John Philip Newell: Listening for the Heartbeat of God

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Okay. >> The name >> does. Yeah.

Well, good morning everyone. >> Good morning.

Welcome to Christ Church uh into this time of conversation with John Philip Newell, teacher, poet, peacemaker and one of the leading voices reclaiming the ancient wisdom of Celtic Christianity for our time. Canadian by birth and also Scottish, uh he resides with his wife Ally. In 2016, he began the Earth and Soul Initiative, teaches regularly in the United States and Canada, as well as leading international pilgrimage weeks on Iona in the Western Isles of Scotland. John Phillip has a PhD from the University of Edinburgh and has authored over 15 books, including his award-winning publication, Sacred Earth, Sacred Soul.

John Phillip has served as the warden of Iona Abbey in Scotland, has devoted his life to the work of spiritual renewal, helping us remember what is most true, that the heartbeat of God pulses at the center of all things, that the earth is sacred, and that every person bears the divine image. John Philip has spent his life calling faithful people across the world to a vision of faith that is not about escape from the world but deep communion with it. A faith that listens, blesses, and restores.

Today we have the gift of listening together. listening for the heartbeat of God in John Phillip's words, the story of his journey and in our own hearts as we reflect what the spirit might be saying to the church today. So, John Phillip, welcome. We're so glad that you're here. >> Thank you, Conor. Thank you to be here.

I'm excited for our conversation uh today and I think we'll cover um cover a lot of ground, but I always like uh I had a mentor in seminary who said you should never open a gathering with prayer before people know what they're doing there because they don't know what to pray for. They're they're just kind of saying a general prayer. So, now that we're here and we know who um who we'll be hearing from today and who I'll be in conversation with, I'd invite you to a moment of prayer.

Um, we've all come from a million different places and things this morning. Some of you have dropped kids off. Some of you have just barely gotten yourself here with the parking being what it is. Um, I don't know about you, but sometimes when I arrive in this place, my mind is going a million miles an hour. So, I invite you to uh plant your feet on the ground in some way if you can. Let's take a deep breath in, deep breath out. Let your soul and body arrive in this space.

In the gift of this new day, in the gift of the present moment, in the gift of time and eternity intertwined, let us be grateful. Let us be attentive. Let us be open to what has never happened before. In the gift of this new day, in the gift of the present moment, in the gift of time and eternity intertwined. Amen. >> Amen.

So, I had the joy uh of meeting John Philip Newell for the first time in 2017. And I just wanted to set the stage um so you know where we met. I first read your work uh in college, a mentor priest of mine, Harold Hock. >> Oh, yeah. >> From Charlottesville. >> Yeah. >> Gave me Listening for the Heartbeat of God. Um and then fast forward to 2017 and we met on Iona and I was there for a retreat. And just again to kind of set the stage, um I do have an image um of me and uh John Phillip on Iona. Here we are in 2017. >> Wow.

Um, and I want to start here because uh I think it's a beautiful thing um that the spirit does in kind of weaving our stories together and putting us in uh the right place at the right time. Um, and I think there's a number of people here who may have never heard of you before. Um I think we have a lot of people who love your work but some people who may have stumbled in and wondered um kind of who is John Philip Newell their path has brought them to this moment. Um and so I think here at the beginning uh if you can just tell us what is the the spiritual uh origin story um perhaps the annotated version the spiritual origin story. Exactly. Um, >> yeah. >> That led you because I read the bio, but I know there's there's so much nuance there. Um, were you raised in a house of faith? Um, >> I was I I was um raised in a very conservative evangelical family and tradition. And while that uh has never been how I have defined myself, um I have great gratitude for the best side of the evangelical tradition that I inherited because it was a tradition that encouraged me to pay attention to the heart. I think that's the that's one of the the great gifts of uh the evangelical tradition in its origins. real attention to the heart. And it's interesting in in my journey because I have not only been very ecumenically committed but also very committed to interspiritual and interfaith relationship. And you know when I meet a rabbi or an imam or a native spiritual teacher, I'm very aware that what I'm doing first of all is paying attention to my heart and to the heart of the other. And I'm interested in the realm of ideas. But um but I think it's my evangelical upbringing that has really encouraged me to pay attention to the heart. So I I live with gratitude for that even though that isn't where um where I situate. And I don't know if um um my father was uh was a very good friend of Leighton Ford of of Charlotte, a brother-in-law of Billy Graham. Leighton thought he might be here. I I don't see him. Um but he's 94. And it was a wonderful reconnection the other night to actually meet Leighton Ford. And I think he he embodies that best side of the evangelical tradition. He's been a man that has paid attention to the heart and it has led him on a very rich and unfolding journey uh in his life. So that was that was my inheritance religiously. And um my father was Irish, my mother was Scot Scottish. Um but I and my three sisters were born in Canada. Um but with family on both sides of the Atlantic, so back and forth a lot. And then I went to study theology in Edinburgh and um then stayed on to do my my doctoral work there. And um you've you mentioned Iona that that was a really important time in in my life, four years as the warden. I I know that the term warden has other connotations on on this side of the Atlantic, but the warden is one was is one who wards or watches over the life of the community on Iona. And that was a really important time. That was a time uh in part under the influence of George Mloud, the founder of the modern-day Iona community that I began more and more to get in touch with the lineage of Celtic wisdom, Celtic Christian wisdom that comes down uh from the second century right through to today. And that's really what I outline in in my book, Sacred Earth, Sacred Soul. But it it was um realizing here within our uh Celtic Christian inheritance, we have some some profound Earth related wisdom to speak at this moment in time because we are maybe more conscious of Earth than than humanity has ever been. And we're in a a a crisis moment, a critical moment. uh if we don't move back into true relationship with earth then the very future of humanity uh as we've known it is is in doubt. So uh part of what I've been very committed to is to try to bring this ancient wisdom from the Celtic Christian world around sacredness of earth and the sacredness of every human being and speak it in in new ways for for today.

Yeah, that's a great um kind of segue to the we've already said Celtic Christianity a number of times. So I think kind of two parts of that. What do we mean when we say Celtic? Because that may call to mind for people a certain a certain thing. And you have a um I think a truer and more expansive definition of uh Celtic beyond perhaps just geography um of Ireland and Scotland and Wales and the uh the way we may think of it. >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean, some people may know about the Celtic through ancient Roman historians who described uh how the Kelts ran naked into battle. Um we're not doing that any at the moment. Um but the the uh the Celtic Christian tradition is characterized by this very profound meeting between the Christ mystery and the pre-Christian uh Celtic wisdom which is sometimes referred to as the Druidic tradition. And the deridic tradition was very aware of the harmony of the spheres, the healing energies of earth and and plant life, very uh attentive to the sacredness of the feminine as well as the masculine. And so what we see in Celtic, early Celtic Christianity from the second century onwards is a deep marriage or a meeting of of these traditions. Um, someone like the uh 6th century saint of Iona, Columba, referred to Christ as his druid. >> Uh, which which really underlines just how profound a sense of connection there was between following the Christ way and uh incorporating uh true and wise elements of the pre-Christian. So the Christ was almost seen as as fulfilling or bringing to greater fullness the the truths that preceded Christianity in the Celtic world. And um I think the other important thing to say about the Celtic world that many many people aren't um aware of. There's no reason for you to be aware of it. But uh we think of the Celtic world as limitedly Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Britany maybe, but that's just the edge. And uh at one stage the Celtic world spanned the whole of middle Europe, ranging from Turkey at the eastern side of Europe right through to the Atlantic coastline of Spain. Um, and then as the Roman EM empire expanded, the Kelts were pushed further and further west um to what we now sort of know as as the as the Celtic territory of Scotland, Wales, um, Ireland. Um, so it it's a it was a a rich uh inheritance in the Celtic world. Um from very early on we we are aware that the the Kelts were learning from from nature um even in their construction of their houses and gathering places. They didn't build um square shapes or rectangular shapes. That was a that was a Roman problem that we've inherited. um they built rounded uh structures and curved structures very much in in keeping with with nature. So you know artistically and and in song in inherited wisdom and then in spirituality uh there was a deep deep incorporation of of earth as sacred text that we need to listen to and some of you may have been at the 8:45 uh this morning and we were drawing from that great prophetic wisdom of Jeremiah who speaks of coming to know the law of God written in our heart or in our being. And that's uh that's a feature of the Celtic tradition that's very strong. So there's this sense of God is speaking to us through three texts. Uh one is the little book uh the book of scripture, one is the big book, the sacred text of earth and the third is the inner text, the text of the human soul. And that is the uh primary text that we we are being invited to listen to and to allow words of scripture to allow particularly the teachings of Jesus to be recognized as true. Scripture isn't recognized as true because the church has said it's it's divine or inspired. It's recognized as true because it resonates with uh with our depths made of God. uh and and we we learn from uh the sacred in the great text of of earth as well. But it's always sort of paying attention to those three three texts woven together.

>> Yeah. And I I think the um that calls to mind the another Canadian um Charles Taylor. He's a philosopher who wrote a really big book called the secular age of the world we live in now that we uh live in this place where more people are spiritual but not religious but even more people won't even go so far as to say spiritual it's just kind of been vacuumed out of the world and Taylor has this really beautiful image that you know up until 500 years ago or so the world was transcendent it was shot through with mystery and with magic and then at the Enlightenment and the Reformation and on all of that kind of got vacuumed out in a way as though the only thing is is what we can see, what we can scientifically prove. Um, but Taylor has this great image that I think corresponds to these texts you're talking about. Um, he calls it crossressurization that the issue is we're crossressured because intellectually we know or at least we're told there's nothing bigger. It's just us. It's just science, the kind of bare facts of life. But he says we all have these moments of transcendence that where the word is written on our hearts and we know and the image he uses that you use frequently is um when we hold a newborn child, suddenly that word written on our hearts speaks up. Um or when a loved one dies, but they come to us in a dream and they're present to us. Um, suddenly we're brought up against uh the mystery and the transcendence once again. Um, so I say all that to say I think Celtic Christianity, like you said, has a lot to say to us in this moment when the hierarchical structures are um, if they haven't already fallen, they're teetering. Um, and we're kind of caught here in this crossressured uh, crossressured moment. I wonder if you can speak about uh the soul um and that notion of uh the kind of deepest revelation of God being something we we know already um a truth that's written deep within.

M I think one of the richnesses of the Celtic tradition and you know I'm drawing a lot from from the Celtic but that's not to say that uh I mean I don't want to become a Celtic fundamentalist everyone doesn't need to become Celtic and there are of course very wise uh other spiritual traditions but the Celtic is the one that I um I've been particularly blessed by and trying to articulate But I think one of the great things about the Celtic um lineage of wisdom is that it refuses the the dualism that has dominated so much of the western world philosophically and religiously, spirit, matter, heaven, earth, the divine, human, all of these um so-called opposites. And the Celtic tradition wants always to live in relation to the interweaving of spirit and matter, heaven and earth, the divine and the human. And again, the art form of the Celtic world often reflects what what the spirituality is of of the Celtic tradition. So there's a a pattern that we find in so much Celtic art. Many of you will have seen it and and be aware of it. uh it's it's sometimes referred to as the everlasting pattern in which one strand is woven inseparably with another and you can't see where the one begins and where the other ends and it's a way of speaking of the interweaving of spirit and matter at time and eternity um and um and I I think for for that reason um a dualism of soul and body is is not not how the the Celtic tradition operates. Yes, they use the word body and they use the word soul, but this the soul is not so much seen as inhabiting the body which is tends to be a bit dualistic. Um the soul is seen as infusing the body. Uh so uh we can encounter soul in in the the mind. We can encounter soul in the body. We can encounter soul in that inner sanctuary of the divine within us. So the soul is really uh seen as the breath of life. And uh also there's there's a desire always to see our soul and the soul of earth as coming from the same same wellspring. um and and a very strong sense of of the collective nature of the soul. Uh that I'm I'm being invited to know my soul, my essence, uh not only as within me, but it's in relationship with you that I I learn about my soul. It's in relationship with one another. And there's a great uh tradition in the Celtic world that manifests itself very early on uh called the anamara. The importance of having a soul friend or a lover of the soul. And one of the things that is said about the anamara by um one of the first Celtic Christian teachers is show everything to your anamara. Hide nothing. And this is not because my anamara knows more of what is within me than I do. But the act of trying to show her what is within my soul um moves what is stirring up into greater consciousness and I am set free to show uh what is stirring within me because she loves me. the anam car is the lover of of one's soul. And um and I think that this is a really um liberating creative aspect of of the Celtic world because we've sometimes been given the impression impression that everything of ultimate truth has already been stated and it's been dispensed from above from a sort of hierarchy of religious truth. That's not the Celtic way. The Celtic way is to see that the well of truth is eternal. It's forever trying to throw up new awarenesses that we haven't yet become conscious of. And and it's living adaptive and we're being invited to access it together. Um and so that that makes it a very sort of dynamic uh tradition. Uh and and I think that's that's part of what we're being invited to see. Uh as so much western Christianity as we have known it collapses. We're in the midst of a seismic collapse. And um in a place like Scotland that collapse has really already happened. Um and and in England as well seismic collapse of of Christianity as we have known it. And um the way forward is is never to go back. The the way forward is not to make Christianity great again. Um and and there are some political parallels to that as well. Um so because what the way back tends to be uh the voice of fundamentalism. So at at ages of in times of transition, the fundamentalist within us, whether politically or religiously or culturally says, "Oh, well, what we need to do is go back." And um I believe that's never the the way towards wholeness. It's not to return. It's to ask what is the new thing? And and I think one of the things that we we find in the Celtic teachings is that one of our major faculties of knowing is the imagination. And um so part of what we are being invited to do is to imagine uh ways of being, ways of seeing, ways of interrelating that we that we've never known before. and um and to give expression to it. You know, why why do we think that that our soul's sacramental structure should just be ba basically what was defined in the 4th century and afterwards when Christianity became relig of empire? Um why do we think that um why do we keep repeating the nyine creed every Sunday? Um this was this was um dominated by the Roman emperor who basically told the church in the 4th century what was convenient to emp empire. Um a good friend of mine Matthew Fox whom whom you may have heard of author of original blessing he um wrote an article this past year called the hole in the nyen creed. um h o l e the hole in the nian creed and he says the hole in the nian creed is that there's not one reference to the teachings of Jesus >> that's an enormous hole >> and there's not one reference to um you know what we're focusing on this morning the law of love not one reference so um as as we move forward not by going back but by moving forward, let's find new ways of expressing our devotion to Jesus and his wisdom. Um, and and I I think, you know, people often say to me when we speak about the collapse of of religion as we've known it, um, some people will say, "What's what's going to happen to Jesus?" And I always say, "We don't have to worry about Jesus. I mean, he's all about resurrection." And um and um so his wisdom will continue to live and and a big question is whether we get to be part of of that uh finding new expression. And as long as we're sort of trapped in things like the Nyian creed, I don't believe we're freeing ourself to uh profoundly find the way forward.

>> Yeah. I've heard you use this image. you often refer to the Christian household which I think is a really helpful image that there are different kind of rooms and expressions within um the Christian household and um I'm not sure where but at some point you said that um the Nying creed kind of as the the pinnacle of belief now would be like every time someone comes to a house you your house you say now let's go look at our great-grandfather's uh will and testament everyone you must read this before you come into the house please um that that kind of uh there's a way to honor and to kind of hold our legacy to recognize the foundations that we stand on while at the same time saying God is still speaking. The Holy Spirit is still moving. Um and if we're not careful, we can kind of stop listening for the current action of the Holy Spirit. Um >> yeah. Yeah. >> And um in relation to that analogy, you're you're quite right that was well remembered from Richmond, I think. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um uh so part of what I say about the nine creed is it belong it it should have a place in the family library because that's what we um that's how we articulated uh faith in the 4th century when we got into bed with empire and um and it's important that that should be in the library because that's what we were doing. That's what we were saying in the 4th century. But I think it it needs to be kept in a very sort of remote part of the library uh only for scholars and such like to look at. Um but not dragged out every every week and every time we celebrate uh the bread and the wine.

>> I think um yeah, I mean I've said enough. Well, I think what comes to mind um is and this is partly how I received religion um you talked at the beginning about kind of knowledge from the heart versus knowledge from the head. Um and that we we need both really. It's not even verses. It's uh this kind of combination of the two. Um, but I think so often in the western church, we receive religion basically as trivia that there's are a lot of facts you need to remember and a lot of things you need to know to say. Um, which is all true. There there are things and stories we need to know. Um, but again, in in resting only on the trivia aspect, we lose the faculty of hearing um and listening for new ways that God is speaking. I love how you said that if if God's uh revelation is the book that was handed down from the hierarchy and this is all it is um well then there's no no real need for me to tune my ear um or to start listening for that resonance of God. Um and I think it can be scary to step out beyond trivia. Uh, one beautiful thing and I think it's why um I shouldn't say beautiful. One uh comforting thing about fundamentalism, the reason it rises is that it it's very clear. >> Yeah. >> It's black and white. Um and unfortunately we know the world is technicolor. It's it's different shades. It's not um it's not that simple. >> Yeah. And so I wonder um if you can speak a bit to that that reality, the um maybe the fear and the faith that it takes to step out beyond trivia, beyond the um we've put the nine creed in the library, but now we have to step um let's see if I can stretch the metaphor too far. We're going to stretch into the kitchen and have to make something new. Um right with the ingredients that are at hand.

>> Yeah. And the um the imperative of each of us um being called to read our heart and uh not not to abdicate that responsibility elsewhere in the household. Um and that's that's not to say that there isn't um great wisdom that's come down from the past. And that's that's one of the great gifts of of belonging to this um this ancient tradition that there is great wisdom that's come down from from uh women and and men of of the past. So let's keep listening uh to to their voice to their insights and always uh and always I think in in the Christian tradition to to make sure that we are listening in the light of Jesus's central teaching around love and to measure any teaching by that um by that measuring rod of love. And uh when when I'm doing my inner listening or when you're doing your inner inner listening, it's important that that we have people around us who love us well enough to to challenge what we what we say we're hearing within. And and the the tool for challenging is is always is this wisdom is this insight uh leading us to to in more deeply into the infinite expansion of of love. And um I I touched on this at the 8:45 this morning when I said that Jesus stands in this prophetic tradition, but but then he pushes it beyond anything that it is known. I love I love what Martin Buber, the great Jewish thinker, said about Jesus. He really loved Jesus. He loved the wisdom of Jesus. He saw Jesus as as his brother uh the brother within uh Jewish uh wisdom and inheritance. And he said um Jesus received from his own tradition and deepen his own tradition was that we are to love our neighbor as as ourself. uh and Jesus uh stands in that tradition, receives it and then pushes it out beyond anything that Hebrew wisdom had had uttered. And and he says it's not just your neighbor. Um, it's it's um an infinite expansion of love uh that extends also to how we are to see our enemy, how we are to see those who threaten us. And I I think you know your your reference to in times of transition when the fundamentalist raises um when the fundamentalist within us raises it its head. Um I I think times of transition are are often um fear fear driven for for many. And in a in a time of of fear, it it sometimes sometimes the the thought is, oh well, we you know, we go back or we go back we go to to what we've been told to do either by our by the state or by religion. Um and uh Jesus says it's it's perfect love that casts out fear. So uh in a time of transition when we don't quite know what is coming uh let's dig deep uh into our capacity to love uh because that that is what will release us from from fear and love will always look for um not just for the self but will will look for uh what is what is well for the for the whole and and I think that that's That's um a major aspect of love that we desperately need at this moment in time. Um in in this time of transition and and fear, uh it's not about making our nation great. Um we need to make sure that every nation is great. We need to make sure that the well-being of every people is being cared for. And it's in that context of wholeness and and the way love leads us into wholeness uh that'll cast out the fear um when we move into true unity or union with one another as religious traditions or as nations. That's not to say that we don't celebrate our distinctness and our uniqueness. Let's let's be sure that we really celebrate our uniqueness as individuals, as nations, as religions. But deeper than that, expression of uniqueness is to remember the oneness of which we are a part.

>> Yeah. Well, I love it seems like at every level um that call to deep love and the word I've heard you use used it uh Saturday morning and last night multiple times is intimacy that what uh God has offered in Christ um is intimacy different from again just trivia or connection. You know, if in my closest relationships, all I know is a bunch of facts about the person, that's one type of relationship, but it is not intimacy. It's not deep love. >> Um, and I think that's true in our political moment that we're in. Um, and I think it's true society because we are connected more than we've ever been connected and yet loneliness is higher than it's ever been. >> Yeah. So there seems to be a deeper um exactly what you've said, a deeper love that's lacking. Can you speak to that idea of intimacy that um I know in the Celtic tradition uh we've already named there's this intimacy with creation, intimacy with God and God's revelation. >> Can you speak to speak to that a bit?

>> Yeah. And may maybe a good way into it is to remember as we were doing yesterday morning and last night that one of the most cherished images in the Celtic stream of wisdom is the image or the memory of John the beloved as it was said leaning against Jesus at the last supper. And in um in much legend uh it is said that that that relationship between um Jesus and the beloved disciple was was a relationship of great intimacy. And um and in the Celtic world the beloved disciple is is known as John. But um I was indicating I think last night that some New Testament scholars are very importantly arguing that the beloved disciple was Mary Magdalene. >> Um and I'm entirely in favor of that. Um and in a sense we need both um a male and female image of intimacy with the divine because we are all the beloved and uh and that's how we're being invited to listen um to this sort of intimate presence of the divine uh within us and within one another and within earth and um and I think that that is one of the great yearnings of this moment in time and part of the disillusionment with much of what religion has become because we've often defined um oh what is it to be a Christian oh a Christian believes certain things about God um I don't think there's any re deep desire for propositional statements about God I think that the uh the deep yearning of the human spirit is to know the divine And the way the Bible speaks of knowing is the way lovers know one another. It is it is with their entire being. It's not just um you know certain statements about God. And uh and so that that yearning is a very uh um sacred yearning and I think at the moment it's particularly taking us in the direction of wanting to know the sacred in earth and as I I've been trying to say this weekend always uh a true reverencing of earth leads to a true and deeper reverencing of the feminine. And I think the neglect of earth, the subordination, exploit exploitation of earth has often gone hand inhand tragically with a subordination of the feminine and and the place of of women in leadership and women's wisdom.

>> Yeah. And I think that um that connection once you you kind of pull that thread, you see this disconnection from the feminine, disconnection from the earth, disconnection from our own soul and our own being. Um I mean we kind of see the the consequences of all of that every day. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I wonder uh so we can turn to a bit of hope in the midst of that. Um what do you see are the first steps towards kind of reclaiming that inheritance that we've talked about the um the revelation written on our heart.

>> I think um uh some of the first some of the first important steps for each one of us is to continue the practice or to deepen the practice and maybe to rediscover the practice of inner inner listening. Uh I find uh in my own life that that sort of half hour after I wake uh and and I I I practice um meditative prayer every morning when when I wake and um I I know that's part of my well-being. And I suppose in the in the early days, you know, um 150 years ago when I was a young very young man, um I I might have thought, oh, you know, there's too much on my plate today. I have too many things to do. I'm I'm going to I'll negle I'll I'll forget about half hour of silence. Um because I'm so important. I've have many things to do. Uh, and I discovered pretty quickly that the day went downhill. Uh, if if if that's what I decided to do. So, for me, it it's no longer a question. Um, that's that's what I do. And I know it it is it is as essential to my well-being as as having some food in the morning as well. And so, uh, I think that's an important way. I think we're all sort of wonderfully different and unique. So, um, it's important that we find our our own way into that inner listening. Um, you know, some people will will ch will choose very simple methods of stillness and and sitting in stillness. Other people will find it more um important and deeply renewing to be to be walking um to be walking in one's garden or walking in the local park or um to combine those two two texts as it were text of earth and and the inner text. Some people will find it very important to to use scripture that the little book um and and you know many people are rediscovering the ancient wisdom of lexio deina just taking a a phrase from scripture and repeating it uh as as a mantra almost and using that to illuminate again or to enable us to read the inner text. So, I I think that um that's that's right at the heart of of a vision for change that I think if we're not doing that individually and then finding ways to do that together, we're going to undermine um our our real our real place of strength. Because the the place of strength is is is that sort of inner place of the divine essence within us. And then um and then I think it's important to ask how that inner listening uh relates to wisdom that has come down. And one of the things I'm very committed to is to as a sort of um historian in training, I find it really important to to pay attention to to great prophetic voices of the past and to allow those to sit in relation to what what I'm hearing, what we are hearing now. And then to translate that that realm of of study um awareness and inner listening uh to translate that always into action. Uh and um our little foundation earth and soul is committed to study spiritual practice and compassionate action. And I see those three as as intimately interrelated. And if we don't do if we don't um faithfully try to follow uh what we're hearing of the way of love and the wisdom that is being passed down if we don't translate it into action uh then I think we also undercut the the whole realm of inner listening um because those three are given to to flow in relationship.

>> Yeah. uh preaching professor of mine in seminary said to imagine while you're preaching that someone's standing in the back pew with a cardboard sign that says so what. And so that idea of um and again it Paul says it, you know, we can be the smartest person, we can have the best um prayer practices, we can do it all, but if we're not acting out of love, then it's it's useless. Um so I love that focus on on all these things. I think something you said uh last night uh resonates now with this um as we're talking about what practices people might want to take on. Um, you talk often about the the heart of Celtic Christianity being that God is not calling us to be something other than who we are, which is something I've kind of received from our culture and even from some Christian voices that um the call is to be different, to be better, to be more disciplined, to be something um something other than the person I currently am. Um and so I think a suggestion for if we're talking about prescriptions for practice would be um what is a practice or a time where you feel fully yourself where you can be reminded of who you are and I think that's you said you mentioned anamara I think one of the blessings of a soul friend is not that you feel called to be like them but that you feel called to be more fully yourself in their presence. Um, and I think that would be uh from your conversations this weekend, that would be some suggestion. If if you're thinking of a practice and it feels really foreign to you and feels like you're putting on maybe an itchy sweater that doesn't quite fit, that might not be your practice. Um, because God is not kind of calling us to suffer in the name of connecting with some foreign deity. >> Yeah. >> But instead to come home to ourselves. Um, yeah.

>> Yeah. And just to sort of build on that a bit more, I think I am being called to be more than what I am today. >> Um but I but I think that what I'm being called to do is to come more deeply into relationship with that uh unique essence of of the divine >> in me. And and I think the the ways in which I'm not living out of that uh true depth have have sometimes been superimposed by what religion has told me I need to be or what culture has told me to be or what the state has said I should be. Um so I think we are being called to uh into into more and more uh growing but it's to do with that that sort of inner uh unique image of the divine that is in each one of us um and and to know that each one of us um has utterly uh a unique an utterly unique expression of the divine to bring. And that's not to puff ourselves up and to claim uh it's to say that that we are truly each unique expressions of the divine and even in how we think about one another and how we look at one another and how we speak and how we act. Um we are each here to do a very unique uh offering or expression or utterance of of the divine from from deep within ourselves.

>> Yeah. Well, we're nearing the end of our time. Um, unfortunately. >> Yeah, >> I know the time has has flown. So, I have a couple practical announcements and then I'd like to ask you to um to give us some final thoughts and perhaps a blessing. >> Yeah. >> Um for our congregation. Uh following this, uh John Phillip will be in the green room, which is right up those stairs. So, if you just go out the door and up the stairs, you'll find it. He'll be signing books and books will be available for purchase um there. Uh and I have to make our kind of shameless plug for what's going on in the center for well-being and care that connects with all of this work. So every Monday we gather at 10:30 in the contemplation room uh for what we call simple presence which is centering prayer um a time of contemplative uh listening to the voice of God within um in a small group. So if you've never done centering prayer before and you're curious uh come join us on Monday mornings. Um, we also have our soul care curriculum which we've just unveiled. The first session of soul care 101 will be on November 2nd uh at the 10:00 hour in the center for wellbeing and care. And uh now that you've seen this, I mean John Philip, you're one of the original sources for anything that I ever say about contemplation and sacred practice and all of it um comes from you. So, if this resonates, that's what SoulCare um and the next few uh months and years of that program will look like. It's all about connecting with the presence of God that is already within you um as a unique manifestation of the divine. >> So, with that, I want to turn it over for um maybe a final word uh to the congregation and and a word of blessing.

>> Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for being here. I love dialogue and um uh one of the the great things about dialogue is that when you're asked something in a situation like this, you you just have to open your mouth and uh and and sometimes you can be surprised by by what comes. So, thank thank you for so uh lovingly and skillfully um enabling this conversation to be a shared one. Yeah, thank you. I think I'd like to sort of end where we began. Um you asked about my inheritance, uh about what sort of tradition I came out of and um I received deeply from from um my inheritance. And my father was a minister. Uh, and I grew up often hearing him uh, recite that um, priestly blessing as it's sometimes referred to. It's thought to be the oldest blessing that comes down to us in the Judeo-Christian world. The the Lord bless you and keep you. That that one. And um so I I grew up hearing my father speak words those words of blessing to his community. Um whenever I would uh you know head off to university or wherever he would speak those words of blessing. And um then in the last year of his life he he entered um uh a time of dementia uh in which all sorts of things um were lost or uh he couldn't find expression for them. But he never forgot that prayer of blessing and uh he would give it to everyone all the time. It was great. I mean, I would go into the the home that he was in and he'd be at a table with maybe three or four other people and then there'd be, you know, maybe 20 other tables with three or four people. And he'd, you know, finish his food and then he'd say to the people at at the table, "Excuse me, I I need to bless the people now." And he would go from table to table and bless and people just loved it. uh and let's remember that to be made of God is to be made uh with this capacity to bless >> and it doesn't always need to be with words. Very importantly um it needs to be in other ways as well but words um I think carry great can carry a great depth and and energy and passion. So, I'd like to finish with uh the words that I always heard my father say. Yeah. To to all of you.

The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. Amen. >> Amen. Thank you, gentlemen. >> Thank you. Thank you.