Tony Fadell Unfiltered on Apple, OpenAI & the Next Big Device

Apple has never done marketing [ __ ] before and I saw that was complete [ __ ]. >> I mean, do you think OpenAI goes bankrupt? >> Look, if they're asking for $50 billion now, like how fast you going to burn through that? >> Is that what you would focus on if you were a Apple CEO? >> I have many things that I would do if I was. >> All right, give us some of them. Is the next big tech device a pin, a pin, your headphones, or the device that you've already got in your pocket? Today's guest is Tony Fidel, godfather of hardware design, who brought some of the most important consumer electronics to life at Apple and then at Google with Nest. I sat with him and got his thoughts on how Apple and the rest of the big technology companies are looking, even as he's rumored to be a contender for Apple's next CEO. We talked about what he would do if he ever got that top job. We talked about why he thinks Open AI is building a strategy of being too big to fail and all those unfiltered thoughts without the constraints of a corporate PR department. This is the newcomer podcast. Uh Tony Fidel, great to have you on the podcast. Thanks for joining me. >> It's great to be here. Great to be here. >> We're in an insane moment uh for the future of devices. So I'm super excited to talk to you. It's uh pins pens like what do we what do we want? So I really want to get direct into it. I mean there are rumors I think this week that Apple is thinking about a pin in the wake of Humane working on a pin. There's I have you know friends and I think there's been some reporting now that maybe Johnny IV and OpenAI are thinking about a pen. I'll I'll try and press you on what you think about the particulars, but like from first principles, what do you think is most likely to be the AI native device format? >> AI can be applied to many things. >> Yeah. >> And AI is great for certain applications with certain hardware components around it. Okay. >> So there's AI with a screen and there's AI without a screen. In all cases, it needs to have audio, right? Um, but what AI needs mostly is it needs context. >> Okay. >> Okay. So there you have to look at the input side and you have to look at the output side. >> So first let's talk about the input side. >> The more context you give any kind of LLM and I'm not saying they're the panacea, there's going to be lots of models beyond LLM. I want to make sure I'm very clear and I'm not the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's we're going to get AGI with it. It's all [ __ ] [ __ ] as far. So um you first start with the input and if we know everything and you've been hearing about over over the year two years so fast here now it's like we've been hearing about context windows and context windows getting longer and longer and longer and then now we're ragging all your data and and and Gemini just announced yesterday that you can bring in all of your Gmail and and all your Google photos and and G Drive. >> I know I feel like I'm being reckless. I've connected everything to anthropic already. It's like, yeah, search through my email. Go for it. >> Right. Exactly. And so the more context the better. So there's one which is context about what you've done, >> right? >> Okay. And that's, you know, and that makes it better. But then there's the context of what you're doing, right? >> And knowing that really, really clearly. And so what you want and you know what your your smartphone has is you want to know your and just like advertising and all the other you know websites and social wanted before it's no different. >> They wanted your location. They want to hey they would love your audio all the time. They want your camera all the time. They they want what you're typing who you're nearby. what Wi-Fi networks and Bluetooth things are there and what other devices around you >> and and and what even what time of day what's the what's the lighting you know what's the weather are you indoors outdoors why is that the more context you have in the in the in the moment combined with what it knows about you and what's around you in the moment >> you don't have to ask it when you make a query whether that's a voice query or a text query or whatever the query might be it knows it's like oh you are at this place at this time around these people with these resources with this kind of weather but and you when you ask a short question >> it's like bing as opposed to back in the Siri days and the Alexa days you had to tell it everything because it had no context >> so in this case the better the interface becomes the more >> historical context as well as real time context It has to be able to so it's like we know what we're doing right now. I can I can briefly say two words to you and you probably understand like oh look at that plant over there. You know what I mean? Something like that. That's what it needs to know to be able to give you much quicker answers like it's in the room. >> But do you buy like do you think most humans will ultimately want some AI to have access to their current audio? Like do you think that is something that needs to be >> I think I think there's obviously use cases for that and also for video. I I don't see and all the other all the other sensor suites for sensor fusion out there to make it work. So in certain context in certain applications you'll want to do that. Certain people be no way. You know people put the tape over their laptop cameras and everything else. So it's just it's going to be an individual preference on what it is. You know I remember the glass hole days of you know Google Glass. We're like you're not recording me and now we're running with meta glasses. So it's all a social context awareness thing where you know it it's not just about when the technolog is ready. It's about when a particular segment of society is ready to adopt it. I remember this from my general magic days when we were making the iPhone 15 years too early. you know, nobody knew the problems we were solving because they didn't have those problems, right? >> But the idea of like a pin type device is that mostly would you buy is there a pin type device in this? >> Sure, there's a pin type device. >> There's also a pin type device now. It's called plaude. But is that trying to solve the social problem of saying I'm recording? Like why can't the phone just do the recording? We already have it with us. >> Okay. So, so first we were talking about the input, I want to talk about the output, right? And then there's the form. Okay. >> Okay. So, let's talk about input. Now, we'll talk about output. Then we'll talk about forms. Okay, >> I know you want to talk about pins, >> but let's talk about output. >> So, there's really great times when you have, and this is what, you know, I really experienced when I was working with Google Glass and these kinds of things. >> Output is really important in very contextual ways. So, if you're on the move, you're going I see people out here walking into, you know, in New York walking into polls and stuff because they're sitting here looking at their thing or they're on their bike, you know, doing it or driving worst case. So, and they're all distracted from that. And and a lot of times you just want audio and you want to have a much better audio interface, right, versus a a display. But the best way to represent visual information is visually, right? You know, we've heard people trying to communicate, you know, I'm changing this this schematic or whatever, and they say, I'm going to change this and this and they're like, huh? And you just send them a drawing. They go, oh, now I get it. Yeah. Right. So, >> you have to understand the context you're in and what's what's the best way to represent that output. Okay? >> Is it visually? Is it audited? It could be like vibrations, it could be many different ways. And so when you start to break down the applications, you start to and the co and the environment you're in like are you in your office? Are you in your home? Are you walking? Are you in a bus? Are you in a train? Are you in a plane? Whatever. >> And then you start to understand the applications and the ways of representing that output that make sense in that given >> situation. for output. I understand like AirPods or earphones as an output device for AI. I don't I guess part of why I was limited in the thing is like the pin and the pen format I don't see what the output is. Like to me they mostly exist as >> input. You hit the nail on the head. You absolutely and that's my that was my next point which is the form. Okay. And so what's going on with a pen, with a pin, with whatever in the case of let's say it's a pen at OpenAI because that's I've heard the same things and I also know some people working on things like that there used to work for me. >> You think it's a pen? >> So and I also worked with Johnny a long time for a decade, right? So I think I understand it and I probably think it's something like a pen, but it can also be glasses and other things. But given Johnny's predisposition for how he has to do something very different, right? >> So, he's got to do that because he'll have some story around it's got to be a pen and maybe it'll be like the notto pen. Do you remember the notto pen? The notto pen actually had like a pad of paper and you could just it was like a digital pen. You just write on paper and the notto would keep all of the the things and it would then create a PDF of that thing that you could then you know do stuff like that. how AI is bringing us back to our humanity. >> Of course, it's there's going to be this whole big flowery, oh my god, we're getting away from the phone and blah blah blah and and and all that diarrhea. So, what really happens though is that the reason why it has it's it's a pen for a story. Okay? But it doesn't have output, right? >> Because at the end of the day, the best form of output is the thing you already have with you, which is your smartphone, >> right? >> Okay. It does the best visual output. You're not going to carry yet another screen. You might have a couple of LEDs or a very very tiny thing on whatever this other thing is for status or whatever, >> but it's not going to replace the phone. It can't replace. That's was the the [ __ ] thing of humane. We're going to kill the phone. It was like that was the stupidest marketing message I've ever heard cuz you're not going to kill it. >> So, you have to be a companion to it. just like AirPods, just like uh Apple watches, it's a companion to a phone, >> right? >> So, the reason why it's in this form factor is because they need all the sensor suites. Why do they need the sensor suites? Because Apple's not going to give them access to them on the phone. >> So, they just don't want to be disintermediated by Apple. No, no, no. They're saying you have to get the device because they need to get all the context to get all the realtime input so they can feed it back to the servers to give you the because all the security of Bluetooth security, video security, the dots, all the GPS coordinates >> when they >> you have to ask Apple for permission and and the user permission for outlets things, you go, "Oh my god, they're hyperttracking us, right?" as opposed to it's one network link whether it's a Bluetooth or Wi-Fi thing you know is most likely Bluetooth to your device that then does goes back to the network it's one thing yeah I'm just connecting like my headphones but it's got GPS everything else in it so it's just sucking up all your context and throwing away and getting rid of all those privacy concerns >> you see so it makes it real simple and people go oh yeah it just does it and you don't understand it's sucking everything it possibly can suck right >> to get back to open AI to get around all the restrictions. >> If you're an AI true believer, you want all the you too sort of want it to have all the context you have. If you're you if we start to have a relationship with our own chatbot where it's like I really depend on you. I want you to know what I'm doing. You don't feel this impulse that it's sort of the deficit isn't it's lack of context on what I'm doing and that it would be you don't feel that way. >> You're an early adopter, >> right? But do you feel >> most of the world most of the world isn't most of the world is like what the [ __ ] are you doing with my data? Right. >> Right. So, am I I'm >> I am a I'm a late early adopter. >> Okay. >> I have learned how these products are made. I've watched this stuff, >> right? >> I didn't adopt IQain. I knew how bad it was because when I had the first meeting when they were four people, I was like, "This thing's going nowhere." The same thing happened with various other devices. I'm like, "I don't have time for this crap. I I Same thing happened with Rabbit. I was like, "What is this thing?" Met with Jesse. I'm like, "Nah." So the the the issue is is you you want to be a late enough early adopter, not so crazy that you're just wasting your time. So I'm on that side. So and then I also look at all the data stuff because I'm also pretty wise and I know how these this this this data stuff is used >> and I'm I'm in between. Yeah. You know, you you just said you have a your first child, a daughter, right? Just your first child. >> Yes. Three and a half months. >> Congratulations. Thank you. >> I remember a marketked way difference in the way I thought about the world before I had kids and after I had kids. And most of these founders that was including Larry and Sergey and and Mark Zuckerberg, all those guys >> think about the world before they had kids, before they were married in a very different way. I want everything all the time. I'll give away all my privacy. I don't I don't care what happens with all this data. As soon as you have kids and you start hearing about defects and you start hearing about social engineering and you start hearing about all this other stuff, you start changing your view on how much data you want sucked up, >> right? >> Okay. And what how you're being protected. And there's a very and I know for a fact because I worked with these guys, some of these founders that they think about the world differently and they wish they would have made a some different moves, >> right, >> and different decisions early on. >> Yeah. and and would like to go back but they can't. So I'm just saying you know going back on your data thing it's very different depends on your journey you know it's for my daughter we have tiny beans which is you know like a private so you know app just for our family so I can see you start using products differently >> in terms okay so if the pen is really an end run around the control of the iPhone why would Apple need a pin like they they have the iPhone how does that story >> oh because you might be on the device using it might be also a lot of times you don't want to have the device there in the middle because you're saying I'm like it's it can also be ambient all the time because your thing's going to be in your pocket. So there is there are some like the form of having this other thing that if you choose to wanted to watch it cuz we've watched these life recorders before you know 10 years ago there's these life recorders. >> This is just another form of that. >> That's how it gets positioned. It's like don't forget any moment. >> Yeah. You know Plaude's doing that now with their their voice one and this one. >> I actually don't know that one. Plaude's out of the UK and it's it's you know granola. >> Yeah. Yeah, of course. >> It's basically Granola but as a wearable. >> Are you an investor or >> in? >> No, I'm not. Okay. You just brought it up so I didn't >> No, no, no, no, no. I'm I'm not an investor. >> Um, do you buy that Apple's working on a pin? >> I'm sure I hope to God they're working on something, >> you know? They need to be working on a little bit, but knowing their chip, their chip expertise, Johnny Suji and the team, they're incredibly awesome. knowing the mechanicals, knowing that they've made the watch. >> Right. >> Right. And they're making, you know, uh the air the tracker, all the other stuff. They have Sorry. >> You know, the the the Apple Air Tag. >> Oh, yeah. >> They have Air Tags. They have all this really really miniature custom silicon that and all the AirPod um custom silicon. >> They can make one of these things really easy compared to anybody else because they have all the expertise to make an incredible piece of hardware. They have to get the software right, but the hardware, the connectivity, they have their own network stack. They could make a an awesome one because they have all the camera technology, too. So, I it it would either it's going to be something you sit on the desk or you wear and you sit on the desk or whatever. It's like duh. It's like or you build it into your, you know, into your uh AirPods Pro. Like imagine cameras coming out of your AirPods. >> You're using could or it's like where how how much do you expect Apple to deliver? I guess you know, you're talking to somebody. I'm deep in the Apple ecosystem. my laptop, AirPods, watch, phone, cell, but then they the I think I bought the phone that was sold on AI and it's one of the most egregious misleads perhaps in ever marketing. >> When I saw AI first laptop, AI first phone, >> I was ready to tweet something that was like really really nasty and I pulled back because I'm like, you know, it's it's it's >> Apple has never done marketing [ __ ] before and I saw that was complete [ __ ] right? you know, and I was like I was holding back. So, you know, >> uh hopefully they're finding new religion and going back to the old real smart days, which is underpromise and overd deliver. >> What do you think they can do well right now? And what do you think is holding them back? >> What can they do well right now? Oh, chips, uh low-level software devices. It's really really you know you know app Apple Vision Pro is an abject failure but it's an incredible technical marvel from a techn technology point of view. So they can make great stuff. It's do they have the product chops like they used to to be able to create the full stack create the incredible user experience and deliver all those pieces of the puzzle in the middle necessary to pull it all together. And that's the thing that you know has been really important for the reason why Apple is where it is today. To what extent do you think just the underlying capability of AI is holding Apple back, right? Like for a great user experience, you want sort of the 100% case, right? A lot of people talk about some of the, you know, catchy BT capabilities. It's almost like the self-driving 90%. Like, you know, it can do most of what you want, but then the more you drill into a problem, the more you start hitting problems. And so if you're trying to set up these consumer loops where it's like every time I step into my house, you do this and the AI gets it right 90% of the time. Can Apple be expected to deliver that consumer experience that people want? >> Well, the very first thing to understand is LLMs have fundamental problems, >> right? >> They have fundamental problems and that's and in in the way they're created and that's why they hallucinate. And unless they're descoped and they're really trained on very very contextually specific information like medical or legal or you know what or general consumer stuff instead of these incredibly huge models that can hallucinate because they don't know whether you're talking medical, legal, whatever. It's it tries to be a know-it-all. You would never hire a know-it-all in the real world. We can't stand, >> right? I admit what I don't know and chbt never says. always give you an answer and it doesn't know whether it's right or wrong. And so, you know, we're invested in various companies in the medical domain like Knobla and other things that have very very specific context and very very specific guard rails for what they will do and what they will answer and they will not answer stuff. It's when you're trying to make these general purpose ones, that's when it's a problem. So, so getting back to the the LLM specifically, if Apple has very very specific models for consumers in certain contexts, it can work really well. It's when you apply these very very >> broad models and you don't know what's going to come out, then that is where the problem is. There's still models and other things beyond LLMs, even highly contextually constrained LLM, trained LLMs that are coming that are going to get get around a lot of those things. But right now, everybody's blah blah blah LLMs, AGI, bigger and bigger models, which I think is [ __ ] >> What's coming? >> Um, well, there's world models coming, right? So, world models combined with LLMs. So that's understanding physics, understanding chemistry, all this stuff that we know because there are real rules, mathematics around those things. You know, today chat GPT can't even draw a face of a clock, right? Or understand what a clock says because it doesn't graphically sing. It's easy for us for a graphical clock, not a digital one. >> And so it's like though that a world model would go, "Oh, that's a graphic. I'm going to use this model. It, you know, this is how it works." You would build that stuff into models tools where it says for this question you you go off to this software or this technique to solve something. >> Yeah, absolutely. And then the language model is good for what the language model is good for as opposed to trying to think it reasons about chemistry >> because it doesn't have a real basic chemistry model. When we started this conversation, I think you were saying, you know, audio and voice is sort of at the core of what AI wants to consume. Where or maybe is that fair or I mean clearly listening to everything we're doing is part of what these devices we've talked about want. Where Yeah. Where do you think about sort of the AirPods and earbuds in terms of the AI device story? Well, you know, I I I there's there's edge devices which are AirPods and and and you know, and phones and these kinds of things. I think of the edge of the edge first. >> Okay. >> So, the edge of the edge is the very very fringe of like are you speaking a word? How do I do noise cancellation? How do I do speaker focusing? Those kinds of things. >> There is AI that can do that stuff really well. Your ear does that. You do that. You turn your head. focus. So we can apply AI into each of these >> at the edge of the edge devices to do much better intelligence to help us >> be able to filter out noise from >> right to do the devices core task. >> Oh the the very basic task of se separating signal from noise whether that's visually or or or auditorially or other things of that nature. So we need to get there. Um so that's the first level of AI applied. Then there's the AI above that which is labeling, interpretation, those kinds of things and that can be done on device in some cases or it'll be done with a companion. It's which would most likely be your smartphone. So that's another set of AI. Then there's another one on top of that which is like okay what's the reasoning? Let's make let's get the context and then figure out what's going on. So there's all these levels. Yeah. And we need to break down the AI and levels just like your brain has many different different uh you know uh centers in your brain to do this this this this. You're going to start seeing AI >> becoming much more diverse and not just one big thing. And we're seeing that with self-driving cars already, >> right? >> I know. We're all over the map. >> No, I know. I love it. To some degree the AI wave creates uh this broken thinking because you have companies that have that want to justify valuations so they need to sell something and they have the story which is AI and so in some ways I'm complicit in what they're doing which is like think from the need for an AI device >> out rather than like some human problem and then sort of build the device correct up and that's why this conversation ends up being chaotic because we're shifting between >> from the technology to the It's like we're in search of a but but don't you think there is this moment to sell the consumer on a new device they've heard about this technology they're they're sort of open to adopt a new sort of way of behaving and so people are searching for what what what device can we get deliver them in this >> to me these devices a pin a pen or whatever are enablers they're not a solution right >> and where we were going was I was saying that we need more contextspecific LLM drug the so that consumers can get a a reliable experience. Yeah. Without hallucinations. What that means is you have to come up with the applications and constrain the application to better understand what it is you want. It's not just a know-it-all that's going to go and try everything. So when we when you switch into certain applications, you want that because why? At the end of the day, we're not where we want to be. It's not we're not at her yet. Everybody wants her, >> you know, the the thing, but we don't have the technology yet. So we have to creep into it which means application more application specific context specific LLMs for given workflows and not just it's a general anything device >> okay and so so we're going to see much it's like kind of web 1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0 You know, we've had to make these leaps because we have to have the technology to move along with it. >> But we we had Siri many years ago. We've had Alexa. Like do you think we're still far away from the sort of voice communicated personal assistant that people talk to to engage with a computer? >> Yes. Because why? What I see is you're going to have your federation of your devices. That's going to be everything for your laptop, your TV, your game machine, all the things you carry on you or watches, whatever it is. You're going to have that. Then you're going to have a smart agent in the background really understanding which device you're on, which users you're and all the data and all the context and then be able to switch how it's working based on those things. Today, what we're saying is put everything on a device and it's going to work or put all the sensors here and put all of the the the smarts in the cloud and it's and everything else is just dumb in between. >> Right? We're going to build into this much more multiple AI world where edge of the edge, the edge devices, the federation of edge devices, and the cloud all work together to produce the her application we're hearing that we would love to have, but we're just not going to get there today from what everyone's telling you, you know, >> just because of the capability of LM. >> Yeah. Because we're just not we don't have the world models. We don't have the sensors. When you look at these humanoid robots, everyone's like, "Oh, they do flips and tricks and everything." >> Great, we can do that. But we don't have the necessary sensing and actuation necessary to be able to get the data to be able to, right? And they need world models tool to do what anything like a humanoid stuff that people are hoping it'll do. Remember, self-driving cars came out in the late 2008, >> right? >> We're just there now, >> right? No, it's great, >> right? And we've spent billions and billions and we're now getting and it's just getting rolled out and there's still $300,000 cars with massive sensor suites and compute >> and those are massive edge devices plus a a whole set of of coordination in the cloud. Right? >> So that's what we need to do and we need to do it at a very cheap level and battery efficient level and right and it's going to take time to get there. >> Right. What is the state of the smartome today? Or what okay take I know we're talking the big device questions here like and it fits into this AI conversation but like what is your read on just >> the success or failure of building you know smart home devices. >> Okay. I'm going to build a a remodel of a big new smart home thing for myself. So I'm you know I'm tracking the very latest and now I'm not in it like I used to be. So, >> does that include custom devices or you're just sourcing the best stuff that exists? >> Well, I'd say that there there's the best of what exists is from the device side, but then there's custom ways of putting it all together. It's like what we just talked about the self-driving car thing. You have to and when I'm designing this thing, I have to think about the devices, the low-level network, the application level network, what's in the server, what's in the cloud, like and it's still very very difficult if you want to pull off what again the smart home that the Jetson smart home that we all think about. >> Is that what you're trying to get? >> Yeah. And I just know better. Like I'm like, okay, I'm going to wire everything and make sure I have thread border routers in the necessary places. >> What are the main things you want the house to be able to do? Oh, right now just the simplest things like I have a you know the the in in in this case I have a um a self-playing piano. >> Okay. >> Right. So I'm I'm I'm pumping MIDI into it. >> Okay. So I pump MIDI and I pump songs from the net or from locally MIDI into it to then it selfplays and then it has it's miked and the mics are then a toded into a Dante audio network which then distributes all the way through the entire house or whatever zones I want >> through Dante into all of these >> uh Dante amplified speakers around the house and the Sonos can pump in and so I can have a player piano and the keys are pressing, right? >> The keys are pressing. So, it's an analog piano getting digitally recorded and streamed all through the house. >> Pressing the key. Is it like an It's not an old school player piano or it is >> No, no, no. It's a modern pre It's a modern regular grand piano, but it has actuators on it. Okay. >> And and it plays um it plays the songs just as it cuz they record it from a professional. So, it's like you have a concert pianist with you. And then and then you're and you're ming it and then you're amplifying it and playing it throughout the house. So it feels like you have a concert pianist in the house. >> Executed on that yet or is this still a dream? >> Oh no, we're it's in it's in the mix and it it can work. It absolutely can work. But then there's all the switching to make the Sonos move from one thing to another and how do and which zones did the this the player piano go to to the >> Right. >> And are you like a speaker head? Like do you have the sort of fancy old school speakers or you're using like Sonos? >> Well, no. I I'm using Sonos ports to to get the house two amplified speakers for certain either >> in ceiling speakers without you don't see the grills. you in some cases I don't like them but there's some cases in certain wet locations you need the grills and other things where it's l acoustics like Dolby Atmos okay you know whole thing and you have to worry about all those levels of networks to make all that stuff work >> you know got AC you got AEC there's so many different things I have >> um plus I also have full lighting so there's uh DMX lighting control like you do on stages >> um there's also So, uh, the MIDI over Ethernet and everything runs over Ethernet. So, it's MIDI over Ethernet, uh, uh, lightning control over Ethernet, Dante over Ethernet, uh, lighting control over Ethernet. Right. Right. So, it's it's a full-on, >> you know, next generation system. >> Anything else? Your smart home. >> Well, it's going to have Thread, of course, cuz we did we >> What is Thread, sir? >> So, Thread, we in we had basically invented it at Nex and now Thread is the >> Bluetooth equipment. uh equivalent for mesh networking for entire house. So it mesh networks an entire house for low- speed data and control very very low latency. So you can do light switches, light bulbs, you know, sensors, everything else that can be battery operated for 10 years, that kind of thing. And it's very resilient. So >> you do anything like mechanical like I don't know are there meals being made in automated? >> There's mechanical lighting and TVs that pop out things the lights drop down. uh robo lights that move, >> right? >> Um yeah, that's the most of the mechanical except mechanical locks and you know in you know and um NFC based uh uh door door locks, that kind of stuff. >> And what do you use for the actual like voice communication with your house? >> That is to be determined. >> It's a bake off or what would you mean? >> Well, nothing's ready yet. Right. Right. So you have to next generation Alexa is not there yet. So it's it's set up that's the next layer on top of all of this infrastructure. The next layer is on top of that and that's TBD at this point. >> But are you typing it? What's what's what's going to happen? You have to make a decision, right? >> No, I don't. >> Why? >> Because >> Well, you're going to have to talk to I What are you going to use? When is this house supposed to be ready to go? >> What are you going to use? You use buttons. Just like cars are taking coming from screens and buttons. >> Right now you're not ready to use voice. >> No, it's cuz it's [ __ ] [ __ ] You have like modules like >> I don't feel like having everyone scream at me and you know and >> turn on the lights. You you don't have any of that. >> No. You know, look, this is the other thing I learned from Smartome, >> right? >> Okay. Is that most people who design the smart home design it for themselves? It's like for single guys. I want one button that does this and one button. And then when you have people over there, >> when you have kids or you have friends over or you have or you have a wife or partner with you and they're like, >> "I don't want that button. I want this button." Everyone has their own one button interface. >> So you have to design and understand >> you're you're just like anything. It's not just you. You have to design this whole world when it's a a shared space, >> right? >> Versus your own AI, you know, her space. It's a very different thing. What I mean, one of the things that's amazing about the devices you guys produced at Apple, obviously they were expensive, but they're fundamentally mass market. You know, it feels like the billionaire phone is the phone that sort of the middle class American is able to afford. I mean, the portrait you're painting is not that, you know, where it's like with the home and and that's sort of like old school electronics. >> That's really crazy, but you can make a bunch, >> right? But how do you think about like sort of getting the home to that that p? is that on some level it's what you want too, which is a device that's made that sort of works that solves some of these problems without the sort of >> I want less screens in my home. I don't want more screens. I hate screens, frankly. I hate screen. I don't want them in the home. So, >> why hasn't the home had that sort of like mass market amazing electronic work yet? >> Oh, because we we're still in the days of like, you know, remember Wi-Fi didn't even exist until 2001, too, right? So we thread just finally got even though it started in 2011 it's just now there we're still building all the base layers and linking everything and then and we're now going to get the LLMs and voice recognition all that stuff to then put it all together right >> but it's still on the verge just like the self-driving car was when this that smart home like that is you got to give it another I think five to six years for what we think of when you think smart home you want it to be I think it's going to be there just set up your home to make sure it's >> what what company do you think is best positioned >> I have no idea it's five six year no because the thing that I learned at Nest was all these sensors and smart plugs and all that other stuff there's no money in it there's absolutely no money in that stuff that's why you go online and you know and that's why there's you know um >> because people are only willing to buy like 20% more expensive >> like I have a switch in my wall anything else and any crazy guy like me doing this other thing, it's just >> not a big enough market. >> It's not a big enough market. So, nobody wants to play in that space >> and so IKEA is finally, you know, to tell you the truth because they're using thread and they're using matter and that kind of stuff. So, IKEA is starting, but it's just starting. It's all nent. So, >> I think that the ones that are going to be successful are the ones who are going to finally deliver the nest vision that we really had. But it's still I you know if I was I would be rebuilding Nest right now you know and and and because in three to four years you can be there to get what we've been talking about that we had the vision for in 2010 111 >> you're you're obviously investing right now but it do you do you still have the entrepreneur bug like do you think you have another great company in you? >> Oh I have over a hundred great companies in me right now I I we you know I invest directly in many many things and I invest indirectly in many things. So I have over hundred companies nowund and something companies where I'm working with them every day. Like today I was working with a company and helping them with Apple. I'm a shadow CEO at a couple of companies. I'm doing product design at companies. So I get to do this in many different domains. >> Does it mean to be a shadow CEO? >> So there's the there's the CEO and then he's like please help me. So I get to be behind I'm like would you think about it this way? operations, headcount, how should we should do funding, product design, and so I have various roles like that where they please help. So I do and I go in and I get to >> A couple companies are spending the most time on right now. >> Uh I'm spending a lot of time with Orionis Biosciences. um they are doing AI drug discovery and we have drugs in uh FDA phase 2 clinical where they're actually working um and helping with the with that. So I'm spending a lot of time I'm not a shadow CEO there but I'm I'm on the board and helping out. I'm um I'm at Menllo Micro. >> Okay. >> Menllo Micro um is a um a MEMS switch. So we have transistors and we have relays. Mems switch sits in the middle and it's an incredible new technology that we've been working on for 10 years. They've been working on it for almost 40 years um to power AI data data centers and robots and all these other things. Um it's a absolutely phenomenal thing and helping with the business development, the product plans, the the strategy, the financing, that kind of stuff. >> Yeah. >> Um let's see, what else am I working with? Uh I'm doing I was just doing some VR work this morning. Oh, really? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Are you a believer in VR? >> I believe in I believe I [ __ ] the metaverse. I believe in VR for episodic B2B and some gaming. Um um but episodic so you're not living in it like you know some people are saying you're going to live in it. It's like no. But where it's collaborative, it's high value and mostly B2B. Sure there's gaming and that's a a fringe. You know it's big but it's still a fringe in from my perspective. but where you're doing design online. So, we're in a company called Gravity Sketch. >> Okay? >> And Gravity Sketch is the number one. Think of it as Figma in the in the VR world where you're doing collaborative design in a 3D space and you can do markups. You can create in it. And we're at all the biggest companies. We're at Stellantis, Nike, the Ford, everybody uses us to do car design, shoe design, furniture design. So, um, so I believe in it for that. So they have teams of people wearing headsets, doing this for an hour or something, getting in it, coming out, you know, or reviewing cars or whatever. And I believe in VR for that for sure. But for most of the stuff that was pitched by, >> you know, Meta and Apple, I don't I don't believe in it at all because I've been working on VR since 1988 and I've seen the issues with it. This is circling back to some of the the big themes, excuse me, some of the big themes of this conversation. Like what company do you think is best positioned to produce like a new iPad scale device? Like someone like what if you had to make a prediction about a company producing a device that reaches our culture at that scale? Who who are you betting on? >> Hopefully Apple makes the iPad phone or the iPhone pad which is basically a foldable iPhone. >> Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Bring the benefits of the iPad to the iPad. >> Yeah. just bring the foldable stuff and you know it's been bandied about and stuff like that but >> you know the the operating system iPad OS and >> stuff new device or >> I I think it's a meaningful segment for Apple to continue to grow and and to make sure that they don't lose market share to people with foldables but I do think there's a lot of use cases where if you can carry with you everywhere and you can open it especially in some cases with AI >> right >> um um that it could be pretty powerful >> right >> right because an iPad you just can't slip in your pocket. You want a pocketable, >> you know, kind of iPad experience >> where you can use voice so you don't need a keyboard, all that stuff to to interact with it. Could be pretty pretty damn cool. >> What um is that what you would focus on if you were a Apple CEO? >> I have many things that I would do if I was >>

All right, give us some of them.

>> Well, give you some of them.

>> Yeah. Um, well, the first thing I think they really flubbed on was mobility. You know, there was the Apple car and we all know that that was a real thing and they killed it. But there's other ways of doing.

>> You think they should have kept going?

>> No, no, no, no. Apple should Apple is a company that redefineses certain it's certain aspects of life. It redefined what it was to be desktop publishing, right? Or publishing in general. It redefined music. It redefined various things. So, they should redefine mobility. Don't make a four-wheel car that competes with everybody else and the Chinese.

>> How would you change mobility?

>> In two, in three, and lightweight four-wheel vehicles?

>> How do you do that?

>> Yeah.

>> That the kids are like at 14 can use and go, I want to keep using it. Right. Don't not a a lucid blah blah blah for just you know you got to think you know when when Steve Jobs and I would walk around the Apple campus back in 20089 we talked about the Apple car what would it be and he was really like we need to do he thought it was revolutionary was the Volkswagen right the the people's wagon the people's car and he was like what's the people's car what's the next generation people's car what's going to be used in the cities and now you're seeing the Fiat Topelino, you see the the Twizzy, you see all these different things. I live in Europe, right? So, you see all this stuff running around and they're selling out like crazy and you're like that Apple or two wheels Apple or three wheels Apple, you know?

>> So, you would say go keep working on that vehicle, work on this vehicle vision.

>> Oh, I I I think that's only one thing. I I think that I think mobility is something that should be addressed and Apple could address it in a very different way than it and has all kinds of brands. This other thing is I think it's a red herring and it's just it's more or less a kind of thing.

>> Frankly, I think that their accessories lineup could go much much they could lean in much more into that. Um, lots of things to be done around that. Obviously glasses.

>> Like more designer or the aesthetic piece of it or?

>> No, no, just usability. No, no, aesthetics. No, no, no, no, no. We're talking about new markets, new things that they could go after.

>> Go after Aura directly.

>> Uh, sure. You know, like duh. Um,

>> Are you bullish on Aura right now?

>> I got one on, you know, to do truth be told. No.

>> No, no. To be truth be told, I was invested in the company before Aura. It was called Motive.

>> Okay.

>> We made the first smart ring.

>> We had all of the patents, all the fundamentals and everything.

>> And the team who was from Apple just wanted to do something other than a ring after they got the ring. I'm like, "Guys, focus on the business." and they're like, "No, we want to make, you know, some other wearable." I'm like, "No, focus on the business." So, they lost it. And then what happened? Aura ended up buying all of our patents.

>> I didn't know that.

>> So, so to me, like we were doing the we were doing it four years before Aura did. And now my team from Nest is the marketing team at Aura, which I love those guys and they're doing great. I just wish we would have Motive would have been it instead of.

>> Is Apple supposed to be thinking about a ring right now or?

>> If they're not? It'd be crazy if they weren't. And it's so easy for them to do. They have all the chip. Like doesn't have chip guys. They don't have all that. They have everything they need to make an incredible ring. Like duh. And they have all the all the the composits for, you know, the materials, everything. Like it is a no-brainer. It's just like the pin. No brainers to do. They have everything they need to they just need to have the gumption to get it out and do it. It's really simple.

>> What are other accessories? Um, I think there's smarter ways of, you know, making a AirPod that has an iPod in it.

>> So, I think they need to bring back the iPod.

>> Okay. I like this because people don't want to have their phone with them all the time.

>> Well, there's two reasons. One is there's the nostalgic value of everybody who got into Apple. A lot of them got in because of the iPod. Right.

>> Right. So, people want don't want the they would like the nostalgic.

>> Be my first Apple device.

>> Yeah. Most people is because at the time of the iPod,

>> 1% market share in the US only not around the world so most people and there was no Apple retail so most people's device because they didn't have a Mac and they didn't buy a Mac because they had a PC so they had to get an Apple device and was most likely an iPod.

>> So iPod from the nostalgic point of view for all those people who's like oh I remember the iPod but they don't want distractions anymore.

>> Right.

>> They want they don't want distractions anyway. The third thing.

>> Sorry, sorry Apple. Who doesn't want distraction?

>> Well, a lot of people want that pure mystery. So, so the music lovers who love.

>> I just bought a record player, so I'm deep in this, right?

>> Did you see what Sony did this week?

>> No.

>> Sony killed their TVs and sold it off to TCL. And.

>> They went back to the turntables.

>> They just released two new turntables. They kill the TVs and they bring back turntables. You tell me. Right.

>> So, is there a nostalgia element for the iPad? I think so.

>> I think that's right. Is the iPad in this vision software or it's a hardware device? You're saying where does it exist? It's what format?

>> It's it I I don't want to give away all my stuff.

>> You're saving the. Has anybody talked to you about it? You know, there was obviously reporting about, you know, the next CEO and your name was, you know, banded about. Has anyone done any feelers or you're like, I got to hold back?

>> I've gotten a lot of incoming. I I I let me I want to just say thank you to those those ex-Apple employees and those current Apple employees who have reached out and have tried to canvas me and try to get me involved. You know, Apple will make the right decision when they need to about who the next CEO is.

>> I love the company. It's been in my blood since 198081 when I had my first Apple 2. You know, it's it's been the thing since since I was 11 10 11. um if anyone calls, you know, from the board or for Tim calls, whatever, I'll be happy to pick up the phone, right? And that's it. I'll I'll help them anyway. They think they could they would like to be helped, right?

>> Um so the accessory, that's a great I'm fascinated by that. Uh.

>> And then there's other things they should do. There's a whole another product category. There's But we'll leave that for later.

>> Okay. Um.

>> We'll leave that for later. What I mean the the found the the the labs the foundation model companies what's your what's your read on open AI anthropic xi I know you want to go there.

>> Yeah, yeah, of course. That's the big technology question of the day. Are they great businesses? I guess that's the first question. Are they good businesses?

>> They have to really target applications to be great businesses. Platforms. Platforms are not businesses. Applications are great businesses. Okay. And that was proven. The last great platform business was Windows 95.

>> You know, or Windows. There's been no platform business other than that. Okay. Um, so you could call maybe AWS or, you know, Google or whatever, but that's a B2B thing. It's not a it's really about applications, not platforms.

>> So, um, so when you look, you stack up.

>> OpenAI, Google, Anthropic, you know, Mistral, you can pick, you know, whoever is, and then let's talk about the Chinese and even the Koreans and stuff like that. Um, look, there is a point and Dario is doing a great job at Anthropic turning it into a real business.

>> Right.

>> And coding because it's so language focused is an incredible application for an LLM.

>> Right.

>> And we're seeing that, right? It's just crazy with now their, you know, their non-coding version of it of Claude as well as the coding version. I'm using it now. I'm playing. I'm like, "Oh my god,

>> I'm getting back into coding. I haven't done coding in years.

>> I'm not a coder, but I Yeah, I got the desktop version. It's a little I feel like I don't have files, so I'm a little confused as a user that I have stuff on Google that I want them to use, which I think I need to use in their web browser stuff. I mean, these are.

>> I must say look I must say that they have a whole set of application stuff and training because it still feels like it's a GitHub model for Claude like it's very giddy and that's.

>> And if you look at if you look at that it's a very small number of people they have to come from a different way to get people involved and it's still not approachable like I'm like still like confused when I'm using it or when I'm even installing it and trying to run what? Okay, terminal this. Like, how many people do that? There's other ways of getting around that. And they're I'm sure they'll get there. There's just no way they're not.

>> Um, but again, they're doing a great job of really focusing and figuring out that stuff around coding, around that um guard rails, all those things. And they're trying to get to profitability so that they're a real standing business.

>> Right.

>> So, I commend them for all that they're doing. They're, you know, they were ex-OpenAI people, right? And everything and they really are targeting. So that's really great. Then we go to OpenAI. OpenAI right now is spray and prey.

>> Right. Spray and prey. Look, this week they it was rumored and I'm sure it was a very strong rumor. They're trying to reach $50 billion, right?

>> 50 billion.

>> Just a few months ago it was 5 billion and just before that it was 500 million. I don't think unless you've been in the market and understand this is massive amounts of capital that even large Fortune 500s can't get access to. Like.

>> And so what I the game I believe Sam is playing and it's a really dangerous game is too big to fail.

>> Right. He's getting every single person to give them money including large governments and everything else so they're too big to fail.

>> Right. Well, this was the whole Sarah Frier backs stop. Yeah. Yeah. The back that backs stop which is like no no and they're backpedaling.

>> They've written stuff that suggests.

>> You don't think they're not having those discussions at OpenAI like yeah, these governments will back stop us at some point cuz we're going to crash everything. The semiconductors, the, you know, everything.

>> So so I think it's an incredibly dangerous game they're playing and with especially with the circular deals and everything.

>> Um, is there a there there? I believe there's a there there, but Google's going to win it.

>> Right.

>> Google has everything from the chips to the data centers to the the all the way to the applications and tons of data, you know, for all this stuff. I wish they had a better devices team. It sucks there, right? I I'll go on, you know, whatever. Um, but at the end of the day.

>> They have all the things necessary, plus an ad business that can fund billions of dollars a quarter.

>> And distribution, you know.

>> It's just it's everywhere. It's like it's.

>> It's funny. I feel like there's so many AI haters that, you know, they obviously Google things and so then they'll get the AI results from Google. And so I feel like there's or, you know, Gemini is fundamentally delivering the results. So there's this weird world where people hate AI and still use it all the time via Google, which is just.

>> I I I hear what you're saying. You know, there there's this it's more like I I hate what it's going to do to the world. I'm I hate but I it works for me, you know. So I think there's a little dissonance there.

>> But um, but you know, I have to credit Sundar, you know, and the team that they've had an existential crisis and I think they cleaned up the culture enough. I'm sure it's not fully clean but enough to say we have an existential crisis. We're going to get to work. We got to go back. Was too casual and sort of.

>> It was too casual too, you know, if you remember the first things of Gemini that came out. We can't blah blah blah safety in in the MAGA words, woke, right? Too safe and too like, you know, balance. Well, you could, but you could. You're like, come on. All right.

>> So, I So.

>> Do you have a read on whether how much um Sergey really gets credit or what the internal dynamics are there in terms of who's really driving?

>> Oh, I hear a little bit. I don't really want to comment. It's it's it's it's look at the results. The results are sure they fumbled a few times, but they're they're locked in and engaged and they're and so I I have to give them every credit for turning the ship. I, you know, it was a big it's a huge ship at Google, but it feels like it's really going in the direction. And.

>> Sometimes it does take a near-death experience to get the best out of people, right? I say that's the only way you change cultures is through a near-death experience. Do you think they'll innovate or you think I mean they, you know, they wrote the intentional Dennis is amazing. Dennis is incredibly smart and and he was like they were the ones who came up with this first course. So now it's just it's playing a game of catchup but it's a it's it's really David and Goliath. OpenAI might have a lot of cash but they don't have anywhere near the resources. And now today, like here's here's the thing that's really interesting and people don't a lot of people don't realize this is that if you look at where OpenAI is trying to make its money and where Google is making its money today and you say oh and Anthropic is making Anthropic's very applications.

>> Or API, you're saying the API business and coding.

>> Yeah. Well, API and coding, that kind of thing. Then there's um and and they're doing that and they're they're they're going to get there.

>> OpenAI is doing everything like, you know, they're they're picking out, oh, okay, we're going to worry about uh, you know, when they just announced health and then they announced this. They're doing whatever it takes to get more application specific and now they're announcing ads, right? They're doing like again spray and prey to hope to go because people they can get only so many people to pay a hundred $20 or $200 or whatever it is and so they have to get to this ad model to get more revenue to come in.

>> The Chinese are doing this so smart, right?

>> Well, maybe because they don't have the Nvidia chips, but I always like resource constrained environments because you're more creative. So if you look at DeepSeek, if you look at these other things and they're open source. The profits of OpenAI today or not profits I should say just revenues of OpenAI today if those open source models or a meta model.

>> Becomes reality and they're close enough and I know a lot of developers using the Chinese models or other open source models.

>> Right.

>> And if OpenAI doesn't get there at the application side, everything in the middle is gone. They don't have data centers. They don't have anything else on a persistent technological advantage in such a.

>> Correct. What you're going to what I believe you're going to see is application and to infrastructure. That's where it's going to set and in the middle it's going to be just a it's going to be like everyone's got, you know, open this and open that and there's going to be no real money in it and that's why people are saying there's no money in SAS anymore. So you're going to see, oddly enough, infrastructure and scale and application is where the capturing the customer or capturing the platform is going to be.

>> And that's where we're I believe where we're headed and OpenAI is stuck here because they don't have any data. They've been very clear they don't want it but they're not here and you already have Google up here at the apps. You have Claude or Anthropic there and maybe one day Apple up there. So it's pretty.

>> Don't you think like general purpose assistant is an application? I mean to defend OpenAI they have all this context on me, you know, the longer I use it the.

>> Google has much more. Apple has much more.

>> And I'm drifting but that's why they want a device that's why they need all you know these things to sort of have this picture.

>> They need the context. They can't, you know, people are saying they should make a phone, but then they have then it's an Android phone because they don't have enough.

>> Well, maybe they can find more money, but they're bleeding money. The other thing that people don't realize is as they add more capacity as they bring on more data centers, they're all each of those users is more negative money that they have to spend to keep those users.

>> Do.

>> You right?

>> Right. So, as they scale up and they don't have a revenue, well, they're losing more money per user because they're getting more users.

>> It's the old rideshare days.

>> We'll make it up in volume. We're unit economics are negative, but we'll make it up in volume. It's like, no, you won't.

>> I mean, do you think OpenAI goes bankrupt? I look if they're asking for $50 billion now like how fast you going to burn through that?

>> Right. Uh, we haven't talked about XAI. Do you have a view on that?

>> Look, Elon plays a very, very different game.

>> You know, he started with he he started with Tesla, then it was Twitter that turned into X and now Twitter or X is part of Tesla and then he was doing data center stuff and now that's going to be part of Tesla. Now he wants to make. And what I heard latest is is SpaceX is not going to go public. SpaceX is gonna get bought by Tesla.

>> Yeah, that I think I made a prediction maybe on this podcast. Yeah, I think I mean clearly so.

>> He's just rolling up and just becoming a conglomerate.

>> Are you saying oh it's it's sort of house of cards always the next thing? Yeah.

>> Oh no. I'm saying it's house of cards. SpaceX is an incredible business. Incredible business. Tesla would be much better off if Elon didn't do what Elon did a year ago. Right. Um, so that was.

>> Which is like lose focus and go do.

>> Different be in politics and then piss off the world and everyone said I'm not buying that product because you tainted the brand.

>> Right. So the the thing is it's like okay I need money to keep Tesla alive. Right.

>> Okay. I'm going to put SpaceX in raise a bunch of money off SpaceX and make because the Tesla stock's going to come up and so I'll be able to continue to float Tesla.

>> You know what I mean with money, right?

>> So that's how that works. That's he ultimately needs to protect his investors because this whole thing only works if he's like, "Well, he's going to look out for me somehow." You know, he'll acquire Solar City some way. He'll do some deal that the next thing works out and like whatever good idea he has will save the rest. Um, but but you don't but like XAI you don't see as sort of a big part.

>> I think XAI look he's he's going to he's doing what he does with XAI. It can be something you know again. Oh, now we're doing, you know, uh, uh, you know, what is it? Drobing people on like, and then it's like, well, I didn't know. And it's like, now we have three million images of illegal images running around. So, you know, there's this kind of skirting back and forth like, uh, we just play within the gray area of the law and then we pull back. Just like self-driving is going to be.

>> Up and running 10 years ago. And he makes everyone pay, but yet no one gets delivered what they were, right?

>> Right. So he gets somehow gets away with everything of playing just the line.

>> As a leader, you know, we sort of touched on how woke potentially killed Google. Now we're in this sort of like nihilist period. Where do you think tech should aspire to be in terms of having some meaning underpinning what what they're building right now?

>> Well, look, I'm I'm an optimist and I'm also a guy who, you know, maybe I couldn't play in this game because I'm much more of the high moral standards, high ethics, high, you know, uh, when I say you're going to be my partner, you're my partner and we work together on stuff, not OpenAI and I'm going to partner with everyone and we're exclusive, but we're not, you know, that's, you know, that's kind of today's social media data dating scheme, you know.

>> Right. So, so I think that, you know, I don't know if I I always ask myself all the time. I'm like, how would Steve Jobs fare in this environment if he was here?

>> Well, would he? I don't have an answer.

>> Do you think he would be in the White House? You know, you sort of have to.

>> I have no idea.

>> I think Gavin Newsom said something fairly charitable about Tim Cook, which is sort of, you know, he has to he has to play the game. But um, yeah, it's hard to know if Steve Jobs.

>> Would have, you know, I knowing what I know and working alongside him for a decade, I don't think he would have played, but I don't know. That's I I played along, but I don't know.

>> But uh, so no, really, I think that, you know.

>> I think Dario is doing a great job. He got in front of Davos saying, you know, this is BS, this is not right, this is not right. Deis got up and saying LLMs aren't the thing, you know, and there's more to come.

>> So, I think we need more leaders like that because we have too many,

>> You know, people with questionable value systems, running these things and and um, you know, I wish they were there or they were more vocal, right?

>> Because Tim's a great guy, right?

>> Tim's got high high values, you know. Um,

>> I mean I agree with you. I mean Dario, they just Anthropic just released a constitution for flawed where it's like they're being extremely thoughtful and I tweeted something. It's like in a moment of anti-intellectualism here they are it's like let's have some philosophy PhDs academics, you know, think through, you know, within a real principled way like I really admire what they're doing.

>> I think when a lot of investors and a lot of people get burned by this thing that's we're in right now, there's going to be like a lot of naval gazing going oh, you know, what did we do right? What do we do wrong? You're always going to have that Wall Street wolf full of Wall Street mentality and everybody's playing. But I remember that in '989, too, when it all fell out and then great companies like Google really came in to play, right? So, we'll see what happens. I don't know.

>> This this has been a great conversation. Last one, last question. We've touched on a lot of devices. I mean, if you were, you know, I don't know, this smart engineer kid out of college like I want to make my name in devices, like where would you point him or her? like what is the sort of device area that said okay make a bet on this for the next two decades?

>> Understand the application really really well and understand if you even need hardware. See, we have more than enough hardware and all kinds of different things.

>> It's going to be a federation of things with a really smart software thing. So don't think of just mechanical and devices, you got to think system and you got to think federated of devices to really get the next level of what it's going to happen. All this other stuff is all kind of features, not a product.

>> What I know I said that was the last question. I have to like I love my iPhone. I use it all the time. But don't you get we get sick of looking at it or it's like you're looking at the phone too much. Do you think in.

>> In two decades like we're still going to be using like a.

>> Here, we'll just put these in our ears and then and when we put the phone in our pocket, it'll know the context and it'll just start talking to us and then.

>> More listening, less screen time.

>> Yeah. You know, are there going to be different forms? These are these are open ear, over the ear, in ear. The noise cancellation is great. Okay, great. You're going to have the glasses. So, we have enough of the forms. They need to be pulled together with smarter software and better things to get them to do what they need.

>> You know, I'm not saying.

>> What headphones do you use?

>> These are Nothing's. Okay.

>> These are Nothing's. I got the over the ear the over the headphone ones. Yeah. And and also the the opens. I love them. Absolutely love them.

>> Tony Fidel, this has been awesome. Thanks so much for doing this with me.

>> Yeah. Great. Thanks. Thanks a lot, Eric.

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