors of living in in any country anywhere to an actual feeling of pessimism in your estimation?
I don't I don't know if the country's but I think the country's feeling a bit ground down. I actually find even though young people have got massive challenges, way more than we had when I we were growing up. I I do lots of talks in schools and colleges and I I find a lot of optimism. But I sometimes feel there's optimism despite our politics. And what Andy Burnham has to try to do is to make people more optimistic in part because of our politics. Because ultimately we do need good good political leadership to change the country for the better. And the truth is we have got so much going for us. We really have. I mean, you know, there are massive challenges, but it's still one of the greatest countries in the world to live in. We still have one of the the best cultures in the world. I'm talking culture there, both historical culture, but also in terms of our music and our writers and, you know, our creators and our innovators. We've got so much going for us. And I think that we've lost confidence. I'm afraid I'm sorry to keep saying the same thing, but I think we've lost confidence because of the not just the fact of Brexit, but what it said about what our politics had become. That Just to give you an example, Nigel Farage, if you History will say that of the three key drivers of Brexit were David Cameron who called the referendum, Boris Johnson who led one of the campaigns and Nigel Farage who laid the ground for it. And now Cameron's gone, Johnson's gone. The fact we're even talking about Nigel Farage might one day be the prime minister. I don't think he will, but the fact that a lot of people think that he might, what does that say about our politics? That a guy who has helped to inflict the very thing that has weakened our economy, weakened our standing in the world, affected our confidence in the world, that we sort of think maybe he should be prime minister. It's a form of madness.
Mhm.
So we've got to get back If we're going to get back to serious, mature, sensible politics and regain our confidence, we're going to build on all the good things. And we've got to be honest about [snorts] the bad things that have led us to the mess that we're in. But I'm I am optimistic because I still think that if you if you look around Britain and you we've still got so many of the strengths that other countries, you know, And this is still a country people want to come to. And the other thing I should I just say on this, there's a If you read the national security strategy of the United States, there is a deliberate strategy of the United States to undermine European democracies, and we're one of them. Why does Trump bother attacking the mayor of London? Why do Why do they keep saying I literally have friends from America who phone me and say, "Is it safe to come to London?" I say, "Well, it's a lot safer than a country where you have most days shootings in the schools. We don't have that sort of thing. This is a very safe, relatively safe country. It's got a lot going for it, but that's a real problem we're dealing with, the fact that America special relationship {brackets} wants to undermine our democracy and the democracies of Europe, and doing it even more weirdly in alliance with Russia. It's really quite bonkers what we're dealing with.
Mhm. You were one of the architects in of New Labour back in in the 1990s. I'm really interested to get your perspective of how you see the Labour Party has changed from that point with the advent of Brexit, with the advent advent particularly of social media when it comes to coherent political messaging compared to the party that we're seeing now.
Well, you're right to point that it's not just the party that changes, it's the environment in which you operate. So, you know, I left Downing Street in 2003 and and New Labour left for good 7 years later, and I was part of that campaign with Gordon Brown. Through most of that period, social media didn't exist. The media landscape was totally different. It has changed politics. I thought at the start it would change politics for the better because I thought it would democratize the debate. I thought that it would break down the media oligarchs that do so much damage to our democracy. But if anything, it's even worse because it's created global media oligarchs that are doing damage to democracy right round round the world. I still think politicians underestimate the power they have if they have a clear agenda that they are absolutely determined to drive forward. And I think they should spend more time worrying about that and less time worrying about the about the media. And as to how the the the parties changed, look, I think that Tony Blair New Labour was a very clear coherent political position which a lot of people liked for a long time. I think that when partly because of Iraq, but not inclu- not just because of Iraq, but lots of reasons why New Labour became less popular, and I think as a result the succession of leaders that followed Tony Blair um ending with with Jeremy Corbyn, and then the party culture changed. We were absolutely beset with this issue of anti-Semitism that really kind of didn't define Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, but it but it sort of stopped him from projecting much else for quite a long period of his of his leadership. Um and then Keir Starmer, to his credit, got us back into a winning place. Uh but just you say how much has it changed, the fact that you can now have a prime minister elected with a three-figure majority and a landslide victory and two years later is gone. It just underlines how much has changed.
We've just got a couple of minutes left, but I do want to get your thoughts on If we you 10 years from now, if we're looking back on the Andy Burnham leadership in British politics as as it is at the moment, what would success look like to you?
So, look, I would like at the end of 10 years, frankly, whoever runs the country at the end of 10 years, I'd like to have to regained our confidence, to have got the economy growing again, to have public services that people really feel safe in, feel comfortable in using, health service, schools in particular, dealing with tackling crime, but also I'd like to reestablish our leadership role in issues like climate, issues like overseas development. Um and I think if if people want to get a sense of of Andy Burnham, I I I would recommend the the book that he wrote with Steve Rotheram. It's called Head North and it's very much about the north of England, but within it are a lot of the things that I think and hope he'll try to do with the country. He talks about a written constitution. We've got to modernize our politics. Our you know, we we've got this second chamber of the House of Lords. I mean, I don't know where they all sit anymore. There are so many people in it. Um and it it So, we've got to modernize our our politics. We've got to have more devolution. We've got to have greater power and a greater balance between London and the southeast and the rest of the country. Um So, we've got to get our confidence and energy I want a country with its confidence and its energy back cuz I think that's what we've had drained from us through this endless churn of prime minister after prime minister.
Alastair Campbell, thank you so much for talking to Al Jazeera.
Not at all. Thank you.